Best bet is probably to try and land some funding from the infrastructure bill. No idea how realistic of a possibility that is, but seems like it's either that or wait until a decade from now when (hopefully) the RTA has been funded and the commuter rail corridor from Edmond to Norman has been completed.

Not completely sure, Urbanized can fill in the details on this one. From what I remember, there were a ton of recommendations from anybody with half a brain to use signal prioritization on quite a few intersections, but the committee decided to not do them (because of the cost and the horrible massive disruption to automobile traffic, I think), then they got pushed into doing a few, and then they maybe did a few more, then they stopped and said "Yeah, that's enough", even though it's probably not. The powers-that-be here in the city just can't see beyond carscarscarscars (it's getting better, but not by much, and not fast enough - the bike lanes on Main/General Pershing are ridiculous because for the most part, they're just painted lines).

the committee wanted all of the prioritization it could get at every intersection ...

the push back was from city public works .....

Urban Pioneer probably…I wasn’t personally involved in streetcar.
...

Yeah, you're right, sorry. Anyway, all that info should be back in the thread somewhere.

I don’t think the fare is the obstacle; it’s the meandering route.
This. The route is just bad.

Whatever happened to Urban Pioneer?

yep... always thought this route was a terrible choice. and it keeps showing to be. they made it to be pretty and stand out, not to stir development or be practical for transportation.

To be clear I was really mostly saying not that the route was bad but instead that a couple of tweaks could make it much better. Streamlined, more efficient, quicker and easier to use.

yep... always thought this route was a terrible choice. and it keeps showing to be. they made it to be pretty and stand out, not to stir development or be practical for transportation.

The streetcar subcommittee really didn’t have much of a choice. The consultant returned them a series of bad options and they didn’t have the authority or political backing to tell the consultant to try again. They picked the least bad option

Urbanized has some great points on some ways to modify the existing route to make the best of the bones of it, but I don’t see how that would fly politically.

This. The route is just bad.

Whatever happened to Urban Pioneer?

The route is absolutely hopeless, a true fiasco.

yep... always thought this route was a terrible choice. and it keeps showing to be. they made it to be pretty and stand out, not to stir development or be practical for transportation.

the route was the only political viable option .. and if the system is expanded / regional rail gets built this route will work better and better..

Street car was stopped twice last night after the Thunder game for people parking over the white line west of the Myriad Gardens. Thankfully they made it bye but is this issues still happening a lot. Is the city towing them or doing anything about it. I didn't see any parking tickets on the car or a tow truck near by. Of course it was a Sunday night so probably nothing happened.

Saw it happen a couple Sundays ago in Auto Alley as well

They need to put a plow on the front of the streetcar and just run it through.

Absolutely absurd that this is still happening! Thought they had a tow service on call and were supposed to get cars out of the way immediately. Why can't OKC figure things out (or implement things) that other cities have had figured out for years or decades...

Surprised a "free market" situation hasn't arisen where some tow truck companies aren't just floating around ready to tow someone downtown while they're on call for other work.

the route was the only political viable option .. and if the system is expanded / regional rail gets built this route will work better and better..

I missed this before. This isn't really true. It's the only type of option the consultant wanted to promote. They swore up and down that couplets were better.

I missed this before. This isn't really true. It's the only type of option the consultant wanted to promote. They swore up and down that couplets were better.

it is absolutely true .. all the way back to the Alternative analysis process and the Maps transit subcommittee ..

I took the Amtrak from Fort Worth to OKC last night, which went smoothly despite snow/ice save a one hour to delay to de-ice a switch. A number of people made their way from DFW airport to Amtrak when their flights were cancelled. Anyway, I was surprised to see the OKC streetcar running at 11pm last night (it was predictably empty) because the DART in Dallas closed for the entire day. The reason I was told is because the overhead wires of the DART shouldn't operate in freezing temperatures. This didn't affect the A-Train, TRE, or Amtrak that don't have overhead wires and I was able to ride those yesterday. So my question is, what's different about OKC's streetcar and the DART?

