Yes, I was thinking that a line to the capitol would be very good for our downtown restaurants. It would also make living downtown or on the streetcar line more attractive for some of them. I don't know if that would be cost effective for the city, but it would certainly create good press.

(btw, how cool is it that we can have this discussion within the context of something that is actually going to happen)

It is amazing to have this type of discussion!

If you look at this map, and also look at Platemakers then, calculate the milage it is right at 6 miles.

From the State Capitol area, through Bricktown, down to Union Station (new park area), back around to Arts District, down Walker to Midtown 10th, stopping at 13th and Classen.
This map seems to be fairly correlative to Platemaker's but it looks like it goes further south to the southern tip of the park.

http://www.mtpokc.com/img/about/connections.jpg

Here is the Platemaker map. It has nearly the same route as above only on an actual city map.




http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll14/Platemaker_photos/overlay.jpg

Union Station is on SW 7th Street, this is the southermost point and if we were to end the Nortwest point at 13th and Classen, also the Northeast point at 23rd and Lincoln.

Not a bad route at least for discussion purposes. And it gives us our 6 miles of streetcar.

So my next question would be,

Where would the best location in downtown Okc be to develop the rail trasit hub?

I think it's expected to go along the BNSF line south of Reno, near the Convention Center site (so it can connect to commuter rail).


(btw, how cool is it that we can have this discussion within the context of something that is actually going to happen)

Very!


Why doesn't the city try to get the state to extend the streetcar up to the Capitol? Just tell them the city can't afford to go that far, and if they want it, to chip in $15-20 million for a mile from OUHSC to the Capitol.

Tulsa would never have it! LOL

This is by far the most significant item in this thread. Our timing is unbelievable.

How much more rail could we get for an additional $25 million?

Streetcar projects eligible for new USDOT grants

Yesterday, the U.S. Department of Transportation (USDOT) announced $280 million is available in federal grants for urban circulator projects, such as streetcar and bus systems.

The money represents the first batch of funding provided by the Obama Administration through the Livability Initiative, a joint venture comprising USDOT, the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development, and U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.

The Federal Transit Administration (FTA) will provide a maximum of $25 million per streetcar or other urban circulator project using discretionary funds from the New Starts/Small Starts program. The administration will place priority on projects that “connect destinations and foster the redevelopment of communities into walkable, mixed-use, high-density environments,” according to a prepared statement.

The FTA expects to announce grant recipients in early 2010.

How much more rail could we get for an additional $25 million?


A mile, maybe two?

But any little bit of help we can get from fed/state grants will mean more money in the fund for the transit center.

The stops on that map omit OCU Law.

I can't imagine that not being a stop.

That graphic was made long before OCU announced their plans.

That graphic was made long before OCU announced their plans.

I would sincerely hope that developers (even OCU/Jones Family) would consider using TIF for helping extend the streetcar into proposed area/developments.

In the OCU case, I am sure that sort of project would also have an increased attractiveness to Federal supplemental.

Just keep that in mind developers! We have a alot of ground to cover with what we have approved. Help us out!

I was watching the video of McCain and Coburn list out examples of some of the crazy projects federal stimulus money is funding. I wonder how much of the MAPS projects we could get stimulus money to fund and build?

I don't really care for the loop thru the Health Science Center. It already passes the complex along Lincoln and it is a pretty long detour just to join Lincoln again only one block from where it departed. Maybe they should think about their own people mover system at the complex that connects to a street car station along Lincoln.

I don't really care for the loop thru the Health Science Center. It already passes the complex along Lincoln and it is a pretty long detour just to join Lincoln again only one block from where it departed. Maybe they should think about their own people mover system at the complex that connects to a street car station along Lincoln.

this.

I don't really care for the loop thru the Health Science Center. It already passes the complex along Lincoln and it is a pretty long detour just to join Lincoln again only one block from where it departed. Maybe they should think about their own people mover system at the complex that connects to a street car station along Lincoln.

I agree. Having a stop at 13th, 10th, and 8th, along Lincoln will be more than sufficient.

We need to make sure that every linear foot of track has a specific purpose.

Plus it would add a couple of more minutes to a trip and still only cover the 1 block of Lincoln.

I'
Plus it would add a couple of more minutes to a trip and still only cover the 1 block of Lincoln.

Yes. They really need to think through the route(s) and the stops. It's critical. The thing has to be a viable form of transit. As efficient as possible, yet with enough stops to be useful. Too many stops would be a problem. Too few is a problem.

