Did anyone see the Channel 9 story about Fire station #7 being closed for the last year and a half? The City Manager actualy said that he didn't know there was a problem with station #7. I think that is horrible not to know that a fire station has been shut down for over a year in a city that you are responsible for. I wonder if he knows about the other fire station #6 that has been closed down for 6 months as well. I am not good with links but I am sure someone can post the story on here. And why is the City manager waiting until next week to decide on his plan to lay off 40 firefighters?

I saw it and paid attention because I like to eat lunch often at Grill on the Hill.

I understand Couch to mean that he found it surprising that the issue of the station was raised at this particular time (just before the MAPS 3 vote). There were structural problems with the station.

Of course I suppose closing it for structural reasons is better than letting the firemen burn it down as in another recently publicized incident at another station. (Just kidding folks)

I saw the story, but did not come away from that broadcast with the interpretation you did. Not even close.

It is my understeanding after re-watching the video, that plans have been approved to fix station #7. That is great. But it also said that the bid process was 90% complete? Does it really take a year and a half to get bids to fix a city building? What takes that long, beurocracy? ( I am sure I spelled that wrong )

Last second smear campaign?

FAIL

NTM is LOSING, and they are now going full-on with the smears.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize we couldn't talk about real issues in the city without it being redirected to a Maps discussion. I know the story says something about Maps, but my thread is strictly about the Fire station issue and the City manager's response. Vote however you want on Maps. Not interested indiscussing it here. I was simply pointing out something that caught my attention and seemed like a real issue.

It can take awhile, especially when you are dealing with the snails pace at which gov'ts operate. It takes awhile for the city to develop the proposal, post the RFQ, the RFQ review period, RFQ acceptance and negotiations with the selected engineer. Then you have to do a thorough structural investigation/testing and mitigation design with several city reviews along the way. Then you have to assess the budget and what is a need versus what is desired to stay in budget. Then you go through the whole bid process again with contractors before you can start anything.

Last second smear campaign?

FAIL

NTM is LOSING, and they are now going full-on with the smears.The YFM side has ran smear ads haven't they?

The YFM side has ran smear ads haven't they?

Nope.

Next.

:poke:

The YFM side has ran smear ads haven't they?

All of their ads have been pretty positive.

What individuals say on the internet can't be controlled.

(see the 'no' side's iron, for example)

Here is a little tidbit for you. Station 4 and station 6 were voted on in the 2000 G.O. bond to relocate. Station 4 and station 7 are ready to go and are funded. About 1.8 million to rebuild #7 and about 3.4 million to relocate and rebuild #4. Both of them were delayed because the city applied for Stimulus money to fund them. Both were considered shovel ready and both were declined. As of today no work done on #6 and #7 and #4 has the foundation poured. #4 and #6 originally were slated to cost approx. 1.8 million each. The city put the projects off so long that the cost's have almost doubled, I would call that something, I'm not sure what, but it's not good to wait so long the cost's double. I wonder how long it would have taken if we weren't the cities number 1 priority?

Casts have doubled? That seems odd given the low inflation rate in the last decade and the fact that with the recession material and labor costs have fallen.

The YFM side has ran smear ads haven't they?
One the positives to come out of the MAPS 3 deal for me personally has been the making of a new friend, that being you, my friend. But, Andy, I had the impression from the 11/13 press conference, generally (even though he said several things that just didn't compute), and also as influenced by what you said to me, that Sipe was a guy who stood tall, with dignity and class.

This particular item and use of same in the campaign was not his finest hour. I'd just as soon leave it at that without further elaboration, unless pressed.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize we couldn't talk about real issues in the city without it being redirected to a Maps discussion. I know the story says something about Maps, but my thread is strictly about the Fire station issue and the City manager's response. Vote however you want on Maps. Not interested indiscussing it here. I was simply pointing out something that caught my attention and seemed like a real issue.
If the item really IS a real issue, why in god's green earth did it not rear its head quite some time ago? Do you think that some epiphany suddenly occurred on the eve of the vote?

The union's general position, in the main, is not credible and is disingenuous. I've already written about this and no need exists to elaborate again, unless pressed.

If the item really IS a real issue, why in god's green earth did it not rear its head quite some time ago? Do you think that some epiphany suddenly occurred on the eve of the vote?

