View Full Version : New Convention Center?



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thoth
12-09-2009, 09:48 AM
Were the renderings of the convention center that we've seen so far the actual preliminary design and look, or were those just used for the vote? Also, do the renderings of the convention center in the core to shore plan have any relevance anymore?

FritterGirl
12-09-2009, 12:49 PM
Likely no, and no. They really won't be able to put together anything definitive until the go through site selection. Once that's been determined, and land acquired, environmental and other engineering studies conducted, then they'll put forth actual renderings.

The renderings used during Core to Shore were just a mock-up to show participants and stakeholders "what could be." It's the same with any of the renderings used for these kinds of large initiatives. They give you an "idea," but until other critical factors have been determined, the rendering is just there to forward a concept.

thoth
12-09-2009, 02:06 PM
That's good. I really didn't like the renderings they put out for the vote. In fact, I thought they were pretty awful looking. I hope that they design something that is really innovative and beautiful looking.

jbrown84
12-09-2009, 05:19 PM
I preferred the "rose rock center" design in Skyline Ink's animation over the one shown in MAPS materials.

But neither are necessarily what will be built.

soonerguru
12-09-2009, 10:01 PM
God help us if they refer to our convention center as Rose Rock Center.

jbrown84
12-09-2009, 11:06 PM
If it looks like a giant rose rock, why not? haha

betts
12-09-2009, 11:15 PM
Hopefully not. I actually liked the design that had the apartments on the side of the convention center facing the park, with all the balconies. Trouble is, I don't want the convention center to face the park. So, I'm all for a new design. If the city is getting inundated with calls from architects, like we're told, we should be able to do a little negotiating on price and get a good one. There's not that much in that price range going up around the country right now.

Thundercitizen
12-10-2009, 11:00 PM
...If the city is getting inundated with calls from architects, like we're told, we should be able to do a little negotiating on price and get a good one. and we're fortunate to have several top-notch A-E firms in our backyard.
The thing is everyone will want to face the park, or eventually, the river.

OKC@heart
12-11-2009, 08:02 PM
and we're fortunate to have several top-notch A-E firms in our backyard.
The thing is everyone will want to face the park, or eventually, the river.

Unfortunately for those great local A-E Firms, rarely do they get selected to design the really large projects that make a statement, rather usually it is one of the more national firms in Dallas, that get tapped for the job.

However, since the economy is still abysmal, even the most large named architects are hungry and so we might be able to snag a big name architect to help us with an iconic structure that rolls out the welcome mat to conventions who want to be here because of the facility as well as the great things OKC has to support it! Calatrava, Hadid, Hull, partnered with say Gensler or RTKL?

Either way it is going to be exciting to watch events unfold!

lasomeday
12-11-2009, 09:08 PM
I think the city should have a competition and get architects from around the world to do some designs for two locations one between the Mill and the "boulevard" and one next to the park.

Maybe we will have some that think outside the box and incorporate the existing buildings or build around them and they could convert the existing buildings into the offices or cafes.

They should also do an international competition for the Central Park. That way we have more options, that possibly incorporate more of the existing buildings instead of building new ones of the restaurants like Hargreaves suggests.

jbrown84
12-11-2009, 11:04 PM
I'm pretty sure Hargreaves has the job.

Spartan
12-12-2009, 12:17 AM
I am still pulling for them to do the convention center on the mill site AND incorporate the mills. That could really be something cool. For a reference, check out the Mill City Museum in Minneapolis -- they used an old grain mill on the Mississippi River on the northeast side of the river and built a very contemporary museum complex around it. Very edgy and innovative.

