I'm going to challege people online again. On the downtown route that we are recommending for protection, what locations deserve stops?

Nobody seems to be biting for what really is the next major thing to consider. I will.

The no-brainer is the south side of the transit center on 4th street - essentially a cross-platform connection. For the Walker corridor the west side of Walker opposite City Hall would work very well. Then somewhere around the current Greyhound/Stage Theater. One would think opposite Devon and directly next to the Myriad Gardens would work, but perhaps the southeast corner of Sheridan and Robinson would allow a good transfer point between the northbound and eastbound lines at that point.

I'm going to challege people online again. On the downtown route that we are recommending for protection, what locations deserve stops?

Are their any maps of the old streetcar routes that were torn out or paved over to see what kind of solutions they were using in the city core? granted the streets have been modified a bit since then, but it would be nice to see what was good and bad about that layout.

Never mind, a little bit more googling found some.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2521/4155431721_2f31628fc7_b.jpg

If you study the map closely, you will see that we are proposing to "reinstall" much of the old system. That's how strong the old urban "bones" downtown are.

If you look closely, even the "transit mall" is not a new idea. I had never noticed it before. We are installing something that must have worked well in the past. What a novel coincidence. The debate, the logic, the technical data... is leading us back to somewhere where we have already been.

This is a clearer map, originally from "When Oklahoma Took The Trolley" by Allison Chandler and Stephen Maguire published in 1980. More info on Doug Loudenback's blog at http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2007/09/okc-trolleys-part-1.html.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/trolleys/whenoktooktrolley_map02x.jpg

Here is good rule of thumb for OKC - If a street has a median it is becasue the streetcar ran down it. Of course, maps like that make me smile when I hear people say streetcars won't work in OKC.

@Doug L. - What was on the site of the Legacy and Sycamore apartments that would have the street car run on both sides of it? Was it the trolley barn?

These maps are awesome. I agree with urban pioneer, we are redoing what has already been done.
Truly exciting!

I kind of wonder what those lines would look like i you superimposed them on a map from google maps. making necessary changes for any changes in the streets.

I kind of wonder what those lines would look like i you superimposed them on a map from google maps. making necessary changes for any changes in the streets.

I think Platemaker already did that. It is on one of the pages in this thread. Maybe he can post it again.

Here is a quick one just in case Platemaker doesn't have one. This is based on the second map above. There were other lines besides these that were eventually built.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/OKC-Original.jpg

Now I need to go find a retired GM executive so I can kick him the groin.

A rough first draft of some of my thoughts

Liked the idea of having all the medical facilities on one line, for easy associate red with healthcare & OU.

Wanted to do a main loop like chicago, the green line would go clockwise around loop, all others counter clockwise around loop.

Classen is such an opportune street to be a core component due to width and overall bad access to the interstates for a road of it's capacity.

Since May is one of the cities best performing bus routes would be good to either tie into that and have on the line.

Try to keep streetcar and main auto traffic lines separate but near.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5051/5435606524_84cc5b49df_b.jpg

http://www.fogcityjournal.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/waggoner_muni_accident_090803.JPG

Gives new meaning to "compact car"

So maybe not the best idea to have them sharing the same lane of traffic? But then again, could always be broadsided on a cross street....

A rough first draft of some of my thoughts

Liked the idea of having all the medical facilities on one line, for easy associate red with healthcare & OU.

Wanted to do a main loop like chicago, the green line would go clockwise around loop, all others counter clockwise around loop.

Classen is such an opportune street to be a core component due to width and overall bad access to the interstates for a road of it's capacity.

Since May is one of the cities best performing bus routes would be good to either tie into that and have on the line.

Try to keep streetcar and main auto traffic lines separate but near.


slight mod: the green and cyan lines kind of blend in on the bottom of the loop
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5059/5435054889_95232a6180_b.jpg

Here is good rule of thumb for OKC - If a street has a median it is becasue the streetcar ran down it. Of course, maps like that make me smile when I hear people say streetcars won't work in OKC.