The union's general position, in the main, is not credible and is disingenuous. I've already written about this and no need exists to elaborate again, unless pressed.

:congrats:
:congrats:
:congrats:
:yourock:

Nope.

Next.

:poke:Your right I should have said misleading and/or false. Sorry

Casts have doubled? That seems odd given the low inflation rate in the last decade and the fact that with the recession material and labor costs have fallen.

I see where your coming from betts. But MM51 is right. The BT station was voted on in 2000 in the amount of $1,875,000. It was funded 2 or 3 years later, as of 2 or 3 weeks ago according to a City Manager report the estimated construction cost now stands at $3,500.00. give or take a 100 grand. It's a matter of public record.

That is a point I've been trying to make from day 1. But nobody seems to think much of it, or even care for that matter. This is one of the reasons I've opposed MAPS 3 from the beginning, long before all this P & F stuff hit the scene.

Casts have doubled? That seems odd given the low inflation rate in the last decade and the fact that with the recession material and labor costs have fallen.

That is apparently what has happened. He has brought this up before and posted the source material (2000 bond issue and the City Budgets). Have to remember that construction costs have indeed gone up in the past decade. During the Ford vote, the Mayor's office said that to build the Ford EXACTLY as it was (5 years later), had a significant cost increase (I don't have the number in front of me but if memory serves it was about double too). It is true that some construction costs have gone down in the past year (see Practice Facility).

Also have to remember the true cost of any bond issue project. Anything paid with bonds are a long term debt that has to be paid back with interest. According to an old MAPS article, a $10M bond (to deal with cost over runs on the Library) was to have a $1M/year "debt service" for the next 20 years (unclear if that $20M includes the original $10M borrowed or is just the interest being paid back). At the very least, it is costing you double whatever the stated amount. So if the stated costs have doubled from the original, throw in the "debt service" amount...

It can take awhile, especially when you are dealing with the snails pace at which gov'ts operate. It takes awhile for the city to develop the proposal, post the RFQ, the RFQ review period, RFQ acceptance and negotiations with the selected engineer. Then you have to do a thorough structural investigation/testing and mitigation design with several city reviews along the way. Then you have to assess the budget and what is a need versus what is desired to stay in budget. Then you go through the whole bid process again with contractors before you can start anything.

I think scope change has something to do with Station 6 (Bricktown). More things wanted than originally planned...

I think scope change has something to do with Station 6 (Bricktown). More things wanted than originally planned...I believe that's a valid point, I'm sure they have added a few goodies that would cause a cost increase. But double, I wouldn't think so. I know they figure in a % of the projections for a cushion, and I'm sure they have made a little interest. I could be wrong, but I can't imagine those 2 making up the $1.6 mil. Where will it come from. Something or someone is going to pay for it. I see no reason why the same won't be true for the N.E. station, so now were in the hole $3.2 mil.

Did anyone see the Channel 9 story about Fire station #7 being closed for the last year and a half? The City Manager actualy said that he didn't know there was a problem with station #7.

I'm staying out of all these debates. But I'm going to speak out when something is outright wrong. I watched the report. Jim Couch was clearly aware of Station 7 being closed. He told the reporter it wasn't until their interview that he had heard of this being a problem for the firefighters union and that they hadn't cited it in talks with him.

I'm done. Everybody can now proceed in turning OKC into another Tulsa (through the tone of debate by all sides)

If that's what he said then Couch told a big fib. He and the rest of the city council have known about this from day one. I mean come on, one of your fire stations gets condemned and he didn' know about it?

For goodness sake lump9816, PAY ATTENTION, the City Manager stated that he knew it had been condemned, and plans were in place to repair it, what he said was that the Union had never voiced any concern to him about the delay in repairs, even though they have serveral meetings about numerous issues.

Do you now understand or should we type slower.

For goodness sake lump9816, PAY ATTENTION, the City Manager stated that he knew it had been condemned, and plans were in place to repair it, what he said was that the Union had never voiced any concern to him about the delay in repairs, even though they have serveral meetings about numerous issues.

Do you now understand or should we type slower.

rcjunkie, we understand that you are retired from city management. We've got that. You couldn't be any clearer. I would like to see if the city managers lips move when the words come out of your mouth though.
You can type as slow as you want, it won't be any more believable.

rcjunkie, we understand that you are retired from city management. We've got that. You couldn't be any clearer. I would like to see if the city managers lips move when the words come out of your mouth though.
You can type as slow as you want, it won't be any more believable.