I took the Amtrak from Fort Worth to OKC last night, which went smoothly despite snow/ice save a one hour to delay to de-ice a switch. A number of people made their way from DFW airport to Amtrak when their flights were cancelled. Anyway, I was surprised to see the OKC streetcar running at 11pm last night (it was predictably empty) because the DART in Dallas closed for the entire day. The reason I was told is because the overhead wires of the DART shouldn't operate in freezing temperatures. This didn't affect the A-Train, TRE, or Amtrak that don't have overhead wires and I was able to ride those yesetday. So my question is, what's different about OKC's streetcar and the DART?

We didn't get much actual freezing rain here, just sleet. The freezing rain sticks to wires but sleet doesn't.

I took the Amtrak from Fort Worth to OKC last night, which went smoothly despite snow/ice save a one hour to delay to de-ice a switch. A number of people made their way from DFW airport to Amtrak when their flights were cancelled. Anyway, I was surprised to see the OKC streetcar running at 11pm last night (it was predictably empty) because the DART in Dallas closed for the entire day. The reason I was told is because the overhead wires of the DART shouldn't operate in freezing temperatures. This didn't affect the A-Train, TRE, or Amtrak that don't have overhead wires and I was able to ride those yesetday. So my question is, what's different about OKC's streetcar and the DART?

Having been a trainman for 38 years on the ATSF/BNSF, I thought it odd that there are no switch heaters on this line as opposed to the east west mainline KC to CA. Back in the day, on the ATSF, the track dept would place heater pots, that burned kerosene under the switch points during winter storms, to keep the points clean of ice, and working. I heard it was an EPA thing on the kerosene burning, but when a crew has to stop 3-4 locomotives to clean out switches by hand, and then start moving again, it doesn’t make sense.

also OKC Streetcar has much less overhead wire. It's only located at dwelling location and for a few blocks here and there compared to 'traditional' LRT lines like DART which require overhead for the entirity of the course.

Um, it's like 50/50 or 60/40. Somewhere WAY upthread this was mentioned/discussed I believe.

i was just in OKC and we rode the streetcar many times the week we were there and I don't recall seeing much if any overhead wire anywhere aside from Reno and some of the stops/dwelling locations. Definitely no-where near 50/50 or 60 wire/40 not - as we were specifically looking to compare to ours in Seattle (about 70 wire/40 not) and Tacoma (which has full wire).

I wonder where is Urban Pioneer - he'd likely know.

Using Google Maps to measure, it's about 60% on wire/40% off wire.

All of the Bricktown portion of the route and all of the Automobile Alley/Midtown portions are on-wire. It goes on-wire at 4th and Hudson, and stays on-wire until the OCU Law stop at 7th and Robinson. Returns to on-wire immediately past the BNSF viaduct upon entering Bricktown on Sheridan, then the pantograph is once again lowered BEFORE leaving Bricktown at BNSF/Reno. It’s definitely on-wire for more than half the route.

Quite an oversight to stop service on Sunday, July 3rd at 10pm when 25,000+ at Scissortail Park were celebrating at Red White and Boom. Hundreds of us were just standing at the park platform dumbfounded that service ended at its normal time. Although I didn't mind walking back to my apartment in Midtown (I needed the steps anyway), it annoyed me that others, some of whom had taken the streetcar for the first time earlier that evening to park and ride, had this experience. Really unfortunate. I hadn't seen the streetcars this packed (Sunday afternoon into early evening) since pre-pandemic.

Quite an oversight to stop service on Sunday, July 3rd at 10pm when 25,000+ at Scissortail Park were celebrating at Red White and Boom. Hundreds of us were just standing at the park platform dumbfounded that service ended at its normal time. Although I didn't mind walking back to my apartment in Midtown (I needed the steps anyway), it annoyed me that others, some of whom had taken the streetcar for the first time earlier that evening to park and ride, had this experience. Really unfortunate. I hadn't seen the streetcars this packed (Sunday afternoon into early evening) since pre-pandemic.

