The CC will be on the first segment going past it northbound on Robinson.

See, this is why I don't like the couplet. If conventioneers want to go to Bricktown for lunch they will not be able to take the northbound street car. They will have to walk all the way to Sheridan and Broadway to catch it - and then it will only take them to Santa Fe (one block away) where they have to get off. It would just be faster for them to walk all the way to Bricktown - especially if they have to wait a few minutes for a streetcar.

http://static.npaper-wehaa.com/pub-files/1218117144489afe1821058/pub/Oklahoma-Gazette-02-16-2011/lib/12977296834d59c8939a4d3.jpg

From Steve's blog.

Could This Be the Beginning of OKC’s New Streetcar System? (http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2011/07/15/could-this-be-the-beginning-of-okcs-new-streetcar-system/streetcar/)

http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/files/2011/07/streetcar.jpg

Looks good to me!

All I can do is shake my head and wipe away a tear. At least they abandoned the couplet idea for phase 2.

All I can do is shake my head and wipe away a tear. At least they abandoned the couplet idea for phase 2.

Kerry?

kerry?

lol

So I have a question does this street car have to stay downtown. Like could it be changed and only part of it go down town and the rest go to the Capital building or OUHSC, or the Paseo district(I mean to one of those locations not all). Because this street car is starting to look not so good right now. So does it have to stay downtown by law or can it be changed or tweaked.

Precisely where the streetcar goes is dependent on multiple things, including financial constraints and engineering issues. If you look at the map, there is a line that goes to the Health Sciences Center. At this point in time, it would likely be part of phase II. Depending on construction costs, and potentially federal financing, it could be added earlier than phase II. It's not very far from the Health Sciences Center to the Capital and so it's a variable in the equation.

Ultimately, there are lots of options that would not just include Bricktown, downtown, and Midtown. Initially, we have a budget of $125 million and that budget will very much be part of the decision-making process. If you look at other cities that have Modern Streetcar, we will actually have the biggest startup route that's been built, if we are able to complete the Bricktown to Midtown route. But, when you go somewhere, you have to return. The farther away from downtown we go with the streetcar, the more mileage it's going to take to get back.

It is virtually impossible for the streetcar to be our mass transit panacea. Commuter rail will eventually be part of the package as well. In addition, I would like to see a push to improve our bus system and make it a viable transit alternative for more people. If planned well, together they can offer multiple ways to move people throughout the city without a car.

See, this is why I don't like the couplet. If conventioneers want to go to Bricktown for lunch they will not be able to take the northbound street car. They will have to walk all the way to Sheridan and Broadway to catch it - and then it will only take them to Santa Fe (one block away) where they have to get off. It would just be faster for them to walk all the way to Bricktown - especially if they have to wait a few minutes for a streetcar.

http://static.npaper-wehaa.com/pub-files/1218117144489afe1821058/pub/Oklahoma-Gazette-02-16-2011/lib/12977296834d59c8939a4d3.jpg

What's shown in this image is PART of a system plan. It is part of a larger system not depicted or finalized as we are awaiting critical engineering and cost data.

Regarding major conventions, a "special event" train could be activated that takes people in mass directly from the CC directly to the center of Bricktown. Robinson will have a "for sure" stop headed northbound. Reno, new Blvd, or Sheridan had yet to be finalized.

All I can do is shake my head and wipe away a tear. At least they abandoned the couplet idea for phase 2.

Most modern American Systems are couplets. There are some sound reasons why. In this case particularly.

Most modern American Systems are couplets. There are some sound reasons why. In this case particularly.

If by 'most' you mean Portland and 4 blocks in Seattle then you are correct - the rest of the world (about 99% of all track mileage) doesn't use them. There are some sound reason why.

If by 'most' you mean Portland and 4 blocks in Seattle then you are correct - the rest of the world (about 99% of all track mileage) doesn't use them. There are some sound reason why.

Also most "planned" systems. I think there is a thread on those systems for reference.

Look, it's real simple. I went to the national rail conference in Portland and the Portlanders told us why. The couplet in Portland was entirely an unplanned "fluke". They had planned to do a double-track for their entire system following European tradittion. They couldn't for a stretch and installed the couplet.

The result was phenomenal. People were willing to walk a single extra block to catch the train thus creating an area of extreme urban vitality sandwiched between the lines. They proclaimed at this conference of streetcar planners and engineers that if they could, their entire system would be a couplet.