I believe his point is that what was claimed by the author of this thread has been pretty much debunked but the later poster appeared to ignore that fact.

For goodness sake lump9816, PAY ATTENTION, the City Manager stated that he knew it had been condemned, and plans were in place to repair it, what he said was that the Union had never voiced any concern to him about the delay in repairs, even though they have serveral meetings about numerous issues.

Do you now understand or should we type slower.


What difference does it make whether or not the Fire Union voiced concern about this fire station. It is the City Managers job to make sure that these worksites stay open to protect the citizens in a timely fashion.
It his job and his 3 assistants jobs too make sure they are in tune with what is going on in this city. We the citizens pay this man and his assistants. Mr. City Manager dont try to pass the buck on this one. You know damn good and well that this station had been shut down for a year and half, chose to do nothing about it, and you got called on it. Maybe he thought the Hispanic community would not notice their fire station being closed or maybe he didnt care. Either way there is no excuse....

What difference does it make whether or not the Fire Union voiced concern about this fire station. It is the City Managers job to make sure that these worksites stay open to protect the citizens in a timely fashion.
It his job and his 3 assistants jobs too make sure they are in tune with what is going on in this city. We the citizens pay this man and his assistants. Mr. City Manager dont try to pass the buck on this one. You know damn good and well that this station had been shut down for a year and half, chose to do nothing about it, and you got called on it. Maybe he thought the Hispanic community would not notice their fire station being closed or maybe he didnt care. Either way there is no excuse....


Now that everyone clearly sees that with the Fire Department IT"S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY, and the citizens are tired of it, you stoop to a new low by trying to make it a racial issue. Why am I not suprized.

Now that everyone clearly sees that with the Fire Department IT"S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY, and the citizens are tired of it, you stoop to a new low by trying to make it a racial issue. Why am I not suprized.
LOL. I have thoughts of the Mayor skipping through bricktown with MY TAX dollars falling out of every pocket as it's funneled through Akerman and Mcqueen. Now who's "SHOW ME THE MONEY". Feel like a sucker rc?

LOL. I have thoughts of the Mayor skipping through bricktown with MY TAX dollars falling out of every pocket as it's funneled through Akerman and Mcqueen. Now who's "SHOW ME THE MONEY". Feel like a sucker rc?

I don't really feel like a sucker, maybe a lolipop, one of those with tootsie roll in the middle.

P.S. see you at the victory party, I'll save the last dance for you!!!

Now that everyone clearly sees that with the Fire Department IT"S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY, and the citizens are tired of it, you stoop to a new low by trying to make it a racial issue. Why am I not suprized.

Not a racial issue, just a fact. That is the majority of people whom live in that area. It doesnt matter what the nationality of the population in that area is. The problem lies with the City Manager not addressing or knowing that there is a problem there. But thanks for trying to make it a racial issue. lol

I thought that all of the fire department ranting was about adequate levels of staffing, not raises or money. I dont know, you tell me...

So Iron, if MAPS passes, are you putting your house up for sale and moving to Harrah or somewhere?

I don't really feel like a sucker, maybe a lolipop, one of those with tootsie roll in the middle.

:LolLolLol

I thought that all of the fire department ranting was about adequate levels of staffing, not raises or money. I dont know, you tell me...
It is about money...for the union,
higher staffing levels = more members = more dues
Whenever the union is involved in something like this it is more than likely about the union leadership desires and not the rank and file concerns.

Hey bluedogok, your right about that that's why for the last three weeks, Monday thru Saturday, rank and file have shown up to go out and canvass against maps. Around 50 to 100. We have been doing this at the whim of the leadership. I believe the goal was to make contact with at least 75,000 registered voters. I could be wrong, one of you other guys help me out here!

There have been a lot more pro-MAPS volunteers than that and they don't have anyone looking over their shoulder "suggesting" they get out and campaign in favor of the union.

Which is why they are having to bribe the yes people with free thunder tickets or give them paid time off to go and campaign. Yea, that argument really holds water......NOT

Which is why they are having to bribe the yes people with free thunder tickets or give them paid time off to go and campaign. Yea, that argument really holds water......NOT

I didn't get paid one red cent. I did get a Maps Yes t-shirt though. You're full of it if you think the volunteers I canvassed with got paid. Sorry to interrupt your little movie.

