I have to agree with both of these. When the day comes that we have more than one type of mass transit in Oklahoma City, we need a mass transit card that works for all modalities, IMO.

We will need day and monthly passes, to make transit simply.

Again, check out Chicago for their painful transition to whatever they call their transit card from tokens, and also their pass structure. They finally made it work, but it had a few kinks along the way. Now I think their card works on buses, El/subway, and PACE buses (suburban), but not on Metra (heavy rail) trains. www.chicago-card.com

Why no Uptown? I think if we're looking for a neighborhood to extend streetcar to, just do Uptown because it has enormous potential itself, it's closer in, and it's a good baseline for extensions to Plaza, Paseo, Asian, etc. Also, keep in mind OKC's block sizes are huge, so I just think we should stick to Rob/Broad.

When you say Uptown, we are talking 23rd street, but where on 23rd is Uptown?, Robinson ? Walker ? Classen ?

Currently if you were to ride a streetcar to Uptown 23rd and Robinson, you would get off and wonder why you wasted your time (with a few exceptions). Now if you traveled further north along Robinson and ventured into Paseo you would now be interested. I want to reach out to what we have now, because as we all know Okc can be slow to further the developments.

No matter the outcome, I would love to see the streetcar reach as far as possible. I would vote Paseo due to the density that currently exists, both resident apartment living, dining, art galleries and retail. Also I believe it would be a destination for the locals while giving the tourists a welcome alternative from Bricktown.

I keep saying that we really need to reach as many people as possible and give our inner city neighborhoods the shot in the arm, that has been seen with Bricktown and other parts of downtown.

I understand your point of view, but don't agree with it. When I went to Seattle for the rail conference, there were people there from all over the world. Every one of them was say couplets, couplets, couplets...

I don't believe that couplets should be everywhere. There may be "double tracking" that needs to occur on some streets. But Robinson is undeniably a great system "spine" as it goes all the way through from Edgemere to Capitol Hill. Then there are all the people who insist that it go down Automobile Alley. I agree that it needs to go down Broadway. Auto Alley brings a great deal of potential ridership to the system. But keep in mind when you talk about people walking blocks, Broadway is bordered by a freight rail line a block away, and a highway, two blocks away. From an urbanity standpoint, the transit mall is "centered" on a great "axis."

There are three other big fundamental reasons that we are talking about this.

1. We want straight lines without "jogs" for long distances. Easier to interpret on a map or give people directions.

2. It costs us a great deal less on utility relocation as we are "shifting" utilities from one side of the street to the other, rather than trying to bury everything 6' deep.

3. Aesthetically, if we do an overhead wire, a couplet allows for a single overhead wire with guide arms on one side of the street. Guidelines in such a configuration would only be necessary at major turns. A double track configuration also creates a great deal more "visual pollution" as there are wires spanning the entire width of the street to keep the lines secure.

For the people at the conference, the utility savings were the biggest reason, spreading developmental impact was second, creating a situation where people might find a rail line easier by making it possible for the to "run into it" sooner was another, and minimizing visual pollution was something else that became obvious in studying the systems..

Here is my philosophy; I would rather serve a smaller area really well than serve an area twice the size but only half as good. This is the problem mass transit in OKC suffer from now.

A few things I have learned over the last week. Jogs in the track are not a big deal. It is more important that the streetcar goes where the people want to go than it for the people to go where the streetcar wants to take them. The streetcar exists for the rider. Nearly every system I have seen puts the track down the middle of the road so any utility relocation would come from the center of the roads to the shoulders. The new systems use induction technology so there are no overhead wires at all.

I don’t think it is possible for anyone to serve more points with fewer miles of tracks than what I posted earlier.

I'm going to disagree with one thing, Kerry. Jogs ARE a big deal. Simplicity is key. First of all, every jog has multiple corners. I think Urban Pioneer will tell you that corners make streetcars far more complicated for a variety of reasons he has outlined before. One of the reasons we're all talking about a grid system for buses is that straight lines make everything easier, including passenger use and understanding of route. I believe the same holds true for streetcars. Remember, many people going downtown who will use the streetcar who live in OKC don't know downtown well, much less visitors. The last thing you want to tell someone is: Well, if you're south of 4th street, you can pick up the streetcar on Broadway. But, it turns on 4th and goes up Robinson to 10th, but if you're north of tenth you need to pick it up on _______. I suspect most residents, if you polled them, couldn't give you the names of 4 north-south streets downtown, much less the east-west streets, which don't even keep the same name throughout. It's much simpler to say something like...."Pick the streetcar up going north on Robinson, or if you want to go south go one block east to Broadway. You can't miss it." We don't have to go everywhere....we just have to be withing reasonable walking distance.

Somehow every system in the world has jogs all over the place though. People won't stay ignorant forever and if they are one of the residents that live in the area this thing is going to serve then they are already well versed in downtown OKC. It isn't like it the hardest downtown in the world to get around in. Plus, I have no fear of somone for Denver, Sacramento, Pittsburgh, or Paris being unable to find a streetcar that turns a couple of time, so long as it take them where they want to go once they are on it. I would rather they get directions to the streetcar than to have to get direction to their destination AFTER they get off of it. Now a country bumpkin from Carter County on a day trip to the big city might be a different story. As for coupling I can see it now, when someone gets off the first thing they are going to have to ask is where do I go to get back on to go the other way.

Again, we'll have to agree to disagree. And, the map would be easy to understand so i'm not sure anyone would have to ask how to get back going the other direction. You would know that if you get off on one street, the line going the reverse direction will be exactly one block over, throughout the entire route.

The new systems use induction technology so there are no overhead wires at all.

Whihc cities are using induction technology? I'm only aware of the private Bombardier test track in Augsburg.

Whihc cities are using induction technology? I'm only aware of the private Bombardier test track in Augsburg.

Yea - I worded that incorrectly. The new streetcar technology uses induction. I don't know of any system where it is actually in use.

I'm going to disagree with one thing, Kerry. Jogs ARE a big deal. Simplicity is key. First of all, every jog has multiple corners. I think Urban Pioneer will tell you that corners make streetcars far more complicated for a variety of reasons he has outlined before. One of the reasons we're all talking about a grid system for buses is that straight lines make everything easier, including passenger use and understanding of route. I believe the same holds true for streetcars. Remember, many people going downtown who will use the streetcar who live in OKC don't know downtown well, much less visitors. The last thing you want to tell someone is: Well, if you're south of 4th street, you can pick up the streetcar on Broadway. But, it turns on 4th and goes up Robinson to 10th, but if you're north of tenth you need to pick it up on _______. I suspect most residents, if you polled them, couldn't give you the names of 4 north-south streets downtown, much less the east-west streets, which don't even keep the same name throughout. It's much simpler to say something like...."Pick the streetcar up going north on Robinson, or if you want to go south go one block east to Broadway. You can't miss it." We don't have to go everywhere....we just have to be withing reasonable walking distance.

