Moving to all two-way streets with Project 180 and using couplets gives a lot more flexibility with choosing streets. Obviously, the lines do need to be on the right side of the street. So southbound on Robinson, i.e., west side of Robinson with northbound on Broadway means east side of Broadway. But as Urban Pioneer has pointed out, that configuration gets messy, especially at Sheridan and Broadway and 3rd and Broadway. Conversely, north on Robinson (east side) and south on Broadway (west side) is a lot simpler and also minimizes the distance between the lines to just the distance within the block. Our blocks are notably wide and avoiding having to cross Broadway (a notably wide and busy street) to get to the other stop for the other direction will help.

Another very useful benefit of one line per street is that allows the utilities to be more easily located on one side of the street with the streetcar on the other. Given that utilility relocation is the most expensive, complicated and risky (in terms of unknowns and delay) of a streetcar project then this is a non-trivial consideration.

One very important thing to keep in mind here is not so much the difference between two tracks/direction on one street or a couplet but the complications that arise when using just single track. That may seem like a cost saving but in reality causes a lot of operational problems (slows circulation) but also means that you either have to have a completely dedicated right of way for the track (in say, the middle of the street) or somehow prevent trafffic from entering the dedicated single track lane, for which have the time the streetcars will be going in the wrong direction to the traffic flow. That will be messy for a city not accustomed to streetcars.

I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you Kerry, for precisely the reasons I've outlined. One way streets are an unrelated issue, IMO, and spreading out development and ease of access to the streetcar are more important, to my way of thinking.

I could maybe see a couplet on Robinson/Broadway too.... but ONLY from Sheridan to 4th Street. Broadway simply wouldn't make sense with one track. Not to mention our blocks are so much larger than cities the do the couplet trend.

I could maybe see a couplet on Robinson/Broadway too.... but ONLY from Sheridan to 4th Street. Broadway simply wouldn't make sense with one track. Not to mention our blocks are so much larger than cities the do the couplet trend.

Why do you think that Broadway (and specifically the Automobile Alley part) has to have have double tracks? A single block on the right sides of the street is not very far for people to walk. Particularly if the sidewalks and pedestrian infrastructure linking the small distance between the two stops is upgraded.

This is a tad over at 6.25 miles...

I think a couplet like this would be interesting... Robinson northbound/Broadway southbound to encourage walking in the "core" and at the same time minimize crossing the street to a line (I think UP mentioned that)... but I feel strongly that Broadway and Robinson would have to "match" in scale... narrow both to two auto lanes with back in angled parking... perhaps Robinson could be "claimed" by A-Alley and have a similar streetscape... it could make use of the interesting loop by the flower market... then double track to Classen and create a "spine" like UP was talking about... at the northern terminus the park in the Asian district could make and nice turnaround station with the iconic Milk bottle in sight... the shaded area is again about a 3-block walk.

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll14/Platemaker_photos/OKC%20Development/ABC.jpg

Platemaker, what you have drawn on Broadway and Robinson is exactly the couplet design that I was writing about. Tier2City also described what you have drawn correctly. It is an equal distance all the way through the core and creates this "Transit Mall".

Why do you think that Broadway (and specifically the Automobile Alley part) has to have have double tracks? A single block on the right sides of the street is not very far for people to walk. Particularly if the sidewalks and pedestrian infrastructure linking the small distance between the two stops is upgraded.

I guess I feel that way if they maintain their current appearance as "big" streets... decrease them to a more human scale (upgrade pedestrian infrastructure like you say) and I think we agree.... speaking about north of 4th specifically.

Currently the scale of both streets is better for a couplet from 4th to Sheridan.

From this "Transit Mall" you can extend lines on 4th to Health Sciences, 10th and/or 13th to West Midtown and on to the Asian District / Classen Corridor, due North on Robinson towards Paseo, and/or due south on Robinson to Capitol Hill.

I guess I feel that way if they maintain their current appearance as "big" streets... decrease them to a more human scale (upgrade pedestrian infrastructure like you say) and I think we agree.... speaking about north of 4th specifically.