@Doug L. - What was on the site of the Legacy and Sycamore apartments that would have the street car run on both sides of it? Was it the trolley barn?
I don't know what was on the site of today's apartments but I don't think it was the car barn. Compare the image below with a contemporary map. At the time of the drawing, Classen didn't exist that far south and the western border was Olie. The drawing isn't clear enough to make out the east/west street that enters on the east side, but I think that it is 3rd, making the northern border NW 4th.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/trolleys/vrp_early_carbarn01a.jpg

I probably don't have the pink car barn area extending far enough east, should be a little more.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/trolleys/carbarn_google.jpg

A historic note: Although the ORC pretty much had a free hand in designating trolley routes, the City Council forbade street cars on Robinson in the downtown area, in case anyone is wondering why none appeared in the old trolley maps.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5140/5435789792_d962c252fc_b.jpg

I don't know what was on the site of today's apartments but I don't think it was the car barn. Compare the image below with a contemporary map. At the time of the drawing, Classen didn't exist that far south and the western border was Olie. The drawing isn't clear enough to make out the east/west street that enters on the east side, but I think that it is 3rd, making the northern border NW 4th.



I probably don't have the pink car barn area extending far enough east, should be a little more.



A historic note: Although the ORC pretty much had a free hand in designating trolley routes, the City Council forbade street cars on Robinson in the downtown area, in case anyone is wondering why none appeared in the old trolley maps.

Thanks Doug, after I drew out the map the 'transit mall' was actually to the east of the Legacy apartment in an area bounded by 3rd, 4th, Walker and Harvey. Any idea why streetcars were not allowed on Robinson? It appears that the switch from Robinson to Broadway occurs around NW16th St. I always assume that Broadway Circle existed because the streetcars turned around there, but I guess not.

Thanks Doug, after I drew out the map the 'transit mall' was actually to the east of the Legacy apartment in an area bounded by 3rd, 4th, Walker and Harvey. Any idea why streetcars were not allowed on Robinson? It appears that the switch from Robinson to Broadway occurs around NW16th St. I always assume that Broadway Circle existed because the streetcars turned around there, but I guess not.
If I've known the reason, I've forgotten it. I just remember reading that the taboo was part of the charter granted by the city to ORC. I wouldn't be surprised if Broadway Circle was used for streetcars and think it was. But that's not Robinson, even if it's close.

If I've known the reason, I've forgotten it. I just remember reading that the taboo was part of the charter granted by the city to ORC. I wouldn't be surprised if Broadway Circle was used for streetcars and think it was. But that's not Robinson, even if it's close.

According to the map, it looks like about 1/3 of Broadway Circle was used. It appears the street car was diverted from Broadway to Broadway Place (via Broadway Circle) before making the full move to Robinson at 16th St.

Of course, any streetcar lines established after the map was made are not shown and based on wide medians in other locations, there were either new tracks laid or tracks already abandoned at the time of the map. For instance, both maps show a line ending at NW20th and Grand (now I-44) but the wide median on 20th continues on to NW23rd and Meridian and includes a sweeping turn indicative of streetcar lines. My guess is that line was extended as the City grew west of Grand.

The wide median is located on 19th at I-44.
This is what you mean, correct?

Peace....

The wide median is located on 19th at I-44.
This is what you mean, correct?

Peace....

You're correct - 19th.

Why is Walker north of 4th not a good idea?

Seems like it would a good route. I am trying not to let my personal interests get involved. I own a property at 7th and Walker. So maybe I can't help it.

I have all along thought that north on Walker to 10th street was a good idea. The traffic circle isn't that big a challenge to deal with. Civil engineers deal with much larger tasks all the time.

Turn east on Walker at 10th and you can meet up on Broadway then south.

I posted mutiple pictures of streetcars going through traffic circles on the Robinson Ave Poll thread. To me that reason is a non-starter. It is done all over the world.

http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=24769&p=401552#post401552

Here is but one example. You can see more at the link above.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/Orleans20.jpg

[QUOTE=Meaculpa;

I have all along thought that north on Walker to 10th street was a good idea. The traffic circle isn't that big a challenge to deal with. Civil engineers deal with much larger tasks all the time.

Turn east on Walker at 10th and you can meet up on Broadway then south.[/QUOTE]


There's quite a deep discussion about this on the poll thread. But here is a copied reason from it.

Going across on 11th is far less invasive than the modifications that we would have to make to our existing circle.

Plus, I saw what the construction zone did to businesses in that area. I distinctly recall that two businesses didn't make it and several others lost half of their revenue. I'm not saying that the result wasn't worth it in the long run, but it was a painful project that "crippled" that area.

