Okay, I'm excited that this is all coming to pass. I can barely believe that OKC is moving ahead with this. It's all sort of surreal.

That said, I have a few questions. I'm sure they're easy to answer, but I just don't know how some of this will work at this point.

First batch:
On a spoke and hub system, how do these streetcars turn around?
Once they get where they're going, is there a little loop and they just start going back the other direction? Or will there be two sets of track, so that "6 miles" is really 12?
If it travels the same track back the other direction, does that mean that there can only ever be one streetcar on a given spoke at any one time?
How long does that mean you'd have to wait until another car came along?
Would that make it difficult to decrease the time between cars at peak ridership times?

Second:
With streetcars running on regular public streets, what happens when some idiot slams his car into one of the streetcars?
How much of the system would they have to shut down in the case of a serious accident? Just that spoke?
These things get powered by... an overhead power line? How are those held aloft?
What happens in the case of regular old street maintenance, like repaving the road?
How will we run the track in Bricktown, will the brick streets there require any special treatment when we put in tracks?

Just curious on a lot of this stuff. Urban Pioneer?

I can try to answer your questions. We have streetcars up here in Tacoma and Seattle got a streetcar and a LRT (light rail transit) line this year. Nearby Vancouver Canada also has streetcar and a very extensive subway (3rd rail). You all already know Portland has streetcar in downtown and pretty extensive LRT.

1) up here, the streetcar does not turn around. There is a driver seat on both ends, so - when the streetcar gets to the terminus, the driver just goes to the 'back' and starts driving the other way.

in Tacoma, they have lots of double track for most of the route, with single track for only the last part of the central business district (then the thing just goes back the other way - but ride on the r/h side of the dual track once that starts up).

in Seattle, it is all single track - so obviously, there is only one train. I think there is a small dual track portion but it is only for switching/passing. I think the industry calls this "headway".

Obviously you can see, dual track has capacity advantages and I think this is the way OKC should go, at least for most of the routing. Obviously, single tracking has advantages too - mostly cost and right of way.

2) what happens when an idiot hits a train? They usually die or get sever trauma injuries.

when there is an accident, yes that spoke would shut down. Depending upon how severe the 'injury' to the train was, depends upon what needs to fix it.

Yes, the trains are powered by overhead 'catenary' wire, as are most light rail systems. This is the beauty but also problem with light rail and streetcar systems; it's overhead power so it can run on streets BUT it's not 3rd rail dedicated right of way so you can't have true rapid mass transit. ...

Maintenance will be similar to other streets, just coordinated with the transit agency - similar to how choo choo trains do it with city streets. brick streets dont matter, we have em in Tacoma and Seattle.

hope that helps

Tacoma's streetcar was funded by SoundTransit (our regional transit agency). SoundTransit does LRT in Seattle and regional bus in the Seattle Tacoma CSA. Seattle's streetcar was funded by the city of Seattle bonds (I think) as a seed project for South Lake Union/Vulcan (Paul Allen). I think Portland's streetcar was funded by their city bonds.

I agree with Spartan, let's not get too ahead of ourselves. We need an extensive system in the downtown districts - before we can start having spokes to here and there. Remember, this is streetcar - so you probably do not want to have any one spoke longer than 3 miles (because it would take way too long to have a streetcar going any further).

I think if we covered all of the downtown districts very well,

1) Sheridan E-W (Classen/Western to Lincoln) dual tracked
2) Walker or Hudson N-S (S 7th to 13th or so) single tracked
3) EK Gaylord/Broadway (S 7th to 13th) single tracked with dual portions
4) a deep deuce spur at 4th and Broadway/EK that runs up to Lincoln (and possibly into OHC)
5) a few single track connectors in the CBD area and maybe running on 4th

keep in mind, you can have a streetcar turn from one alignment to another, so it dont necessarily need to be a straight line and that's it (like a train or LRT). Streetcars can be quite versatile and I think that is how OKC should do it in the dense downtown CBD (plus opens up options for routes).

This should be phase 1. If we can't do OHC with our MAPS funds, maybe they could contribute $25M or so to have a circular run through there. (side note) I think it would be way cool if OU had a streetcar circular in place of that trolley, a real trolley line.

Plase 2+ could extend spokes up to Paseo/OCU/Asia District, Capitol campus, Capital Hill and Stockyard's City, and maybe into the Eastside a bit, and MAYBE Penn Square/Nichols Hills. That's as far as you'd want a streetcar to go, because it would move incredibly slow sharing right of way and ahving so many stops. If OKC got this extensive of a system, it would be the impetis for LRT to cover the rest of the city once we get density (of course, LRT has less stops but is faster - so justifies service to areas away from the inner core but still in OKC city limits).

