I believe that safety protocol requires the operator to keep all passengers on board until emergency personnel verify that the area is clear. I participated in the March 29 SIMULATED truck v. streetcar collision + HAZMAT spill, and that was the protocol. After the truck T-boned the streetcar, the operator kept all doors closed and 911 was called. OCFD was first on the scene, and they identified that an unknown chemical had spilled from the truck. A perimeter was established and protected personnel & sensors were brought in. Injured victims - including the truck driver - were assessed and evacuated through a sterile corridor uphill/upwind to triage as the chemical spill was contained & neutralized.

If you simply open the doors, you may put passengers into greater danger.

Oh noes, someone might smell anti-freeze. Seriously, this is taking safety theater too far. If the SC can't move for more than a few minutes, it should let people off. All those people are perfectly capable of deciding for themselves when to get out of any other form of transportation. It is one big step down, in the same spot an Uber would drop you off in. It is a little more justified in a real accident, but in a "car is on the rails" event it is beyond ridiculous.

At the end of the day, federal and state gas taxes need to increase and get pegged to CPI. A reasonable chunk of this needs to then get earmarked for public transit. The real way public transit pays for itself is by removing cars from roads and thus decreasing the maintenance and capital costs for roads. Higher gas prices also makes people more likely to choose public transit or biking.

Really, gas tax needs to be changed to a formula based on miles driven and weight of vehicle. Inflation and fuel efficiency has both massively undermined the gas tax's ability to fund infrastructure.

I'm also all for progressive fares on public transit. If you are riding the subway to your 150K/yr job you can afford a $5 fare, but the person going to the same building to clean the toilets should get a break on that, maybe a $1. Allowing poorer people to find and keep jobs is good for everyone in the city. Allowing poorer people to give up the expense of a car would also be a big quality of life improvement.

I just spent a week in Busan, Korea and their public transit was amazing, made me very jealous. Of course they have much higher density than OKC.

At the end of the day, federal and state gas taxes need to increase and get pegged to CPI. A reasonable chunk of this needs to then get earmarked for public transit. The real way public transit pays for itself is by removing cars from roads and thus decreasing the maintenance and capital costs for roads. Higher gas prices also makes people more likely to choose public transit or biking.

Really, gas tax needs to be changed to a formula based on miles driven and weight of vehicle. Inflation and fuel efficiency has both massively undermined the gas tax's ability to fund infrastructure.

I'm also all for progressive fares on public transit. If you are riding the subway to your 150K/yr job you can afford a $5 fare, but the person going to the same building to clean the toilets should get a break on that, maybe a $1. Allowing poorer people to find and keep jobs is good for everyone in the city. Allowing poorer people to give up the expense of a car would also be a big quality of life improvement.

I just spent a week in Busan, Korea and their public transit was amazing, made me very jealous. Of course they have much higher density than OKC.

cars cause litte to no damage to roads ....

almost all road damage and ware is caused by big trucks and environmental factors ..

cars cause litte to no damage to roads ....

almost all road damage and ware is caused by big trucks and environmental factors ..

And they weigh more than cars, no? If you make the tax based on the weight of the vehicle you take that into account.

The flip side, the majority of road construction is done to accommodate cars. And once they are built entropy starts doing its damage. Many roads are replaced to accommodate more cars long before they need major maintenance.

From https://twitter.com/davidfholt/status/1118542308562096128


As expected, @OKCStreetcar (https://twitter.com/OKCStreetcar) ridership spiked dramatically in March as temps rose & riders got used to the fare system. From Feb to March, ridership jumped 62%. Over 33,000 riders used the Streetcar in March. April is already looking even better. Keep enjoying the Streetcar, OKC!

Love that news!

From https://twitter.com/davidfholt/status/1118542308562096128

Good to see it increased.

Does anyone know:

1. Total length of route (5.2?)
2. Amount of total route trips made per day?
2A. Since the cars are on 2 routes how many run first route (and length) and how many run 2nd (and length)?