They used to do the same with the rubber tire trolleys. I remember jumping on one to get back to my apartment in midtown, only to shortly later find out that I was on the "orange line" which I didn't know existed, and was bound for Meridian.

Quite an oversight to stop service on Sunday, July 3rd at 10pm when 25,000+ at Scissortail Park were celebrating at Red White and Boom. Hundreds of us were just standing at the park platform dumbfounded that service ended at its normal time. Although I didn't mind walking back to my apartment in Midtown (I needed the steps anyway), it annoyed me that others, some of whom had taken the streetcar for the first time earlier that evening to park and ride, had this experience. Really unfortunate. I hadn't seen the streetcars this packed (Sunday afternoon into early evening) since pre-pandemic.

embark is giving free days passes to anyone effected as an apology .. https://okcstreetcar.com/2022-red-white-and-boom/

a group of us had taken streetcar from St Anthonys to Red, WHite and Boom as well. they did tell us however when we boarded that service would end at 10pm. so we made a plan and 3 of us after took Lime scooters to go get cars and came back and picked the other up. hopefully they look at that for future events as its a great way to get new riders familiar with the system as well as helps a parking issue.

As long as the pandemic stays somewhat under control, you'll see lots more events and concerts at Scissortail.

So, at least they are aware of the issue and will likely make adjustments.

Holt posted that the streetcar recently hit 1 million riders.

Hope they're ok!

trolley problem on steroids

Hope they're ok!

Okay that was really good, dad! :)

Hope they're ok!

I laughed.

Freakonomics podcast on making public transit free.

https://freakonomics.com/podcast/should-public-transit-be-free/

So the streetcar is out of service because a falling crane damaged the tracks?

That goes to show you there is little impact to canceling it during the week. If there were any substantial amount of people that relied on it for transportation, they'd have figured something out.

such a negative tone always on here regarding the streetcar. in other cities things happen where rail is cancelled as part of normal business because, it's on rail which can't be moved.

That isn't a bad thing but what is bad is people continually criticising the streetcar yet failing to recognize that 1) it WOULD be successful if it were free and/or its route went into one or more residential neighborhoods and 2) it would be free if there weren't the 'link' to the bus system also needing to be free (which I totally don't see the connection) therefore 3) not sure why there also isn't a connection on the lack of success of the bus system. Can't have it both ways guys - if the systems need to be linked with regard to fare/operations then they should be linked with regard to performance and quality.

If you say buses are better then let the streetcar be free for now funded by downtown OKC Inc, then we'll see ridership near or above KC (which is/was free) and other systems people on here admire. Streetcar, as it is constructed, is meant to be a last mile option and circulator downtown - such a configuration isn't going to be full of riders all the time and should be free since its only downtown and not region wide like the buses.

I like the Streetcar but I really think the actual route is poorly designed. This bent 8 is painfully slow if you go South to North. Much faster the other way.

They need to split the routes in two and expend them to neighborhood in a more linear configuration.

That goes to show you there is little impact to canceling it during the week. If there were any substantial amount of people that relied on it for transportation, they'd have figured something out.
Precisely why busses were the better option.

Plu, we have/had circular buses downtown for many years, in fact - it was part of the first MAPS. Fail.

I'd say the Streetcar has been a huge success, not necessarily in ridership but you can't deny all of the construction that has and will continue to go up along it's route. Is the route the best? No. But that ship has sailed and the public had a chance (I think) to voice concern and none was made (or paid attention to). moving on, we can make the route more linear through the CBD creating backbone straight segments AND we can extend into the neighborhoods and to other districts. We just need people to stop with the nonsense and put good $$ to use to add rails where they're needed. Removing the fair would help exponentially, and 'again' don't give me that "but the buses should also be free" crap because the buses go near your house/suburban venue, streetcar does not unless it's downtown.

