I guess that I missed that one...good news...Midwest City will be considering it soon...little chance it won't be approved.

You don't read the Del City Council Agenda every week?! :p

Oklahoma City panel recommends approval of $23M streetcar contract | NewsOK.com (http://m.newsok.com/oklahoma-city-panel-recommends-approval-of-23m-streetcar-contract/article/5448969)

$23 million streetcar purchasing contract approved today at Council 7 to 1. Salyer Absent. Greiner the dissenting vote.

We're moving forward folks!

Awesome! It definitely feels like we're committed now. I've been just a little worried this whole process that opinions like Greiner's would eventually win out and can the project, but as he said in the council meeting today once we have hardware on contract it's a much different question to stop it.

Well, what this does is commits OKC for 30 days. The winning bidder, INEKON, has to resolve some minor issues with how to transact the money exchanges with their bank, register with Bidsync, bonding paperwork, and letters of credit. Typical stuff that comes with winning an award.

I suspect if they want their $23 million, they will get these paperwork issues resolved in the next 30 days and the agreement will be formally consummated transactionally.

Excellent news to wake up to!

So do the streetcars for our city get built, or do they already exist?

So do the streetcars for our city get built, or do they already exist?

Built in the Czech Republic and shipped here. They are not built yet.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe they will be built to order.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe they will be built to order.

You are correct.

Just curious, why is that? Is there simply not an "off the shelf" option? Or are there specific needs that vary that widely between cities? Or will we say "just give us what you gave Portland (or whever)?

Just curious, why is that? Is there simply not an "off the shelf" option? Or are there specific needs that vary that widely between cities? Or will we say "just give us what you gave Portland (or whever)?

Inekon Trams, Streetcars, LRT - Ligt Rail Transit. Inekon Low Floor Trams are in the services in several cities of USA. On this Web page you can see and follow the manufacturing process. (http://www.inekon-trams.com/manufacturing_trams_for_usa.html)

Link shows how they are constructed and differences between export and domestic cars.

Just curious, why is that? Is there simply not an "off the shelf" option? Or are there specific needs that vary that widely between cities? Or will we say "just give us what you gave Portland (or whever)?

Streetcars are expensive long lead time items, thus you don't really need to have a fleet of them sitting around in a shed waiting to be bought "off the shelf".

Cities don't wake up one day and decide they need to place a streetcar order for next week delivery. They know months to years ahead of time when they will need them.

I don't think he meant literally "off the shelf" so much as standardized configuration.

^^^

We are apparently getting a combination of the Seattle and Washington D.C. cars. The body of the car will be like the Seattle car and the "truck" like Washington D.C.'s. That has to do with curb configuration and floor height, IIRC. Heating and cooling has to be adapted for our weather and the interior seat configuration can be adjusted as well. So you can consider it a "semi-custom" car.

That's useful info, thank you.

JerseyBoss your link was very informative as well, thanks.

Gaining ground: Oklahoma City Council approves $23M contract for streetcars
By: Brian Brus The Journal Record September 29, 2015

OKLAHOMA CITY – The City Council approved a $23 million contract for downtown streetcars from a Czech Republic manufacturer under the MAPS 3 projects Tuesday.

Rob Edgcumbe of Jacobs Engineering Group, which is heading the project for the city, said Inekon trams are the best value for Oklahoma City’s needs even though they’ll be shipped from overseas. The vehicles will be similar to streetcars now used in Seattle.

Four years ago, city residents voted in favor of a temporary penny sales tax to provide $777 million for a series of economic development and infrastructure improvement projects, including $123 million allocated for the streetcar system. Those MAPS 3 projects include a new downtown convention center, central park and rail-based streetcar system to service the inner city and adjacent areas.

The streetcar plan was subsequently shaped by public feedback to weigh factors such as maximizing economic development potential and integration with the city’s existing transportation network. Factors of consideration included the city’s relatively flat terrain, high summer temperatures, platforms and projected ridership numbers. Edgcumbe said specifications now include the ability of the streetcar to run on or off an electric wire.

Oklahoma City-based Jacobs have representatives said that even though businesses abutting the route would be the most obvious beneficiaries of streetcar access, studies from other cities show economic development in nearby blocks as well.