Commuter rail is a different animal, since it is even less stops but runs on traditional rail corridors; we could actually do CR tomorrow. I envision the following routes:

EAST: Choctaw PnR-Tinker-MWC downtown-Del City PnR-DOWNTOWN
SOUTH: Purcell PnR-OU-Norman downtown-Crossroads PnR-DOWNTOWN
NORTH: Guthrie downtown-N. Edmond PnR-Edmond downtown (maybe)-S. Edmond PnR-N. 63rd TC-DOWNTOWN

Then there's the Heritage Train for the North East/Adventure District to DOWNTOWN and the West and South West alignments.

I honestly think we should probably go from streetcar straight to Commuter rail (or vice versa) and probably skip LRT for a while, because of the cost savings and the fact that OKC aint the densest city in the nation. .....

Exciting times - definitely!!!

Interesting question. I think it comes down to this: Do you believe that

a) the streetcar would have the most impact where it can front completely new development

or

b) the streetcar would have the most impact where it fronts existing buildings that are prime for mixed use redevelopment


I lean towards opinion B, but I'm not married to the idea.

I prefer the Broadway option.

Broadway just HAS to have a line.

Broadway just HAS to have a line.

Agree - seems like a no-brainer to me. It might not be in first phase but it has to have one.

What about the idea of a loop and then in the future having LRT spokes coming off? For example, the loop would go around the SW side of downtown and people could get off at stop at NW corner of the new park, get on a LRT down to the airport? The LRT would be fast and need less stops, but still provide access to fun destinations like Stockyards at the couple/few stops it has on the way to the airport. I think this idea (streetcar loop - LRT spokes) would be a good mix and allow future connections/expansion.

It'll be interesting to see how the current trolley system plays into this. If the streetcar can sufficiently serve what is now being served by the red and blue lines downtown, maybe we can redirect those resources to extend our transit reach. The Orange line currently goes west to stockyards and meridian, maybe the Red and Blue lines can be extended out, one to, say, the adventure district and maybe another to the Paseo and up Western. They could be very tourist destination oriented with limited stops that give visitors quick access to some of the city's other hot spots outside of the core and serve as sort of express lines for residents feeding into the core and the new streetcar system. The trolleys could be used as sort of a bridge as we expand our rail transit system outward from the core.

Does the city have a master plan for Lightrail? I think that there is money in a national fund that we missed because we didn't have a plan earlier this year. I feel the surrounding counties and OKC need to get together and put together a master plan and be ready for any money that is available to expand/build light rail to connect Guthrie to Norman, Choctaw to El Reno, then maybe a diagonal through the airport to Mustang. This would connect 75%% of the metro. A rail line to the Northwest would be very hard without an existing rail line or ROW going on that diagonal.

Here is a website that might help us get more money for our MAPS money for our streetcar system. The city could utilize these grants to possibly double miles!

Federal Transit Administration - Grant Programs (http://www.fta.dot.gov/funding/grants_financing_263.html)

Here's the link to the Fixed Guideway Study: OKFGS.org (http://www.okfgs.org/)

Here's the link to the Fixed Guideway Study: OKFGS.org (http://www.okfgs.org/)

Actually, this is the link to the Fixed Guideway Study:

Programs and Services > Transportation and Data Services > Fixed Guideway Systems (http://www.acogok.org/Programs_and_Services/Transportation_and_Data_Services/fixedguideway.asp)

Actually, this is the link to the Fixed Guideway Study:

Programs and Services > Transportation and Data Services > Fixed Guideway Systems (http://www.acogok.org/Programs_and_Services/Transportation_and_Data_Services/fixedguideway.asp)Thanks. Didn't have that one.

I don't know what exactly the city wants, but I think it's important to remember two things: (1) we have to assume this is the first phase, and (2) for it to be successful (and therefore get citizens to support future phases) it needs to hit a great number of highlights. Here are some things I think it should be within 2 block or less of (or right in front of if can be done efficiently):


Every existing hotel
Ford Center
Cox Convention Center
New Convention Center
Central Park
Every major skyscraper downtown
Myriad Gardens
New OCU Law School
County Courthouse
Federal Courthouse
OKC National Memorial
New Federal Office Building
Bricktown Ballpark
Most Bricktown restaurants/clubs
Harkins Theater
OKC Museum of Art
Civic Center
Downtown Library
Presbyterian Research Park
OU Health Sciences Center
St. Anthony Hospital
Boathouse Row


