Glad Newsok put that video up! We covered a great deal of ground in that meeting! Particularly excited about having direction from Council to Staff to let our Committee begin studying the NE Line via the consultants.

UP - you must have soiled yourself when ODOT said they were unaware that the streetcar would run on tracks and be electrified. Are these people (ODOT) even living on this planet?

The reference to he is not the train guy, when reverencing the boulevard going under the tracks, seems like ODOT only has one guy handling all the states rail issues and they do not like to include him on anything that might impact trains.

Since when do you have to be a train guy to understand that streetcar runs on rails in the pavement? How many of us are "train guys?"

It sickens me to see the city making excuses for how pathetic ODOT is. The bottom line is if the city wants this boulevard to be anything other than a trainwreck (sans the rails of course) then the city needs to take over this project immediately, and may have to forgo some of the state funding - but getting ODOT's funding is not worth the risk of having them design this boulevard.

They're wanting a bridge over the Western/Classen/Reno/Exchange intersections. Not only will that squander infill development potential along the boulevard in that area, but it will ruin all of those other streets for development as well. In effect it will keep the development in that area looking like what is there now, which is just not acceptable, especially if you consider what an awesome development catalyst a huge roundabout or traffic circle could be.

Also I would argue that every single one of the highway engineers at ODOT need to be fired. That agency needs to be disbanded before they do more harm to OKC with other projects. My tolerance for dealing with them is already stretched thin by having the Crosstown relocation forced on us and other bad priorities.

I think I read the article but I remember it said the street car will be finished in 2021? I thought it was gonna be up and running in like a year or two!

We're going into engineering and about 4 years out from riding the first section. Writer was sticking to the ADG schedule for the end of the "2nd phase". The reality is the bulk of it is happening much sooner. Don't panic friend. Lol

I have to say that it almost sounds like a few of the Council members had been reading comments here closely before asking questions. They were parroting many of our concerns.

Several of the posters here work very closely with a few, specific Councilors. And yes, several of them read this stuff directly. OKCTALK is often a great "sounding board" for many issues. I do wish we had more contributors/bloggers though. A great many educated people are lurkers. They should sign up and express their opinion. The anonymity of the user names shields consequences. It is a great mechanism wildly underutilized.

Since when do you have to be a train guy to understand that streetcar runs on rails in the pavement? ...

Maybe they just need to call it something other than a streetcar. ODOT hears street and car smushed together and in their minds all they see are vehicles rolling on four rubber wheels.

Is there anything that can be done to express our dissatisfaction with ODOT's current plans? Or do we have to depend on the Council to talk sense into them?

Urban, Betts or anyone else (I posted this over in the linked article but am repeating it here)

I realize that there may be very valid reasons for the route chosen but I would really like to know what those reasons are & what happened as from the previous 100+ pages of the thread, I thought we were headed in a very different direction (no pun intended)...to clarify, this is not an attack on you or your efforts

Why oh why is the Streetcar just barely touching a corner of the Park and NOT going thru the Union Station...this is as obvious as it going to Bricktown and using the Santa Fe station as the Hub.?????

There was also much talk about NOT having double tracked lines or only being separated by a block, to greatly enhance the coverage/number of people served within a certain walking distance????

Riding from one end to the other requires 16 turns?????

Then there is the Boulevard...I noticed several years ago, they kept saying that the Boulevard was going to follow the same path as the old crosstown. The problem then that no one else seemed to notice was that the old crosstown does NOT travel in a straight line. it alters course a couple of times. if you just lower the crosstown to ground level (and they aren't even doing that all the way right now), you are going to have places where the Boulevard is literally within a few feet of existing roads and at odd angles. Why aren't they straightening out the Boulevard????

Several of the posters here work very closely with a few, specific Councilors. And yes, several of them read this stuff directly. OKCTALK is often a great "sounding board" for many issues. I do wish we had more contributors/bloggers though. A great many educated people are lurkers. They should sign up and express their opinion. The anonymity of the user names shields consequences. It is a great mechanism wildly underutilized.