In our case, we have good design reasons to do it. The CC, the heart of the CBD, the Memorial, DEQ (work force), and churches are on Robinson. Plus lots of empty lots interdespersed. That's a very diverse type of ridership with lots of "infill/economic" potential. Plus lots of developing housing on the Midtown neighborhood service at the end. We already know the benefits of Broadway.

But there are sound engineering reasons too. Broadway at 3rd street has a difficult turn and 11th in Midtown does not go straight through.

Finally, I am personally (and other project members), have been lobbied heavily to chase empty lots on the westside of downtown. I believe the streetcar will be sucessful only if we pick up enough people who legitamately want to go somewhere. We need immediate ridership. The Broadway/Robinson design offers the highest ridership with the most diverse "infill" opportunities.

It is a reasonably safe stable rideship and engineering sound system start.

With the greatest respect to anyone who has a different opinion, tell me why we should "double-track" everything other than "that's what the European's do".

***crickets***

***crickets***

roar!!!

Area served by couplets. Light green are areas within 1 block of bi-directional traffic. Drak green are areas within 2 blocks of bi-directional traffic.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/Couplet-track.jpg


Area served by double track. Light green are areas within 1 block of bi-directional traffic. Dark green are areas within 2 blocks of bi-directional traffic.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/Double-track.jpg

Using double track puts twice as much area within 1 block of two-way traffic and twice as much area within 2 blocks. As you can see from the above graphics, a double track system actually serves more people than couplets.

Also, lets go back to the convention center and Bricktown. People will have to walk further to get the streetcar than they will if they just walk to Bricktown (unless they want to take the grand tour of downtown via a north bound streetcar). Making people walk further will not boost ridership.


From Robinson/Reno to the nearest Bricktown bound streetcar at Broadway/Sheridan is 1,336 feet. Then they only ride the streetcar 836 feet where they have to walk again. It would be faster and shorter to just walk to the canal down Reno.

Also, the distance between couplets in Portland is just over 200'. It is over 600' (3X further) in OKC. In Seattle the 4 blocks that use couplets are just 300' apart. The rest of their system is double track.

Couplets are the rail version of one-way streets. OKC is currently spending millions to un-do the one way streets.

It IS you Kerry. It really is time to let it rest. Jacobs Engineering did an analysis of various routes and the one the AA is presenting to Council scored the highest. There's almost more economic development potential on Robinson than Broadway at this point in time, as space along Broadway is rapidly filling up. A couplet will improve ridership and create great walking "malls" on the east-west streets

Maybe your right Betts, but I stand by the graphics that show a double track serving more area which is why most system around the world use double track. Are these analysis of various routes available to the public?

Now I am totally confused....

It is Kerry. IIRC he used the exact same graphics earlier on through the thread.

Kerry will trust his graphics, I will trust the engineers on this one. Jacobs is a very good engineer group, I put my faith in what they recommend.

Kerry will trust his graphics, I will trust the engineers on this one. Jacobs is a very good engineer group, I put my faith in what they recommend.

Have you seen these studies? I have been following this pretty darn closely and this is the first I have heard of these.

The study was done by Jacobs for the Alternatives Analysis Committee. The route pictured on Steve's blog is the AA "local preferred route". The study may be included in the presentation to City Council this week.

The study was done by Jacobs for the Alternatives Analysis Committee. It may be included in the presentation to City Council this week.

Does that mean the study will then be available to the public, because I would really like to see what options were analyzed.

I personally have not seen the streetcar study. I did see the Hub Study presentation though, and thought they did an outstanding job. They have also worked with the airport (which I follow very closely as most on here know) and they have been nothing but outstanding on their studies and engineering jobs.

I also highly respect betts and the streetcar subcommittee team. I have 100% confidence that if they say Jacobs recommended X, and they are going to follow X, that we will not be disappointed. You have people like betts and Urban Pioneer (among others) who are highly interested in the streetcar project, and are devoting there time on doing this right, and you also have a consultant that is very trustworthy. I have complete confidence in this team.

We will see a few years from now who was right. Until then, we are just beating a dead horse here. We have already had debate after debate on here. I used to be a double track and anti-couplet person. But after studying more on it, seeing it's success in other communities, I am convinced it is the right choice. For certain lines, it would not be the best choice due to how the roads are lined up. But for the core track, I think it is the right way to go.