Another problem is if the big picture gets scrambled by powerful interests insisting on stops, etc.

This is going to be an exciting challenge. It needs to be big picture thinking and as pure a design process as possible.

The stuff I'm hearing from some insiders indicates they're going to do this the right way.

Urban Pioneer,

I have another question maybe you could answer.

The 5 to 6 miles, is that total miles of track both ways or one way only?

Example; If I were to go from the Capitol to Bricktown and back is that 2 miles of streetcar or is that considered 4 miles?

Okay, I'm excited that this is all coming to pass. I can barely believe that OKC is moving ahead with this. It's all sort of surreal.

That said, I have a few questions. I'm sure they're easy to answer, but I just don't know how some of this will work at this point.

First batch:
On a spoke and hub system, how do these streetcars turn around?
Once they get where they're going, is there a little loop and they just start going back the other direction? Or will there be two sets of track, so that "6 miles" is really 12?
If it travels the same track back the other direction, does that mean that there can only ever be one streetcar on a given spoke at any one time?
How long does that mean you'd have to wait until another car came along?
Would that make it difficult to decrease the time between cars at peak ridership times?

Second:
With streetcars running on regular public streets, what happens when some idiot slams his car into one of the streetcars?
How much of the system would they have to shut down in the case of a serious accident? Just that spoke?
These things get powered by... an overhead power line? How are those held aloft?
What happens in the case of regular old street maintenance, like repaving the road?
How will we run the track in Bricktown, will the brick streets there require any special treatment when we put in tracks?

Just curious on a lot of this stuff. Urban Pioneer?

^^ Great questions.

Hoya - Here are some of your answers.

On a spoke and hub system, how do these streetcars turn around?
The car are bi-directional so they just start going the other way. There is no back or front and seats face both directions.

Once they get where they're going, is there a little loop and they just start going back the other direction? Or will there be two sets of track, so that "6 miles" is really 12?
Usually at the end of line there are two sets of tracks. In Tampa the street car travels both directions on just one track so there are a few places where there are siding so they can pass each other. In Memphis they have dedicated directions, which I like better by the way becasue they can serve both sides of the street and flow better with traffic.

If it travels the same track back the other direction, does that mean that there can only ever be one streetcar on a given spoke at any one time?
There are passing tracks.

How long does that mean you'd have to wait until another car came along?
Yes it does and it can be annoying when you riding during lunch hour.

Would that make it difficult to decrease the time between cars at peak ridership times?
Yes it would. We were in Memphis on Friday night and I am not kidding - there was a trolley every 30 seconds.

With streetcars running on regular public streets, what happens when some idiot slams his car into one of the streetcars?
That is a problem but no more of a problem then someone hitting another car. In place where I have seen dedicated tracks for each direction they have switches every few blocks that can divert trains around an obsticle by just having them cross the street.

How much of the system would they have to shut down in the case of a serious accident? Just that spoke?
See the above answer.

These things get powered by... an overhead power line? How are those held aloft?
Poles similar to street lights and in some cases - actual street lights. They can be quite decorative.

What happens in the case of regular old street maintenance, like repaving the road?
As long as they don't touch the tracks then there is no prolem.

How will we run the track in Bricktown, will the brick streets there require any special treatment when we put in tracks?
Anywhere the track go will have to be seriously reinforced. In Tampa they poured a ton of concrete to put the track on.

I much favor a loop system. That would make it a lot easier to add more cars onto the track at peak times and have more service during then. With a hub and spoke, there would only be one car on a track. The loop system would also encourage downtown to develop much more organically.

The hub and spoke system does have one advantage though, and that's that a collision with a car would have less impact on a spoke than if it were on a loop that the entire system is along.

Brick streets are no big deal.

Here's an example of what's happened in Houston with LIGHT RAIL. LRT typically moves a lot faster than streetcar and is less accessible to pedestrians, therefor it usually has its own right of way..but not in Houston. Streetcar typically poses next do NO risk to cars or pedestrians because it's slower and more accessible to pedestrians, stops more often, etc.

YouTube - Metro's Greatest Hits (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV2rdGX4JYc)

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/CV2rdGX4JYc&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/CV2rdGX4JYc&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

edit: looks like Kerry already beat me to some of the answers..