Currently the scale of both streets is better for a couplet from 4th to Sheridan.

Ok. That brings up a second question. Where are the dual street stops on this couplet? 10th, 8th, 6th, 4th, 2nd, Sheridan? I need to go look at 8th street. I don't remember what it is like (pedestrian/sidewalk wise).

Add to that an extension on NW 6th and onto Linwood (a potentially GREAT street)... and Sheridan to Hudson to Main then west on Main (that opens expansion to both the Fairgrounds and down Exchange to the Stockyards)

Ok. That brings up a second question. Where are the dual street stops on this couplet? 10th, 8th, 6th, 4th, 2nd, Sheridan? I need to go look at 8th street. I don't remember what it is like (pedestrian/sidewalk wise).

I agree on those except change 2nd to Park.

Add to that an extension on NW 6th and onto Linwood (a potentially GREAT street)... and Sheridan to Hudson to Main then west on Main (that opens expansion to both the Fairgrounds and down Exchange to the Stockyards)

And via either route to the airport. Mike Carrier will tell you that the Convention Center is able to punch way above its weight (size, age) because of its proximity to Bricktown. A link to the airport by "enhanced" streetcar (say Exchange to Stockyards, then the Newcastle rail line, or Fairgrounds and then down hotel row on Meridan) will fully cement our Tier2City status. Hey, that's my handle!

What we need is a REAL master plan... something like...

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll14/Platemaker_photos/OKC%20Development/master.jpg

What we need is a REAL master plan... something like...

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll14/Platemaker_photos/OKC%20Development/master.jpg

That's where we are headed. A large master plan. Most of the emphasis and focus right now is on the core system itself because of Project 180. But it will be coming "down the pike."

Let's just cross our fingers that the master plan and what we get out of MAPS 3 compliment each other.

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll14/Platemaker_photos/OKC%20Development/ABC.jpg

Ok, so let me get this straight. The loop around Robinson and Broadway becomes the transit mall and any streetcar coming into downtown take this loop. Due to the turn at Broadway and Sheridan streetcars will run in this loop in a clockwise direction. If correct, does this mean there is no hub because now instead of one central station we have a central loop? If we still have a hub won't streetcars be on the wrong side of the street to integrate with Sante Fe Station?

I think it would be better for the loop to run counter-clockwise (North on Broadway and south on Robinson). This would have 4 benefits.

1. The street car would be on the correct side of the street for a Bricktown station/hub at Sante Fe.
2. The train would be going with the flow of traffic at the U-turn on the north end of the loop
3. A streetcar entering the loop would make a right turn entering the central loop thus allowing it to not have to cross 2 lanes of traffic
4. The little jog in the track necessary at EKGaylord and Broadway would encourage development of the long vacant "chamber of commerce" site becasue a stop could be added right in front of it..

The problem is still the tight turn on to Broadway whick leads me to my next observation. All of the street cars I have looked at (Portland, Toronto, Europe) have the street cars in the center of the roard, or as close to as they can. They never travel in the right lane. I assume this is so they don't get stuck behind cars waiting to make right turns and avoids possible accidents with parked cars (cars pulling out of parking spaces or opening doors). If this is correct then a streetcar should be able to make the turn from the left lane of Sheridan to Broadway pretty easy.

BTW Platemaker - thanks for making adjustment by St Anthonys. With news today that this area is not living up to expectation in the TIF district this will help that area pay back the money and add a major employer/service center to the network.

Ok, so let me get this straight. The loop around Robinson and Broadway becomes the transit mall and any streetcar coming into downtown take this loop. Due to the turn at Broadway and Sheridan streetcars will run in this loop in a clockwise direction. If correct, does this mean there is no hub because now instead of one central station we have a central loop? If we still have a hub won't streetcars be on the wrong side of the street to integrate with Sante Fe Station?

I think it would be better for the loop to run counter-clockwise (North on Broadway and south on Robinson). This would have 4 benefits.