Have to agree with you, the NOLA St. Charles and Canal St. streetcars are pretty much straight lines on the one street that they're named after, extremely simple and intuitive and the usage on them is quite high by both local residents (to/from work and to/from school) and tourists, from what I remember.

Again, check out Chicago for their painful transition to whatever they call their transit card from tokens, and also their pass structure. They finally made it work, but it had a few kinks along the way. Now I think their card works on buses, El/subway, and PACE buses (suburban), but not on Metra (heavy rail) trains. www.chicago-card.com

You're right. For awhile too, the card wouldn't let you use it more than once on the same bus, which meant my daughters could use their card and I'd have to drag out change. They've got the phone app that allows you to track buses though, which is very cool.

Yea - I worded that incorrectly. The new streetcar technology uses induction. I don't know of any system where it is actually in use.

I thought the Bombardier induction technology was in use in Marseilles, France, but I could be wrong.

I thought the Bombardier induction technology was in use in Marseilles, France, but I could be wrong.

I think you might be thinking of the Alstom Ground-level Power Supply (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-level_power_supply) system also known as surface current collection or Alimentation par Sol (APS).

"It is a modern method of third-rail electrical pick-up for street trams. It was invented for the Bordeaux tramway, which was constructed from 2000 and opened in 2003. Currently, this is the only place it is used but there were and are proposals to install it elsewhere...Before use in Bordeaux, APS was tested and proved viable on a short section of reserved-track tramway in the French city of Marseilles."

The system is basically a central third rail in certain limited aesthetically sensitive areas. Only a small section of the third rail becomes live when the tram is directly over that area.

There were considerable teething troubles during installation but apparently after a lot of effort the system is now working. There were plans to install this system elsewhere and enthusiasm for the system in other cities waned though it's interesting to see that Tours is now going ahead with it - http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/urban-rail/single-view/view/tours-selects-citadis-and-aps.html.

No coupling in New Orleans except for a small portion caused by one way streets. As for the early days of OKC, there were jogs and turns in the tracks everywhere. I am not saying it need to turn 50 times but it does have to go the destination people want to go to. I don't think 'getting close' is good enough.

When you say Uptown, we are talking 23rd street, but where on 23rd is Uptown?, Robinson ? Walker ? Classen ?

Currently if you were to ride a streetcar to Uptown 23rd and Robinson, you would get off and wonder why you wasted your time (with a few exceptions). Now if you traveled further north along Robinson and ventured into Paseo you would now be interested. I want to reach out to what we have now, because as we all know Okc can be slow to further the developments.

No matter the outcome, I would love to see the streetcar reach as far as possible. I would vote Paseo due to the density that currently exists, both resident apartment living, dining, art galleries and retail. Also I believe it would be a destination for the locals while giving the tourists a welcome alternative from Bricktown.

I keep saying that we really need to reach as many people as possible and give our inner city neighborhoods the shot in the arm, that has been seen with Bricktown and other parts of downtown.

This is an interesting reply. I don't mean to give Uptown a stop, I mean to give Uptown an entire line. 23rd is an awesome, underrated street. 23rd has the potential to become once again the main street for the north side, as it was once. I would also contend that there are more things to do along 23rd from Robinson to Western, than there are in the Paseo (which is a much smaller area) or on the ride from 23rd up to the Paseo (which is a more comparable stretch). And in all honesty, 23rd is at least as vibrant as the Paseo is when there's not an event.

Things along 23rd: Blue note, a dog salon, fast food, several design-oriented firms, Cheever's, Market C, the Tower Theater (under renovation and will have retail in front, including a party store), several Asian restaurants, Big Truck Tacos, Cuppies and Joe, other cool businesses in the Cottages (Phase 2 of which is under construction), hair salons, the Someplace Else Deli, the Gold Dome (including the Prohibition Room), and The Classen. Plus some really good residential density within 2 blocks all along the entire stretch from Robinson to Western.

I think it would be a hit, especially with the theater. Looking beyond the starter system, 23rd is already a very nice street, it's just not as vibrant as it could be. It is surrounded on all sides by good neighborhoods, with very few exceptions all the way from 235 to 44. It's puzzling that 23rd has so many run-down parts of it and yet for virtually the entire stretch it's surrounded by good neighborhoods. Furthermore, it still has a good building stock left, and it's also the most significant E/W street on the north side and has pretty decent traffic counts--meaning that despite not fulfilling hopes, it is still an important stretch to the people who live around it. Also being a former Route 66, not only could there be opportunities for federal/foundational funding for things, but there could also be some home run opportunities to tie in some vintage Route 66 effects with both TOD and the transit line itself. It could be an incredible urban environment with a uniquely Okie spin.

I also think 23rd has the potential to be a good baseline for northside streetcars once the system keeps getting expanded that way. Classen/Western to me is a natural couplet, just a block apart from each other, that could begin and end at 23rd and loop all the way up to 50th, or however far up Western Avenue they decide to go (my vote is that it goes right in front of the Speakeasy so I can call it the Speakeasy to Prohibition Line). 23rd can also reach Paseo, Plaza, and very importantly, OCU.

But that's all sort of a 30-40 year masterplan to me (kind of like Core to Shore except that it's good for the city and less expensive). For now, this is the kind of starter system I would suggest at this point, given that it has to be passed by a city council keen to recant on its word of support...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_L3gtvb8usg4/TSaTdcu5IqI/AAAAAAAAA5Q/wYWUPILqMX0/s1600/route.jpg

I believe it's about 7 miles (all lines are single tracks), so perhaps we could just go as far up toward Plaza as possible in the first phase. There is no doubt that in a system such as this, Phase 2 would definitely be looking exclusively at the medical district, Paseo, and Capital Hill so if you want to placate city council, go ahead and draw those routes up and include them in the proposal.

One thing I like about my route above is its use of historic streetcar routes: Robinson, 23rd, Classen, etc. I think these are the absolute best corridors we could use. There's something about the lay of the streetcar routes that seems very organic, too, the way it points to the NW..I think it will make the system easily understood by its riders. I also like the loop that spurs off and quickly steps in and out of Bricktown/Deep Deuce, and it would be from 2nd/Walnut that you would extend the system under 235 at 4th Street and then up Lincoln to the heart of NE OKC. Mid-town is left out, being the only drawback in my opinion, but if the council wants it to stretch further than downtown, it will have to be that way. Unless a way is found to navigate the traffic circles along 10th, then perhaps you could take 10th between Walker and Classen instead of 4th/5th/6th.