Here are some photos of Historic street car lines (OKC will be modern street car)

http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/1/2/5/9125.1067121480.jpg
End of the line dual track station in Ybor City (Tampa)

http://www.railwaypreservation.com/vintagetrolley/Tampa_Downtown_extension_route_sm.JPG

The Tampa system is at-grade but seperated from travel lane using a small curb.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/TampaTrackChanelsideAug08.jpg

View of power lines and poles (Tampa)

http://www.railwaypreservation.com/vintagetrolley/Memphis_2006_Main_2_sm.JPG

In Memphis the trolley moves to the center of the road at some intersetions to pass traffic.

http://www.heritagetrolley.com/images/Memphis01.jpg

Pedestrian mall in downtown Memphis - notice the dual tracks and decorative poles

Here's an example of what's happened in Houston with LIGHT RAIL. LRT typically moves a lot faster than streetcar and is less accessible to pedestrians, therefor it usually has its own right of way..but not in Houston.

I will never make a left turn in Houston again. I hope those people were all okay.

Oh, I guess I misunderstood. I thought the streetcars would be running in regular traffic lanes, so that your car would be in the same lane as the streetcar, and you'd be stopped at a red light sitting behind the thing. It doesn't look that way from the pics you've posted.

Thanks Kerry and Spartan!

I was watching the video of McCain and Coburn list out examples of some of the crazy projects federal stimulus money is funding. I wonder how much of the MAPS projects we could get stimulus money to fund and build?

All eight of them make more sense than these research studies at OU and OSU.

Oh, I guess I misunderstood. I thought the streetcars would be running in regular traffic lanes, so that your car would be in the same lane as the streetcar, and you'd be stopped at a red light sitting behind the thing. It doesn't look that way from the pics you've posted.

Thanks Kerry and Spartan!

It is possible that the street cars will be directly in the travel lanes as tha happens in Memphis but these aren't moving that fast, unlike the Houston system. Having a high speed train running in traffic just doesn't sound like a good idea.

MTP Concept #1 - Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&ll=35.476608,-97.515593&spn=0.041449,0.070553&z=14&msid=107022609557984163662.00047a6108ae1e640478a)

That would be an incredible route. It's not the spoke concept the mayor said he favored, and I don't know how many miles that covers, but it we could get the line all the way up to 23rd St. that would be great.

8.6 miles

I would have to think the system would be far cheaper to build if built in existing traffic lanes. Rail construction is extremely expensive - does the amount of money allotted for this project cover the cost of right-of-way purchase that would be necessary in some locations?

In order for rail transit to be efficient and embraced by the public, the design needs to be such that direct service to primary destination areas is maximized and the need for transfers is minimized.

A circulating loop design can eliminate transfers, but it also can increase travel times if riders have to travel a longer distance and make more stops to get where they are going.

A spoke and hub design can allow for more direct service and reduced travel times to the varioius primary destination areas, while keeping transfer requirements to a minimum at the hub.

Another important aspect in the design is to make sure it allows for increased capacity as the entire regional rail system grows.

A circulating loop design addresses that need by being able to simply add more trains into the loop.

As Kerry points out, a spoke and hub design can also meet those needs as long as the design includes double tracking or sidetracks for the street cars to pass in opposite directions.

A lot of expert planning and engineering services will be necessary to get the most for the money and make the system the best it can be, both now and into the future.

On a very related subject, I just saw this on the Light Rail Now website

Cincinnati: Rail Transit Wins at Last - Light Rail Now (http://www.lightrailnow.org/news/n_cin_2009-11a.htm)

Last month Cincinnati voters approved a similar initiative for a modern street car system.

The Light Rail Now website is a great resource for rail transit supporters. I'd encourage all of those who are interested in this issue to take a good look at the information they have assembled.

A very exciting time for OKC and rail transit!!!

I like that route as well, but I think Heritage Hills would NIMBY it.

I am thinking the trolley needs to go down Reno as it passes through Bricktown. Reno is wider so the trolley track can be made separate from the road and then it can pass between the current Cox Convention Center and the Ford Center. Plus, that will make it only one block off the new boulevard. It would allow front door service to the Harkin Theater and Baseball Stadium, nearly direct access to water taxis, and will save space along Sheridan for horse drawn carriages. Sheridan is already a pretty cool street, I think adding street cars to it will make it too crowded.

Keep in mind folks that Jeff Speck has sold this city on street narrowing and eliminating all one way streets. It is a great opportunity to consider taking a lane here or there and making exclusively for transit. EK Gaylord in front of SanteFe Station is a great example.