This is exactly why I feel the people we attach (perfect example: SR) are also on this board defending themselves from public criticism. I know many real people behind the usernames, it even surprises me sometime just how impactful this forum has been. I know Pete is delirious.

Why oh why is the Streetcar just barely touching a corner of the Park and NOT going thru the Union Station...this is as obvious as it going to Bricktown and using the Santa Fe station as the Hub.?????

Why would we go down to Union Station? No passenger trains go there and for the foresable future it will continue to be the administrative offices for COTPA. Not exactly a "destination" for most people riding on the streetcar. Plus, we have gone from being a block away on Reno as originally concieved to coming in direct contact with the park itself on the corner. The whole idea is people can walk into the park. The streetcar doesn't need to literally run through the middle of it.


There was also much talk about NOT having double tracked lines or only being separated by a block, to greatly enhance the coverage/number of people served within a certain walking distance????

And we are continuing to do that on the main transit N/S spine. That hasn't changed. The double tracked section on the "south end" of the system are necessray to connect the new Convention Center, Chesapeake Arena, Park, and Santa-Fe Station. The Cox Convention and Chesapeake Arena super-blocks are an obtacle that has to "be gotten around" to service all four key destinations with continuity.


Riding from one end to the other requires 16 turns?????

A rider would experience 16 turns if they rode the streetcar as an amusement ride. Nobody is going to experience 16 turns unless they intentionally ride the entire route. This is entirely reasonable in a downtown circulator as long as the turns are of the appropriate radius. In that way, the experience is not uncomfortable. It is "forced turns, that are diffivult. None of these turns will be "compressed". When we emerge from downtown with other extensions, the system will straighten out and even take on greater speed. But downtown, you have super-blocks and key destinations that have to be served within close proximity.


Then there is the Boulevard...I noticed several years ago, they kept saying that the Boulevard was going to follow the same path as the old crosstown. The problem then that no one else seemed to notice was that the old crosstown does NOT travel in a straight line. it alters course a couple of times. if you just lower the crosstown to ground level (and they aren't even doing that all the way right now), you are going to have places where the Boulevard is literally within a few feet of existing roads and at odd angles. Why aren't they straightening out the Boulevard????

Can't speak on the new Boulevard Design with complete knowledge. Continuing to learn new things about it daily. I would say as though the "curve" you are concerned about is slated to become even more profound as they consider giving the Convention Center additional space.

There was also much talk about NOT having double tracked lines or only being separated by a block, to greatly enhance the coverage/number of people served within a certain walking distance????

One thing that worries me with 'greatly enhancing' coverage replicating our bus problem, we need to keep it to an area we can cover well.

Separating the tracks hardly seems to enhance walking distance, both tracks still have to be in walking distance unless you have a lot of one way traffic.

Guess my eyesight is failing a bit. Where is the most current map of the suggested initial route(s)?

See item VIII. W. on last week's Council agenda:
http://www.okc.gov/AgendaPub/mtgviewer.aspx?meetid=1562&doctype=AGENDA

I'm get so anxious for this project to start!! I CAN'T WAIT UNTIL IT'S DONE!!!! It'll be an awesome showcase for the city if it's done correctly!

I understand that there are many challenges to this (serving tourist needs, a downtown circulator, the 1st step of Mass Trans, connecting Residential, retail and major employers and connecting as many of the MAPS projects (past & present) as possible. Maybe this is the best that could be come up with but on the surface this route seems like a major fail.


Why oh why is the Streetcar just barely touching a corner of the Park and NOT going thru the Union Station...this is as obvious as it going to Bricktown and using the Santa Fe station as the Hub.?????