I also loved the rose rock center design, but I wanted to throw up in my mouth every time I saw the MAPS 3 rendering. I know that it won't end up looking anything like either of those two.. but I just can't believed they even bothered changing the placeholder design to that hideous look with the garish awnings. Who did they pay to come up with that?? Seriously. And it's no wonder the convention center was so unpopular when those were the images they kept showing everybody.

betts
12-12-2009, 06:50 AM
I am still pulling for them to do the convention center on the mill site AND incorporate the mills. That could really be something cool. For a reference, check out the Mill City Museum in Minneapolis -- they used an old grain mill on the Mississippi River on the northeast side of the river and built a very contemporary museum complex around it. Very edgy and innovative.

That's exactly what I've been thinking. I think the mill actually has a very unique look, and could possibly be incorporated. And, after thoroughly looking at all the sites on a bike tour of the area, my husband and I both agree that it is our favorite site. Not that that's going to have any affect on the decision.

thoth
12-12-2009, 11:48 AM
Any news about the convention center having a large hotel attached to it?

bdhumphreys
12-12-2009, 11:56 AM
I think the city should have a competition and get architects from around the world to do some designs...

Completely agree. But the location should be selected first through the open "consensus building" process promised by the Mayor. Otherwise, it will be too difficult to separate the debate about site selection from the debate about design.

Why wouldn't we do a design competition? It is one of the best ways to get allow the community to see what is possible and choose the best fit.

lasomeday
12-12-2009, 01:22 PM
Having a competition will also bring more national attention to us. Architects from around the world will come and visit the site. They might possibly see the potential of OKC while they are here, and maybe do another project.

Spartan
12-12-2009, 04:19 PM
Completely agree. But the location should be selected first through the open "consensus building" process promised by the Mayor. Otherwise, it will be too difficult to separate the debate about site selection from the debate about design.

Why wouldn't we do a design competition? It is one of the best ways to get allow the community to see what is possible and choose the best fit.

There really isn't anybody that I've heard of, besides the City, advocating for it to go on the C2S site.. so that begs the question what the deal is.

lasomeday
12-12-2009, 04:55 PM
That city planning department has a department of MBA's/marketing people that are fighting for Core to Shore to be the concrete plan for the area. The group has no design or planning experience.

Spartan
12-12-2009, 06:32 PM
The problem with that though, from a marketing perspective, is that true urbanism I think sells itself better. People know the real thing when they see it. I think that's why people in OKC generally favor the mill site over the Shields site. I also think that's why locals are so critical of Lower Bricktown, Bass Pro in particular.

rcjunkie
12-13-2009, 12:40 AM
Any news about the convention center having a large hotel attached to it?


Maybe John Q. Hammons will take a look at this location for yet another downtown hotel, he already has 3 in the Downtown/Bricktown area, plus 1 in Norman and 1 in Tulsa.

Spartan
12-13-2009, 01:08 AM
A JQH hotel isn't quite what we're looking for in a convention hotel. I'd be expecting a brand more like a Hyatt, Four Seasons, Omni, etc etc..

Larry OKC
12-13-2009, 01:46 AM
Aren't most hotel chains just franchises anyway? Can all have the same owner but different brand names on the doors?

rcjunkie
12-13-2009, 01:52 AM
A JQH hotel isn't quite what we're looking for in a convention hotel. I'd be expecting a brand more like a Hyatt, Four Seasons, Omni, etc etc..

I disagree, a few months back I stayed at the Renaissance Resort at the World Golf Village in St. Augustine Fl. a John Q. Hammons Hotel and something like this would be a welcome addition to our City.

Dustin
12-13-2009, 03:19 AM
The rose rock design looks like it would cost a gazillion dollars! Would be nice though..

soonerguru
12-13-2009, 11:28 AM
I would hope we would shoot for the moon on convention center hotel brands.

Spartan
12-13-2009, 12:36 PM
I disagree, a few months back I stayed at the Renaissance Resort at the World Golf Village in St. Augustine Fl. a John Q. Hammons Hotel and something like this would be a welcome addition to our City.