I think we have 5 cars running daily (of 7, with 2 kept in barn for routine maintenance). So how many total trips are made per day? And not all make a full trip so would need broken down into 2 and 2A miles.

What I’d like to do is figure out how many passengers per mile ran. If the daily miles total is 200 that would be 6,000 miles driven per month. Then take 33k passengers and get 5.5 passengers per mile average.

Not sure if anyone has it but wanted to ask.

Note: This doesn’t mean each passenger went a mile or 5 miles, its just away to convert for comparisons. Thats how most of mass transit systems are compared.

From https://twitter.com/davidfholt/status/1118542308562096128

Not unexpected news, but it was all doom and gloom on the news outlet FB pages after the February ridership numbers showed a 50% decrease from January. The comments were so ridiculous.

I was curious to see how KC's streetcar ridership does in the winter months. No surprise, January and February are its lowest months: http://kcstreetcar.org/ridership/

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I think Salt Lake City averages about 40,000 per month on theirs. So ours is comparable, it seems.

Here’s a link to a list of all light rail and streetcar riderships. They call it Daily boardings per mile, its the same thing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_light_rail_systems_by_riders hip

I think Salt Lake City averages about 40,000 per month on theirs. So ours is comparable, it seems.

That's interesting. Salt Lake City has a commuter rail that goes into downtown, but IMHO OKC's core is superior to SLC.

no doubt downtown OKC is far superior to Salt Lake, but SLC has suburbs and exurbs in a linear line N-S, which sets up Commuter Rail a little better than the more circular in shape OKC metro area with our need for E-W and possibly NW and SW to downtown. ....

well when you have a mountain range on one side and a lake on the other...

The streetcar has the potential to serve more passengers in the midtown-downtown-bricktown areas once it gets established--it gives the appearance of being a tier above bus transit. Not to place any less emphasis on bus transit that provides an invaluable service for riders who depend on bus transportation.

Both transit modes will enhance Oklahoma City's future.

Out of curiosity, do the (I hate this word for this) competing modes of public transit have an effect on the potential for other modes. For example, folks keep talking about passenger rail between Edmond and OK. There's already a bus line that runs a dozen times a day, so personally I find it hard to push for rail service to be added on. Are people concerned that the success of one form of transit might limit the growth/success of another form?

Out of curiosity, do the (I hate this word for this) competing modes of public transit have an effect on the potential for other modes. For example, folks keep talking about passenger rail between Edmond and OK. There's already a bus line that runs a dozen times a day, so personally I find it hard to push for rail service to be added on. Are people concerned that the success of one form of transit might limit the growth/success of another form?

only if they leave it as is... if the adjust and let them grow into a system that all works together, i think it encourages growth among all the modes of transit.

I think the transit modes in OKC will be competing as long as we keep using phrases like

1) 'the bus system is for the "working poor" '

and the just mentioned (sorry Larry)

2) 'the streetcar is seen as a tier above bus transit'

While these theories may be true in OKC, this is not the case in other areas with established transit systems. For example, in the Seattle area we now have Streetcar, local and Commuter bus, Commuter Rail, and light rail - you are not considered elite if you ride the commuter rail or poor if you ride the local bus; transit is ridden based on the mode available to where you are going/coming from. So a person may take commuter bus the entire way (like my wife does) or someone else may need to take multiple modes - Modes feed each other not compete,

and they will compete as long as OKC continues to have them as separate rather than the streetcar being another mode of OKC's transit network.

Embark has to date issued 620 annual passes and 18,600 day passes for the streetcar to businesses along the streetcar route. Given that annual passes for the streetcar sell for $384 and day passes for $3, the dollar value of the passes to these businesses alone is $238,080 + $55,800 = $293,880. Coupled with the roughly $400,000/year approved by COPTA last month to pay off-duty police officers for "security" on the streetcar, the City has allocated roughly an additional $700,000 to the roughly $3 million operating costs for the streetcar.