I like that route as well, but I think Heritage Hills would NIMBY it.

It would be interesting, considering they were probably the biggest yes in the whole city. I don't think that a streetcar route should go through Heritage Hills or Mesta Park anyway...although it's worth noting the former route up and down Robinson, in that wide grassy median.

I'm perfectly happy to have it run right by my house. I've already got the trains, might has well have the streetcar. On a cold or rainy night, it would beat walking to the Ford Center.

It would be interesting, considering they were probably the biggest yes in the whole city. I don't think that a streetcar route should go through Heritage Hills or Mesta Park anyway...although it's worth noting the former route up and down Robinson, in that wide grassy median.

Also Shartel through Mesta Park.

I mentioned it earlier but no one else has, do we not need the streetcar to have a stop at the boathouses? I would think we would.

I'm glad you mentioned that UrbanPioneer, I've wondered if the city takes those medians in to account when planning these routes. I mean, these neighborhoods were originally designed around an inner city street car system. One of the old routes dead ends about 2 houses down from me, and I can say, it really makes me sad to think about how awesome the neighborhood would be if it were still there. I would LOVE too see some of those medians torn out and returned to their original use, who knows, they might even be pre-reinforced to handle the weight of the cars. Does anyone know if the original transit layout will have any effect on the new one?

It would be interesting, considering they were probably the biggest yes in the whole city. I don't think that a streetcar route should go through Heritage Hills or Mesta Park anyway...although it's worth noting the former route up and down Robinson, in that wide grassy median.


Sorry, credit where credit is due, it was Spartans comment I was commenting on....

I mentioned it earlier but no one else has, do we not need the streetcar to have a stop at the boathouses? I would think we would.

It would be nice, but it's pretty out of the way. If we do spokes, I'd say it's more likely than if it's a loop.

Sounds like a great "phase 2" consideration.

How do people in general feel about Broadway in a transit context? I mean, speculatively if it were Walker versus Broadway on a "Northbound route" which has greater appeal in a redevelopment impact? For that matter even Hudson (great expanses of vacant lots).

How do people in general feel about Broadway in a transit context? I mean, speculatively if it were Walker versus Broadway on a "Northbound route" which has greater appeal in a redevelopment impact? For that matter even Hudson (great expanses of vacant lots).

I have been thinking along the same lines.

Interesting question. I think it comes down to this: Do you believe that

a) the streetcar would have the most impact where it can front completely new development

or

b) the streetcar would have the most impact where it fronts existing buildings that are prime for mixed use redevelopment


I lean towards opinion B, but I'm not married to the idea.

If only we had more than the 5 or 6 miles to work with.

Hmmm. I probably am biased towards Broadway, because I like it so much better as a street. But also, the concept of a "broad way" implies it is the most important street in a city or town. To me, it's more central, as it's closer to Bricktown, the Ford Center, etc, but again, that's my personal bias. Hudson does have much vaster expanses of open land, but what could we expect to be built along it? Would it have as much visual appeal?

Broadway vs. Walker/Hudson is a tough question. Broadway already has businesses and it is prime to be a main retail street in the future. Do we reward those businesses by giving them a streetcar connection, or do we encourage more businesses and developments by putting the streetcar in an area with vacant lots.

If we used Hudson on the west and Oklahoma Ave on the east, then Automobile Alley would be within 3 blocks to the west and 2 blocks to the east of streetcar connection. Is that okay? How far will people walk from a streetcar stop?

Here is a graphic that Blair Humphreys did showing walk times, to give us an idea of how far people can walk to/from streetcar lines.

http://imaginativeamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/imagi_parking_walking-640x279.jpg

And here is an aerial image showing just how much infill potential there is in our downtown/Midtown areas. Imagine empty lots and parking lots filling with dense, transit-oriented development as a result of having a streetcar connection. Also note that almost every major building in this frame has already been renovated or is currently being renovated to retail or loft residences.

http://www.rezoneokc.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/midtown.jpg


If only we had more than the 5 or 6 miles to work with.

Yeah, I thought it sounded like a lot, and if it existed today it'd be America's biggest modern streetcar system, but imagine if we had 10 miles... ;) But hey, I'm just happy it's really happening at all! Wow!