Why would we go down to Union Station? No passenger trains go there and for the foresable future it will continue to be the administrative offices for COTPA. Not exactly a "destination" for most people riding on the streetcar. Plus, we have gone from being a block away on Reno as originally concieved to coming in direct contact with the park itself on the corner. The whole idea is people can walk into the park. The streetcar doesn't need to literally run through the middle of it.
Besides being the southernmost point on an earlier proposed "route"...
http://www.mtpokc.com/img/about/connections.jpg
Because it WAS a train station. You would be utilizing it again for its intended purpose. COTPA can move. If it went there it could certainly be a destination and now you are eliminating it from the equation, just an interesting building backdrop not serving a functional purpose. By having the streetcar essentially touch the Park in the most minimal fashion, it will discourage using the Park in a meaningful way. If they are dropped off in the middle, then they would be more likely to explore in various directions. Even better the more options you give them (have a stop at the current spot, the middle and later the other end when that part is built).

The N/S line is only separated by a block, so you are gaining some by the added block but those in the middle are overlapping (they are still at most 1 block away from either track) the same coverage as being double tracked on the same street (people on both sides of the track are within 1 block of it). Someone posted (think it was you but may have been JTF) that the more distance you have the greater the coverage is. That is only being marginally achieved with the northern end where 2 blocks are separating (but they are the short side blocks). Instead of double tracking, why not have bi-directional tracks in that limited area. That gives you more track to extend to other areas.

Betts argued (and I agree) more than once that the streetcar needed to have as few turns as possible so the 16 turns doesn't make since. You can still get around the obstacles mentioned without all the turns (but there may be physical barriers that prevent that, I don't know). betts and I were in agreement about Union Station (at least early in the thread)

Post #617 & #620

Can we leave out Union Station? I'll be interested to see the ultimate route, but I think you've almost got to run the line there, or you've left Core to Shore completely without access.

I disagree. Expanding this line will be a slow process. Union Station will be an integral part of Core to Shore, and the park is part of the first phase of Core to Shore. We've already learned that development follows street car lines. One of the best ways to stimulate development in that area is with the street car line. One of the best ways to ensure that our Central Park doesn't become a Will Rogers Park.....out of the way, difficult to access and thus underutilized....is to make it easily accessible immediately. None of the area the line will serve really qualifies as significantly "denser" or "more populated" right now anyway.

Guess my eyesight is failing a bit. Where is the most current map of the suggested initial route(s)?

See item VIII. W. on last week's Council agenda:
http://www.okc.gov/AgendaPub/mtgviewer.aspx?meetid=1562&doctype=AGENDA
I had trouble making that work in my browser, can try this link too
http://newsok.com/maps-3-streetcar-preferred-route-presented-to-oklahoma-city-council/article/3680294

Larry, to be quite honest regarding the Park and Union Station, I doubt that we have the money to go further down there. Plus, on our primary line we are trying to get as many people as quickly from the future Intermodal Hub into the CBD without going too far out of our way. The assumption is that connecting to Santa-Fe Station will be helping distribute future commuters coming in from Edmond, Norman, Midwest City. We are serving C2S while still not taking people too far out of their way on to their jobs. I realize that is looking out into the future, but because this is a permanent system, we are thinking that way.

Besides, in the future the entire distance of the new MAPS 3 Park will be presumably served by the future extension of the streetcar system to the river or Capitol Hill.

Regarding the turns, it was debated at length and yes there is a good reason for all of them.

Regarding double track versus single track, we are simply not going to agree. If utilities end up being a huge issue, we might end up double tracking other places. Otherwise, analysis and engineering is commencing on what is proposed.

From Urban Pioneer:


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/streetcar1.jpg



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/streetcar2.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/streetcar3.jpg

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=479129882113561&set=a.479129875446895.128662.100000496592027&type=1&ref=nf

the green lines are my idea on it and the blue are lines that I moved. gives the park more coverage as well as the western side of downtown. This would help stimulate the area to the west of walker that is just run down. Gives us betetr access to the ballpark as well as service to reno in bricktown as well as sheridan. Overall is will add some track but should not be too much I don't think. Oh and there would also be rail from broadway to gaylord on sheridan.

I can't see your image, but it sounds like you're way beyond the project scope of 6-7 miles of rail.

From Urban Pioneer:
http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/streetcar3.jpg[/center]

In case anyone is wondering, this shot was taken at NW 33rd St. & Robinson

Selling ad space even back then I see

What's the latest news on the commuter rails going to Midwest City area? They said it was shovel ready, when is that suppose to start?