The Renaissance Resort at the World Golf Village in St. Augustine Fl is not what we're looking for.. that would be a typical JQH hotel tho. His urban hotels aren't anything special, although the Bricktown Hampton Inn is very nice, still not convention quality. I and any other urban enthusiasts would riot if we put one of his resort hotels in the middle of downtown, right across the highway from the Bass Pro..

You're right that something like the Renaissance Resort at the World golf Village in St. Augustine Fl would be a welcome addition to our city..on Memorial Road. NOT in downtown.

soonerguru
12-13-2009, 12:48 PM
The Renaissance Resort at the World Golf Village in St. Augustine Fl is not what we're looking for.. that would be a typical JQH hotel tho. His urban hotels aren't anything special, although the Bricktown Hampton Inn is very nice, still not convention quality. I and any other urban enthusiasts would riot if we put one of his resort hotels in the middle of downtown, right across the highway from the Bass Pro..

You're right that something like the Renaissance Resort at the World golf Village in St. Augustine Fl would be a welcome addition to our city..on Memorial Road. NOT in downtown.

Absolutely agree.

RE: Hampton Inn. I don't believe that one is a JQH hotel.

Spartan
12-13-2009, 12:56 PM
Oh you're right, you're right..it's owned by a group of Wisconsin investors, same people who own the Power Alley Garage..

LakeEffect
12-13-2009, 01:17 PM
Oh you're right, you're right..it's owned by a group of Wisconsin investors, same people who own the Power Alley Garage..

The Power Alley Garage is locally owned (Marsh Pittman is primary, I believe).

jbrown84
12-14-2009, 12:30 AM
The Power Alley Garage is locally owned (Marsh Pittman is primary, I believe).

Yes and Pittman is a part owner in the Hampton.

The convention center hotel should be a Hyatt Regency or Grand Hyatt at the very least.


I am still pulling for them to do the convention center on the mill site AND incorporate the mills. That could really be something cool. For a reference, check out the Mill City Museum in Minneapolis -- they used an old grain mill on the Mississippi River on the northeast side of the river and built a very contemporary museum complex around it. Very edgy and innovative.

I just don't see those big metal huts having the same value for adaptive reuse. We've got Rocktown right next door (still advocate demolishing that?), and I just think a concrete vertical silo type thing (like in Minneapolis) is a little different than an overgrown metal shed. I'm willing to be proven wrong, but I don't see it.

RedDirt717
12-14-2009, 07:18 AM
I think the city should have a competition and get architects from around the world to do some designs for two locations one between the Mill and the "boulevard" and one next to the park.

Maybe we will have some that think outside the box and incorporate the existing buildings or build around them and they could convert the existing buildings into the offices or cafes.

They should also do an international competition for the Central Park. That way we have more options, that possibly incorporate more of the existing buildings instead of building new ones of the restaurants like Hargreaves suggests.

Just get Rand Eliot to do everything and call it a day.

benman
12-14-2009, 07:31 AM
Just get Rand Eliot to do everything and call it a day.

Ha, I'm picking up on some sacasm? At least I hope you are not serious...

betts
12-14-2009, 08:06 AM
I would hope we would shoot for the moon on convention center hotel brands.

Me too. Conventions are frequently a time when someone's company is footing all or part of the bill. People love the opportunity to stay someplace upscale, especially if they might not ordinarily stay in that type of hotel.

sgt. pepper
12-14-2009, 10:35 AM
lets hope it's taller than 10 stories

mmonroe
12-14-2009, 11:09 AM
JQH isn't that bad for being a convention hotel.. look at Rogers, Arkansas..
Location: Embassy Suites NWA - Rogers/Bentonville Arkansas Hotels (http://www.embassysuitesnwa.com/maps.aspx) not that far from Pinnacle Hills Promenade Information ? Hours, Address, Directions (http://www.pinnaclehillspromenade.com/about)
And even Tulsa, not a convention center hotel, but still a rather nice hotel.
Renaissance Tulsa - Hotels in Tulsa Oklahoma - Convention Center & Hotel (http://www.renaissancetulsa.com/home.aspx)
Oh hey Look.. JQH in OKC... Downtown Oklahoma City Hotels: Renaissance Oklahoma City Hotel - Luxury Hotels (http://www.renaissanceoklahomacity.com/home.aspx)

progressiveboy
12-14-2009, 11:53 AM
I think that OKC should strive for a Hyatt or Omni for a covention center hotel. It has a much better name brand globally and would be a good fit for OKC since it is striving to be a Tier 2 covention site.