Time will tell.

Area served by couplets. Light green are areas within 1 block of bi-directional traffic. Drak green are areas within 2 blocks of bi-directional traffic.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/Couplet-track.jpg


Area served by double track. Light green are areas within 1 block of bi-directional traffic. Dark green are areas within 2 blocks of bi-directional traffic.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/Double-track.jpg

Using double track puts twice as much area within 1 block of two-way traffic and twice as much area within 2 blocks. As you can see from the above graphics, a double track system actually serves more people than couplets.

Also, lets go back to the convention center and Bricktown. People will have to walk further to get the streetcar than they will if they just walk to Bricktown (unless they want to take the grand tour of downtown via a north bound streetcar). Making people walk further will not boost ridership.


From Robinson/Reno to the nearest Bricktown bound streetcar at Broadway/Sheridan is 1,336 feet. Then they only ride the streetcar 836 feet where they have to walk again. It would be faster and shorter to just walk to the canal down Reno.

Also, the distance between couplets in Portland is just over 200'. It is over 600' (3X further) in OKC. In Seattle the 4 blocks that use couplets are just 300' apart. The rest of their system is double track.

Couplets are the rail version of one-way streets. OKC is currently spending millions to un-do the one way streets.

Was Kerry banned or something? Why is he using this username?

With the greatest respect to anyone who has a different opinion, tell me why we should "double-track" everything other than "that's what the European's do".

In the last week I have seened with me own eyes single tracks in three European cities. Stockholm, Helsinki, Tallinn. Single track routes do exist quite commonly in European cities. But here's the thing that Kerry doesn't understand, WE DONT HAVE ENDLESS INFRASTRUCTURE RESOURCES LIKE EUROPE DOES because Americans are not willing to pay for it. Yeah, it'd be great to get rid of cars and have double track on every street. Not gonna happen.

Yeah, it'd be great to get rid of cars and have double track on every street. Not gonna happen.

The whole OKC is system is going to be double tracked - it is just that the tracks will be a block apart (called a couplet). Double tracked and couplets use the exact same amount of track. Not to doubt your eyes, but where in Helsinki is there only single track? It looks to be all double-track to me. I'll have take a look at the other two cities you mentioned.

I saw some when I was walking around between the port and the Esplanade. They also have some interesting TOD schemes around trams..you don't normally see TOD like this in Europe.

The AA was approved unanimously. We spent an hour/twenty speaking about transit, Streetcar, Hub, Adventure Line, Commuter Rail at the Council meeting this morning.

Meg Salyer abstained as she has property on the proposed streetcar line. It is worth watching the video if you want to know each councilman's view on rail transit and where we are at today.

Also, our next subcommittee meeting is next Wednesday at the Cox Convention Center at 3:30 in Room 8. We will be taking a "walk through" tour of Santa Fe Station, across the street during the meeting and may vote on recommending acquisition.

UP,
What was said about the Adventure Line? If too much detail is involved, could you please post a link to the video? Thanks!

UP, If too much detail is involved, could you please post a link to the video? Thanks!

Here is a link to the video.

http://okc.gov/AgendaPub/mtgviewer.aspx?meetid=1305&doctype=AGENDA

You will need to skip to 49 minutes 30 seconds. That is where it starts.

Anyone else notice the streetcar doesn't directly serve the hub at Santa Fe, especially if the line is moved down to the new boulevard where I-40 is now. I am also saddened by how anti-smart some of the council members are. As I am watching this video it is apparent the council members don't know the streetcar is running in a traffic lane. Do the fully expect to run a streetcar in the opposite direction of traffic right in the middle of the lane?

I can't watch anymore. These clowns are trying to squeeze every mile out of the system but then at the same time suggest the city pay for an experimental propulsion system. What a disaster.

Anyone else notice the streetcar doesn't directly serve the hub at Santa Fe, especially if the line is moved down to the new boulevard where I-40 is now. I am also saddened by how anti-smart some of the council members are. As I am watching this video it is apparent the council members don't know the streetcar is running in a traffic lane. Do the fully expect to run a streetcar in the opposite direction of traffic right in the middle of the lane?

I can't watch anymore. These clowns are trying to squeeze every mile out of the system but then at the same time suggest the city pay for an experimental propulsion system. What a disaster.