OKC has the largest discrepancy in level of service between its bus system and its streetcar system (frequency, hours of operation, fares, quality of shelters, security etc..) in the entire country. Both of the expenditures pour additional fuel on a raging fire of inequity.

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I think the transit modes in OKC will be competing as long as we keep using phrases like

1) 'the bus system is for the "working poor" '

and the just mentioned (sorry Larry)

2) 'the streetcar is seen as a tier above bus transit'

While these theories may be true in OKC, this is not the case in other areas with established transit systems. For example, in the Seattle area we now have Streetcar, local and Commuter bus, Commuter Rail, and light rail - you are not considered elite if you ride the commuter rail or poor if you ride the local bus; transit is ridden based on the mode available to where you are going/coming from. So a person may take commuter bus the entire way (like my wife does) or someone else may need to take multiple modes - Modes feed each other not compete,

and they will compete as long as OKC continues to have them as separate rather than the streetcar being another mode of OKC's transit network.

No need to be 'sorry' I know exactly what you meant. :D Same reason you brought up Seattle's contrast in transit to that of OKC's. It's all good my bro, I'll proudly wear those ruby slippers because the city in which I live & love is not a 'Utopia' by any means. :wink:

Just telling you what the 'feel' is around here IMO; not that there's any intention to degrade any mode of transportation any more than the natural thing when we purchase new buses vs. old buses or with our own vehicles or our neighbors old run down jalopies--we naturally compare.

What will the new Sana Fe Intermodal Transit hub include (?):


Greyhound Bus Station: 1948 E Reno Ave
Oklahoma City 'city bus' transit center: 420 NW 5th Street
Streetcar transit

Since the 'City Bus' transit center is so close to Santa Fe Intermodal Transit Hub--will it be closed. Oh, and there's the Greyhound Buses; will they bring it :Smiley077 back to the city. HotRod, Seattle's Greyhound & Jefferson lines--you guys have two.

Anyone in-the-know please feel free to discuss the SFITH.

I understand there was a pretty serious bicycle accident this week in which a rider got his bike tire in the streetcar rail and had a very bad fall. Broken leg, dislocated hip, etc. Admitted to Bone & Joint. Very unfortunate deal.

I understand there was a pretty serious bicycle accident this week in which a rider got his bike tire in the streetcar rail and had a very bad fall. Broken leg, dislocated hip, etc. Admitted to Bone & Joint. Very unfortunate deal.

I work with some people that are very big bikers and even lobby at the city and state level for biking improvements. They were pretty vocal to me about not liking the streetcars when they started construction, because of this very thing. Normally they are big supporters of public transit and helped get official carpools started at work. I haven't asked them what their thoughts are now that it is opened, but I am sure they are still concerned about the tracks, especially since they are in the RH lane that bikes tend to ride in.

I wonder how this is avoided as an issue in Seattle that has tons of bike commuters.

I work with some people that are very big bikers and even lobby at the city and state level for biking improvements. They were pretty vocal to me about not liking the streetcars when they started construction, because of this very thing. Normally they are big supporters of public transit and helped get official carpools started at work. I haven't asked them what their thoughts are now that it is opened, but I am sure they are still concerned about the tracks, especially since they are in the RH lane that bikes tend to ride in.

I wonder how this is avoided as an issue in Seattle that has tons of bike commuters.

we have dedicated bike lanes with their own traffic signals, completely separated from traffic in certain streets of the CBD. Perhaps people are a little more used to it here.
https://www.seattle.gov/Images/Departments/SDOT/BikeProgram/after.jpg

we have dedicated bike lanes with their own traffic signals, completely separated from traffic in certain streets of the CBD. Perhaps people are a little more used to it here.
https://www.seattle.gov/Images/Departments/SDOT/BikeProgram/after.jpg

Do the bike lanes never cross the streetcar tracks? Or do they had gap fillers where the bike paths cross?

they never cross. there's specific streets for streetcars and others for bike lanes. :)

downtown OKC is a little different (more compact) than Seattle but we have 2nd Avenue with "grade" separated bike lanes the full length (NW-SE) of the CBD. The pic I shared is showing 2nd Ave bike lanes (note the grade separation median from auto traffic). I believe there is also a bike lane that runs alone Pine Street for the SW-NE direction. Bikes can share on other streets throughout the cbd but there's not dedicated that I can remember. Think of the bike lanes as sort of bike freeways or bike rapid transit.