I've never even heard about that.

What's the latest news on the commuter rails going to Midwest City area? They said it was shovel ready, when is that suppose to start?

Even if it may be shovel ready it is not funded and probably will be years after the downtown streetcar is open before they might start.

We'll just say it's not a priority.

What's the latest news on the commuter rails going to Midwest City area? They said it was shovel ready, when is that suppose to start?

We may spend some MAPS funds to purchase Union Pacific's track between Santa-Fe station and their Harter Yard. That is a critical "pinch point" that is required to be preserved for both the NE "Adventure Line" and the Midwest City connection. But it requires crossing the UP "mainline" and that may require a flyover. A new bridge over Crutcho Creek and the Oklahoma River is also required.

Still, this is the most "doable" line (other than the NE line) because of its short distance and the broad political support for it at each end. These design issues are about to be studied in detail in ACOG's Alternatives Analysis, which is about to be ramped up with URS as consultant.

I'd say, look 2-3 years out before you see that process completed. The MAPS acquisition of the UP track is a huge issue though that is ongoing. I'm actually working on that this weekend.

UP working on UP. Awesome ;-)

We may spend some MAPS funds to purchase Union Pacific's track between Santa-Fe station and their Harter Yard. That is a critical "pinch point" that is required to be preserved for both the NE "Adventure Line" and the Midwest City connection. But it requires crossing the UP "mainline" and that may require a flyover. A new bridge over Crutcho Creek and the Oklahoma River is also required.

Still, this is the most "doable" line (other than the NE line) because of its short distance and the broad political support for it at each end. These design issues are about to be studied in detail in ACOG's Alternatives Analysis, which is about to be ramped up with URS as consultant.

I'd say, look 2-3 years out before you see that process completed. The MAPS acquisition of the UP track is a huge issue though that is ongoing. I'm actually working on that this weekend.

Awesome! Thanks for the update!

Originally Posted by betts
Can we leave out Union Station? I'll be interested to see the ultimate route, but I think you've almost got to run the line there, or you've left Core to Shore completely without access.


Originally Posted by betts
I disagree. Expanding this line will be a slow process. Union Station will be an integral part of Core to Shore, and the park is part of the first phase of Core to Shore. We've already learned that development follows street car lines. One of the best ways to stimulate development in that area is with the street car line. One of the best ways to ensure that our Central Park doesn't become a Will Rogers Park.....out of the way, difficult to access and thus underutilized....is to make it easily accessible immediately. None of the area the line will serve really qualifies as significantly "denser" or "more populated" right now anyway.

Larry, you are right. I wanted the street car to either go into the park, or at least alongside it. And all things being equal, I would still like more access to the park than we have planned. However, in looking at our finite number of track miles, I think the route we have come up with maximizes connectivity given our budget. Life is a compromise, but I'm happy with the compromises we've made in the subcommittee.

In time, if the commuter spur to Tinker works well, then, hopefully by that time, there will be an extension of the streetcar to Union Station. That doesn't seem like the best laid plan, which is why I believe the cotton mill site would be the ultimate prime location for a transportation center.

I like the short term use of the Santa Fe station for North/South high speed connectivity but an ideological spot for all directions hub would be that factory spot.

1797


the green lines are my idea on it and the blue are lines that I moved. gives the park more coverage as well as the western side of downtown. This would help stimulate the area to the west of walker that is just run down. Gives us betetr access to the ballpark as well as service to reno in bricktown as well as sheridan. Overall is will add some track but should not be too much I don't think. Oh and there would also be rail from broadway to gaylord on sheridan.

It would add maybe 1/2 mile of track and cover a much larger area

In time, if the commuter spur to Tinker works well, then, hopefully by that time, there will be an extension of the streetcar to Union Station. That doesn't seem like the best laid plan, which is why I believe the cotton mill site would be the ultimate prime location for a transportation center.