I wouldn't even split up the track between Broadway and Robinson. The more I study other system around the world the more I am convinced that tracks need to stay togethere where traffic patterns permit it.

I’m not sure that this is necessarily true in Europe for new systems or those currently in planning and development. For instance, in Dublin, a system I’m fairly familiar with, the approved new Luas Broombridge (Line BXD) has a major couplet in central Dublin (http://www.rpa.ie/Maps/Luas%20Line%20BXD/Line%20BXD%20Map%20English%200109.pdf). The conclusion of their Alternatives Analysis was although both lines could be routed up and down the major O’Connell Street thoroughfare, placing the southbound line to the east on Marlborough Street performed better under the assessment criteria. According to the Irish RPA’s Environmental Impact Statement, “the wider accessibility of the system is of greater attraction to future users.” Also this routing “has the potential to act as a catalyst for the future regeneration of the northeast inner city area…” My experience is that the economic development potential, and how this can be spread out with couplets is now becoming much more recognized in streetcar planning and business case justifications in Europe.

I think that if we are planning a new system we need to look at the most current practices and not necessarily look at historical routes that developed under very different circumstances or cities with an already heavily developed transit system. We should look at cities where streetcar systems are about to be built that most closely parallel our situation, i.e., a new system in a US city that is not used to modern mass transit and where economic development potential was one of the main reasons why the system received such broad political support. We really need to look at and learn as much as we can from current planning that fully takes into account the huge economic development that has now taken place along modern streetcar corridors, most notably in Portland and Seattle.

So I must say I’m particularly struck with the strong, simple couplet design for Cincinnati (http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/noncms/projects/streetcar/docs/streetcar_map.pdf). I’m sure Hutch, who monitors rail development of all kinds around the US, could easily provide some other examples.

Ok, here is my concept. It has two lines.

Line 1:
Mesta Park to Santa Fe station.
Total length - 2.29 miles
Future extension to NW23 where it can go to Classen/UCO or continue to neighborhoods north of 23rd. On the south end it can go to Core to Shore/Capitol Hill

Line 2:
Deep Duce to St. Anthony Hospital
Total length - 1.14 miles
Future extension to Classen and neighborhoods west of Classen. On the Deep Duce side if can go to OU Medical/State Capitol

Total system length - 6.86 miles doubled tracked for travel in both direction. I was able to keep the total track to just under 7 miles becasue 1.58 miles of track through downtown is shared by both lines.
Points served within 1 block:
Deep Duce
Cox Center
Canal
ATT Ball Park
Bricktown
Harkin Theater
Centenial Plaza
Devon Tower (old one)
Devon tower (new one)
Cutter Tower
First National
City Place
First Oklahoma Tower
Sandridge
Bank of Oklahoma
Leadership Sq
OKC National Memorial
Automobile Alley
Midtown Plaza
St. Anthonys
Mesta Park
Heritage Hills
and 6 major downtown Hotels (Aloft, Hampton Inn, Courtyard, Renassiance, Shearton, and Colcord) .
The biggest problem with connecting downtown and residentail is a bunch of empty land that has to traveresed.



I expanded my route and made it roughly the same length as yours.

I hit all the same points as yours minus the aloft (two blocks instead one 1) But it also adds OU Health Center

The east/west Lines are all single track (I don't think we need double track for those lines yet but once the system is expanded they can be expanded to double line if planned right)

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5203/5332497782_27a37a1d04.jpg

This is an option for it expansion. I would include a north south line on May, Villa, or Penn but i don't know which one would be best.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5285/5331884455_127d4df61f_z.jpg

And this is What it could look like with commuter rail (this is assuming the commuter rail is using existing track lines or the right of ways for them at least)
The green line goes to Yukon and El Reno (connects to their street car) the Light blue goes to edmond up near UCO, The pink line goes to downtown Norman, The red goes to Will Rodgers and the black line goes to Tinker. I tried to make the streetcar end near or at the commuter lines (except the tinker line) so people can pick it up on the end or at the hub(Santa Fe station)

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5125/5332498924_23bb2d4ac0_z.jpg

I thought the Bombardier induction technology was in use in Marseilles, France, but I could be wrong.

I think in our conversations, the confusion lies in that Bomardier designed a really cool streetcar (Kerry posted pics) that "could" run on induction per our conversations with the manufacturer.

Bombardier is the only manufacturer who has come out with an induction system that could be installed in the US. Right now, per the video that we have of it, it is only in operation on a test track in Ausberg, Germany. Apparently, they are having a big "unveiling" of it sometime in February.

Here is my philosophy; I would rather serve a smaller area really well than serve an area twice the size but only half as good. This is the problem mass transit in OKC suffer from now.

A few things I have learned over the last week. Jogs in the track are not a big deal. It is more important that the streetcar goes where the people want to go than it for the people to go where the streetcar wants to take them. The streetcar exists for the rider. Nearly every system I have seen puts the track down the middle of the road so any utility relocation would come from the center of the roads to the shoulders. The new systems use induction technology so there are no overhead wires at all.

I don’t think it is possible for anyone to serve more points with fewer miles of tracks than what I posted earlier.

1. I think "jogs" are a big deal on the core system. There needs to be at least one extremely defined corridor. Small jogs in other areas, probably not such a big deal.

2. Streetcar does exist for the rider. Many older historic trams do go down the center of the road. But new modern streetcar design ideally interfaces directly with the sidewalk so that pedestrians are not having to cross a busy street to get to the platform. Undoubtedly, we may have some platforms in the middle. Particularly if it is a single track. But on a street as busy as Broadway, I think it would be safer and more attractive for people if we were minimizing their interaction with traffic.

3. Induction- Again, its a great idea and we are already seriously studying it. But we don't know what the average cost per mile is yet and it has only been demonstrated on a test track. As of right now, we are planning based on conventional overhead wire technology of which the MAPS budget was created. We will gladly change that position if induction or some other technology proves to be financially competitive and reliable.

I think a few of us are going to be running around this weekend looking at streets with our measuring wheels trying to generate some estimates and qualifying routes. We will try to "qualify" some of the great ideas that we have seen on here.

Let me give you all a challenge for debate:

What is the most preferable way to get to the Plaza district from 10th/13th streets? Think about what is along the way that makes sense to go by. Should we go by teh Classen school for example. I mean, really study it. Should we go up Classen, Shartel, or some other street? Also, remember that streetcar can "go through the grass." There are some streets that used to punch through to Classen that now are closed off by curbs and "busy" medians. Just food for thought.