I'm glad you mentioned that UrbanPioneer, I've wondered if the city takes those medians in to account when planning these routes. I mean, these neighborhoods were originally designed around an inner city street car system. One of the old routes dead ends about 2 houses down from me, and I can say, it really makes me sad to think about how awesome the neighborhood would be if it were still there. I would LOVE too see some of those medians torn out and returned to their original use, who knows, they might even be pre-reinforced to handle the weight of the cars. Does anyone know if the original transit layout will have any effect on the new one?

Not sure where your neighborhood is, but I know that on N. Youngs Blvd., just S. of NW 23rd, there's still a small section of tracks in the pavement.

After looking at the downtown map and considering "who is who", Sheridan will definitely have the east / west line going from Lincoln to Classen.

That stretch is 1.5 miles, now we are down to 4 miles left.

The north / south line needs to be? _____ (This is the question remaining.)

I think that there are a lot of great ideas going around here. I loved EBAH's account of how much he/she would appreciate actually bringing the streetcar back to the neighborhoods it once traveled through. I can also appreciate the perspective that we SHOULD have a stop at OCU Law, the Boathouses, etc.. it should go through Bricktown, Devon should have a stop, etc etc..

So many good ideas.

Let's focus on an organic system that covers downtown. Just downtown. Nothing else. If it stops through Bricktown and past Devon and creates some really cool opportunities along Automobile Alley, that's great. But we just need a starter system with this 6 miles. No doubt that we have a big big downtown area to cover, including a lot of areas we never would have considered downtown a few years ago. Let's just cover as much and try and have an organic system approach with this first step.

It's good that we have so many good ideas. Let's also make plans for a Phase 2 that can include a second loop that goes further out, to Classen and down to the Boathouses, and maybe the State Capitol.. but unfortunately those things are undoubtedly located too far out from the center of the action for us to include in the 6 mile segment.

But by all means, let's make plans to include these things with street car further down the road..

Does anyone know how the other cities (Portland, Memphis, Little Rock, Seattle) fund their streetcar system?

I have just sort of assumed it should go up Broadway and head west at 10th and get on walker there or head NW along Plaza Court.
However, there are some things to ponder about a Walker line. Broadway is fairly car friendly and its a busier road while Walker would seem like more of the "neighborhood" line, going straight to midtown, our best hope for a dense, urban, and walkable place to live. Also meaning more (re)investment oppurtunities.

You know, another thing to think about is that diagonal street we approved in the 2007 bond issue that goes from Hudson (7th I think) to the Midtown Traffic Circle. Brand new street, cost savings?

It is my understanding that the city is going to buy that duplex at 8th/Hudson and demolish it?

Does this project offer an opportunity for a more efficient streetcar connection to Midtown?

How do people in general feel about Broadway in a transit context? I mean, speculatively if it were Walker versus Broadway on a "Northbound route" which has greater appeal in a redevelopment impact? For that matter even Hudson (great expanses of vacant lots).

Do we have to pick. They would both be great.

Broadway to 23rd would be cool if it turned on 23rd and went West.

It would obviously be great to see the land along Walker fill in, though, linking downtown to Midtown.

Not sure where your neighborhood is, but I know that on N. Youngs Blvd., just S. of NW 23rd, there's still a small section of tracks in the pavement.

that's just one of the dead ends.

There's another one all the way West at 19th and Meridian. It's amazing how far it went at one time.

You know, another thing to think about is that diagonal street we approved in the 2007 bond issue that goes from Hudson (7th I think) to the Midtown Traffic Circle. Brand new street, cost savings?

It is my understanding that the city is going to buy that duplex at 8th/Hudson and demolish it?

I didn't know anything about this. Got a map?

I think we need to start making a list of the places we want to go. Forget about places it "needs" to connect, let's think about who we are and where we would take a streetcar. This will only work if people actually want to use it. I think we get a little ahead of ourselves trying to connect it to everybody, without determining if it takes people where they want to go.

I'm imagining using it at lunch. There are times when I'd like to go into Bricktown to eat, but I get out of court late, and I'd have to drive over there and park to get back on time, and sometimes I just don't want to do that. So I'd like a stop that ran from the courthouse to Bricktown. Something that would go by Abuelos, put me a short hop from Zio's, and run on down to Crabtown. Something where I'd be within a two minute walk of the nicer places to eat once I got off the streetcar. It would also be nice if I could take it from Bricktown restaurants to the Ford Center. I also would like to be able to take the streetcar up to McNellie's after work. Hit those areas and I'm happy.

I have been thinking along the same lines.

No pun intended, right?