Streetcar runs along Westlake Ave (the famous S.L.U.T) starting at 5th Avenue running out to the north and the new streetcar route (im not sure if it has a name) runs along Jackson Street (both are on the opposite sides of the CBD). We don't have any streetcars run through the CBD.

I don't know if OKC could follow the lead of Seattle given the config of you guy's CBD and how the Streetcar route is laid out , Portland (oh goodness - hard to say that city's name right now) might be a better example as they're more compact but Im not too familiar with their biking situation. Nevertheless I would strongly argue that OKC should make dedicated grade separated bike lanes in SOME sort of pattern and maybe restrict biking along the streetcar route tracks altogether. ...

................

For those interested on with how transit is configured in Seattle - we reserve 3rd Avenue as the main transit street for King County Metro (which is closed to auto traffic during most of the day) and Sound Transit commuter bus runs more disbursed along 2nd Ave, 4th and 5th Ave. We used to have the Seattle bus tunnel instead of 3rd but now that is exclusively for light rail. There are some Trolley buses that go along 1st Ave and 3rd Ave. The original Monorail runs from Westlake in the CBD outward down 5th Ave N to the Space Needle. Commuter Rail comes into King Street train station which is near Jackson.

Seattle has 4 underground stations, with Westlake being the main one. Seattle runs longitudinally along 1st - 5th Aves basically, 2nd, 4th, and 5th are one way and again 3rd is sort of a transit 'mall'.

We took bike separation pretty seriously in the design. A great example of this is on 4th street where the bike lane also goes around the Federal Center streetcar stop. The crossings are encouraged 90-degree angles and EMBARK pursued a fairly strenuous public education campaign specifically about bikes. The bicycle accident is terrible news though.

Regarding the inequity between the buses and streetcars, I couldn't agree with Councilman Shadid more. Our former City Manager had a great deal to do with major bus improvements not being included in MAPS 3.

I think this time you will see a significant MAPS investment in the bus system. The streetcar system really should be used as the baseline for how we should go forward with the transit system overall. And I say baseline because I think we can do better than the BRASCO shelters we are using, better urban design at stops, and then bus technology itself.

Just simply installing shelters at all existing stops is only approximately a $15 million investment. It shouldn't even be questioned.

snip.

Thank you for the info. I spent a lot of time walking Seattle's downtown a few years ago over four weeks, but I haven't biked it or seen the streetcars. I personally always hold Seattle as the ideal when it comes to walking, though. And I know it is a mecca of Bike commuting.

When are the yellow nets coming down? This seems to be very bootleg having them up this long.

I heard the components were in fabrication and we still have another month or two until delivery and installation.

When are the yellow nets coming down? This seems to be very bootleg having them up this long.

I'm lost. What is this talking about?

I'm lost. What is this talking about?

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There's yellow plastic netting around the railing at all stops due to a design flaw that was deemed unsafe for children, so a mesh metal piece will be attached to the railing to improve that.

There's yellow plastic netting around the railing at all stops due to a design flaw that was deemed unsafe for children, so a mesh metal piece will be attached to the railing to improve that.

that "design flaw" is laughable .... the kids are free to fall in the street with 0 railing but somehow the high rail on that side (the origional design) was unsafe and then the second design high and low rail was also deemed "unsafe" so now a middle rail is getting added ... it is a little crazy

agree, but also don't mind the improvement, no harm to it really.

It's not a "design flaw" they are added the mesh and will be adding the additional metal railing in order to comply with a certain federal regulation. This regulation I was told, is not mandatory but they decided to do it anyway just to stay ahead of the game.