I like the short term use of the Santa Fe station for North/South high speed connectivity but an ideological spot for all directions hub would be that factory spot.

union station won't ever be the hub .. santa fe will be the hub for 50+ years ... and the track to tinker comes from the santa fe going east north of bricktown ... why would we go to union station? ?

1797


the green lines are my idea on it and the blue are lines that I moved. gives the park more coverage as well as the western side of downtown. This would help stimulate the area to the west of walker that is just run down. Gives us betetr access to the ballpark as well as service to reno in bricktown as well as sheridan. Overall is will add some track but should not be too much I don't think. Oh and there would also be rail from broadway to gaylord on sheridan.

It would add maybe 1/2 mile of track and cover a much larger area

except your route doesn't connect to the HUB

OKCisOK4me wasn't suggesting Union Station be the Hub, but the Cotton Mill site, right??

BoulderSooner: To clarify...in an ideal world I would swap the Union and Santa Fe station buildings (because at least from the outside, the Union Station is much more attractive)...while I know that Union Station isn't feasible as the Hub, it could still be utilized for rail purposes and be a destination stop (instead of it being offices)...just a logical place for a streetcar stop and even a mini-hub with Park related transportation like bike rentals etc. It definitely needs to be more than just a nice looking back drop for the Park. A streetcar stop would go a long way towards doing that. And regarding the comment about 1972ford's suggested route not connecting to the Hub, it doesn't needed anyway since Urban folks are going to be walking anyway, just have them walk the 3 blocks to the Hub too.

Betts, thank you for responding, since you are on the committee and given our past agreement on it, I was wondering what happened. I realize track is limited with MAPS 3 so why not ditch all of the double track nonsense around the southern end of things (make it bidirectional) and you can get the needed track to make it to Union Station???

We may spend some MAPS funds to purchase Union Pacific's track between Santa-Fe station and their Harter Yard. That is a critical "pinch point" that is required to be preserved for both the NE "Adventure Line" and the Midwest City connection. But it requires crossing the UP "mainline" and that may require a flyover. A new bridge over Crutcho Creek and the Oklahoma River is also required.

Still, this is the most "doable" line (other than the NE line) because of its short distance and the broad political support for it at each end. These design issues are about to be studied in detail in ACOG's Alternatives Analysis, which is about to be ramped up with URS as consultant.

I'd say, look 2-3 years out before you see that process completed. The MAPS acquisition of the UP track is a huge issue though that is ongoing. I'm actually working on that this weekend.

Very Good Stuff.

Is there anything of substance happing to make commuter rail a reality from Norman to Edmond?
What time frame would we be looking at?

Thanks.

Very Good Stuff.

Is there anything of substance happing to make commuter rail a reality from Norman to Edmond?
What time frame would we be looking at?

Thanks.

I bet Norman is no earlier than 10 years away from riding something. Mayor Cindy Rosenthal is highly supportive among other important Norman people on council and various committees. Its going to take forming a Regional Transit Authority, probably some kind of multi-county vote for a funding source, and potentially federal help depending on the cost.

So fairly complicated. The good news is that there is desire for such a connection on both ends of the line. You have Moore in the middle, of which I am not certain of their level of support.

Hutch, want to add anthing?

I realize track is limited with MAPS 3 so why not ditch all of the double track nonsense around the southern end of things (make it bidirectional) and you can get the needed track to make it to Union Station???

Again future commuters going to their jobs after transferring to streetcar at the Santa-Fe Hub don't want to go a on a pleasure trip past the front door of Union Station.

We all agree its a cool building, but its not a working train station anymore and there is not and probably continue not to be anything to transfer to.