1. The street car would be on the correct side of the street for a Bricktown station/hub at Sante Fe.
2. The train would be going with the flow of traffic at the U-turn on the north end of the loop
3. A streetcar entering the loop would make a right turn entering the central loop thus allowing it to not have to cross 2 lanes of traffic
4. The little jog in the track necessary at EKGaylord and Broadway would encourage development of the long vacant "chamber of commerce" site becasue a stop could be added right in front of it..

The problem is still the tight turn on to Broadway whick leads me to my next observation. All of the street cars I have looked at (Portland, Toronto, Europe) have the street cars in the center of the roard, or as close to as they can. They never travel in the right lane. I assume this is so they don't get stuck behind cars waiting to make right turns and avoids possible accidents with parked cars (cars pulling out of parking spaces or opening doors). If this is correct then a streetcar should be able to make the turn from the left lane of Sheridan to Broadway pretty easy.

BTW Platemaker - thanks for making adjustment by St Anthonys. With news today that this area is not living up to expectation in the TIF district this will help that area pay back the money and add a major employer/service center to the network.


I like the idea of south on Broadway for the reason UP mentioned... pedestrians don't have to cross any streets that way... if it loops the other direction pedestrian have to cross both Robinson and Broadway.

I wonder id the stop being across the street is really an issue... it's not as if streetcar actually goes into the Santa Fe building... plus in the future I imagine multiple tracks in both directions across from Santa Fe.

Also... you have to go clockwise to go with the flow of traffic?

Pedestrian will have to cross the street no matter which side of the street the street car is on. As for going with the flow, the streets will be two-way. If EKG is narrowed to four lanes there might be enough room to make a streetcar plaza in front of Santa Fe.

Anyhow, I am pleased with how this is turning out so far. It has been a very educational experience.

Kerry, your line of thinking is ok, but as it relates to the hub- how it will connect hasn't been determined yet. It is possible that the the streetcar ends up being in a protected right-of-way, or a center median stop not unlike the Ferry Building in San Francisco- directly centered accross from the front doors.

The "cross overs" for Phase 2 lines are not really benefited in a counter clockwise configuration as it relates to the "transit mall".

1. The street car would be on the correct side of the street for a Bricktown station/hub at Sante Fe.

Unsure how the connection will yet be made. It is even possible that it will be a fully integrated covered area on the backside as part of the "new part" of the hub as part of a dedicated "pull through."


2. The train would be going with the flow of traffic at the U-turn on the north end of the loop

? It would make the curve seamlessly with traffic in a clockwise orientation. Counter would require crossing opposing travel lanes.


3. A streetcar entering the loop would make a right turn entering the central loop thus allowing it to not have to cross 2 lanes of traffic

Either configuration of flow would require crossovers in a couplet.


4. The little jog in the track necessary at EK Gaylord and Broadway would encourage development of the long vacant "chamber of commerce" site because a stop could be added right in front of it..

Not holding my breath on that chamber site or predicating all of the other design concerns because of it. Besides, it will have stop directly accross the street in a southbound scenario, which is close enough anyway.


Great dialogue though guys!

I don't know how comfortable I am with the idea of the rails NOT going through Bricktown, Deep Deuce, or the Arts District. Those districts are the very reason we believe streetcar can be a big hit downtown. Deep Deucers' being accustomed to walking is a cop-out. Bricktown having the hub adjacent on the other side of the tracks is an even bigger cop-out. I'm not saying these are invalid ideas, because it's true that the hub will have decent TOD potential if the elevated tracks can be traversed, and that will involve improving the connection from what it is now which stinks.

I'm just so enamored with some of OKC's current assets that I have a very romanticized vision of the modern streetcar gliding through beautiful Automobile Alley, or stopping in front of the impressive Sheridan Ave streetwall in Bricktown, and going a few blocks down Walker in the Arts District, one of OKC's most classy and most underrated corridors.

Beyond that, I'm not very concerned about the route. It will take care of itself.