Let me give you all a challenge for debate:

What is the most preferable way to get to the Plaza district from 10th/13th streets? Think about what is along the way that makes sense to go by. Should we go by teh Classen school for example. I mean, really study it. Should we go up Classen, Shartel, or some other street? Also, remember that streetcar can "go through the grass." There are some streets that used to punch through to Classen that now are closed off by curbs and "busy" medians. Just food for thought.

We live around 23rd and May and my wife worked downtown for several years. She always drove to Villa, down to 16th, to Classen Blvd to 13th all the way to Robinson then south to DT. I think doing 16th (maybe from Penn?) down to Classen Blvd south, to 13th east to Classen Drive southeast to Midtown (10th and Walker) There could be stops at 16th and Ellison (a block south of Classen SAS) in front of Lyric Theatre, 13th and Classen Drive and finally 10th and Walker. I believe this route would be about 1.75 miles.

Here is my plan with stop included. This is all done with just 7 miles of track. Sorry, but I could not get it all to fit in one picture and still the stops.

North half
http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/North.jpg

South half
http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/South.jpg

What parts are "double tracked?" Are any of them single track?

What parts are "double tracked?" Are any of them single track?

It is all double track except for the loop that goes around the Civic Center. The loop is single track following the flow of traffic. One correction, since I added the black line total length is now just under 8 miles.

Kerry, I don't understand that map. I realize it's absolutely hopeless to try and post a map because right now this thread is being inundated by everyone posting their user-generated maps which in some cases look really rough, but to address yours, I just don't see where it goes. Why is the jail a destination? I would want the streetcar to avoid it, honestly. And I don't understand the north end of Phase 1 just dropping off in the middle of Heritage Hills. Especially along Walker, whereas I could almost understand making Robinson in HH a destination (which Rob actually is decent density w/ apartment buildings all the way up to 17th).

Why is the jail a destination? I would want the streetcar to avoid it, honestly.

The jail is a major employment and activity center. Not everyone in the jail is a criminal and no inmates would be riding the streetcar. Also, at that corner is the Okahoma City Municipal Courts which is another major employer and activity center. I think the police department and City 911 serive center is there also, not to mention several other City offices. Because the street around that area is one-way the streetcar has to make a loop anyhow and not having a stop their would be, well, rude.


And I don't understand the north end of Phase 1 just dropping off in the middle of Heritage Hills. Especially along Walker, whereas I could almost understand making Robinson in HH a destination (which Rob actually is decent density w/ apartment buildings all the way up to 17th).

The reason I choose to go up Walker is that you have to maximize the usage of track. Since I had the streecar going to the Plaza District and St Anthony it made more sense to use the eixsiting track to get to HH and Mesta Park. I would love to get the streetcar all the way to The Paseo (which is off of Walker) but there simply isn't enough track to get there right now. The Walker line also serves The Cline and Mercy Hospital site. One of the challenges in OKC is getting the street car from the urban core to the nearest residential areas without wasting a lot of track. As I looked at system around the world most of then have (or had at one time) spurs that went into residential areas and stopped. You can really see this in places like Oslo (which I have mentioned many times) becasue they actually used a turn around loop. Since this is just phase one the track will eventually continue on so I just stopped the track. However, no matter where the track goes it has to stop somewhere. Finally, Mesta Park is not a destination, it is an origination point. The people have to come from somewhere. This system has to be built to serve the people living, working, playing there. It can't rely on weekend visitors from Edmond.

Keep in mind, this is just phase one. If you want to see phase two, three, and four - I have those as well. I even have a Classen line that goes from Belle Isle to St. Anthony to downtown.

Also, at that corner is the Okahoma City Municipal Courts which is another major employer and activity center. I think the police department and City 911 serive center is there also, not to mention several other City offices.

This is the absolute worst collection of businesses in any direction out from downtown one could possibly find, including going up or down. Core2Shore, err I mean the old Riverside district, has a lot more business activity already than jailville. Furthermore, Sheriff Whetsel IS going to see to it that we have a new jail somewhere else. So then a streetcar line going through a terrible part of downtown intended just to serve the bail bondsmen who must be hungry and looking for Bricktown would absolutely dry up and be a continuous nag on the maintenance, upkeep, and perception of the downtown streetcar system.




The reason I choose to go up Walker is that you have to maximize the usage of track. Since I had the streecar going to the Plaza District and St Anthony it made more sense to use the eixsiting track to get to HH and Mesta Park. I would love to get the streetcar all the way to The Paseo (which is off of Walker) but there simply isn't enough track to get there right now. The Walker line also serves The Cline and Mercy Hospital site. One of the challenges in OKC is getting the street car from the urban core to the nearest residential areas without wasting a lot of track. As I looked at system around the world most of then have (or had at one time) spurs that went into residential areas and stopped. You can really see this in places like Oslo (which I have mentioned many times) becasue they actually used a turn around loop. Since this is just phase one the track will eventually continue on so I just stopped the track. However, no matter where the track goes it has to stop somewhere. Finally, Mesta Park is not a destination, it is an origination point. The people have to come from somewhere. This system has to be built to serve the people living, working, playing there. It can't rely on weekend visitors from Edmond.

Keep in mind, this is just phase one. If you want to see phase two, three, and four - I have those as well. I even have a Classen line that goes from Belle Isle to St. Anthony to downtown.

I think it's debatable about the need to make the downtown streetcar serve anywhere but the handful of square miles that we're currently working with for a downtown. Including Riverside, that's about 3 square miles. I don't think you're being realistic when the assertion of having to connect residential low-density areas to a huge mixed-use scattered-density (for lack of a better term) area implies that downtown is a small and insignificant area. As for Walker, HH and MP especially along Walker do not have the density to justify usage and it is not even a potential destination on the merit of development potential because it is an area historically protected by city ordinances, and for good reason. Walker has about half the apartment buildings as Robinson, and they're closer to 23rd and somewhat dingier. Robinson's are closer to 13th. Also Walker is not conducive to a streetcar and HH residents would probably not appreciate the line there. Robinson is much more conducive to streetcar because of the good-sized median with mature trees, which could quite possibly be an experience akin to the St. Charles Streetcar in NOLA. Robinson also offers development potential, amazingly, because things can still be done in HH East, there are some parking lots on the SE fringe of HH, and towards Broadway is not historically protected anyway.

This is what I keep stressing. You can't expect a complete system to come out of a hodge podge of jumbled parts resembling their own incomplete systems. The starter line is so pivotal that without its success nothing more happens, nothing ever gets completed. The starter route must lead to other good expansions while being whole of just its own self. An imaginary line labeled "Coming Soon" that goes on where the HH line ends does not get people on the streetcar to go up to the Paseo for the sake of the thought being what matters most. That doesn't jive with reality. If Pete White suggested Jeff Bezdek was smoking something when he is making great sense I wonder what Pete White's response to this would be.