Since future commuters are just that, future commuters, why not deal with any expansion plans that would get them directly to where ever they are working when the time comes? Isn't commuter rail several years if not decades away from becoming reality? The Park is being built now (relatively speaking) so it makes more sense to take care of current needs and plan for future needs when they are needed. Now if you have the luxury of building for future needs in advance, that is great, but it shouldn't be at the expense of the current needs. IMHO

Since future commuters are just that, future commuters, why not deal with any expansion plans that would get them directly to where ever they are working when the time comes? Isn't commuter rail several years if not decades away from becoming reality? The Park is being built now (relatively speaking) so it makes more sense to take care of current needs and plan for future needs when they are needed. Now if you have the luxury of building for future needs in advance, that is great, but it shouldn't be at the expense of the current needs. IMHO

Isn't it better to compromise and try to attend to both? Norman might be 10 years away but I would hazard a guess that the line to Del City, Midwest City, and Tinker might occur much sooner. Rail is permanent. Why would we want to tear up a system that is supposed to be permanent?

Plus again, can't people walk to Union Station through our beautiful new park to get there anyways? Were talking about a 2 -3 block walk from a station stop that is within eyesight? Why would we circumvent encouraging people from walking by taking them up to the front door as if it were a Walmart?

Larry - downtown offices exist right now. Who do you envision getting on and off at Union Station?

union station won't ever be the hub .. santa fe will be the hub for 50+ years ... and the track to tinker comes from the santa fe going east north of bricktown ... why would we go to union station? ?

That's the point I was making. Also, the track that runs off to the east is Union Pacific.

I bet Norman is no earlier than 10 years away from riding something. Mayor Cindy Rosenthal is highly supportive among other important Norman people on council and various committees. Its going to take forming a Regional Transit Authority, probably some kind of multi-county vote for a funding source, and potentially federal help depending on the cost.

So fairly complicated. The good news is that there is desire for such a connection on both ends of the line. You have Moore in the middle, of which I am not certain of their level of support.

Hutch, want to add anthing?

Moore has a downtown area adjacent to the tracks that they are making significant investments in. I think they realize that their downtown won't realize their intended catalyst development without expanding their building footprint. I think Moore could be a great TOD target, plus that's a city that prioritizes sheer growth over anything else.

I bet Norman is no earlier than 10 years away from riding something. Mayor Cindy Rosenthal is highly supportive among other important Norman people on council and various committees. Its going to take forming a Regional Transit Authority, probably some kind of multi-county vote for a funding source, and potentially federal help depending on the cost.

So fairly complicated. The good news is that there is desire for such a connection on both ends of the line. You have Moore in the middle, of which I am not certain of their level of support.

Hutch, want to add anthing?Thanks


From conversations that I have had with folks in Norman there seems to be broad support in the community from ordinary people for doing this down the road at some point. I have heard that the city of Moore is interested.

Since this seems to have broad support it would seem to make sense to go ahead and create a Regional Rail Transit Authority so that planning can move forward. As we build and reconstruct roads and bridges we could go ahead and do some of the things that will be needed. By starting the process now we could probably be in a better position to obtain federal grants over a period of several years rather than a onetime block grant.

I would like to see downtown OKC connected to Edmond, Tinker/ Midwest City, Moore / Norman and the OKC Airport with the possibility of further expansion around the metro.

the regional system AA study is getting ready to start ..

Plus again, can't people walk to Union Station through our beautiful new park to get there anyways? Were talking about a 2 -3 block walk from a station stop that is within eyesight? Why would we circumvent encouraging people from walking by taking them up to the front door as if it were a Walmart?

I appreciate the desire to promote healthy lifestyles (walking), but having the commuter station farther away from downtown office space is not a good idea because it would discourage ridership. The purpose of commuter rail is to 1) be more environmentally conscious and 2) be more economical, as energy costs go up. The walking distance from Union Station to the First National Center is 10 blocks, not two or three. Think how miserable that would be in February when the wind chill is -20? I live in Norman and would definitely patronize a commuter rail system, but not if it meant walking that distance to my downtown OKC from Union Station -- park or no park.

I think my debate with Larry is confusing you. Santa-Fe Station is the hub. Not Union Station. Your who I said I was concerned about in the future- note other posts.

That's awesome that the city of Norman would be on board. I imagine that Cleveland County would be supportive of this considering that the I-35 corridor is the only major freeway in OKC that is starting to become really congested.