________________

Some points relating to the lane discussion. It's not just Project 180 that is changing roads--Broadway in A-Alley is probably about to be restriped next year to take away 2 lanes of traffic and introduce back-in angled parking, similar to Portland. I don't know if this will be looked at as a parking trial in OKC or what, but it could eventually lead to other restripings.

So Broadway is probably only going to have ONE lane of traffic going each way. I think it might also have a left turn lane that might be a good place for the tracks. I would recommend mirroring however Portland has the back-in angled parking and streetcar interacting.

Spartan, I don't think anyone on our committee is talking about not trying to serve Bricktown, Deep Deuce, Art District, Midtown, Film Row, or other key greater downtown areas. However, the conversation on the last couple of pages has centered around the need for this strong transit "spine" for there to be a easily understood "center of gravity" in the most critical part of the system. From this spine, lines to other areas or "neighborhood collector loops" can tie in these areas that you are worried about.

I just want to say thanks to Urban Pioneer (and all the others involved) for answering questions and making things understandable.

Sure. I think it would be kind of cool to do an OKC Talk night for bloggers who regularly follow this. You guys are some of the most informed people in the community. It would make some sense to reach out and debate/solicit ideas socially. Let me know if you like this idea.

I just want to say thanks to Urban Pioneer (and all the others involved) for answering questions and making things understandable.
I agree completely. This thread is one of the most informative ever here at OkcTalk.com. Members have been good at staying on topic, and thoughts/opinions have been stated very well.

xx

xx

??

Urban: good to hear,

I know that renderings are just renderings, but that is what people saw and will remember...can't imagine the Streetcars NOT going thru Bricktown (and in the rendering case, in front of Spaghetti Warehouse).

Sure. I think it would be kind of cool to do an OKC Talk night for bloggers who regularly follow this. You guys are some of the most informed people in the community. It would make some sense to reach out and debate/solicit ideas socially. Let me know if you like this idea.

You would probably have to setup a skype meeting for about 1/2 of us.

Spartan, I don't think anyone on our committee is talking about not trying to serve Bricktown, Deep Deuce, Art District, Midtown, Film Row, or other key greater downtown areas. However, the conversation on the last couple of pages has centered around the need for this strong transit "spine" for there to be a easily understood "center of gravity" in the most critical part of the system. From this spine, lines to other areas or "neighborhood collector loops" can tie in these areas that you are worried about.

Jeff, I was not in any way remarking on what I think is the position of anyone on the committee, just what I've seen mentioned in the last few posts from other users in this thread, and in particular some of the latest user-created maps.

Wasn't there a presentation to Council (or it may have been one of the Lets Talk Transit meetings) where Bricktown was left out? Think there was another notable "oops" but I can't recall what it was right now.

The rendering I was talking about is still on the Citys MAPS 3 website, main pic leading off the Streetcars description
http://www.okc.gov/maps3/modernstreetcar.html

I think you were reffering to Rick Cain's presentation of where the majority of the AA Steering Committee "seems" to be headed. Bricktown was picked up on the southern "collector loop" on Sheridan, Stiles (I think), and the new Boulevard. No one on AA has ever proposed not going to Bricktown as far as I can recall. It simply wasn't portrayed in the first slide of his presentation.

Regarding the rendering of the streetcar in front of Nonna's, that is a chamber creation. It is an artist's concept of what they thought a streetcar looks like.

You would probably have to setup a skype meeting for about 1/2 of us.

Then let's try to do it. A lot of important - and tough - decisions are going to have to be made within the next few months if not weeks. The more input and discussion we can get from informed and insightful sources the better.

I think you were reffering to Rick Cain's presentation of where the majority of the AA Steering Committee "seems" to be headed. Bricktown was picked up on the southern "collector loop" on Sheridan, Stiles (I think), and the new Boulevard. No one on AA has ever proposed not going to Bricktown as far as I can recall. It simply wasn't portrayed in the first slide of his presentation.