The request for proposals was issued a year ago to purchase a base quantity of five vehicles with an option of up to eight additional modern streetcars and associated goods and serves such as spare parts, training, special tools and maintenance manuals.

As a condition of the contract, Edgcumbe said, Inekon must submit proof of bonds and letters of credit and insurance to the City Council within 30 days. If the company clears that checkpoint, the streetcars will be built and delivered within 24 months.

Councilman Larry McAtee said he had received a letter from a competitor intended to cast doubt on the company’s ability to deliver as promised, citing prior U.S. projects that have fallen behind schedule.

“The vendor is well-established in the marketplace,” Edgcumbe said. “They have had schedule issues with their Seattle project. … But the work they have been doing with Seattle to get their vehicle into service means that we’ll get an off-the-shelf vehicle that has already been debugged.”

Further, Seattle’s requirements for U.S.-manufactured parts slowed down the process, he said. Oklahoma City does not have the same standard, so Inekon should be much quicker.

Councilman Mark Stonecipher voted against the contract for the final time Tuesday, he said, because he still does not think it’s a good project overall.

Councilman Mark Stonecipher voted against the contract for the final time Tuesday, he said, because he still does not think it’s a good project overall.

I thought Greiner voted no...?

Oh whoops, I apparently got my wires crossed when watching the stream yesterday, I thought Greiner was the no vote.

But the work they have been doing with Seattle to get their vehicle into service means that we’ll get an off-the-shelf vehicle that has already been debugged.”

Another wonderful thing the citizens of Seattle have given us.

Greiner was the no vote. He's also the one who wanted to have another election for the street car specifically.

James Greiner thinks the streetcar should be voted on again. Here's why. | News OK (http://newsok.com/article/3904901)

And it should be pointed out that he was voted into office on a platform of completing ALL Maps 3 projects as promised. This has been repeatedly documented.

It is fair to say that it was an important policy position promise that he made to voters that he has reversed on.

In addition, he has stated from the bench that he believes that transit should not be a function of the city government. That transportation should be resolved by the "free market".

We haven't forgotten.

That transportation should be resolved by the "free market".


That is rock stupid.

International coverage- Inekon to supply Oklahoma City Streetcars - Railway Gazette (http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/news/n-america/single-view/view/inekon-to-supply-oklahoma-city-streetcars.html)

That is rock stupid.

Yeah....and not feasible. I'd rather not give private corps eminent domain, government can sometimes abuses it enough.

Not at all advocating market-based public transit in today's climate, but just pointing out that OKC's streetcars were initially private and successful. Though when they tried to raise fares the city stepped in and said no. Of course the downside to those streetcar lines being private was that they could then be bought and shutdown, which is unfortunately what happened. I wonder if the city knew then what it knows now if they would have "nationalized" (municipalized?) those lines, and how the city would look today if we never lost the streetcars and interurbans...

This really applies to railways in general. Interstate rail was essentially abandoned in lieu of automobiles and the Highway establishment under Eisenhower.

Personally, a total gear head here. I love my cherried out Mustang and I enjoy burning up asphalt. I appreciate the great artistic creativity enveloped in auto history that is so well tied to American designers.

With all that stated, had a more balanced approach been applied to post-war transportation, this country might have been able to grow in a more sustainable way without all of the environmental and social challenges. Arguably, leaving such infrastructure in place, or at least the right-of-ways, might place out city, state, and nation in a different development mode.

I don't think he meant literally "off the shelf" so much as standardized configuration.

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.

This really applies to railways in general. Interstate rail was essentially abandoned in lieu of automobiles and the Highway establishment under Eisenhower.

Personally, a total gear head here. I love my cherried out Mustang and I enjoy burning up asphalt. I appreciate the great artistic creativity enveloped in auto history that is so well tied to American designers.

With all that stated, had a more balanced approach been applied to post-war transportation, this country might have been able to grow in a more sustainable way without all of the environmental and social challenges. Arguably, leaving such infrastructure in place, or at least the right-of-ways, might place out city, state, and nation in a different development mode.


Several old timers in management at CSX and Norfolk Southern have told me that the death of passenger rail service was Air Mail. Movement of vast quantities of mail by rail on priority passenger routes essentially subsidized passenger rail.