Oh, and welcome to the board. I see you're working the troll night shift. This is comical to watch.

They're not "bribing" volunteers. I volunteered and used my own ticket. But, since the volunteers work during halftime as well, if they don't have a ticket to the game, they're sitting around doing very little while the game is going on. It's nice for them to be able to go in and watch the game between the start of the game and halftime.

I got a slice of pizza when I was assembling signs, if we need to make full disclosure, though.

Troll shift it is then,
I couldn't sleep after puking up my guts after the Mayor's last commercial of lies....and thought I'd give my hand a try a pissing off "OKC's self proclaimed most educated minds". So the offers of paid time off and free thunder tickets to walk the streets for the yes initiative are untrue?

I did both for free, that's all I know. I'm becoming rather inured to the attempts to piss us off. After Tuesday, you'll all be gone regardless.

Nah, you won't be rid of many of us until well after city council and mayoral elections. Glad you did it for free though. Me too!

I doubt it. You all will probably die of boredom when we return to discussing restoration of downtown buildings, Project 180, Whole Foods rumors and the like. Which is fine by me.

While you do bore me at times, it's better than what I've read in the daily disappointment sans the comics. I've been a long time follower of these blogs but only a recent contributor due to the level of pure ineptness being displayed by the likes of your tribe.

Which is why they are having to bribe the yes people with free thunder tickets or give them paid time off to go and campaign. Yea, that argument really holds water......NOT

I was quite put off when I went to the Thunder VS Celtics game on Friday and had rude pro MAPS3 people harassing me and trying to shove stuff in my hands - the SEATS even had these crappy pitches on paper for MAPS3 poked into the tops of all the seats and the MAPS3 people were everywhere.

I went to see the Thunder - not get a political point of view shoved down my throat.

That was so wrong in so many ways and I am calling my Thunder Sales Executive on Monday to tell her of my poor experience due to the MAPS3 people.

I was quite put off when I went to the Thunder VS Celtics game on Friday and had rude pro MAPS3 people harassing me and trying to shove stuff in my hands - the SEATS even had these crappy pitches on paper for MAPS3 poked into the tops of all the seats and the MAPS3 people were everywhere.

I went to see the Thunder - not get a political point of view shoved down my throat.

That was so wrong in so many ways and I am calling my Thunder Sales Executive on Monday to tell her of my poor experience due to the MAPS3 people.

And how is that different then the NOT THIS MAPS supporters showing up at shopping malls/stores on black Friday, shoving their pamplets in the faces of Christmas shoppers.

Rc, you make no sense in trying to correlate the two. Did you pay for season tickets or even a single ticket to stand in line during black fri? The NTM folks were handing out coffee and donuts along with their literature to anyone that wanted it. Even gave coffee to those poor cold souls that are die hard yes'ers. You were free to take it or leave it. If you went to the game, it was there for you to throw on the floor. If this isn't a show of private enterprise in a for profit venture I don't know what is. :backtotop

Rc, you make no sense in trying to correlate the two. Did you pay for season tickets or even a single ticket to stand in line during black fri? The NTM folks were handing out coffee and donuts along with their literature to anyone that wanted it. Even gave coffee to those poor cold souls that are die hard yes'ers. You were free to take it or leave it. If you went to the game, it was there for you to throw on the floor. If this isn't a show of private enterprise in a for profit venture I don't know what is. :backtotop

When I'm spending time with my family, no matter the location, I don't want to be bothered, just as you ddn't like it the basketball game.

P.S. I have court side, season tickets, and will as long as I'm alive and able to go.

So the yes folks at the game are not a harassment to those that have a different opinion? If the NTM are that much of a bother then perhaps you would be better to stay at home in peace and tranquility or treat all of them as the Hari Krishna's were in the original airplane. :fighting3

its not a last ditch campiagn effort. i do believe that couch didnt know. just like the mayor doesnt know that the city will be safer without as many fireifhgter an okc is no unsafe. I do beleive that they are told by the people under them and maybe they didnt tell them. But nothing changed. we have been wating 10 year for 2 fire stations to be built. its funny that teh city released the moeny to build one just a couple months back though now didnt it.

Pretty ridiculous that someone with THUNDER SEASON TICKETS is against MAPS to the point that they complain about some fliers being handed out.