That would be the presentation that Rick made to the City Council on December 21. I think Larry is referring to the Lets Talk Transit meetings. Briefly looking back through the LetsTalkTransit.com website it looks like Bricktown was always there.

A big question is do we try to reach the Health Sciences Center in the first (MAPS-funded) phase or not? But ultimately we are most certainly going to have to head up the Lincoln corridor, onto the State Capitol and on to the Northeast Side. So we need to be thinking about the best - most easily expandable - route through Bricktown and/or Deep Deuce to head in this direction now.

Kerry, what do you mean by this?

"BTW Platemaker - thanks for making adjustment by St Anthonys. With news today that this area is not living up to expectation in the TIF district this will help that area pay back the money and add a major employer/service center to the network."

Kerry, what do you mean by this?

"BTW Platemaker - thanks for making adjustment by St Anthonys. With news today that this area is not living up to expectation in the TIF district this will help that area pay back the money and add a major employer/service center to the network."

I was just refering to Platemakers vision of the route layout. His previous rendition showed the track going up Classen Dr and just catching the corner of the St Anthonys area. He changed it to take 10th St past St Anthonys to Classen and then north. As for the TIF funding comment, Steve had an article out 2 days ago that said the St Anthonys funding from TIF was not generating the return it was expecting.

Ok, so let me get this straight. The loop around Robinson and Broadway becomes the transit mall and any streetcar coming into downtown take this loop. Due to the turn at Broadway and Sheridan streetcars will run in this loop in a clockwise direction. If correct, does this mean there is no hub because now instead of one central station we have a central loop? If we still have a hub won't streetcars be on the wrong side of the street to integrate with Sante Fe Station?

I think it would be better for the loop to run counter-clockwise (North on Broadway and south on Robinson). This would have 4 benefits.

1. The street car would be on the correct side of the street for a Bricktown station/hub at Sante Fe.
2. The train would be going with the flow of traffic at the U-turn on the north end of the loop
3. A streetcar entering the loop would make a right turn entering the central loop thus allowing it to not have to cross 2 lanes of traffic
4. The little jog in the track necessary at EKGaylord and Broadway would encourage development of the long vacant "chamber of commerce" site becasue a stop could be added right in front of it..

The problem is still the tight turn on to Broadway whick leads me to my next observation. All of the street cars I have looked at (Portland, Toronto, Europe) have the street cars in the center of the roard, or as close to as they can. They never travel in the right lane. I assume this is so they don't get stuck behind cars waiting to make right turns and avoids possible accidents with parked cars (cars pulling out of parking spaces or opening doors). If this is correct then a streetcar should be able to make the turn from the left lane of Sheridan to Broadway pretty easy.

BTW Platemaker - thanks for making adjustment by St Anthonys. With news today that this area is not living up to expectation in the TIF district this will help that area pay back the money and add a major employer/service center to the network.

Oh and Kerry, I would also avoid going near EKG. That whole intersection at 4th/Broadway/EKG is a really bad design. I would avoid putting rails just because you run the risk that the intersection might be improved for the better and risk having the rails ripped up and put in all over again. EKG needs to dead-end in front of the new Y, but maybe they'll eventually get around to that realization. There is no way to make that pedestrian-friendly as it currently exists. That site is also going to be developed by the Chamber.

For debate... If extra money were to be had, or costs came in under budget....

Paseo or Plaza? What has more promise? What area needs a connection in a first phase if this were possible? Also, how important is a stop near Film Row?

Just following up on Spartan's romantic feelings for our fledgling cultural districts. Lol

All are deserving. But who needs it the most if it's possible?

Both have strong residential and local retail elements; I would have to say the Plaza District deserves it more because of its proximity to OCU. It seems that a connection to a university area would encourage even more residential investment in its immediate area than that surrounding Paseo.

Conversely, I realize it could be argued that a connection to a thriving local art district such as Paseo is of equal or greater importance as one to an educational institution and would also appeal to visitors more.