Watch it though. I got to deal with the propulsion a bit.

Regarding Santa Fe, it will be directly served.

This was a very good and diverse discussion that needed to happen at this moment.

I'm still watching, You have a lot more patience than I do.

As for serving the hub. The closest that street car gets to Santa Fe station is 365 feet. That is more than a football field (including the endzones). South of Santa Fe it has the potential to be nearly 1000' away. That is not "directly serving" to me.

As for serving the hub. The closest that street car gets to Santa Fe station is 365 feet. That is more than a football field (including the endzones). South of Santa Fe it has the potential to be nearly 1000' away. That is not "directly serving" to me.

If you "marry" the Hub Study with the generalized AA route that was presented today, you will see that the streetcar is proposed to go directly in front of the Santa Fe Station with a stop about 50' away from the front door.

All I have to say is I recommend having some patience as our committee puts all these pieces together into a comprehensive plan.

Interesting... At hour 2:58 in the video a big presentation on bus issues including connecting to the new Outlet Mall.

If you "marry" the Hub Study with the generalized AA route that was presented today, you will see that the streetcar is proposed to go directly in front of the Santa Fe Station with a stop about 50' away from the front door.

All I have to say is I recommend having some patience as our committee puts all these pieces together into a comprehensive plan.

Thanks UP. That is what I was hoping. On a personal note - I know you and I don't see eye to eye on everything but I will say this, after watching that video you were probably the second smartest person in the room. I thought Dr. Shadid did a pretty good job of explaining how the streetcar will attract its own population base. To bad the people he was trying to explain it to aren't smart enough to know that you can't send a southbound streetcar down the northbound lanes of traffic on Lincoln - you know - like freight trains do.

Thanks! lol I don't know bout smart. Just know a bit about streetcar.

I do wish that at some point we could take whichever council members would like to go on a trip to Seattle or Portland.

It is my understanding that some of them are going to Minneapolis next week and it is my hope that they ride the light-rail system out there.

It is my understanding that some of them are going to Minneapolis next week and it is my hope that they ride the light-rail system out there.

They might take the light-rail but I'll bet $100 they don't take a city bus to go anywhere. When they get back I would like a reporter to ask them if they rode a city bus while they were there, and if not, why not.

If you "marry" the Hub Study with the generalized AA route that was presented today, you will see that the streetcar is proposed to go directly in front of the Santa Fe Station with a stop about 50' away from the front door.

All I have to say is I recommend having some patience as our committee puts all these pieces together into a comprehensive plan.

The were also having a couple people not getting that you could not have it go both ways on the same track which shares a lane with traffic, though it would make driving and riding more exciting.

The were also having a couple people not getting that you could not have it go both ways on the same track which shares a lane with traffic, though it would make driving and riding more exciting.

More exciting huh? lol Dedicated lanes are the cheap way of dealing with light-rail when in traffic. Bad idea... The streetcar as proposed will flow with traffic and not have a dedicated lane eliminating the "left hand turn issue" and "merging" issues as well.

Have you ever seen this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV2rdGX4JYc

More exciting huh? lol Dedicated lanes are the cheap way of dealing with light-rail when in traffic. Bad idea... The streetcar as proposed will flow with traffic and not have a dedicated lane eliminating the "left hand turn issue" and "merging" issues as well.

Have you ever seen this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV2rdGX4JYc

Yea, it was posted on here a couple dozen pages ago.

I thought everyone might like to see one of the renderings of a possible future Santa Fe Intermodal Station prepared as part of the hub study...

942

I like it - a lot.

Does the bus station stay where it is, or does it move to the Santa Fe Intermodal?

That is very nice Jeff.

Found these on TAP Architecture Website (ACOG Hub Study - Santa Fe Depot
Oklahoma City):

http://www.taparchitecture.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/ACOG-Santa-Fe-Sect-2-Phase-2-8X3-72dpi-360x162.jpg

http://www.taparchitecture.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/CACOG-Santa-Fe-Canal-Level-View-2-20X13-Cropped2-360x244.jpg

Anyone else notice the new buildings on the Cox site seperated by what would appear to be a street? If California Street was opened up between ELG and Robinson and the Broadway extended down to it, the streetcar could pull right up to the front door of the station. Too bad the timing won't work out to make that happen unless Cox is torn down sooner rather than later. Although, I guess this hub would be built in the 'out years' so maybe the timing will work after all. That could explain why they wanted to move the convention center up by 30 months. It has to be built so the rest of the dominos can be put in place.