I would like to include the State Capitol Complex, a line or two up to 23rd/OCU, etc. but you can't fit everything in phase 1. So, after playing around with some routes tonight, I came up with the following, which is 5.9 miles long. I stuck to a hub and spoke system since the mayor has stated that is his preference. I assumed a transit hub at/along Santa Fe Station. I used 3 lines, all running through the hub. I think one of the keys is multiple lines using the same tracks for part of their run, otherwise 5-6 miles runs out quickly. I think phase two could including the following:


Extend east Green line to State Capitol
Extend south Blue line to Oklahoma River
Extend north Blue line and west Green line to some combination of NW 23rd, OCU, Paseo
Extend west Red line to Oklahoma River or Stockyards City


http://www.scribblemaps.com/#id=phLLuQTeZn

Anyway, feel free to crucify it, discuss it, or whatever.

Edit: Okay, the map should show up just above, but it doesn't. I inserted an image, which had me put in its website. Any idea why it won't come up?? Perhaps I'll try it as an attachment.....

man i sure hope whoever ends up deciding the route knows what they are doing

man i sure hope whoever ends up deciding the route knows what they are doing

No worries - I heard the mayor is bringing in our very own Thunder and LIL_WAYNE_4_PREZ to lead the project.

No worries - I heard the mayor is bringing in our very own Thunder and LIL_WAYNE_4_PREZ to lead the project.

The rear of the car will have a Burger King Express, and the whole thing will be a giant fountain on the outside.

The rear of the car will have a Burger King Express, and the whole thing will be a giant fountain on the outside.

That pretty well sums it up. Thread closed.

I don't know what exactly the city wants, but I think it's important to remember two things: (1) we have to assume this is the first phase, and (2) for it to be successful (and therefore get citizens to support future phases) it needs to hit a great number of highlights. Here are some things I think it should be within 2 block or less of (or right in front of if can be done efficiently):


Every existing hotel
Ford Center
Cox Convention Center
New Convention Center
Central Park
Every major skyscraper downtown
Myriad Gardens
New OCU Law School
County Courthouse
Federal Courthouse
OKC National Memorial
New Federal Office Building
Bricktown Ballpark
Most Bricktown restaurants/clubs
Harkins Theater
OKC Museum of Art
Civic Center
Downtown Library
Presbyterian Research Park
OU Health Sciences Center
St. Anthony Hospital
Boathouse Row


I would like to include the State Capitol Complex, a line or two up to 23rd/OCU, etc. but you can't fit everything in phase 1. So, after playing around with some routes tonight, I came up with the following, which is 5.9 miles long. I stuck to a hub and spoke system since the mayor has stated that is his preference. I assumed a transit hub at/along Santa Fe Station. I used 3 lines, all running through the hub. I think one of the keys is multiple lines using the same tracks for part of their run, otherwise 5-6 miles runs out quickly. I think phase two could including the following:


Extend east Green line to State Capitol
Extend south Blue line to Oklahoma River
Extend north Blue line and west Green line to some combination of NW 23rd, OCU, Paseo
Extend west Red line to Oklahoma River or Stockyards City


http://www.scribblemaps.com/#id=phLLuQTeZn

Anyway, feel free to crucify it, discuss it, or whatever.

Edit: Okay, the map should show up just above, but it doesn't. I inserted an image, which had me put in its website. Any idea why it won't come up?? Perhaps I'll try it as an attachment.....

Even though I favor the loop over the hub and spoke system, I like this (the attachment with your post). I do question if it's really only 5.9 miles, but if it is, that's awesome.

Although I like all the areas covered by the design, I suspect someone is going to want the line to go closer to Union Station, and, if we build a convention center anywhere else, I think you almost have to have it stop there. Otherwise, you've got all the spots I'd like to see accessed on your plan, and since it's not a closed loop it would be very easy to add on to it.

Although I like all the areas covered by the design, I suspect someone is going to want the line to go closer to Union Station, and, if we build a convention center anywhere else, I think you almost have to have it stop there. Otherwise, you've got all the spots I'd like to see accessed on your plan, and since it's not a closed loop it would be very easy to add on to it.I've been holding off asking this question because it will show I haven't paid much attention to the transit issue. This map shows the various lines making 90 degree turns, I would have thought they had to travel in more of a straight line. They will be on fixed rail won't they?

Yes, the streetcars are on rail but they make bent (curved rail) that can make corner turn.

Although I like all the areas covered by the design, I suspect someone is going to want the line to go closer to Union Station, and, if we build a convention center anywhere else, I think you almost have to have it stop there. Otherwise, you've got all the spots I'd like to see accessed on your plan, and since it's not a closed loop it would be very easy to add on to it.