That is probably true. The shifts have happened many different ways. Standard Oil and General Motors bought up many American Streetcar systems and purposefully dismantled them to force a shift to buses that they produced, fueled, and maintained. I don't think that what happened here in OKC was the result of that conspiracy... but the city did shift immediately to buses.

In the broader context, the US simply allowed these alignments and baseline infrastructure to be sold, dismantled, or converted to other uses in complete contradiction to post-war Europe which we helped rebuild.

Actually, Oklahoma Railway had some bus routes in service as far back as 1940! At that time, Portland marked the western boundary of the city, and I lived not far from NW 23 and Independence. We were served by the Linwood trolley line on NW 19, but also by a bus that ran on NW 23 from the 17th Street Station where passengers transferred to the Belle Isle/Culbertson line.

The buses were not at all popular, but the company found them preferable since changing routes was merely a matter of issuing new maps!

Despite all the "local systems" selling out, big rail has viciously held on to their ROW unless forced to sell it by the Feds to continue service by much smaller local lines. Economics forces them to allow the standard of maintenance on mainline track to fall to freight train levels (59 mph max) rather than passenger levels (78 mph max, normally) , but they jealously guard their real estate, even if totally unused. If the economic environment changed, they would gear up for passenger service in a minute. Dollars are the driver, and the bigs still hold out enough hope that they won't turn loose of their real estate. I hope they're right.

Not at all advocating market-based public transit in today's climate, but just pointing out that OKC's streetcars were initially private and successful. Though when they tried to raise fares the city stepped in and said no. Of course the downside to those streetcar lines being private was that they could then be bought and shutdown, which is unfortunately what happened. I wonder if the city knew then what it knows now if they would have "nationalized" (municipalized?) those lines, and how the city would look today if we never lost the streetcars and interurbans...

The original streetcar in OKC was just a means to sell real-estate. Once the real-estate was sold they had no plan for on-going maintenance of the system. The further out the developments went the more expensive the streetcar maintenance became, which was counter-productive to the idea of moving further out for cheaper land. It eventually collapsed under it's own weight, much like our road network is doing now. The only difference is the streetcar was privately owned so the owners could just go out of business, but the road network is publicly owned so all we can do is raise taxes while it falls apart anyhow. The moral is - be it private streetcars or public roads, sprawl kills. The City needs to keep that in mind while planning mass transits route down NWExp and out to CHK.

Do we know exactly what happened to the local Streetcar lines? Why they were dismantled, who was involved, etc.? Last time this came up I read that General Motors only got their hands on and dismantled a fairly small percentage of the streetcars in the country, and I've wondered since then what happened to the rest.

I think most of the original lines were just paved over. They didn't even bother to take the track up. You can still see them exposed in a few places. The transition from public mass transit to the private automobile occurred for lots of reasons but I personally feel that at the heart of it was the desire to make people trust in the Federal Reserve System. Everything else was just a means to that end.

...I personally feel that at the heart of it was the desire to make people trust in the Federal Reserve System...

Huh?

duplicate

Many were paved over and come to light during major utility projects. Chris Salyer grabbed me one night and showed me on Broadway where some of the asphalt had come up and rails were exposed. There is video somewhere of rails and ballasts being removed from center medians however. So I guess they are gone from the grassy medians.

Many were paved over and come to light during major utility projects. Chris Salyer grabbed me one night and showed me on Broadway where some of the asphalt had come up and rails were exposed. There is video somewhere of rails and ballasts being removed from center medians however. So I guess they are gone from the grassy medians.


...also heard about the original street car lines being paved over.

What would it cost to put those paved over lines back in use if we could find what's left of them; could they serve our current streetcar plan?

What would it cost to put those paved over lines back in use if we could find what's left of them; could they serve our current streetcar plan?After almost 60 years, they're probably eaten through by rust. The last rail trolley in OKC ran in the spring of 1947.

What would it cost to put those paved over lines back in use if we could find what's left of them; could they serve our current streetcar plan?

If we were doing a vintage system, its possible that they might be of some use. However, we are doing a new, modern system. The old rails would promise to be a very bumpy ride. Also, we are using a European rail profile. The rail imbedded in the streets is probably old school girder rail. That means slower speeds.