OKCRT
12-14-2009, 12:03 PM
Just throw a Holiday Inn up and I will be happy! As long as it's a high rise tower.

krisb
12-14-2009, 12:21 PM
How about Westin, W Hotels, or Adam's Mark?

OKC@heart
12-14-2009, 12:43 PM
Just throw a Holiday Inn up and I will be happy! As long as it's a high rise tower.

I appreciate your gusto and enthusiasm for building the city but size in this case is not all that matters...I have actually seen horrible highrise buildings that actually devalue the area. See the attached image of Mercer tower a condo development in Houston. What a mistake!

The converntion center hotel for OKC must be a hotel with national and international recognition to further support the claim that we are a second tier city and that the hotel matches the expectations of the event organizers for the level of service that they will be offered in other cities.

Quality does matter!!! If not we run the risk of re-enforcing the notion that any developer gets approved just becuase something is better than nothing! Dangerous logic. Dangerous!

Urbanized
12-14-2009, 12:44 PM
Wow. That is tough to look at.

kevinpate
12-14-2009, 02:03 PM
I like the thought of an Omni ... unless the cc is built at the millsite and incorporates components of the old mill, as some have advocated. Then, to keep a sense of balance, we need a really tall red roof inn instead.

I realize some are strong on the thought, and I realize I probably just don't get it. But every time I think of converting part of that site into the cc I start hearing lil voices in my head and they sound a lot like kelli pickler and jeff foxworthy.

Spartan
12-14-2009, 03:34 PM
Mercer's front isn't that ugly..
http://houstonluxuryhighrises.com/graphics/mercer/mercer.jpg

But that was a great example. I had to laugh at that.

Getting top-notch chains won't be a problem for OKC. W is even possible. Wichita has a Hyatt for theirs, Ft Worth got an Omni for theirs. Why couldn't OKC get a W or Four Seasons? I think settling for a JQH hotel would be a shame.

OKC@heart
12-14-2009, 04:06 PM
I would love to see a mandarin oriental or something that would have international presence. Plus Dallas was supposed to get a huge one and due to the economy they only built the parking garage and then stopped and that was the end of it. We in OKC are all to familliar with that situation, so it would be a little bit of a guilty pleasure if OKC were to real them in and get it done. I mean don't get me wrong...its a nice parking lot...

I'm not speaking ill of Dallas either though. Have lived there and it is great city with a lot going on. I wish them the best, I just wish Okc better.

The other Suggestions were great also The W and Omni, would also be great.

OKC@heart
12-14-2009, 04:13 PM
Mercer's front isn't that ugly..
http://houstonluxuryhighrises.com/graphics/mercer/mercer.jpg

But that was a great example. I had to laugh at that.

Getting top-notch chains won't be a problem for OKC. W is even possible. Wichita has a Hyatt for theirs, Ft Worth got an Omni for theirs. Why couldn't OKC get a W or Four Seasons? I think settling for a JQH hotel would be a shame.

I will concede only that the front is slightly less visually offensive, but unfortunately it is mostly seen from US-59, 610 & I-10 and it presents itself horribly in context.

Remember this is their best marketing image...The "money shot" if you saw this institutional monstrosity in place and adjacent to the back drop of many well conceived and executed high rise buildings it sticks out like a transplant from Sarajevo or another war torn region, all it lacks the bullet & mortal shell holes in the side etc... Granted this is residential not a hotel but...anyway.