I mean, that kind of seems like almost the definition of design flaw to me, but I'm definitely short on info here.

It isn't necessary but they decided to do it anyway. I don't know why it wasn't added in the first place.

Thank you for the info. I spent a lot of time walking Seattle's downtown a few years ago over four weeks, but I haven't biked it or seen the streetcars. I personally always hold Seattle as the ideal when it comes to walking, though. And I know it is a mecca of Bike commuting.

the SLUT (south lake union trolley) has been around for at least 3 years now, the new streetcar on the other side of CBD is only a year old. The bike lanes are a little more than a year old - so yes Seattle has made some quick progress.

And yes, it is a good walking downtown; you'd be shocked to know that this is relatively recent (basically since the late 1990s, then the big push you experienced in the mid-2010s).

It isn't necessary but they decided to do it anyway. I don't know why it wasn't added in the first place.

IIRC, think Jeff covered it a few pages ago... but it was an ODOT Railroad Division thing. They refused to give approval to operate the system because of their interpretation of the 4" maximum bar spacing on a railing along a walkway that has a more than 18" vertical drop. The city's original intent was this was a handrail, not a fall-prevention railing. That's my understanding, at least.

IIRC, think Jeff covered it a few pages ago... but it was an ODOT Railroad Division thing. They refused to give approval to operate the system because of their interpretation of the 4" maximum bar spacing on a railing that has a more than 18" vertical drop. The city's original intent was this was a handrail, not a fall-prevention railing. That's my understanding, at least.

yep

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/streetcar050119.jpg

I'm watching CNBC this morning and the primary topic is Uber's IPO. Listening to the Uber CEO speak of the future, about autonomous, scooters, bikes , basically, is how he see's people traversing short distances. I don't think he's concerned with streetcars.

When OKC Streetcar idea was hatched was well over 10 years ago. It took that long before it became reality. And then look at all the changes in that time and streetcar is out dated, if it was ever anything more than a novelty.

And trying to project 10 or 20 years ahead is futile. Change will come fast and furious. Ya gotta be able to move faster than 10 plus year time lines.

I'm watching CNBC this morning and the primary topic is Uber's IPO. Listening to the Uber CEO speak of the future, about autonomous, scooters, bikes , basically, is how he see's people traversing short distances. I don't think he's concerned with streetcars.

When OKC Streetcar idea was hatched was well over 10 years ago. It took that long before it became reality. And then look at all the changes in that time and streetcar is out dated, if it was ever anything more than a novelty.

And trying to project 10 or 20 years ahead is futile. Change will come fast and furious. Ya gotta be able to move faster than 10 plus year time lines.

I don't see why he would be concerned. Any kind of culture that encourages people to forgo personal car use is good for Uber.

The CEO of Uber doing a press junket about his IPO is definitely a good place to get unbiased views of other transportation methods.

The CEO of Uber doing a press junket about his IPO is definitely a good place to get unbiased views of other transportation methods.

Now, that is funny !

Now, that is funny !


Hilarious

The CEO of Uber doing a press junket about his IPO is definitely a good place to get unbiased views of other transportation methods.

kind of was my thought to... like maybe instead of is views of transportation in the future, he can talk about his views of how to actually make his company turn a profit in the future. lol... of course he is going to talk about a grand vision of the future where Uber controls public transit... it's the only hope he has

kind of was my thought to... like maybe instead of is views of transportation in the future, he can talk about his views of how to actually make his company turn a profit in the future. lol... of course he is going to talk about a grand vision of the future where Uber controls public transit... it's the only hope he has

They will turn a massive profit when they no longer have drivers and they are operating an autonomous fleet with near universal brand recognition.

I think Uber actually helps the streetcar. You could take an Uber to get downtown, then use the streetcar to move throughout the area. If you are only going to one destination, Uber is fine. But the streetcar gives you enhanced mobility once you are there.

It doesn't take much imagination to see how Uber and others like them, could be a threat to all forms of public transportation..........