I couldn't find any pictures, a friend was telling me that the San Diego streetcar actually traverses through their convention center thus providing direct disenbarkment and entry within the building itself.

I couldn't find any pictures, a friend was telling me that the San Diego streetcar actually traverses through their convention center thus providing direct disenbarkment and entry within the building itself.

That would be really cool.

I wasn't sure it it is workable, but if we used the Cotton Mill site as the convention center, I was wondering if you could somehow have the transit hub either attached or adjacent. It's very close to the intersection of north-south/east-west rail lines that we've got, and that would make a logical location for a hub, if the Santa Fe building is too small (not sure if that's the case or not)

Bingo Betts! Logical possibility. The hub study will reflect the right choice. I would say though their mght be some resistence from the Convention Center folk if they think it will affect spending on square feet.

If we combined the convention center and the hub, couldn't we save costs and just make the single building larger?

I do advocate for linear lines as they are more easily expandable versus loops and the mayor supports that concept.

I am also a proponent of a linear line concept.

In choosing the location of the lines, I think it is important to determine what we are trying to accomplish with the streetcar system. Certainly, connecting some popular, relatively high-traffic nodes is important, but the streetcar is likely to provide the most long-term value to the city if we use it as an impetus for new development at densities that can sustain transit into the future.

Thus, while Sheridan between Bricktown and the new Devon Tower is an obvious segment, it would be advantageous to extend the line further west along Sheridan and/or Main to catalyze that area (which it seems is a requisite of the OCU Law School proposal). Also, N. Broadway has the right-of-way and a wonderful mix of built fabric, but remains mostly underdeveloped. Streetcar along this stretch would have a major impact, and could be extended south along Robinson, in the future, to tie into the Central Park area and eventually the Oklahoma River.

--

On a different note, just to throw some outside-the-box thought, what if we connected Bricktown to Penn Square Mall via Sheridan and Classen (which is 6.1 miles). Then you would give downtown residents access to everything, including multiple grocery stores. Dense historic neighborhoods along Classen, which were built for streetcar, would be able to commute to work. And Penn Square could serve as a park&ride facility that is convenient to thousands.

See route: from:sheridan and mickey mantle to:35.466542,-97.526751 to:penn square mall - Google Maps (http://bit.ly/6inDJ9)

This is not necessarily my favorite route, but it does have some advantages.

I couldn't find any pictures, a friend was telling me that the San Diego streetcar actually traverses through their convention center thus providing direct disenbarkment and entry within the building itself.

Doesn't the one in Denver do that too?

I couldn't find any pictures, a friend was telling me that the San Diego streetcar actually traverses through their convention center thus providing direct disenbarkment and entry within the building itself.

Not sure on San Diego, but this is true of the Denver Convention Center.

Whoops, soonerguru beat me to it.

Bingo Betts! Logical possibility. The hub study will reflect the right choice. I would say though their mght be some resistence from the Convention Center folk if they think it will affect spending on square feet.

I agree that Betts is on the right track. (Don't you love puns?)

I would also think instead of opposing something like that, the convention center people would think of it as a win/win kind of thing. It makes a lot of sense.

I couldn't find any pictures, a friend was telling me that the San Diego streetcar actually traverses through their convention center thus providing direct disenbarkment and entry within the building itself.

How convenient. That way the convention goer doesn't even ever interact with the street environs surrounding the convention center. He/she can just go from airport to hotel via cab, and ride the rail into the meeting. Maybe we can even put restaurants inside the thing so that they don't have to leave it EVER, not even to eat.

How convenient. That way the convention goer doesn't even ever interact with the street environs surrounding the convention center. He/she can just go from airport to hotel via cab, and ride the rail into the meeting. Maybe we can even put restaurants inside the thing so that they don't have to leave it EVER, not even to eat.

VERY good point. Makes me think of how great we thought the tunnels were in the '70s.
Visitor Question at 12 Noon on a weekday: Where's the....uh....like....you know....the people????
A: Oh, they're underground.
Visitor: Oh, huh. Bustling place you have here.

Well you know they're going to try and have a full-blown food court in the convention center. That's a trend that convention centers today feature restaurants, much like how they're putting one or two inside the Ford Center.

What if we had the food court in the park instead? Convention goers would have to cross the street and walk 500 feet or so into the park and find vendors. Or better idea: Put the center across the boulevard from Bricktown. Bricktown would be your food court, and LB would see some infill...

...Maybe we can even put restaurants inside the thing so that they don't have to leave it EVER, not even to eat.

Think they are proposing to do just that...retail, restaurants etc (fairly certain I read an article towards the end of the campaign that indicated that).