As a member of the MAPS Transit Subcommittee, it is our job to look out for the citizens who may be adversely impacted by our project. Everybody will have to endure some degree of pain while the project is built. But we are trying to minimize that with new expedited construction techniques. These new techniques can allow for one block to be completed in 14 -21 days.

That circle does not fall within the less invasive construction methods that we have at our disposal. Much less even "removing it" and putting signals in. It would be extremely detrimental to Midtown during the construction phases.

Signalizing the intersection would a bunch of ugly poles and quite frankly, I think that the train would be in peril of people who still don't know how to go around that circle and yield properly. In Europe, such circles are very much a part of the driving culture. Ours is still a novelty.

I will gladly, publicly state that I will rally against messing with it. What an absolute waste of recently expended taxpayer money for the circle on top of the idea. Sorry, this is just one of the few opinions I'm pretty certain about.

And I will say again (and get flamed for it) that spending tax dollars to put traffic circles back in when we spent tax money to take them out a few years ago is absurd and wasteful. The reason given for taking them out was they weren't safe. The reason for putting them back in, "due to advancements in technology, they are much safer". Huh?

Although I would love to see them all taken out, to spend more money to do so, again, isn't that wise (unless there are fatalities) and as Urban mentioned, the cost to businesses in the area can be crippling. Urban, as long as they use "water pipe" for the poles, think quite a few on here would love the idea (personally think the water pipe design looks as cheap as it probably is).

Larry, I wasn't around when that debate took place so I can't speak to the direct purpose of those statements, but I am honestly a little confused why so many continue to call the roundabout at 10th and Walker a "traffic circle". I get that it is a common phrase and perhaps that is all it is, just easier to remember. But the engineering difference between a traffic circle (common in the US) and roundabouts (only recently being installed in the US) is quite large. I wont list all the differences since a simple Google search will provide you with as much and more information. I mention this simply because if they actually removed traffic circles and put in roundabouts (a "retrofit" if you will, that is becoming more of a common practice) then it would indeed result in a much safer intersection. The way roundabouts are built, they are incredibly safe. Not wanting to change topics, but if the discussion involves the justification of these roundabouts, then I only want to provide some perspective that might be useful.

I am trying very hard to keep my opinion on the routes to myself as we await technical and fiscal information that will impact the length and alignment options. I am greatly enjoying the ideas being brought forth though.

sid, I too don't want to derail this thread but I have been through this exact same discussion on another thread and I definitely disagree. I'm very familiar with roundabouts in Europe and I see nothing safer or more convenient about them or traffic circles compared to a traditional intersection. I see them as an accident waiting to happen.

Well, let's not "derail" this thread. I respect your opinion, but the evidence is there. Would you like me to PM you links?

You don't have to PM me any links. I've been there many times and driven on roundabouts and traffic circles. It can also be a nightmare for pedestrians. I know from first hand experience that they are not safer. It's always a nervewracking experience.

I don't want to "derail" the thread either, but I do remember the big battle that insued over it. The main reason proponents claimed that it was safer had to do with the speed at which a collision might occur. It was argued that a direct collision at 30 - 40 miles an hour was in a different realm to the 15 - 20 mph the circle practically forces everbody to go. Even running "straight through" the center would be slowed due to the higher elevation and all the landscaping.

Thanks for the info.

Call me easy, I'm satisfied with the reasoning.

Peace...

Yes, nearly all the manufacturers are developing this capability. Regarding
the bridge, it becomes an issue with "cutting" the foundation as well. BNSF will have to approve bridge mods and that is a huge question mark.

Check out the Guided Rail system in Nancy, France. It doesn't even have tracks on portions of its route.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/c.fuller1/Tvr.html

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/c.fuller1/images/cgfte_5.JPG

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/c.fuller1/images/cgfte_5b.JPG

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/c.fuller1/images/cgfte_22a.JPG

http://transbaycenter.org/media-gall...ic-art-program

And now for something completely different, check out this video of San Francisco's planned Transbay Terminal. Oh, that OKC could have the vision to create something even remotely similar in and around the Santa Fe terminal area. What an excellent idea to incorporate the Streetcar and other forms of transit into the urban fabric of the city. OK, maybe not all white and nautically focused, but why not earthy yet eclectic to echo the heart of the Plains... a real eye-catcher and focal point of urban life in OKC.