I'm not familiar with it, but how would a regional rail authority work from a tax perspective? I know with DART, individual cities must vote for a sales tax of 0.25 cents. Has anyone decided how much money will be needed?

That's awesome that the city of Norman would be on board. I imagine that Cleveland County would be supportive of this considering that the I-35 corridor is the only major freeway in OKC that is starting to become really congested.

I'm not familiar with it, but how would a regional rail authority work from a tax perspective? I know with DART, individual cities must vote for a sales tax of 0.25 cents. Has anyone decided how much money will be needed?

The Association of Central Oklahoma Governments (ACOG), in coordination with and on behalf of the cities of Del City, Edmond, Midwest City, Moore, Norman, and Oklahoma City, is seeking proposals from qualified firms to conduct an Alternatives Analysis for each of the three commuter corridors in Central Oklahoma. ACOG has budgeted $1,250,000 in total for this study. The corridors are as follows: Edmond to downtown Oklahoma City, Norman to downtown Oklahoma City, and Midwest City (Tinker AFB) to downtown Oklahoma City.


this will be the first step .. in the process ... as far as funding goes there is more than one way ... city wide taxes or corridor wide taxes .. that is very much TBD

is seeking proposals from qualified firms to conduct an Alternatives Analysis for each of the three commuter corridors in Central Oklahoma.

They selected URS. At least it is in contract negotiation.

OKCisOK4me wasn't suggesting Union Station be the Hub, but the Cotton Mill site, right??

BoulderSooner: To clarify...in an ideal world I would swap the Union and Santa Fe station buildings (because at least from the outside, the Union Station is much more attractive)...while I know that Union Station isn't feasible as the Hub, it could still be utilized for rail purposes and be a destination stop (instead of it being offices)...just a logical place for a streetcar stop and even a mini-hub with Park related transportation like bike rentals etc. It definitely needs to be more than just a nice looking back drop for the Park. A streetcar stop would go a long way towards doing that. And regarding the comment about 1972ford's suggested route not connecting to the Hub, it doesn't needed anyway since Urban folks are going to be walking anyway, just have them walk the 3 blocks to the Hub too.

Betts, thank you for responding, since you are on the committee and given our past agreement on it, I was wondering what happened. I realize track is limited with MAPS 3 so why not ditch all of the double track nonsense around the southern end of things (make it bidirectional) and you can get the needed track to make it to Union Station???

A few comments to clear things up...

The Cotton Mill site was one of the sites evaluated in ACOG's Intermodal Hub Study last year conducted by Jacobs Engineering. The site did not score as high as the combined Santa Fe site properties for the future hub for a number of reasons...cost...connectivity...operational staging...walkability and pedestrian issues...sense of place.

Thanks to the Crosstown design, Union Station has only room for one mainline freight track and one siding track. The only possible use of the facility now from a rail transit perspective would be as a simple stop for commuter trains running between OKC and Yukon. However, even that may not be practical from a cost perspective due to the costs required to access and develop the now below-grade rail area. Further, with the intermodal hub being located only blocks away, the number of persons who would be boarding or offloading at that stop would probably be minimal, at best, and not justify the costs of developing a stop there. Sorry to say, but Union Station has most likely been permanently eliminated as a functioning rail station of any kind. Maybe it can at least be tranformed into a rail and local history museum.

Obviously, based on the facts above, there is no need to connect to the streetcar to Union Station for rail connectivity purposes. And there's no sense to waste track mileage any further south of the Boulevard until both the Park and Core to Shore are well on there way to being developed. Until then, there's simply not going to be ridership of any significance to justify servicing that area as part of the initial streetcar route.

Isn't it better to compromise and try to attend to both? Norman might be 10 years away but I would hazard a guess that the line to Del City, Midwest City, and Tinker might occur much sooner. Rail is permanent. Why would we want to tear up a system that is supposed to be permanent?