Does the bus station stay where it is, or does it move to the Santa Fe Intermodal?

the grey hound bus station is moving to eastern(MLK) and reno

the METROtransit station is staying in place for now .... although hopefully we redo our entire bus system and go to a grid system and then we won't need a Metro transit center

Early on, the plan was to incorporate the Metro Transit Center into the intermodal hub (I had the article someplace). I don't know when it changed to the current plan. While it would seem a shame to "waste" the money spent on the relatively new facility, just seems logical. Just as having the Streetcar connect to the other end of the MAPS 3 Park/Union Station (which would re-utilize it for its designed purpose), but that doesn't seem to be happening now either.

The new facility has the capacity for both the Metro Transit buses and Greyhound should they ever be incorporated as part of the over all "Transit Campus." They are depicted in the Hub Study as being part of the ground floor of the proposed parking garage next to the U-Haul building setting on what is now a surface parking lot. The campus would be connected via the elevated concourse/escalators back to Santa-Fe.

Urban, Thanks for the info (& good to hear). Just by definition, I always saw "Intermodal" hub as the connecting point for as many forms of mass trans as possible. Including, City and Commercial buses, Taxis, Streetcars, Commuter Rail, High Speed Rail etc.

Urban, Thanks for the info (& good to hear). Just by definition, I always saw "Intermodal" hub as the connecting point for as many forms of mass trans as possible. Including, City and Commercial buses, Taxis, Streetcars, Commuter Rail, High Speed Rail etc.

And this "Campus" actually has the capacity to connect all of those things and their related needs. Because the Metro Transit Station is so new, their is resistance to switching over and it seems that more key people are understanding that a "grid type" system would be more efficient for the future. I am hearing more coherent talk about the bus system from our elected leaders than I can ever remember. Just watch the end of this past Tuesday's City Council meeting to see how they are starting to grasp that this is a better way forward long-term.

...

the grey hound bus station is moving to eastern(MLK) and reno

the METROtransit station is staying in place for now .... although hopefully we redo our entire bus system and go to a grid system and then we won't need a Metro transit center

Yes, Greyhound is moving right now, but they are involved in talks to move to the new Hub when it's constructed.

What? Devon didn't want the Greyhound "transient element" near their new campus? Shocking!

Seriously, I hope they don't tear down the bus station. It could be a very cool diner, bar or restaurant.

I've heard from several people that there are plans in the works for the Greyhound Station. I seriously doubt it's going to be torn down. It would be a terrible shame if that happened, as it's got a great urban vibe.

Here's the proposed site plan for the initial phases of the intermodal hub:

953

The plan expands Santa Fe Station with an additional glass-fronted transit hall to serve commuter rail and future high-speed rail. Also included is a bike station.

The proposal incorporates a 2-platform design for servicing Amtrak and commuter rail within the limits of the existing elevated terminal area. An optional expansion phase allows for 3 platforms and additional tracks to meet future rail transit needs.

The design creates new connectivity between downtown and Bricktown by way of a pedestrian concourse which passes through the facility. The plan also includes redevelopment of the west end of the canal to make the area more accessible and functional.

Under the plan, EK Gaylord is redeveloped as a primary transit corridor, with a streetcar stop located directly in front of Santa Fe and the potential for a future light rail line.

In addition, the design suggests the possible redevelopment of the Cox superblock, with a potential pedistrian mall linking Santa Fe to the Myriad Gardens.

The proposal also includes a future parking garage and intercity bus terminal to be located on the east side of the terminal and south of Reno.

What happens to the freight trains? Will they still pass through this station? Commuter trains typically sit in the station for about 15 minutes to give passengers time to load/unload, transfer between connecting trains, etc. How many freight trains a day pass by now?

Two mainline tracks would pass through the middle of the terminal to service freight trains. The west platform and side tracks would service Amtrak and the Edmond-Norman commuter rail line. The east platform and side tracks would service all other commuter rail lines and high-speed rail. Passenger access to the platforms would be from below the terminal via tunnels, stairs, escalators and elevators.

The proposed site plan looks AWESOME!! When can we get started?!? I really wish development didn't take so long. It'll probably be 2025-2030 AT LEAST before that area is even close to looking as the proposal.