Precisely why busses were the better option.

Streetcars are great when they’re designed well. Despite tons of advocacy for a more simple route, OKC leaders didn’t listen. It’s a god awful route. I can out walk the streetcar half the time. That doesn’t mean buses are better. OKC just chose an awful route.

Streetcars are great when they’re designed well. Despite tons of advocacy for a more simple route, OKC leaders didn’t listen. It’s a god awful route. I can out walk the streetcar half the time. That doesn’t mean buses are better. OKC just chose an awful route.
An absolutely lousy route, that favored the local developers. No routes outside of ‘white’ downtown, not even the proposed route to the OU medical complex, too close to the black east side. And the developers don’t pay a tax for this tool. In Kansas City, real estate along the route pays a tax for their trolley, as they should, for the value increases.

I'm not sure if this is the best thread to mention this but I came across this today and found it to be very interesting.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/09/trackless-trams-help-revitalize-suburbs?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social_video&utm_term=1_1&utm_content=27383_China_trackless_trams&utm_campaign=social_video_2022

Nothing is wrong with the routes, they were designed to target Midtown, Automobile Alley, City Center & Bricktown. Riders need
to be well acquainted with the routes--especially with the color codes and the colors of the streetcars. That's why it should be
free until riders become familiar with the inner working and connectivity of the streetcar.

https://okcstreetcar.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/PadMap_General-Website_B-1280x1656.png

The streetcar is an inner core loop form of transit; unless you make it free (more of an investment) or very inexpensive and allow the ridership and development to revolve around the existing routes; then it's going to take longer to establish and accomplish what it was designed to do.

Have observed that the ridership has pick up some--not as empty as the heat has evolved. The success of the streetcar depends
on ridership. Make fares free for one year, give it time to establish itself. Then re-evaluate its effectiveness and then charge a nominal fee/fare as ridership gains interest.

Our downtown with the underground concourse doesn't allow for a lot of above ground street traffic or store fronts.

You can talk about store fronts; however if your street traffic is below ground, storefront are useless.

Really. It takes far too long to get north and south for it to be transportation, that allows you to get across town in a timely fashion. It quicker just to walk So the blue line is just for the entertainment - brick town to the gardens
The red line really is just a tourist ride to show you around the central business core. Much like the canal. The boats only serve as a tour guide to the city.

So in my opinion the streetcar does not provide transportation for all the workers in downtown Oklahoma City

Really. It takes far too long to get north and south for it to be transportation, that allows you to get across town in a timely fashion. It quicker just to walk So the blue line is just for the entertainment - brick town to the gardens
The red line really is just a tourist ride to show you around the central business core. Much like the canal. The boats only serve as a tour guide to the city.

So in my opinion the streetcar does not provide transportation for all the workers in downtown Oklahoma City

Walking for that long isn't really feasible (if you have an alternative) in the horribly hot weather we've been having.

Walking for that long isn't really feasible (if you have an alternative) in the horribly hot weather we've been having.

Heat strokes are on the rise. You make a very good point.

thing is, it's fairly easy to fix the routes, just add in track to elongate the loops. No reason why there should ONLY be a turn on Robinson, make it also go straight down. Same for Sheridan, why turn, go straight down.

I'm not going to argue the aformentioned race issue but it does appear OKC leaders didn't listen regarding the route. Should have had a backbone EW down Sheridan/Grand Ave and N/S down Robinson and Broadway - all the way. Again, in my mind this can be resolved fairly inexpensive, just add in more track. Then, send it to the neighborhoods - voila, now OKC has a viable inner network vs. tourist loops. Too bad city leaders want to keep sending extra Maps $ to the fairgrounds rather than using $10M to fix the downtown routes to create the NS and EW dual track backbones.

thing is, it's fairly easy to fix the routes, just add in track to elongate the loops. No reason why there should ONLY be a turn on Robinson, make it also go straight down. Same for Sheridan, why turn, go straight down.