It isn't just the jail on that line Spartan. GO back and look at the stops I have on the map (that is why Iposted it). That segment stops at the Park Harvey, library, County Court House, City Hall, Oklahoma City Museum of Art, Civic Center, City offices, and Oklahoma City Municipal Court. It is also one block from Legacy at Art Quarter.

I suggest you take a shot at Google Earth and watch how fast you run out of track. You only have 6 miles (maybe 8 or 9 if the Feds come through).

It isn't just the jail on that line Spartan. GO back and look at the stops I have on the map (that is why Iposted it). That segment stops at the Park Harvey, library, County Court House, City Hall, Oklahoma City Museum of Art, Civic Center, City offices, and Oklahoma City Municipal Court. It is also one block from Legacy at Art Quarter.

I suggest you take a shot at Google Earth and watch how fast you run out of track. You only have 6 miles (maybe 8 or 9 if the Feds come through).

Kerry, I've drawn and posted at least 10 routes myself. Jeff told me he's made over 40 or something like that, and that's extremely well-researched routes, on top of that, taking rulers to streets before drawing a single line. There is no shortage of possible route configurations and that is not even important because it will all fall into place based on what we want to do precisely and simply what works to do that. Drawing lines on a map is irrelevant right now except for purposes of demonstrating ideas. Ideas right now, routes later. We have to first have a debate over going beyond downtown. Certainly I say go for it as long as you can do it and still have a complete system and nothing else, and I am not sure that is possible. Demonstrating with a route exactly how it may not be possible doesn't help that.

And now you've retreated to listing attractions in the Arts District which I wholeheartedly support extending service to. But that's like responding to complaints about a line going toward the new Douglass HS by mentioning the attractions in Bricktown on the way.

edit: and in no way was that making a comparison between the jail and the new Douglass HS, so maybe that's an unfortunate attempt at drawing a relevant comparison, so just look at it as point withstanding.

I really would hate to see this money go towards building a neighborhood feeder/connector. It really would disappoint me. I really do think and feel we need a DOWNTOWN connector first. When that is established, bring on the nearby neighborhoods, by all means. I also think it is a stretch to even think about making the streetcar expand past a few miles out of downtown. The inconvenience associated with traveling long distance on something that stops frequently, and doesn't move extremely quickly (unless someone wishes to correct me?). Light rail or some other method would be preferred for longer distances.

I still stand by, spend the money to build the best damn system we can to move people around downtown and the nearby districts. Once that is established, we can spend money on riskier (not as high population density or attraction density) routes (jogs) to cross-bleed demand (bring people in downtown to the Paseo for example, and bring people from the Paseo to downtown, etc.). Right now, I don't see the use in spending $100 million dollars, to connect a few miles of low-medium density neighborhoods to downtown. Who are we serving? The few people who live within a few blocks of the streetcar in those neighborhoods? Who are we serving if we use the streetcar as a downtown circulatory system? The answer...all of OKC. Not literally, but most everyone in OKC will go downtown at least once a year, for whatever reason. The average person, more than that -- a couple times a month. And the people who work and live in downtown, a still large number, everyday. Everyone will have the potential to use the system, instead of the limited and privileged few who will live within a few blocks of the streetcar in midtown or the neighborhoods around there we are talking about connecting to downtown right now. I would not get near as much use out of the streetcar if it didn't connect downtown. I'm the average citizen, I am not in the downtown area everyday...but when I am, I would love to be able to be, for example at City Hall...and decide on a whim to go to Bricktown for lunch...go plug my meter for another hour, hop on the streetcar and be in Bricktown in 5-10 minutes...eat lunch...walk around for a little bit...get back on the streetcar and get back to my car without being dog tired from walking or from having to drive my car to bricktown, find a spot (possibly pay $5), and then continue.

Makes no sense to me that everyone on this board (at least the prominent members) claims to be so downtown centric, and super urbanist. But when the opportunity arrives to have a truly functioning and self sustaining downtown transit system, we decide it needs to serve everybody outside of downtown first, with a quick jog through downtown so we can claim it will be a downtown streetcar. Pathetic.

I really do feel if we go with the neighborhood connector system everyone is proposing, this will fail. We know there are people downtown and who visit downtown....lots of employees. Devon Tower, Chase Tower, Mid America Tower, Leadership Square, Sandridge Tower, the city govt., courts, two arenas and a convention center, a regional entertainment district, a few large hotels, a train station, parks, apartments, etc. Why would we NOT want to connect downtown with itself right away. It's pretty much a shot in the barrel that ridership would be good in the downtown core and immediately surrounding areas.

I am not against connecting these neighborhoods into the system in the future, but not right now -- not with a starter system, which is already under scrutiny. We should be wanting to give it the best chance of success we can, so we can connect these neighborhoods in the future. If the streetcar is a success, it will be a no-brainer to voters to approve logical extensions and connections.

Rant over.

I started this process with exactly your sentiment. I do believe that the transit mall concept establishes a strong transit corridor that adequately serves most of downtown. The challenge has become political however. Council signs off on our recommendations. While there has been alot of rhetoric about buses, it has been made exceptionately clear that they want us to "stretch" this thing. Several of them do not view it the way you or I do. I believe the downtown belongs to everyone and that the majority of our citizens will have regular, legitimate opportunities to use the system. However, there are those who have decided that this is for a small "elitist" group of people who live downtown. So with that in mind, we have to build a strong core system that connects to other modes of travel and a terminus destination on a phase one plan.

I wish all of council saw it your way, but they all don't. There is more to come. I wouldn't dispair until the numbers are "run through the wringer." We are going to end up with lots of good options.

I started this process with exactly your sentiment. I do believe that the transit mall concept establishes a strong transit corridor that adequately serves most of downtown. The challenge has become political however. Council signs off on our recommendations. While there has been alot of rhetoric about buses, it has been made exceptionately clear that they want us to "stretch" this thing. Several of them do not view it the way you or I do. I believe the downtown belongs to everyone and that the majority of our citizens will have regular, legitimate opportunities to use the system. However, there are those who have decided that this is for a small "elitist" group of people who live downtown.

Oh good, instead we'll stretch it through Heritage Hills which will magically make it less elitist. That thinking only works in one place in this universe...OKC City Hall.

But the council "getting it" and letting streetcar happen how it should is almost to much to ask.

P.S. (Directed at others) And on the topic of the Paseo, what is it up there that exactly warrants a streetcar line over anywhere closer, besides the arts festival? Plaza, 23rd, medical district, and capitol are all closer. Capitol Hill is a wash, but it's faster because no stops south of I-40 for the meantime. The Paseo is really kind of a small core, too, about the same size as Stockyards City, actually.