Also, I would think a stop around the Greyhound station would be a great way to bring people to the east end of Sheridan and spur development of Film Row, but is perhaps not vital in the first phase, as the new streetscape will help so much on its own.

For debate... If extra money were to be had, or costs came in under budget....

Paseo or Plaza? What has more promise? What area needs a connection in a first phase if this were possible? Also, how important is a stop near Film Row?

Just following up on Spartan's romantic feelings for our fledgling cultural districts. Lol

All are deserving. But who needs it the most if it's possible?


Since were starting a new page I thought I'd "re-post" the question.

For debate... If extra money were to be had, or costs came in under budget....

Paseo or Plaza? What has more promise? What area needs a connection in a first phase if this were possible? Also, how important is a stop near Film Row?

Just following up on Spartan's romantic feelings for our fledgling cultural districts. Lol

All are deserving. But who needs it the most if it's possible?
I was wanting to ask about this, and I assume, but do not know, that you are primarily considering the possibility of extra money which may derive via the Alternative Analysis.

At the outset, since the pre-above-definition has not been identified, the 1st step, I think, is to do so, and in this order:

In addition to the CBD, the initial route needs to include:

Bricktown
Arterial connection to the Health Sciences Center

Now, if that is included as a given, I'd say that it is a coin-toss between Paseo and Plaza, and hopefully before its all done both would be included. But, if I'd have to pick only one today, I'd pick Plaza, for 2 reasons:

Paseo is going great and doesn't need much if any help
Plaza is off to a good start but still has a good way to go, and the help would be the most useful in this part of town.

Plaza. It has retail, hospital, and residential components and massive TOD potential. I can see 10th St between St. Anthony and Broadway lines with midrise housing (3 to 5 stories).

I would say the Paseo. It gives more access to Edgemere and almost gets you to Crown Heights. It's already a more attractive destination for potential riders and would help put people in the streetcars right away. In addition, it would have to run past the renewal areas on 23rd. So, you'd get a combination of established and gentrifiable housing, a desirable destination with existing attractions for people and yet you traverse an area that has a lot of potential for new commercial development.

While I think eventually the streetcar should connect with the health sciences center, I don't think it's important enough for the first segment. We would definitely get people riding who work at the Health Sciences Center and want to lunch downtown or in Bricktown. Ultimately it might encourage people who work at the Health Sciences Center to rent or purchase housing in Bricktown or Deep Deuce, atlhough some do already. But, I don't think we have enough data to show that people seeking medical care would need to access the Health Sciences Center via a streetcar centered in downtown, and I don't think we can justify that much money so I can go to Bricktown for lunch.

Right now I think the urban vacuum in between the downtown core and the health sciences center, and the lack of anything dense for half of that journey, that it should be done as a Phase 2. I would imagine streetcar will be a lot easier to find funding for after the first phase.


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For debate... If extra money were to be had, or costs came in under budget....

Paseo or Plaza? What has more promise? What area needs a connection in a first phase if this were possible? Also, how important is a stop near Film Row?

Just following up on Spartan's romantic feelings for our fledgling cultural districts. Lol

All are deserving. But who needs it the most if it's possible?

I don't think Film Row is essential but at this point it has to be lumped with the Arts District until Film Row shows development for any other purpose. If there is a line that curves along Walker and Sheridan, that would have decent proximity to serve most of Film Row.

Paseo or Plaza is a toss-up. I would imagine eventually both have to be served, but Plaza is somewhat closer to downtown, being just across Classen. Paseo goes up to 30th where it gets good.

It seems to me that we have to decide whether the train is for getting people around downtown conveniently, or to get people into downtown for work. There isn't enough residential downtown to justify the train to get people OUT to other neighborhoods.

The way I look at it is that it is a circulation system for downtown that will ultimately become a distribution and collection system for the future intermodal hub and commuter rail stops on the N/S axis.

However, it can be argued that it could become an inner city system like we used to have. Plaza is definitely far away from the commuter rail cooridoor. But even from 23rd to 63rd the commuter rail is on the east side of Broadway Ext. So a parallel interior streetcar cooridoor is warranted for those neighborhoods.