...at a cost of "$4.185 billion"??

...at a cost of "$4.185 billion"??

You're forgetting about the interest we'll draw on our Maps money, Larry. LOL

And you are forgetting the amount paid in interest on the borrowed portion of MAPS...LOL

http://okgazette.com/oklahoma/article-10807-en-route.html

From the Broadway/Robinson thread.




Urban Pioneer..... I would really like to see your opinion as to why Uptown 23rd is not being discussed more?

Well 1st, define "Uptown 23rd." Are we essentially talking about the Tower Theater?

I think the best response to all of you is that many members on the subcommittee are reaching the conclusion that "Bricktown to Midtown" is Phase 1. To translate that a bit more specifically, about 4 miles of track connecting the hub location area to St. Anthony's campus.

Several of us are thinking, leave the remaining estimated 2 miles in reserve to go into a "Phase 1b." This idea of "stretching" MAPS streetcar goals came directly from the skirmish with Council Members concerned with "reaching outside of downtown" to make a major current/future transit connections in a strategic neighborhood. Many of us think that a Phase 1b is orienting itself towards 23rd/Classen.

From that point, the streetcar could easily be expanded via a "Phase 2" to OCU, Plaza "on the return trip", or across "Uptown 23rd" to the Capitol thus coming within 4 blocks of the Paseo neighborhood.

Such "Phase 2" extensions could be paid for with several scenarios- our bids coming in less and we have more money in MAPS Transit, money is diverted from something else in MAPS that comes in under budget, a future bond issue, or Federal Matching funds.

If you can get to 23rd and Classen, you directly interface with the two busiest existing bus lines in the city and you set up a direct interface for a future BRT line (Bus Rapid Transit) as depicted in the 2005 Fixed guide-way Study) that would continue up Classen and further up NW Expressway into the NW side of town.

Add the Adventure Line at a modest price to that equation and you get a "giant V" of MAPS sponsored rail connectivity that stretches across several Wards and connects NW central, downtown, to far NE. Plus, going across on 23rd in the future connects the two far points of the "V".

And I would also say that AA (Alternatives Analysis) is focusing a great deal of their energy in on the Health Sciences and Capitol areas. Presumably, if they continue their focus, we will be in a position to start to cover this area with Federal matching funds.

The "west side", that was explained to be of some concern in the Gazette article today, is really the "backside" of this line. While the two processes need to relate t one anther, they are for somewhat different areas with different prospective funds and objectives united via a master plan. "Protecting" the west side does not mean that it is part of the MAPS route. It means preparing for a possible route (whether that is MAPS or "the bookend" to the "Federal Line") to save money via reasonable preparations in Project 180.

Urban Pioneer....thanks for the reply and as always keeping us nearly up to the minute with the streetcar progress. I know it can be difficult to completely convey your message in a forum discussion, but you do a good job.



Well 1st, define "Uptown 23rd." Are we essentially talking about the Tower Theater?


In my original reply, I should have more been specific and never used the term uptown 23rd street, and I should have simply stated 23rd street between Penn and Robinson. If we see the very next phase of streetcar reach 23rd between Classen and Robinson this will be an excellent route.


Many of us think that a Phase 1b is orienting itself towards 23rd/Classen.

I really like the sound of this and 23rd street has been brought to the forefront as the #1 streetcar route after downtown / midtown. This now answers my question as to, why Paseo, Plaza, were being discussed at length with little discussion of 23rd street.

Urban Pioneer....again great job keeping people informed, these are exciting times.

You know, I like to follow this thread, and I will ... but ... whatever the route(s), I just can't wait to see that 1st railroad spike, wherever it is get licked by a great big hammer (figuratively).

just some info from the AA meeting yesterday ..

St anthony is on board with the 11th st route over the 10th st line and it is looking more and more that the AA will move toward the 11th/13th st couplet.