Also, Disney World's Monorail runs thru the Contemporary Hotel (as opposed to a stop outside).

Just about any sort of planning (project 180, streetcars etc) they could learn a lot from the way Disney has done things. From a design point there was an excellent coffee table book several years ago "The Art of Walt Disney" that showed the amount of detail and careful thought put into such mundane things as trash cans (everything "fit" into the areas "theme"). Along those lines, maybe opposition to a spoke going thru historical neighborhoods (which as pointed out had streetcars), instead (strictly from an asthetic point) they resembled classic streetcars.

I agree on the amount of detail that goes into aesthetics at Disney. The problem though is that Disney is a term I and others have used to criticize Lower Bricktown and other new urbanist projects in other cities. Downtowns aren't supposed to be spotless and immaculate. They're supposed to be vibrant, gritty, lively, and busy.

I agree on the amount of detail that goes into aesthetics at Disney. The problem though is that Disney is a term I and others have used to criticize Lower Bricktown and other new urbanist projects in other cities. Downtowns aren't supposed to be spotless and immaculate. They're supposed to be vibrant, gritty, lively, and busy.I do think that Disney's attention to detail is worth noting although I, too, dislike the make-believe feeling.

And details that can make an area really inviting and people oriented need not necessarily cost a fortune either.

Denver:

http://www.goeshow.com/parking/2009/images/convention-center.jpg

Source (http://www.goeshow.com/parking/2009/images/convention-center.jpg)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2124/2286643757_c9f428bee2.jpg

Source (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2124/2286643757_c9f428bee2.jpg)

See here's the thing: Other cities are making mistakes. Urban planning is not an exact science. It has not been completely revolutionized to the point where everyone all of a sudden realizes the mistakes and doesn't make them anymore. Mistakes are still going to be made. I strongly believe this is where Denver and San Diego have made a mistake.

San Diego's overall convention facility is a bit overkill in my opinion. It shadows over the vicinity and its architecture is so futuristic that it's almost not even tasteful. It sort of turns avant garde into holy crap guard your eyes.

I think the Denver CC looks pretty cool.

The site is great from a pedestrian standpoint, as the front just comes right up to the street. It's just a minor flaw that the LRT going through the convention center means that pedestrians may not take advantage of the great pedestrian access.

Not sure where your neighborhood is, but I know that on N. Youngs Blvd., just S. of NW 23rd, there's still a small section of tracks in the pavement.

I live in Crestwood, at the intersection of Miller Ave, and NW 16th. I LOVE riding my bike through the neighborhoods following the old routes, and I do know the tracks that you are referring to, in the intersection of NW 19th and Youngs, I shed a metaphorical tear every time my wheels pass over them.


I think that there are a lot of great ideas going around here. I loved EBAH's account of how much he/she would appreciate actually bringing the streetcar back to the neighborhoods it once traveled through. I can also appreciate the perspective that we SHOULD have a stop at OCU Law, the Boathouses, etc.. it should go through Bricktown, Devon should have a stop, etc etc..

So many good ideas.

Let's focus on an organic system that covers downtown. Just downtown. Nothing else. If it stops through Bricktown and past Devon and creates some really cool opportunities along Automobile Alley, that's great. But we just need a starter system with this 6 miles. No doubt that we have a big big downtown area to cover, including a lot of areas we never would have considered downtown a few years ago. Let's just cover as much and try and have an organic system approach with this first step.

It's good that we have so many good ideas. Let's also make plans for a Phase 2 that can include a second loop that goes further out, to Classen and down to the Boathouses, and maybe the State Capitol.. but unfortunately those things are undoubtedly located too far out from the center of the action for us to include in the 6 mile segment.

But by all means, let's make plans to include these things with street car further down the road..

Oh I couldn't agree more. I realize that this should be a "starter set" and and that keeping it a quickly moving centralized loop. I will be thrilled as long as it can effectively link Capital Complex, Medical Center, and CBD together. I think that this will prove vital to building a real retail and dining district adjacent to the CBD. The idea of large amounts of workers in all three of those enormous employment centers all having direct access to the shops and eateries in Midtown, Film Row, Automobile Alley, etc. just makes my mind race. Also, the shoppers/diners coming in would be on foot, making them MUCH more likely to make unexpected stops (WOW shops in OKC actually getting foot traffic, like on actual feet). To me at this time, it is mostly about getting the thousands of workers (and their wallets) in to downtown, for lunch, happy hours, and on into the evenings, as well as bringing the now somewhat sequestered Bricktown/inner downtown convention visitors, tourists, business travelers, sports fans, and general entertainment seekers into parts of downtown that currently feel a bit outside of walkability (previously mentioned districts). Which brings me to another question, in other communities with downtown circulators, how late do these things run? Will they be there for me at last call?