Plus again, can't people walk to Union Station through our beautiful new park to get there anyways? Were talking about a 2 -3 block walk from a station stop that is within eyesight? Why would we circumvent encouraging people from walking by taking them up to the front door as if it were a Walmart?
But it doesn't look like we are even attempting to do both, it looks like clipping the corner of the Park was a happy coincidence by hitting the Convention Center and Arena. Of course they can walk 3 blocks, but by the same token why are you routing the streetcar through the Hub, why not just get within 3 blocks and call it good? Not talking about tearing anything up


Larry - downtown offices exist right now. Who do you envision getting on and off at Union Station?
And how are those in those DT offices getting to the Hub? The commuter rail doesn't exist yet and won't for quite a while even by best case scenario???

That's awesome that the city of Norman would be on board. I imagine that Cleveland County would be supportive of this considering that the I-35 corridor is the only major freeway in OKC that is starting to become really congested.

I'm not familiar with it, but how would a regional rail authority work from a tax perspective? I know with DART, individual cities must vote for a sales tax of 0.25 cents. Has anyone decided how much money will be needed?

The fact is there is now significant support both publicly and politically in Norman, Emdond, Midwest City, Del City and OKC for a regional rail transit system. In addition to the Commuter Rail Study (Alternatives Analysys) for the Norman to OKC, Edmond to OKC and Midwest City/Tinker AFB to OKC corridor that ACOG is about to commence, ACOG is also preparing to begin Regional Transit Dialogue II, which will bring municipal officials and other community leaders together for a year-long planning process to lay the groundwork for creating, governing, funding and operating a regional transit system, including commuter rail between the mentioned cities.

RTD II is in follow-up to the original RTD discussions that took place in 2009-2010. That process resulted in some very good planning recommendations, including how to best fund the future system. Unlike DART, which made their efforts much more difficult by seeking a vote to be in or out of the system on a city-by-city basis, the Governance-Finance Committee of RTD recommended using a special regional transit district approach, such as in place in Denver. Under that plan, a Regional Transit Authority (RTA) is created between the various municipalities who will be served by the system. The RTA then creates a regional transit district, which overlaps City and County limits and is carefully drawn to cover the primary transit corridors and the main population and employment density areas along those corridors. The RTA then holds a referendum vote to fund the district, usually through additional sales tax collected from within the district. Only those voters living within the district vote for the proposisition and the measures passes or fails based on the overall vote of the district and not on a city-by-city or county-by-county basis. Once the permanent dedicated funding source is approved, the RTA can begin issuing bonds based on the future revenue stream and can immediately begin development and construction of the regional transit system.

If everything continues to go well from a public and political rail transit support perspective, we may be 5 years away from voting to fund a regional transit system and 10 years away until its fully-operational.

I consider myself a railbuff but when it comes to commuter rail I have only one question...do the sets operate on BNSF or UP existing tracks or is a new roadbed, track, rails and ballast laid down in their ROW (right of way)?

But it doesn't look like we are even attempting to do both, it looks like clipping the corner of the Park was a happy coincidence by hitting the Convention Center and Arena. Of course they can walk 3 blocks, but by the same token why are you routing the streetcar through the Hub, why not just get within 3 blocks and call it good? Not talking about tearing anything up

And how are those in those DT offices getting to the Hub? The commuter rail doesn't exist yet and won't for quite a while even by best case scenario???

I swear Larry, you are confusing the hell out of people and grating on my nerves. Short of the consultants saying its a bad route when they go into engineering because we've missed something or utilities too costly to move are in the way, it is what it is.

Let's move on. We're getting a streetcar. Its not designed the way you want it. Get over it.

I realize track is limited with MAPS 3 so why not ditch all of the double track nonsense around the southern end of things (make it bidirectional) and you can get the needed track to make it to Union Station???

Most modern streetcars run in the lane of traffic...and in the same direction as the traffic. You don't run streetcars opposing the direction of traffic. The only place you can operate bi-directionally is within a center median and out of the flow of traffic. But that's not often practical. Even then, you're required to double track sections of the route in order to allow for streetcars to pass each other. Go take a look at all of the modern streetcar systems in the US...either in operation or planned for development...they employ either couplet or double-track designs or a combination of both.

nm