I'm not going to argue the aformentioned race issue but it does appear OKC leaders didn't listen regarding the route. Should have had a backbone EW down Sheridan/Grand Ave and N/S down Robinson and Broadway - all the way. Again, in my mind this can be resolved fairly inexpensive, just add in more track. Then, send it to the neighborhoods - voila, now OKC has a viable inner network vs. tourist loops. Too bad city leaders want to keep sending extra Maps $ to the fairgrounds rather than using $10M to fix the downtown routes to create the NS and EW dual track backbones.


OKC Fairgrounds August Economic Impact Report--Wednesday, September 14, 2022: https://okcfairgrounds.com/blog/post/okc-fairgrounds-august-economic-impact-report

The horse shows & events are worth the investment.

The routes were designed to target Midtown, Automobile Alley, City Center & Bricktown. You mentioned $10 million to fix the downtown routes to create the NS and EW dual track backbones.

IIRC OKC built its streetcar system at a cost of $135 million: https://journalrecord.com/2019/04/09/okc-streetcar-project-officially-complete/

Interesting, not quite following your logic--care to give us an example of how this NS/EW dual track backbones work.

I really like the KCMO streetcar. When I lived in Westport on Main, I would jump on a bus and transfer at Union Station / Crown Center to the Streetcar. I would take it most weekends to get to the Farmer's Market at the River Market - and it was always packed.

As mentioned, the KC Streetcar is free to ride. I think they originally planned on it being free for a while then changing to a paid model, but everyone liked that it was free so we kept it that way.

And you are right about the taxes in the KC Streetcar corridor. Not too long before I left, we had a vote for taxes to support the Main Street extension, extending the KC Streetcar from Union Station to UMKC, essentially connecting the University, the Plaza District (higher end shopping area), Nelson Atkins - amazing Museum and also free, Westport, Union Station, P&L, and the River Market. The taxes vote was only open to people that would be directly affected by it. Essentially, the Special Assessment Zone extended from the proposed route to roughly 4-5 blocks on either side (with certain exceptions, cohesive economic communities were included if they extended further and major traffic thoroughfares also acted as boundaries that brought the zone closer than 4-5 blocks). It was like a 1% sales tax increase and about a 0.6% property tax increase for properties within 0.3 miles of the route. The taxes passed with a 3-to-1 margin. I voted for it.

I really like the KCMO streetcar. When I lived in Westport on Main, I would jump on a bus and transfer at Union Station / Crown Center to the Streetcar. I would take it most weekends to get to the Farmer's Market at the River Market - and it was always packed.

As mentioned, the KC Streetcar is free to ride. I think they originally planned on it being free for a while then changing to a paid model, but everyone liked that it was free so we kept it that way.

And you are right about the taxes in the KC Streetcar corridor. Not too long before I left, we had a vote for taxes to support the Main Street extension, extending the KC Streetcar from Union Station to UMKC, essentially connecting the University, the Plaza District (higher end shopping area), Nelson Atkins - amazing Museum and also free, Westport, Union Station, P&L, and the River Market. The taxes vote was only open to people that would be directly affected by it. Essentially, the Special Assessment Zone extended from the proposed route to roughly 4-5 blocks on either side (with certain exceptions, cohesive economic communities were included if they extended further and major traffic thoroughfares also acted as boundaries that brought the zone closer than 4-5 blocks). It was like a 1% sales tax increase and about a 0.6% property tax increase for properties within 0.3 miles of the route. The taxes passed with a 3-to-1 margin. I voted for it.

And good for you, I’ve heard that planned real estate along the streetcar is sold out before it’s built. I think that’s it’s fair, for the increase in value along the line to be taxed.

The first thing I’d do for the streetcar, is build four passing sidings at four stops, and run cars in both directions. I would eliminate the downtown loop going thru bricktown, with new track running on west on Sheridan. People could change streetcars at the Devon, or Colcord building. How big city would that be?