Oh, and I am male...

I do think that Disney's attention to detail is worth noting although I, too, dislike the make-believe feeling.

And details that can make an area really inviting and people oriented need not necessarily cost a fortune either.

Don't get me wrong, there are some drawbacks to the Disney approach (make believe, too anti-septic). Am am just saying no matter what you are talking about, be it Mass Trans, design of streets, walkways, lighting, buildings, and even something as mundane as a trash can, every thing "fits".

Unfortunately we will never know exactly how a planned City would have looked like Disney style. EPCOT was to be that realization but after Walt's death, the Company went another way and used the name to put on another theme park. EPCOT stood for Experimental Prototype Community Of Tomorrow. It was to be a fully planned functioning city. There was even a model of it at one point on display in Tomorrowland (think it was a part of the People Mover ride). If memory serves, it was a multiple spoke and wheel layout (as opposed to the typical grid).

I was a Disney fanatic as a kid and lived in the Disney World area during my high school/college days. Had season passes and practically lived there. Definitely spoiled when it comes to other theme parks as a result. When Disney builds a indoor mountain roller coaster attraction, they sent there designers half-way around the world to do research, then they built the thing 360 degrees. They didn't just take pictures and make sketches of what the native village at the base of the mountain looked like, but they purchased artifacts to use in the attraction. When Six Flags did it, they built a corrogated steel building to house the coaster and painted a mural on the side.

Am basically opposed to the way naming rights are currently done (selling rights to a building that they don't own). Disney has the corporate tie-in stuff down to a science. They have corporate sponsorhip all over the parks (they could easily pay for everything themselves, but offset costs through these deals). The primary difference between the way Disney does it and the way Naming Rights are sold, is the name of the attraction is decided by Disney, they just sell the sponsorship rights to it. No need to change the name of the ride every time a sponsor ship changes, just the sponsorship signage. For example, it wasn't Kodak's It's a Small World, it was It's a Small World sponsored by Kodak. Just think, how many different names has the Ballpark had now? 3 different names (same sponsor) but since the company kept changing it's name, the Ballpark's name kept changing too (most just call it "The Brick")

Mayor Cornett even expressed a similar thought back when he was a councilman and voted AGAINST the Ford naming rights. He stated he didn't have anything against Ford, he just thought the name of the Arena should be promoting Oklahoma City and not some corporation.

But to get back to the subject, there are a lot of lessons (good & bad) can be learned from looking Disney's way.

I think the Denver CC looks pretty cool.

It's extremely nice but more than OKC would be ready for I think. I just hope they have the forethought to build the new center in such a way it can be expanded later on if/when warranted. One of the really nice features of the Denver center is a 6000 seat theater in the round for more intimate concerts or lectures.

BTW

In the Denver pic above, what is the large (scale in comparison to the cars etc) shadowy figure (Bear?) just to the left of center that looks like it is leaning against the glass and peering in?

BTW

In the Denver pic above, what is the large (scale in comparison to the cars etc) shadowy figure (Bear?) just to the left of center that looks like it is leaning against the glass and peering in?

Big arse bear. Kinda kewl actually.

How convenient. That way the convention goer doesn't even ever interact with the street environs surrounding the convention center. He/she can just go from airport to hotel via cab, and ride the rail into the meeting. Maybe we can even put restaurants inside the thing so that they don't have to leave it EVER, not even to eat.

I think that this is a very important discussion. There are some things to keep in mind so that we "frame" the discussion accurately.

Streetcars will have the reverse effect with conventioneers. In theory, having it literally interface with a new convention center would have the reverse effect of isolating people. They are designed for short trips to expand the walking range of a pedestrian. Right now, you might have people walk to Bricktown from Cox or two blocks to other areas.

What the streetcar will do is better connect Bricktown but also distribute the "load" of people over a larger area thus expanding the positive experience of the visitor while also expanding the economic impact of that person to shops, restaurants, and stores not in the convention district.

So really, if a commuter system were installed from the airport directly, it becomes a "convenience" express device while the streetcar counteracts that isolation. It is important to differentiate the two.

In my own experiences, I take a cab from the airport or transit where possible and do not stop at places along the way anyways. I don't know about other people.

With the MAPS 3 vote decided in the affirmative, the issue is at least partially resolved for now. But it will come back when it's time to lauch regional rail in earnest or expand the starter streetcar system.