Devon is concerned about the impact on the Colcord building by the street car vibriations .. they would like a broadway/hudson north south route but no one else seems to share that feeling

They are also pushing wireless streetcar option (and others are concerned about that as well) and that was discussed.... CNG cars don't exist .. the best option as of now looks to be cars with batterys that can go wireless for portions of the route ..

the AA is in argeement with the subcommittee on the robinson/broadway couplet from 4th-10th

the best info to me was the timeframe the AA plans for completion .. which is this summer giving them time to apply for 75mil in federal matching funds they recomend us only using 75mil on the 1A line of maps to apply for the 75mil in matching start up funds ... then using the other 45mil to build 1b option and be able to apply for other federal matching funds and grants ..

the mayor also made it clear that the sub-committee does not have to depend on the AA for their route .. but the 2 should share info back and forth

i'm sure that there is a lot more that i did not include

Is 'AA' Automobile Alley or Alternative Analysis

11th to 13th is 848 feet. That is a long way to walk. That pretty much means that the only TOD will take place between 11th and 13th.

Alternatives Analysis.

Unless I'm missing something, I would like to see more documentation out there about the AA process, e.g., meeting agendas and summaries plus a list of the stakeholders on the AA Steering Committee.

Alternatives Analysis.

Unless I'm missing something, I would like to see more documentation out there about the AA process, e.g., meeting agendas and summaries plus a list of the stakeholders on the AA Steering Committee.

here is some info

http://www.letstalktransit.com/aa

Is 'AA' Automobile Alley or Alternative Analysis

11th to 13th is 848 feet. That is a long way to walk. That pretty much means that the only TOD will take place between 11th and 13th.

true but north of 13th is a development end anyway because of herigite hills ..

true but north of 13th is a development end anyway because of herigite hills ..

So then why do 13th at all. We seemed to be fixated on couplets just so we can say we have them, when they aren't serving a purpose.

So then why do 13th at all. We seemed to be fixated on couplets just so we can say we have them, when they aren't serving a purpose.

13th is serving a very important purpose - immediate ridership. It interfaces with one of the most walkable neighborhoods in the City. Determing the route is a constant balancing act between maximizing future TOD potential, nuturing existing and growing development areas (Bricktown and Midtown) and ensuring the system is a succuess by getting as much all-day ridership as possible.

13th is serving a very important purpose - immediate ridership. It interfaces with one of the most walkable neighborhoods in the City. Determing the route is a constant balancing act between maximizing future TOD potential, nuturing existing and growing development areas (Bricktown and Midtown) and ensuring the system is a succuess by getting as much all-day ridership as possible.

this as well as providing a good link with the 11th st route at dewey and good extention possibilities to classen

Yep and yes to Boulder and Tier 2. When you get beyond one block separation, it really isn't a couplet in my mind. It is a neighborhood collector/distributor. It only is proposed to be that for a very small area which is upper Midtown. It pretty quickly goes back to a "pinch" at Dewey. We are making a minor mod to the early map to depicting the pinch at Dewey so that the St. Anthony's stop has both Est and Westbound traffic pinched there for easy access. (So people wouldn't have to walk to 13th to catch it Eastbound.)

...Such "Phase 2" extensions could be paid for with several scenarios- our bids coming in less and we have more money in MAPS Transit, money is diverted from something else in MAPS that comes in under budget, a future bond issue, or Federal Matching funds.

Anything is possible but don't count on other MAPS projects coming in under budget. History just isn't on your side. The original MAPS came in 47.75% over budget (NONE of the MAPS projects came in under budget). Even projects paid with bond money, the City stated during the 2007 GO bond, that projects come in an average of 8% over budget. Yet we only have 2.2% ($17M) of the MAPS 3 budget for cost over runs.

So then why do 13th at all. We seemed to be fixated on couplets just so we can say we have them, when they aren't serving a purpose.

13th is a good corridor because, and I don't know if you've been there or not, but it is a busy 4-lane road that feeds right into Classen. It gets pretty backed up from 5-6. Also, it has some good real estate along it that could make that TOD happen..and some good historic landmarks as well, like the Oklahoma Heritage Center, for example, and churches, etc. Beatnix is on 13th/Robinson.

http://static.npaper-wehaa.com/pub-files/1218117144489afe1821058/pub/Oklahoma-Gazette-02-16-2011/lib/12977296834d59c8939a4d3.jpg

So what happens here on Sheridan? Do they cross under? Does it get extended into Bricktown later? Does it turn around in front of the tracks?