To me, connecting and stretching to these neighborhoods is elitist...the average person in OKC has no reason to take a streetcar from downtown to these neighborhoods. What is the benefit? Who has the benefit?

To me, connecting and stretching to these neighborhoods is elitist...the average person in OKC has no reason to take a streetcar from downtown to these neighborhoods. What is the benefit? Who has the benefit?

Bingo.

There is not anywhere else that serves ALL of OKC besides downtown. It is also where our civic amenities ALL are located. We don't have a ballpark in the Paseo, nor is there a convention center in the Plaza, and there certainly is not a basketball arena located in Mesta Park last time I checked. And the list could be at least 20 items long, when you add up the true, important amenities, that don't exist anywhere else. This also backs up the idea that we should be used to downtown serving all of us by now. Someone who lives on the edge of town benefits more from this streetcar not getting hijacked by the inner north and focusing instead more on downtown, which is what everyone sees of the inner city regardless of what else they see.

The best way to counter the elitist perception/attitude is to put in places that are, shall we say less affluent and could actually use a relatively inexpensive dependable, alternative form of transportation?

The best way to counter the elitist perception/attitude is to put in places that are, shall we say less affluent and could actually use a relatively inexpensive dependable, alternative form of transportation?

Well, we would go to capitol hill, but there's a black hole between there and downtown which would make for a questionable route. It's just too far to get to in the first phase. 23rd Street is certainly not elite, however.

To me, connecting and stretching to these neighborhoods is elitist...the average person in OKC has no reason to take a streetcar from downtown to these neighborhoods. What is the benefit? Who has the benefit?

Think you have it backwards, the idea to connecting to residential neighborhoods isn't to get people downtown to visit the neighborhoods but to get the people in the neighborhoods a way to get downtown (and back).

if you are talking about a shopping district or the like, that is a different story.

Build an extensive streetcar that covers downtown, then shift the resources from the buses running through downtown to the other areas. If the streetcar does its job as a downtown connector, having overlapping bus service that competes with the streetcar won't be needed, and those buses can be applied elsewhere.

Think you have it backwards, the idea to connecting to residential neighborhoods isn't to get people downtown to visit the neighborhoods but to get the people in the neighborhoods a way to get downtown (and back).

if you are talking about a shopping district or the like, that is a different story.

So you admit the only people with the real benefit are those few people in those neighborhoods? I don't have it backwards, I got the response I was looking for.

The jail is a major employment and activity center. Not everyone in the jail is a criminal and no inmates would be riding the streetcar. Also, at that corner is the Okahoma City Municipal Courts which is another major employer and activity center. I think the police department and City 911 serive center is there also, not to mention several other City offices. Because the street around that area is one-way the streetcar has to make a loop anyhow and not having a stop their would be, well, rude.

Are you on crack?

So you admit the only people with the real benefit are those few people in those neighborhoods? I don't have it backwards, I got the response I was looking for.

Of course they are benefiting. If the line goes to Nichols Hills, those people benefit. If it goes to Capitol Hill, those people benefit. If it only serves downtown, then mainly those who are downtown benefit. Those tourists (very important element since they represent NEW money to the economy, rather than the redistribution from one area of town or business to another) benefit. Those that live/work downtown benefit. And those that sometimes go to a sporting event, concert or special occasion benefit. If your interests aren't downtown centric, little to no benefit. if they are, you are going to benefit the most.

I am speaking to the MAPS 3 DT streetcars only, if and when federal money comes thru, a MAPS 4, 5 & 6 are used to expand the system, commuter rail and /or high speed rail materialize in 10, 20 or 50 years, that is another matter entirely.

The system I posted goes within 2 blocks of every point of interest in downtown OKC. Name one I missed. It also hists 6 of the 8 hotels in the downtown OKC area and allows for ample TOD. Sure you can cut the line in HH and Mesta Park and go to OU Medical but who is going to ride it after 6PM? Are the people stating in the downtown hotels going to be venturing to OU medical at 9PM? I don't think so. If you try to go south out of downtown you run out of track before you get anywhere.

I think if we're going to play with routes, they will have to fall well within the six mile estimate (which was a midrange estimate for costs, by the way). We can't plan a route based on federal funding that may never materialize, as that truly might leave you with a route to nowhere. So, when I'm theorizing, I try to do it within 5 mile constraints. That is more limiting, and it also makes really thinking about the goal of the streetcar important, but is probably more realistic.

I've migrated towards the other approach. You give them the absolute best core system you can within the budget, and a full blown system plan.

Give them options that they can't go wrong with.

Regarding neighborhoods- neighborhood centers make excellent terminuses. There
is nothing wrong with streetcar going through residential part of the way.

I think if we're going to play with routes, they will have to fall well within the six mile estimate (which was a midrange estimate for costs, by the way). We can't plan a route based on federal funding that may never materialize, as that truly might leave you with a route to nowhere. So, when I'm theorizing, I try to do it within 5 mile constraints. That is more limiting, and it also makes really thinking about the goal of the streetcar important, but is probably more realistic.

Good point Betts. My red line is 5.5 miles using all double track.

Keep in mind, this is just phase one. If you want to see phase two, three, and four - I have those as well. I even have a Classen line that goes from Belle Isle to St. Anthony to downtown.

I would very much like to see your later phases. Alternatives Analysis has really only come up with Midtown to Health Sciences which to my mind would make a solid Phase 1. AA needs to be thinking about Phase 2 such as going on up to the Capitol and perhaps east along 23rd to MLK. That would have a good federal funding potential and an application could be turned around fairly quickly using the MAPS Phase 1 as local match. And of course there are numerous other options to other neighborhoods.

Many of us have been concerned about this lack of vision. This week should have made it very clear that such a vision or system masterplan is what we need asap. We need to show how the core Phase 1 relates to and can be easily expanded to Phases 2a, 2b, etc. for the different points of the compass. And then a Phase 3.

As a possible mileage budget, it would be good to think about 6 miles in Phase 1, 6 miles for Phase 2 and perhaps 12 miles for Phase 3 - when every innercity neighborhood and their dog will be going bonkers demanding an extension!

Seriously, we need as much help as possible with developing a coherent, well-structured well-communicated vision that starts from Broadway/Robinson and goes out 10-20 years.

The system I posted goes within 2 blocks of every point of interest in downtown OKC. Name one I missed. It also hists 6 of the 8 hotels in the downtown OKC area and allows for ample TOD. Sure you can cut the line in HH and Mesta Park and go to OU Medical but who is going to ride it after 6PM? Are the people stating in the downtown hotels going to be venturing to OU medical at 9PM? I don't think so. If you try to go south out of downtown you run out of track before you get anywhere.