Monday, December 14th at 2:00 pm Oklahoma City time there is an interesting webcast discussion entitled Moving Minds: Conservatives and Public Transportation (http://t4america.org/blog/2009/12/14/still-time-to-register-for-todays-discussion-on-conservatives-and-public-transportation/) scheduled.

I think that this is a very important discussion. There are some things to keep in mind so that we "frame" the discussion accurately.

Streetcars will have the reverse effect with conventioneers. In theory, having it literally interface with a new convention center would have the reverse effect of isolating people. They are designed for short trips to expand the walking range of a pedestrian. Right now, you might have people walk to Bricktown from Cox or two blocks to other areas.

What the streetcar will do is better connect Bricktown but also distribute the "load" of people over a larger area thus expanding the positive experience of the visitor while also expanding the economic impact of that person to shops, restaurants, and stores not in the convention district.

So really, if a commuter system were installed from the airport directly, it becomes a "convenience" express device while the streetcar counteracts that isolation. It is important to differentiate the two.

In my own experiences, I take a cab from the airport or transit where possible and do not stop at places along the way anyways. I don't know about other people.

I agree with you on airport-to-hotel travel. I think though my point was just warning against this idea of a convention center where you can do it all, for lack of a better term off the top of my head. I agree with the C2S talkers in that it's a shame that convention centers are seen as "dead space" that's only in use during conventions. And I agree that something needs to be done about that. However you don't fix that by loading it down with bells and whistles on the INTERIOR. You fix that by loading it down with bells and whistles on the EXTERIOR. That doesn't mean a plaza, either. Plazas are the scourge of urban planning in my opinion.

You know how sometimes you see a building and you don't know what's in it? Like some old churches have been converted to shops or lofts, or the old houses along NW 23rd or NW 9th that have been restored into trendy boutiques.. what if we designed a convention center that built on the Columbus center, that looked like and interacted with the street just like any Bricktown or A-Alley block but was in fact, actually a convention center. That's where I think the solution to the convention center problem lies, is in masking the typical superblock structure as something else. Unfortunately the best most cities have been able to come up with is just more "starchitecture."

"Hey, how do we make this superblock structure fit in with goals of urbanism and sustainability?"
"I know, let's just have NORMAN FOSTER design it! That'll solve it all.."

what if we designed a convention center that built on the Columbus center, that looked like and interacted with the street just like any Bricktown or A-Alley block but was in fact, actually a convention center. That's where I think the solution to the convention center problem lies, is in masking the typical superblock structure as something else.

This is a really valuable concept. Luckily we have a decade to mold how this issue is perceived by government officials and hopefully such a superblock-breaking design can prevail.

Ah I see. I thought we were talking about transit. Lol. The only way this convention center won't end up being a big box and create vast walking distances of nothing is to "wrap" it with shops, stores, or housing. Let's use space wisely and give someone a reason to walk on the sidewalk in front of it.

I was at the streetcar conference in Fort Worth on Friday. Rick Cain, Larry Hopper, and myself went down there to represent the city. It was a very enjoyable event.

One of the most striking things I heard came from the former Mayor of Charlotte. He was talking about new schools that Charlotte had built and how he wished that the development of the light rail should have interefaced with the school in lieu of school buses.

I got to thinking about this. I guess older children use the subway in New York. It probably helps develop independence. It occurred to me that we still are two years off before we start on the downtown school. Why not consider interfacing it with the streetcar?

Ah I see. I thought we were talking about transit. Lol. The only way this convention center won't end up being a big box and create vast walking distances of nothing is to "wrap" it with shops, stores, or housing. Let's use space wisely and give someone a reason to walk on the sidewalk in front of it.

I agree with you. I think transit was a point I made but I didn't really mean it to detract from the overall theme I was just trying to convey. I still think that putting a streetcar route going through the center as opposed to on the streetfront, so as to draw the convention goers out, would be a mistake that could worsen the effect of a convention fortress..

I agree with you. I think transit was a point I made but I didn't really mean it to detract from the overall theme I was just trying to convey. I still think that putting a streetcar route going through the center as opposed to on the streetfront, so as to draw the convention goers out, would be a mistake that could worsen the effect of a convention fortress..

My opinion is that many people are overthinking this process. There is no one perfect desicion on the planning of the convention center. I have been to various convention centers around the country and I was never greatly influenced by any of the things being discussed as to what I would want to do after arriving as to seeing other parts of the area or how I would get there.

My opinion is that many people are overthinking this process. There is no one perfect desicion on the planning of the convention center. I have been to various convention centers around the country and I was never greatly influenced by any of the things being discussed as to what I would want to do after arriving as to seeing other parts of the area or how I would get there.I haven't been to a convention in a long while so things may well be different now.