Wouldn't look for any solutions for the streetcar or any road changes until a site is selected for the new downtown arena. Should know a little more when the council meets on October 4 to begin preliminary talks to begin plans on a new arena.

Agree that the most logical and economical site for the city will be the 4 square block old Myriad-Cox Convention Center site. Predict this project is 4-5 years from breaking ground.

Even on a cold Free Friday night with a Thunder game no one was riding this thing. I'm torn on it. I like to use it but I see why others don't. I went to the game and parked west of the Myriad gardens. I got there early so I could get a spot next to the street car stop hop on and ride it to the arena. Got there 5:05ish and I was the only one parked over there. Could not believe no one else would think of this. Park next to a street car stop and just ride it to the arena. Anyway i had just missed the bricktown loop next car said 12 minutes. OK cool that works better for me anyway since gates don't open until 5:30 and I was just going to eat at the arena. Here where probably no one rides the thing. They actually only had one bricktown car going (using the embark app to track) and I'm not sure how long it's supposed to take but it was 30 minutes before the car got back to the Myriad gardens stop. So it was 5:35 when I got on it and than it seemed quicker this time but still took about 15 minutes to get to the arena. I was thinking to myself this is probably why no one rides this thing. It's probably quicker to walk a lot of places. After the game it was probably 1/2 full at best. Why don't more people think about using it to take to games? It's $20 to park at the arena it's free to park next to a street car stop but takes forever. Will this thing ever catch on. Would making travel times make more people use it?

A lot of barriers of entry. The route is confusing, people don't know that you can basically ride it for "free", a lot of people in OKC just aren't familiar with any form of public transportation.

I think there is at least 3 cars running at all times. 2 main loop and 1 Bricktown. They should probably run a second Bricktown car during Thunder games.

We need a mainline route that everyone is familiar with, then branch off from that. Kansas City got it right. I think securing votes for funding streetcar expansion is going to be incredibly hard now.

One push made by the streetcar advocates using IIRC the Portland and/or the Seattle SLUT models were used in that push
that it would spur development along the routes.

As Anonymous pointed out, people aren't familiar with the streetcar routes and when it is free.

You don't have to have a circular route like Kansas City. Again, IMO you need to make the streetcar free for one full year, allow ridership to build and allow patrons to become familiar with routes; then after collecting data for 12 months--decide if you need to charge a fare.

Is it getting used much during the day? During Conventions? Seems like there could be better marketing. Find a parking lot the city could promote really close to street car stop and say park here for free for Thunder game, buy a street car pass. Show it at the game for a free hot dog or something? Water, pop box of candy. Maybe? Just thinking out loud.

The route sucks. For me, that’s been the biggest issue and why I can’t use it, despite really wanting to regularly.

Oklahoma City is a city that really might as well be starting from scratch when it comes to public transportation. It wasn’t that long ago that we were celebrating the arrival of bus service on Sunday’s and service running after the streetlights came on. I want to be optimistic because I love taking public transportation, especially rail form, but it’s hard to maintain that optimism when confronted with the reality that comes with over half-a-century worth of general neglect for public transportation systems here and across North America.

I’m just now entering my late 20’s so I have a decent chance of seeing the culture change in my lifetime and given where the general interest for all things public transportation has been over the years, it’s hard not to feel like it’s a tremendous success to even have tracks in the ground or have people willingly ride it to help support growth. Still, the vision has to go far beyond that and I’m sure these conversations are happening quite a lot behind the scenes, but it certainly is easy to get frustrated and lose patience given how staggering the task is right now.

There will be a BRT stop not far from my house, so once that’s up and running I plan on using that to go basically anywhere I need to on NW Expy, Classen, Uptown/Downtown and everywhere in between despite having a car and driving being far more convenient, and that includes relying on the streetcar once I get to that part of the city. I hope it all works in the long run but yeah, you really can’t help but feel it’s going to be a very uphill battle before things really get into a groove.