How does the blue line come together, or is that not decided yet (I presume this is just being nailed down for the sake of Project 180, leaving those other areas open for further debate)? And as for the red line, would that possibly make more sense going in the opposite direction (if it switches directions, then it can share track with Broadway and make a complete circle)? Just in terms of where it meets Broadway, and the sequence in which the mixed-use Arts District is served..a sequence that should emphasize the mixed-use aspect of the Arts District, and not just its obvious cultural and entertainment venues.

13th is a good corridor because, and I don't know if you've been there or not, but it is a busy 4-lane road that feeds right into Classen. It gets pretty backed up from 5-6. Also, it has some good real estate along it that could make that TOD happen..and some good historic landmarks as well, like the Oklahoma Heritage Center, for example, and churches, etc. Beatnix is on 13th/Robinson.

http://static.npaper-wehaa.com/pub-files/1218117144489afe1821058/pub/Oklahoma-Gazette-02-16-2011/lib/12977296834d59c8939a4d3.jpg

So what happens here on Sheridan? Do they cross under? Does it get extended into Bricktown later? Does it turn around in front of the tracks?


Spartan, read the article. We don't have information to figure out the cost to go under the bridge yet or where the front/back doors of the hub is. For that matter the Convention Center site either. We just know it is "over that way." That is why we are cutting off our recommendations before going into Bricktown. Is it Eastbound on Sheridan, Reno, New Boulevard. We simply do not have the cost/structural information to make a recommendation yet. But that little piece of Red/Blue on Sheridan is the same track headed Eastbound.

just a note from the Streetcar Subcommittee .. they approved much of their "prefered" (meaning the route they want pending further info) by a almost unanimous vote.


their "prefered" route is north bound on robinson from reno to 11th turning west on 11th, turning north on Dewey then back east on 13th to broadway then south on broadway to sheridan finially left on sheridan ending at ek gaylord

they also voted to "protect" a bricktown/hub/CC leg that goes on sheridan to mickey mantle down to reno down oklahome to the new blvd ... this is subject to change based on the hub/CC and bridge studies ect ..

So 1000 people in Deep Deuce get left out? My guess is that Deep Deuce represent that highest concentration of people within 5 miles of downtown. Seem strange not to connect them.

Kerry, remember we've discussed the fact that we don't know which railroad bridge we can get under so the entire area east of the RR still has an undetermined route. Even without that knowledge, no one in Deep Deuce is more than 4 blocks from the core route. People in this neighborhood tend to be walkers. The route as outlined is 4 miles so there may be additions as well, depending upon costs.

Kerry, remember we've discussed the fact that we don't know which railroad bridge we can get under so the entire area east of the RR still has an undetermined route. Even without that knowledge, no one in Deep Deuce is more than 4 blocks from the core route. People in this neighborhood tend to be walkers.

i agree and if the bricktown leg goes to sheridan and mickey mantle that is a place that almost everyone in deep deuce already walks to anyway ..

also i should have stated in the first post .. they see this "core system" being only around 4 miles .. so depending on the actually cost we would have 2 miles or so left to add on in MAPS3 portion of the project .. and with the AA study being completed this summer we have a possibility of getting 75 mil more from the FTA as soon as next year ..

Kerry, remember we've discussed the fact that we don't know which railroad bridge we can get under so the entire area east of the RR still has an undetermined route. Even without that knowledge, no one in Deep Deuce is more than 4 blocks from the core route. People in this neighborhood tend to be walkers. The route as outlined is 4 miles so there may be additions as well, depending upon costs.

The undetermined route is a big thing, and I think Deep Deuce is a priority for streetcar, I understand that it just might have to be an expansion. Just to stress though, Deep Deuce has to be a priority. If Deep Deuce residents can be walkers, what's to say people in the Arts District or Midtown aren't walkers (hell, "Walker Avenue" goes through those districts). We're talking about the best route, and obviously Deep Deuce is a neighborhood that sticks out, and clearly it will have more density than Midtown.

That would be like drawing a map of TARGETS (lettering them A, B, C, D, E,) and then making sure that the line keeps an arbitrary distance of exactly 4 blocks from ALL of the targets, god forbid it be any more convenient than 4 blocks to the key destinations for ridership. You're supposed to connect the dots, not avoid them...