Not every point of interest must be served. This is an example of trying to please everyone and helping no one at the same time. Perhaps a system that serves every "point of interest" downtown is the worst possible thing we could have.

And I see nothing wrong with a streetcar terminus in the middle of a residential area, it's just that you have to be selective about which. Walker is not it, Walker is pretty low-density for the most part. Robinson and Shartel both would be much more conducive to streetcar, especially Robinson. It's just that having the terminus around 18th and Walker makes about as much sense as making sure the jail area is well-served.

Oh and one important downtown "point of interest" you forgot to serve is the Ken Boyer Bail Bonds at 5th and Shartel. So back to the drawing board for you Kerry. Lol

I've migrated towards the other approach. You give them the absolute best core system you can within the budget, and a full blown system plan.

Give them options that they can't go wrong with.

Regarding neighborhoods- neighborhood centers make excellent terminuses. There
is nothing wrong with streetcar going through residential part of the way.

So the plan is to still propose a downtown circulator first but show later expansion options to other parts of town in the same proposal?

There has to be a "core" system irregardless of political rhetoric. We have to give council good choices as to how to "stretch" it to other meaningful urban centers in the context of a master plan. Today alone, some of us identified four viable destinations within the estimated budget that are truly outside of downtown. We evaluated street lenghts, sizes, expansion capabilities.

Is there any indication about how much time it’s going to take to get from a central hub out to the far end of the system?


In the coming years as a trolley system gets interconnected to other types of transit transportation like light rail, commuter rail and buses, time / speed to high destination stops are critical factors for any successful transit system.

I agree with ou48a, but I don't think we're anywhere close to that mattering yet. In NYC commute time is really important--areas of Brooklyn that are further from Midtown Manhattan like Brighton Beach are where you can find good deals on good apartments. That's also why some areas just across the river from Midtown like Astoria are suddenly becoming extremely popular right now, because it's only a 15 min commute on the subway versus a 45 minute commute from Brighton Beach.


There has to be a "core" system irregardless of political rhetoric. We have to give council good choices as to how to "stretch" it to other meaningful urban centers in the context of a master plan. Today alone, some of us identified four viable destinations within the estimated budget that are truly outside of downtown. We evaluated street lenghts, sizes, expansion capabilities.

So the initial starter system will include one of either Plaza/Paseo/Uptown/etc?

I would very much like to see your later phases.

I can't post a picture of the total route system because at that scale it is unreadable so here is a text description.

Yellow Line:
My Yellow line extends north out of Heritage Hills, crossed 23rd and ends at NE36 and N. Dewy Ave. Going south out of downtown the yellow line goes along EKG to the new blvd, turns west, and then south at Robinson. It travels south and runs thru Capitol Hill along SW25th. At Walker it turns south again and continues to SW29th where it turns west to S. Western. I currently have it terminating at SW Medical Center.

Red and Black Lines:
Both the red and black lines go north out of Deep Deuce and turn right on Harrison on their way to Lincoln. On Lincoln they turn north and got the state capitol. The black line terminates at the capitol. This allows the black to connect all government offices (County, State, Local). The red line continues north on Lincoln to NE50th where it turns east and goes to Remington Park.

To the west my red line continues past St. Anthony, to North Penn. It goes 3 blocks north on Penn to NW12. It follows the original streetcar tracks on NW12 and north up Drexel. It terminates at N23rd.

Blue Line:
My blue line goes south from Santa Fe to the new blvd, turns west and follows the new blvd until it meets Exchange. It takes exchange to StockYard City and turns south on Agnew. It then goes south to SW29th and goes east 3 blocks to South Penn. It goes south on Penn and terminates at I-240.

Green Line:
My green line follows the same route from Santa Fe to St Anthony as the red line and then turns north on Classen. It goes all the way north on Classen and terminates at I-44 just south of Wal-Mart. I then created a bus connector that serves local shopping and major employers (Chesapeake, Mid First, Classen Curve, Belle Isle Station, Penn Square, 50 Penn Place).

Purple Line:
The purple line is the 23rd street connector. It goes from Drexel/NW23rd to the State Capitol and connects with the green line at Classen, the yellow line at North Walker, and the black and red lines at the state capitol. Transfer to this train is free to anyone getting on or off the Green, Yellow, Black, and Red lines

Pink Line:
The pink line is the SW29th St connector. It goes from May Ave/29th St to Shields and connects with the Blue line at Agnew/Penn (uses the same track for 3 blocks) and the yellow line at S Western and S Walker (uses the same track for 4 blocks)

My total system has 7 lines. 5 go to Santa Fe Station and two are cross-town connectors (one on the north side and one on the south side). I am also thinking of putting in an Orange line that follows along Shields and connects to the Boathouse district but I am still looking at possible routes. I was also thinking about extending the black line all the way to the Fairgrounds via General Pershing Way.

So the initial starter system will include one of either Plaza/Paseo/Uptown/etc?

Those would be strong candidates along with some other likely possibilities such as the Capitol. We would need good realistic ways of getting there – how would you do that and then how would you rank the options? And how would the “Phase 1b” then be extended on in Phase 2 or Phase 3?

I think we can do a solid Midtown – Downtown – Bricktown/Hub/Convention Center/Park core couplet with 4 miles. (FWIW, I feel very strongly that the Hub, Park and Convention Center must definitely be reached by this core couplet.) That would leave 2 miles to work with.

It then becomes very likely that we would need to use single track in some areas to get out of Downtown/Midtown. That would be similar to the short stretches in Portland along SW Montgomery and SW 4th plus the long stretch from SW Moody and SW River Parkway to SW Moody and SW Gibbs. (Admittedly, part of the latter segment is along an old railroad bed). Another situation to consider would be from S 21st and Pacific to the Tacoma Dome station in Tacoma.

There are clearly streets that would lend themselves to this approach, such as Robinson from 13th to 23rd. Another factor to think about is as the system expands could such streets be doubled tracked or a couplet added to handle the increased frequency as the system expands in Phase 2?

Those would be strong candidates along with some other likely possibilities such as the Capitol. We would need good realistic ways of getting there – how would you do that and then how would you rank the options? And how would the “Phase 1b” then be extended on in Phase 2 or Phase 3?

I think we can do a solid Midtown – Downtown – Bricktown/Hub/Convention Center/Park core couplet with 4 miles. (FWIW, I feel very strongly that the Hub, Park and Convention Center must definitely be reached by this core couplet.) That would leave 2 miles to work with.

It then becomes very likely that we would need to use single track in some areas to get out of Downtown/Midtown. That would be similar to the short stretches in Portland along SW Montgomery and SW 4th plus the long stretch from SW Moody and SW River Parkway to SW Moody and SW Gibbs. (Admittedly, part of the latter segment is along an old railroad bed). Another situation to consider would be from S 21st and Pacific to the Tacoma Dome station in Tacoma.