And how is that different then the NOT THIS MAPS supporters showing up at shopping malls/stores on black Friday, shoving their pamplets in the faces of Christmas shoppers.

1. I do not know anything about any Black Friday issues as I do not do Black Friday.

2. I never said it was different than anything else HOWEVER - I did PAY to attend the game. You do not PAY to walk into a store unless it is a club store that requires membership. If I PAY to enjoy a NON political event - I should not be harassed about political issues.

3. My email and postal box has been crammed with vote for MAPS3 and my telephone answering machine was full of Vote Yes for MAPS3 which took 20 minutes of deleting to get rid of it.

I have not had a single person ask me to Vote no.

I have had well over 60 contacts of people by telephone, email, postal mail and in person telling me to vote YES.

So the Vote Yes People have basically turned me off voting yes just by the harassment.

I'm starting to realize that instead of t-shirts and signs, the NTM funds would been far better invested in some blocks of cheese.

I have had well over 60 contacts of people by telephone, email, postal mail and in person telling me to vote YES.

I call B.S. I'm on the YESforMaps email list and I've received nowhere near that many contacts, and not a single phone call.

My mother can attest to it, she said she threw away 8 pieces of pro MAPS mail she received on Monday alone. She said she has received numerous phone recorded phone calls from the Governor, Mary Fallin and others. i personally have only received 1 mailing piece and it was from the NTM folks. Don't know about phone calls, because my land line doesn't have an answring machine and I rarely am awake to receive calls during the day (work graveyard shift, ringer turned off). So 60 combined contacts doesn't seem to be out of the question. May be a little high.

I call B.S. I'm on the YESforMaps email list and I've received nowhere near that many contacts, and not a single phone call.

Well, now... lucky you!

Call what you want - truth is the truth no matter what you call it.

The Daily Oklahoman sent me the emails (they actually sent some to my work email also) or at least some of them and I still have some of the postal mail but I dumped some of it in the nice recycle bins the post office now has for us postal box holders to dispose of junk mail like political junk we do not want.

I am sure my name and information is on many lists since I vote EVERY issue no matter how big or small. Up to now I have voted yes on all the MAPS and the Ford Center vote.

I was on the fence until I started getting bombarded with Yes people.

Maybe they don't call you since they know you are for it.

I did not waste my time trying to track all the contacts down - especially since the vote is so soon. If it was longer - like a presidential election - then I would have tried to track the sources and asked to be removed.

Did you go to any Thunder games incognito lately? If so - you could have racked up quite a few contacts in one fell swoop. But if you were "scarlet lettered" then no one would have approached you in an effort to get your vote.

I will be glad when the vote is over so people will quit bugging me to vote yes.

Voting no because you are annoyed with people promoting MAPS 3.

Great reason! :rolleyes:

Voting no because you are annoyed with people promoting MAPS 3.

Great reason! :rolleyes:

Again another person putting words in my mouth. I never once said that I was voting no because yes people annoyed me. Those are strictly YOUR words. I said I was on the fence until then.

The hard sell got me to looking at it even closer. Like all the speeches about MAPS3 will do 1, 2, 3, etc. The ballot however, says MAY include...

Well, which is it? It either will or won't. Any capitol improvement can be done over the next few years. That is pretty broad. I do not have to approve of anyone doing any capitol improvements that happens to be the whim of the moment.

My mother can attest to it, she said she threw away 8 pieces of pro MAPS mail she received on Monday alone. She said she has received numerous phone recorded phone calls from the Governor, Mary Fallin and others. i personally have only received 1 mailing piece and it was from the NTM folks. Don't know about phone calls, because my land line doesn't have an answring machine and I rarely am awake to receive calls during the day (work graveyard shift, ringer turned off). So 60 combined contacts doesn't seem to be out of the question. May be a little high.

Thanks, Larry. I am in several organizations, mail lists, call lists, etc. Besides having been to Thunder games which were proliferant with YES Maps people.

Interesting. I got one piece of mail thanking me for my donation to the Yes for MAPS campaign and no phone calls.

Interesting. I got one piece of mail thanking me for my donation to the Yes for MAPS campaign and no phone calls.


lol Well, you can have some of mine, Betts. I will share with you! I still have more than a dozen hard pieces of mail from MAPS3. :) I wish now I had kept ALL of them as tally cards in case it passes to see how close they keep or don't keep their words.