OKC bought yesterday's streetcar ........... here's the future ..... and its not hard to envision one of these picking up multiple people at the doorstep and delivering them. Yes, there's still many problems, but no one in 2008 even thought of an Uber or an autonomous vehicle

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/01/08/self-driving-cars-rolled-out-at-consumer-electronic-show.html

It doesn't take much imagination to see how Uber and others like them, could be a threat to all forms of public transportation..........

OKC bought yesterday's streetcar ........... here's the future ..... and its not hard to envision one of these picking up multiple people at the doorstep and delivering them. Yes, there's still many problems, but no one in 2008 even thought of an Uber or an autonomous vehicle

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/01/08/self-driving-cars-rolled-out-at-consumer-electronic-show.html

not quite... Autonomous vehicles have been talked about in transportation circles and by some in the auto industry since the late 80's... and we are still a lot further from fully autonomous vehicles then i think most people realize... mostly due to legal liability that will hamper them being massively available to the public without very strict legal waivers.

yeah, yeah, yeah .......... I hear all the .................. " its a long way off " and " too many problems " ...........but again, I don't think I'd make a multiple hundred million dollar bet against the technology


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnFvPCDj6UI

for those interested... Intelligence Squared recently did a debate on driver less cars. it has lots of good information both for and against.

https://www.intelligencesquaredus.org/debates/all-hail-driverless-car

yeah, yeah, yeah .......... I hear all the .................. " its a long way off " and " too many problems " ...........but again, I don't think I'd make a multiple hundred million dollar bet against the technology


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnFvPCDj6UI

a video full of concepts and CGI.... i didn't see a single real production vehicle in that entire video.

yeah, yeah, yeah .......... I hear all the .................. " its a long way off " and " too many problems " ...........but again, I don't think I'd make a multiple hundred million dollar bet against the technology



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2iRDYnzwtk

here is one from GM from 1956 about driverless cars. and talking about how the future will be and their concepts...

Sorry man, what happened in 1956 is irrelevant to today. And while you wanna bet hundreds of millions against the technology, there's billions and billions being invested on the other side of your bet.

That wasn't happening in 1956.

a video full of concepts and CGI.... i didn't see a single real production vehicle in that entire video.

The CNBC vid was done inside the vehicle.

I don't see UBER in competition with the street car. Autonomous cars are also not in competition with the street cars. They compete with taxis for sure. Folks who would choose an UBER over taking a bus, wouldn't have likely taken a bus before UBER. They would have called a taxi. I use both UBER and the street car, as well as the bus system (especially in Edmond). Regular schedules, and the ability to hop off and on as I get around town can't be replicated with any of the current models. Sure, we can get autonomous mass transit, but for something like the downtown street cars, that doesn't make as much sense until the technology gets there.

Sorry man, what happened in 1956 is irrelevant to today. And while you wanna bet hundreds of millions against the technology, there's billions and billions being invested on the other side of your bet.

That wasn't happening in 1956.

i'm not against driver-less cars... and i think the billions spent trying to get to that point has provided many many positive benefits to all forms of transportation with computer assisted driving, and automating some tasks... if you are passionate about computer automation like i am, i really to recommend listening to the intelligence squared debate.

I do see the technology improving constantly, but there are still several things that haven't yet been addressed that are the things that will ultimately keep them from becoming mainstream until they are solved... again, a lot of good information on both sides of the debate in that podcast.

i'm not against driver-less cars... and i think the billions spent trying to get to that point has provided many many positive benefits to all forms of transportation with computer assisted driving, and automating some tasks... if you are passionate about computer automation like i am, i really to recommend listening to the intelligence squared debate.

I do see the technology improving constantly, but there are still several things that haven't yet been addressed that are the things that will ultimately keep them from becoming mainstream until they are solved... again, a lot of good information on both sides of the debate in that podcast.

Ten years ago that debate did not exist.

And you , nor I , can envision what will exist 10 years from now.

I would not invest a penny in any traditional form of public transportation, too many disruptive technologies.