But I remember going to one in LA and being told by several people to wait on the buses to return us to our hotel rather than taking a taxi and for certain to not even think about walking which would have been pretty far.

A great contrast was one I attended just prior to that in Salt Lake City where I was able to just wander around the entire area around the center.

But as I look back over the time when I was attending conventions I am surprised by how few actually amount to much in my memory.

My opinion is that many people are overthinking this process. There is no one perfect desicion on the planning of the convention center. I have been to various convention centers around the country and I was never greatly influenced by any of the things being discussed as to what I would want to do after arriving as to seeing other parts of the area or how I would get there.

Agreed, I go to 10 a year and with the exception of any in Vegas, the general location around the convention had zero influence on my decisions to go or on my decisions on what to do recreationally while I was at a convention.

And yes, this includes 2 that happen right here in OKC, one usually at the Biltmore and the other at the Cox center.

Agreed, I go to 10 a year and with the exception of any in Vegas, the general location around the convention had zero influence on my decisions to go or on my decisions on what to do recreationally while I was at a convention.

And yes, this includes 2 that happen right here in OKC, one usually at the Biltmore and the other at the Cox center.

You might think differently if your convention planner picked a real crappy place with nothing safe for you to do after 5PM.

http://www.genesisarena.com/
(don't let the picture on the web site fool you - it is in Gary, IN)

You might think differently if your convention planner picked a real crappy place with nothing safe for you to do after 5PM.

Genesis Center - The Largest Meeting Facility in the Northwest Indiana & South Suburban Chicago AreaS (http://www.genesisarena.com/)
(don't let the picture on the web site fool you - it is in Gary, IN)

Like I said.

1 at the Biltmore and 1 at the Cox Center.

I've gone to Conventions in Wisconsin, -25 outside with nothing at all to do but drink in the hotel bar or sleep. It didn't change my mind about returning to go to the same convention there again. I went because of the subject matter of the Convention, not because of the location.

If there was a Rodeo Belt Buckle Art Convention in a city with the most beautiful Streetcar system in the world, every possible shopping experience and breathtaking natural beauty in the form of parks and artwork, I still wouldn't go because I have zero interest in the subject matter of the Convention.

I was at the streetcar conference in Fort Worth on Friday. Rick Cain, Larry Hopper, and myself went down there to represent the city. It was a very enjoyable event.

One of the most striking things I heard came from the former Mayor of Charlotte. He was talking about new schools that Charlotte had built and how he wished that the development of the light rail should have interefaced with the school in lieu of school buses.

I got to thinking about this. I guess older children use the subway in New York. It probably helps develop independence. It occurred to me that we still are two years off before we start on the downtown school. Why not consider interfacing it with the streetcar?

Re-posting this because it got lost. What do people think about schools meshing with transit? Should kids use a local transit system instead of school buses?

My opinion is that many people are overthinking this process. There is no one perfect desicion on the planning of the convention center. I have been to various convention centers around the country and I was never greatly influenced by any of the things being discussed as to what I would want to do after arriving as to seeing other parts of the area or how I would get there.

I agree with this. From a convention goers perspective the specifics about the convention center don't matter nearly as much as they do to the locals who have to live around it. That's why ALL of the bells and whistles it gets need to be directed at the local community around it and NOT conventions. The reality is that conventions are not going to come to OKC specifically because we have this certain feature with our center and another center doesn't, or because the interior looks a certain way as opposed to the interior at the DLL Convention Center (Pittsburgh) or whatever.

The reality is that convention centers get up or down consideration, is it a nice center, or is it not a nice center. Period. Then they will consider the strategic advantages of the city, whether the center is adequate to host the event, and the most important thing they'll weigh is the proposal from the city to host the event. Whether the convention center has a streetcar stop in the middle of it, a food court in the heart of, just a real bona fide convention fortress, makes no difference whatsoever.

Convention goers adapt to whatever city they're in. A convention in God-awful Phoenix (although it's getting a LOT better and more urban there) is just the same as a convention in Minneapolis. You might enjoy the idea of being in Minneapolis a lot more (as long as it's summer), but still, you get the idea from a practical standpoint..

I think such things may affect where a convention chooses to locate more so than whether a convention attender comes. And it's also about having the best environment when can when they get here, even if they would have come either way.


what if we designed a convention center that built on the Columbus center, that looked like and interacted with the street just like any Bricktown or A-Alley block but was in fact, actually a convention center. That's where I think the solution to the convention center problem lies, is in masking the typical superblock structure as something else.

I'm 100% with you on this.