There are clearly streets that would lend themselves to this approach, such as Robinson from 13th to 23rd. Another factor to think about is as the system expands could such streets be doubled tracked or a couplet added to handle the increased frequency as the system expands in Phase 2?

Right, I understand all that. Not saying I'm ahead of anyone's thinking, it's just that I have paid attention to absolutely everything being said by the people serving on AA, the subcommittee, and in other streetcar capacities and I think I have a good feel for what's going on and what considerations must be made for certain things. Where I'm coming from is really just wanting to know definitively if this is going to be just downtown or stretch out to other areas. We all know it will 15 years from now, that's not up for debate, and we all want that to be the case. I am just getting a very mixed, convoluted message about what the approach of the starter system is going to be.

Is Pete White's position going to be a deal-changer for real?

Oklahoma City leaders considering alternatives to downtown streetcar
At least one city council member would like to see some of the money included in MAPS 3 go to city buses.
BY BRYAN DEAN, bdean@opubco.com
The Oklahoman
Published: January 10, 2011

More than a year after voters approved MAPS 3, city leaders are split on what to do with one of the biggest pieces of the proposal — $130 million for a downtown streetcar and transit hub.

In recent weeks, Ward 4 Councilman Pete White has come out against the plan for a 5- or 6-mile streetcar system that was pitched to voters during the MAPS 3 campaign.

Such a streetcar would run on rails and would cost at least $20 million a mile to build. White said he wants to keep the promise to voters of building a downtown circulator, but he would like the city to look at cheaper options such as an enhanced version of the downtown trolley system already in place, which uses modified city buses.

The bulk of the money for transit included in MAPS 3 then could be used to improve city bus service or build a light rail line that would serve many more people, White said.

“I drive by a bus stop every day that is not sheltered, and there are eight people standing there almost every day,” White said. “We don't have a conscience about that.”

Supporters see the streetcar as a potential economic development tool. They say a bus line can be changed. But a streetcar on rails is permanent and sends a sign to potential business owners that they can bank on the traffic that comes with it.

Serving downtown

The streetcar mostly would serve those who live and work downtown. It could also convince more downtown workers to move into expanding residential developments, supporters say.

Jeff Bezdek, a downtown resident who has fought for a streetcar system since before MAPS 3 was proposed, said people were promised more than a rubber-tire trolley system like the one already in place downtown. He also said MAPS isn't the way to pay for buses, which have a low capital cost but high maintenance and operating costs.

“MAPS is not designed to handle ongoing operational costs,” Bezdek said. “We build things that are permanent, that are meaningful.”

Bezdek said a modern streetcar running on rails would be the kind of top-of-the-line project that people have come to expect from MAPS.

Mayor Mick Cornett said there is no short-term solution to the problems with the city's bus system. Most people who ride a bus have to connect through downtown, and buses don't run frequently enough to make them practical.

Rider's complaints

Tramale Jones, of Oklahoma City, rides the bus every day. He said the city needs to run buses 24 hours a day like most major cities and should run routes frequently enough that people would see them as an alternative to driving themselves.

“On the weekend they run most routes every hour,” Jones said. “It takes you three hours to get there and back.”

Keyawanna Hawkins rides the bus every other day. She said the long wait is her biggest complaint.

“It would be 10 times faster if I had a car,” Jones said.

Cornett said those complaints are valid, but there is no easy way to address them.

“I looked very long and hard at finding a way to enhance our bus system in MAPS 3,” Cornett said. “But without a permanent funding source, we just couldn't make the funding work. I would love to find a way to solve the issue. I just don't think we are close to that day”

Many believe the streetcar would serve mostly young professionals capable of walking around downtown.

Recalling a recent budget fight to preserve two enhanced bus routes that were on the chopping block last summer, White said he'd like to see those who rely most on public transit — the poor, handicapped and elderly — get at least a piece of the MAPS pie.

“We had to fight for $40,000 to get enough money for buses for people who need those buses to get back and forth to work, and it was like pulling teeth to get it done,” White said. “Nobody speaks for those people. And yet we are willing to drop $120 million on a system that will make it easy for people to get from point A to point B a block away.”

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-leaders-considering-alternatives-to-downtown-streetcar/article/3530973#ixzz1AdxJQsp4

Pete White is about as clueless as they come. If he thinks $130 million is a lot for 6 miles of streetcar track he is going to soil himself over the price of lightrail which is over $70 million per mile. 6 miles of that will cost $420 million and won't serve near as many people.

Hopefully all of the Pete White discussion will lead to an overhaul of our city transportation as a whole, buses, trolleys, bus stops, river boats, etc.

Where was Mr. White with the Okla River boats funding?

Right, I understand all that. Not saying I'm ahead of anyone's thinking, it's just that I have paid attention to absolutely everything being said by the people serving on AA, the subcommittee, and in other streetcar capacities and I think I have a good feel for what's going on and what considerations must be made for certain things. Where I'm coming from is really just wanting to know definitively if this is going to be just downtown or stretch out to other areas. We all know it will 15 years from now, that's not up for debate, and we all want that to be the case. I am just getting a very mixed, convoluted message about what the approach of the starter system is going to be.

Is Pete White's position going to be a deal-changer for real?

I don't know what you mean by a mixed, convoluted message.

The message is clear. You have to have a solid core system, i/e the "transit mall." Enough key people do not want to see a circular downtown perimeter line as they equate that to a "tourist ride." They want to see the millage "stretched" out connecting some "meaningful" place outside of downtown.

I am not talking about the committee... I am talking about the sentiment of several key people on council.

Give them a good core system. Give them good, meaningful urban destinations outside of downtown, and provide a solid master plan with recommended phases. Finally, identify a solid "federal funding" objective that can be pursued.

Hopefully all of the Pete White discussion will lead to an overhaul of our city transportation as a whole, buses, trolleys, bus stops, river boats, etc.

Where was Mr. White with the Okla River boats funding?

He supported and voted for it, "of cousre, that was before he was against it".

In light of Pete White's comment, I don't feel so good anymore. This must be how a NASCAR driver feels when he goes from 1st place to 2nd places and finds out one of his pit crew guys is putting water in the gasoline.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50554816-76/sugar-streetcar-lake-million.html.csp

http://cleantechnica.com/2011/01/07/streetcar-is-focus-of-salt-lake-city-mayors-state-of-the-city-speech/

"Becker’s next goal is to bring streetcars to downtown Salt Lake City, which it has already started getting federal funding for, recently receiving half a million dollars for this project."

Not that half a million dollars is a lot of purchasing power, but it's interesting that federal money is available for a downtown streetcar.