Remember, though, you have to have somewhere to go on the streetcar. I bet you the majority of people in Deep Deuce will be more excited about taking a streetcar to Midtown than they will be to be able to get right on the streetcar without a walk. We walk to Bricktown. We walk to the CBD, I walk to 9th street, but I drive to Midtown. That's my perspective, of course, but I bet others would say the same thing. Remember too, that 13th street allows the people in Heritage Hills and Mesta Park direct access to the streetcar. We've got a lot of people within reasonable walking distance of 13th street, where they can pick it up to go to the Ford Center, the new Central Park, Bricktown. It adds a lot of ridership.

To me, the logical route for Deep Deuce is one going down 4th street to the Health Sciences Center, perhaps looping around to 4th and Walker. That would allow people to live in Deep Deuce and ride to work at the Health Sciences Center, take the streetcar over to the Art Museum, the Civic Center, La Trattoria. This assumes that the railroad bridge is not a problem, however. Everyone needs to sit back and wait. This is the core loop and it doesn't mean other neighborhoods aren't in the committee's sights.

Kerry, we have dots connecting the new Central Park, the CBD, the Memorial, Midtown, St. Anthony's, Automobile Alley, the new hub, the Ford Center, the Skirvin, the Myriad Gardens. Barring the convention center being placed at the fairgrounds, the streetcar will connect to it as well. All things being equal, it will connect to the Rehawks stadium and points all over Bricktown. It has links to the south edge of Mesta Park and Heritage Hills, and passes immediately adjacent to Deep Deuce. I think that's a lot of dots, considering it's the initial loop.

Remember, though, you have to have somewhere to go on the streetcar. I bet you the majority of people in Deep Deuce will be more excited about taking a streetcar to Midtown than they will be to be able to get right on the streetcar without a walk. We walk to Bricktown. We walk to the CBD, I walk to 9th street, but I drive to Midtown. That's my perspective, of course, but I bet others would say the same thing. Remember too, that 13th street allows the people in Heritage Hills and Mesta Park direct access to the streetcar. We've got a lot of people within reasonable walking distance of 13th street, where they can pick it up to go to the Ford Center, the new Central Park, Bricktown. It adds a lot of ridership.

To me, the logical route for Deep Deuce is one going down 4th street to the Health Sciences Center, perhaps looping around to 4th and Walker. That would allow people to live in Deep Deuce and ride to work at the Health Sciences Center, take the streetcar over to the Art Museum, the Civic Center, La Trattoria. This assumes that the railroad bridge is not a problem, however. Everyone needs to sit back and wait. This is the core loop and it doesn't mean other neighborhoods aren't in the committee's sights.

To be honest, I really loved the idea last year that downtown needed two separate lines to be served. You do have the Boulevard-to-Midtown line, and then a Bricktown-Deep Deuce-Core-Arts District circulator loop. That made a lot of sense.

I agree wholeheartedly that maybe there should be sacrifices (serving Deep Deuce) in order to have ONE line that goes from somewhere, to somewhere else. But why is "Mid-town" the arbitrary destination? Are we don't a downtown circulator system that will be expanded, or are we doing a line through town that "goes somewhere." Boulevard-to-Midtown is like trying to have it both ways, and I don't think the line that "goes somewhere" works if all you're doing is going from one side of downtown to another. The circulator system would seem to be the way to go if we're going to do as originally planned, and have this as a downtown starter system. If this is being expanded legitimately beyond downtown at first, then I think a line "going somewhere" works well.

The problem with that is that we don't have an obvious destination to go to from downtown. The best we have is the medical/capitol area, and that's nothing but 9-5 usage, so that would be a huge fail. We need evening and weekend riders, not just day riders. We don't have something like Utica Square located exactly 2 miles from downtown. We don't have a huge campus like UT with 60,000 students. We don't have a second downtown so close, either. So you have to make an arbitrary point that you're going to build up as the destination that the streetcar "goes to."

Why is that arbitrary point Mid-town?

To me, and I am only speaking for myself, Midtown has as much presence as anything that close to the CBD. There are restaurants, there are a few shops, there is a hospital, there is potential for park and ride, there is access for residents of Mesta Park and Heritage Hills. There is a lot of potential for development, there is proximity to SoSA. The western part of the Midtown loop has the potential to extend on to Classen and thence to either the Asian District or the Plaza District. I like the Bricktown to Midtown concept, personally.

Quick answer. Deep Deuce is dealt with in a potential later scenerio depending on the council or it is picked up on the "federal line" on the way to Health Sciences.

Same goes for the west side.