I picture Film Row feeding off a future line with two-way track on West Broadway.

As far as choosing the Paseo or the Plaza as an extension... i'd want to know what alignment was being used first.

Original streetcar system had I line that traveled north along Blackwelder from Linwood to the Plaza district (with plans to go to 23rd along Carey Place that were never fully realized).

If we pretend that we built the system Ive posted on here we could branch off along NW 10th Street then up Indiana to OKC University. 10th has enormous potential on the north (vacant) side... I picture low to mid-rise mixed use. It then connects the Plaza and OCU. It also is very close to significant existing residential. This would be a 3 mile extension... total.

To go to the Paseo we would have two options.... extend the line up Robinson to about 28th-30th then west to the Paseo. This also connects a lot of residental the Paseo and part of 23rd Street..... 3.5 mile extension.

Or... you extend up Classen and branch on 30th to the Paseo.... this route connects residential but has much more commercial area to develop. This would be less than 3 miles of an extension.... I'd vote for this one.

Basically... why choose? We can get both for less than the starter system.

If we use the first 6 miles wisely... future extensions of less or equal length could have a potentially massive positive impact... I'm sure at this point in our future residents would have seen the importance and impact of the MAPS 3 streetcar and be much more likely to embrace expansion.
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll14/Platemaker_photos/Maps/test.png

I could be wrong, but most light rail is to get commuters from the suburbs to the inner city where they work to reduce the cars on the city streets and freeways. It is not developed as an alternative to inner city buses or subways. Putting light rail in isn't about real estate development, but rather air quality, commuter times, street and hwy safety, keeping cars out of downtown, etc. Using that logic, it seems the initial rail system should be to move people to places they will want to go once they come into the downtown area. Then the feeder lines from Edmond, Norman, Dell/Midwest City, Yukon/Mustang will bring them in and connect up all the downtown locations. We already have the trolley system for those already downtown (though severely flawed) and we know how that has worked out.

We're talking about streetcars here... light rail is a little different altogether.

For those that interested, and have the time, check out the streetcar system in Oslo, Norway. They have an extensive downtown circulator with branches that go out to the city at large (kind of like spokes on a wheel). I started mapping it in Google Earth but it has many more miles of track than I was expecting so it is taking a while.

Sure. I think it would be kind of cool to do an OKC Talk night for bloggers who regularly follow this. You guys are some of the most informed people in the community. It would make some sense to reach out and debate/solicit ideas socially. Let me know if you like this idea.

Sounds like a blast.

Platemaker, I don't think downtown can be served with just a Broadway/Robinson transit mall. I think you have to pair it with something else, and I think like it or not, we need to focus the 6 miles on something more comprehensive that serves more of downtown. There is not the kind of density needed to start supporting streetcar to larger portions of the city overall. You have to start by transforming one square mile into a streetcar district. Once you've done that, move on to more ambitious goals.

It's also very important that the first phase is a complete system on its own, because it will have to stand alone for the time being until more funding is found. Initial success will also be pivotal to expanding the system, winning over the public, gaining public trust, and gaining confidence from funding sources at the local, state, and federal level--we have to rely on other funding sources for expansion, period. They will be judging based on the first phase, so it is important that the first phase not be incomplete and that it take people everywhere they could want to go within downtown, first. It must be whole; the first phase can not be an incomplete downtown system matched with an incomplete north side system because that will fail.

It might also be easier if we went back to the basics, with the clear understanding that there should be a E/W spine and a N/S spine. Robinson-Broadway is clearly our N/S spine, and that's a winner, we all agree on that--but we can't leave out the E/W spine, and it needs to be something that can thread together the mixed-use developments forming vibrant areas in Bricktown, Deep Deuce, and the Arts District. Sheridan works for that, but you can only go one way down Sheridan due to some underground utilities on one side. Reno goes nowhere near Deep Deuce, so that's not a good pair imo but the closest potential pair in Deep Deuce is NE 2nd Street. Would Sheridan-2nd/Kerr be a good couplet for an E/W spine?