And as Jim points out, the exterior of the rails is probably significantly rusted and degraded. I have photographed old exposed sections when the underpass was demolished on Walker for the new I-40 Crosstown. Will post them one day. From what I remember, they were intact but in pretty bad shape.

Huh?

It's a long explination.

Laura Eastes did a great job on this piece. A very thorough overview.

Streetcar project is well underway | Oklahoma Gazette (http://okgazette.com/2015/10/08/streetcar-project-is-well-underway/)

I just wanted to say, I've completely changed my view on the wire issue. I went to San Francisco and that city might be the most badass city I've ever been to. In my opinion, it puts LA to shame. I love it and I would love to live there.

It was so amazing how they had those trolleys connected with wires and but they had tires instead of being connected to rail. I have never seen anything like that. The energy and flow was off the charts there. I'm visiting NYC and Chicago this December so I'm excited to see how San Fran compares to either of those cities.

dup

From Steve in today's chat (http://newsok.com/article/5453967):


hurley 2:39 PM
What changes do you see happening with the streetcar now we have a location for the CC?

Steve Lackmeyer 2:40 PM
I talked to David Todd with the city's MAPS 3 office today and he said they are looking at adding a new spur line to address the new site.

Just move the maintenance facility and the problem is solved and we get just that much closer to Capitol Hill. Then sell the current lot and invest in more track.

I just wanted to say, I've completely changed my view on the wire issue. I went to San Francisco and that city might be the most badass city I've ever been to. In my opinion, it puts LA to shame. I love it and I would love to live there.

It was so amazing how they had those trolleys connected with wires and but they had tires instead of being connected to rail. I have never seen anything like that. The energy and flow was off the charts there. I'm visiting NYC and Chicago this December so I'm excited to see how San Fran compares to either of those cities.

Glad you liked SF. Interesting, given how much less car-centric it is compared to LA.

Just move the maintenance facility and the problem is solved and we get just that much closer to Capitol Hill. Then sell the current lot and invest in more track.

The maintenance facility is not moving

Anybody else hear the streetcar story on NPR this morning? Good stuff.

Yeah, it was a good piece. Here is a link-

In D.C. And China, Two Approaches To A Streetcar Unconstrained By Wires : NPR (http://www.npr.org/2015/10/22/450583840/in-d-c-and-china-two-approaches-to-a-streetcar-unconstrained-by-wires)

Our streetcars will be very similar to the Dallas system described. It though the audio about old historic Washing DC streetcars was pretty cool too. No idea that they used essentially a cable car type chase way for underground electrical contact. That would have been extremely advanced for the time. It is shame they took it out like every other city.

Just move the maintenance facility and the problem is solved and we get just that much closer to Capitol Hill. Then sell the current lot and invest in more track.

Don't look for them to move the maintenance facility center at this stage; where would you put it if they were to move close to Capitol Hill. Much of that land toward the river leading into Capitol Hill will include the Central Park.

The puzzle for the Streetcar, Santa Fe Station Intermodal Hub, Maintenance Facility center, Convention center & conference hotel complex are situated where they are the most cost beneficial. There is no Utopia or SimCity solution for coordinating these projects.

Streetcar contract thrown into doubt as manufacturer misses deadline | News OK (http://newsok.com/streetcar-contract-thrown-into-doubt-as-manufacturer-misses-deadline/article/5457043)

Yep. Looks like we have quite a bit to talk about at the next Subcommittee meeting coming up this month.

So I'm assuming this means more delays?

In spite of significant delays, Seattle will likely continue to order cars from INEKON for the next streetcar line here.

I think we may have a pretty broad discussion about it. What kind of supplier voids their multi-million dollar contract over some relatively simple paperwork?

What was needed to consummate the contract on their end was relatively simple. I guess we have to decide whether they are worthy of an extension or to pay more and try to negotiate a contract with the next vendor scored next in line.

This seems to be what INEKON does... What a weird deal.

Not directly related to OKC's project, but thought this was interesting: PHOTOS: Cincinnati?s First Modern Streetcar Arrives in Over-the-Rhine ? UrbanCincy (http://www.urbancincy.com/2015/11/photos-cincinnatis-first-modern-streetcar-arrives-in-over-the-rhine/)