Thundercitizen
12-14-2009, 04:22 PM
If Howard Roark saw it, he would sneak in at night and blow it up.

Spartan
12-14-2009, 04:46 PM
It's amazing for all of the high-rises going up that we have just now been presented with one that was truly visually hideous. I still say Houston's done well considering most of the high-rises look fine.

mugofbeer
12-14-2009, 04:49 PM
I bet a lot of people thought the same thing about jails before we built that catastrophe of a county jail. Now we get to build another one!

OKCRT
12-14-2009, 05:04 PM
Too bad they tore the Biltmore down. Anyone have any old pics of that hotel?

RedDirt717
12-14-2009, 05:06 PM
Ha, I'm picking up on some sacasm? At least I hope you are not serious...

Of course I'm being sarcastic.

jbrown84
12-14-2009, 07:46 PM
How about Westin, W Hotels, or Adam's Mark?

Adam's Mark is a dying brand. There are like 2 left. W would be awesome. If Austin can get one, so can we.


I think settling for a JQH hotel would be a shame.

Agreed!

soonerguru
12-14-2009, 08:49 PM
Just get Rand Eliot to do everything and call it a day.

No.

soonerguru
12-14-2009, 08:53 PM
I like the thought of an Omni ... unless the cc is built at the millsite and incorporates components of the old mill, as some have advocated. Then, to keep a sense of balance, we need a really tall red roof inn instead.

I realize some are strong on the thought, and I realize I probably just don't get it. But every time I think of converting part of that site into the cc I start hearing lil voices in my head and they sound a lot like kelli pickler and jeff foxworthy.

I think it may be time to move on from the mill site if we choose to locate the cc there. To try to incorporate it would be crass and serve no real purpose.

lasomeday
12-29-2009, 06:51 PM
Is there room between the interstate and the mill to build the convention center, and then can build up? They could expand across and over the railroad, and the mill can be purchased by developers for hotels.

muzique808
12-29-2009, 07:19 PM
Isn't part of the cotton oil mill still in operation? Are they ready to shut down and sell if it is?

I still see truck traffic in and out of there is why I ask.

Spartan
12-29-2009, 07:26 PM
They are most absolutely ready to cash in on their real estate across from downtown..

Watson410
12-29-2009, 07:37 PM
They are getting ready to install a new railroad track that starts/connects on the south side of the mill and wraps around the east side to the north side of the mill.

easternobserver
12-29-2009, 11:14 PM
Part of the problem with attracting top tier conference hotels is that nearly all conferences draw some sort of government officials, so government rates need to be considered. Sometimes, negotiated "block" rates are even tied to government rates. Unfortunately, the current GSA lodging maximum for OKC is $84. Fort Worth, by comparison, is $151. Even Wichita is $91. Such a low allowable rate means that a conference center will take a pretty good hit on the government rooms offered (the actual number of rooms allowed at this rate can be capped, but the potential for government rate users to fill rooms and thus bolster profits is nonexistant). Not necessarily a dealbreaker, but also seves to illustrate that OKC may not be able to support the room rates charged by an ultra-high-end hotel.

Spartan
12-30-2009, 02:43 AM
Well why are Ft Worth's twice as high as OKC? -- Ft Worth has an Omni, and better convention infrastructure. Would OKC's rate not also go up if the convention infrastructure improved?

kbsooner
12-30-2009, 04:50 AM
The design teams have not been chosen.

easternobserver
12-30-2009, 12:04 PM
The GSA rates are based on the prevailing cost for rooms across the entire MSA. Adding a downtown hotel or two with higher rates will not be enough to change that, and that hotel will need to either offer government rates at a deep discount or be passed over for convention traffic. Not an attractive situation for attracting a top flagged hotel.

Attracting such a hotel is not impossible, but generally there will need to be subsidies in one form or another (direct cash, exclusivity on food/drink, public funding for construction costs, directed parking revenues, etc.).