I just feel like a Broadway/Sheridan spine is already walkable to the already walkable districts in our already compact downtown... If we try connecting every 'district' we've created we are just making a tourist trolley going in circles. I think we have to open the streetcar to 'regular' residents and not just those that can afford to live downtown.

I just feel like a Broadway/Sheridan spine is already walkable to the already walkable districts in our already compact downtown... If we try connecting every 'district' we've created we are just making a tourist trolley going in circles. I think we have to open the streetcar to 'regular' residents and not just those that can afford to live downtown.

I'm not sure it will be a tourist trolley unless someone comes along who starts prioritizing the Ballpark, the memorial, bar and the convention center and literally builds a system around that. I think downtown already has a lot of regular residents, and in order for there to be a resurgence in urban living in OKC, it has to first win downtown over.

The problem with going north is Heritage Hills and Mesta Park aren't very dense. If you dropped someone from an older, eastern city in the middle of those neighborhoods the first impression they'd have is of being in a very nice suburb. I think there is some serious potential for turning 23rd into a transit corridor and doing a few neighborhood loops, such as a Classen/Western couplet and finding a couplet through the Plaza/Gatewood/Classen-Ten-Penn/OCU area (and the Plaza and Western couplets could easily be a self-functioning loop that connects to the entire system as well).

And I'd say not to forget about the south side of the city. You're going to have to balance the streetcar investment to not leave the southside out or else voters will be put off, and won't think all citizens are being served fairly.

And I'd say not to forget about the south side of the city. You're going to have to balance the streetcar investment to not leave the southside out or else voters will be put off, and won't think all citizens are being served fairly.

Agreed, Spartan. The Capitol Hill area, as a minimum, needs to be considered in the long range streetcar planning.

Capitol Hill needs to be in the medium-range. If you go to Paseo, you better go to Capitol Hill before you go to Plaza as well. I'd say get to Stockyards City and some of the areas in between too--the southside is the densest part of the city, so it shouldn't be too hard to get at least a 40/60 balance of streetcar north and south (excluding areas between Reno and 10th).

Capitol Hill needs to be in the medium-range. If you go to Paseo, you better go to Capitol Hill before you go to Plaza as well. I'd say get to Stockyards City and some of the areas in between too--the southside is the densest part of the city, so it shouldn't be too hard to get at least a 40/60 balance of streetcar north and south (excluding areas between Reno and 10th).

And I think the inner city southside residents are probably more open to using forms of mass transit than those of the north side.

Capitol Hill needs to be in the medium-range. If you go to Paseo, you better go to Capitol Hill before you go to Plaza as well. I'd say get to Stockyards City and some of the areas in between too--the southside is the densest part of the city, so it shouldn't be too hard to get at least a 40/60 balance of streetcar north and south (excluding areas between Reno and 10th).

That's one of the appeals of Robinson as part of the route, IMO: you have direct access to Capitol Hill. And I agree that extensions to both the south and north need to be considered equally when the time comes.

I think preferences should be given to areas where the local businessmen/developers are already investing to make better. For instance, through Asian district and Paseo vs. Capital Hill where there has been very little private investment, it seems.

For those that interested, and have the time, check out the streetcar system in Oslo, Norway. They have an extensive downtown circulator with branches that go out to the city at large (kind of like spokes on a wheel). I started mapping it in Google Earth but it has many more miles of track than I was expecting so it is taking a while.

When you are able to assemble something on this, I would be very interested. I don't think that any of us have studier Norway yet. Don't feel obligated, but if you have some pictures and maps, that would be cool.

Rover, You should take another look at Capitol Hill, while I would agree some of the businesses aren't very white bread-friendly, the district is increasingly becoming more diverse in its businesses, and there are a few community groups doing a lot of clean-up there. Sometime this week you should go and try the chicken fried steak at the Grill on the Hill, which is popular with the Gazette.