It is my understanding that Jim Roth has endorsed as well.


Dear Friend,

As I visit with fellow House leaders throughout the country, I realize just
how fortunate we are here in Oklahoma City. Our unemployment is among
the very lowest in America and much of that credit goes to MAPS. We
cannot put our strong economy at risk! I am asking you to go to the polls
on December 8th and vote yes. You may have been hearing conflicting
information about MAPS. Get the facts at MAPSFACTS.COM (http://www.mapsfacts.com).

Sincerely,

Al McAffrey

P.S. Remember your yes vote will not increase taxes.

Your vote will raise taxes! Geez... That's why we are voting in the 1st place! :bright_id

How does it raise taxes? The passage of of it will only stop a sales tax deduction. How wrong and foolish looking are people gonna insist upon looking like anyway?

How does it raise taxes? The passage of of it will only stop a sales tax deduction. How wrong and foolish looking are people gonna insist upon looking like anyway?
Endlessly.

Wow!

This is a really big endorsement. McAffrey and Roth will be able to deliver the Gay-Lesbian-Bisexual-Trans community in OKC! Go MAPS!

What about some of the other major endorsements? Gov. Henry, Gov. Nigh and others are in a nice commercial for MAPS.

It's coming together. The heavy hitters are getting on board. IF THE MAPS SUPPORTERS MAKE IT TO THE POLLS, IT WILL WIN. But THEY MUST MAKE IT TO THE POLLS.

IF THE MAPS SUPPORTERS MAKE IT TO THE POLLS, IT WILL WIN. But THEY MUST MAKE IT TO THE POLLS.

The National Weather Service says that there is a pretty good chance of a "Significant Winter Weather Event" on Tuesday. I wonder if this development would play a role in the outcome. Hmmmm??

Here I'll explain it to you both. Doug you listening? WHEN, MAPS is voted down. Will this reduce our taxes? YUP!!! Sure Will!

So voting down MAPS will give us a TAX CUT! End of story. :doh::irule:

The National Weather Service says that there is a pretty good chance of a "Significant Winter Weather Event" on Tuesday. I wonder if this development would play a role in the outcome. Hmmmm??
Nope I plan to use that free ride the Chamber has offered to VOTE NO! :bow:

The National Weather Service says that there is a pretty good chance of a "Significant Winter Weather Event" on Tuesday. I wonder if this development would play a role in the outcome. Hmmmm??

If that happens, I like our odds even more. When the 2007 bond issue was voted on, we had a major ice storm. The results were HUGELY in favor of the bond issue.

Our side has more determined voters than their side. I think this is true regardless of weather.

They have a bunch of nihilistic angry people at the core, and then passive voters they can influence with lies at the margins. That is only effective to a point.

Our voters know what MAPS has done for this city and our side reads and votes. We are in good shape.

But don't let anyone be complacent. This vote is for the future of our city!

If you want a future of failure, division, negativity and discord, by all means vote NO. I don't think the majority of voters fit in this category.

WE ARE GOING TO WIN. This fact is starting to sink in with the opposition. But don't be complacent.

VOTE YES ON TUESDAY!

Here I'll explain it to you both. Doug you listening? WHEN, MAPS is voted down. Will this reduce our taxes? YUP!!! Sure Will!

So voting down MAPS will give us a TAX CUT! End of story. :doh::irule:
Yeah, I'm listening.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/why_yes_15.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/why_yes_21a.jpg

Are you?

... WHEN, MAPS is voted down. Will this reduce our taxes?

Whenever MAPs is voted down, that may be, but, it won't be the case on Dec. 8.

52-48, in favor of MAPs 3 ... at minimum. if I'm wrong, gloat away.
If I'm not, I'll do my best to simply be happy and not gloat or rub it in.

Everyone keeps trying to confuse Iron76hd with true facts and figures, now stop it.

Oh yea. That's what you are doing.

Give me the numbers on how the white water rapids, rail system and aquatic centers are going to be profitable to this city.

Since you are voting for them. Dazzle me with some numbers on them. I can't wait. You were a manager of some sort. SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!!!

Oh yea. That's what you are doing.

Give me the numbers on how the white water rapids, rail system and aquatic centers are going to be profitable to this city.

Since you are voting for them. Dazzle me with some numbers on them. I can't wait. You were a manager of some sort. SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!!!

Everyone notice how the only thing Iron76hd capitalizes is SHOW ME THE MONEY, I think that's the Union Yell.

So what are you getting Junkie? Dazzle me with some winning numbers on any the projects you are so passionate about.

The ones you want to waste MY tax dollars on.

So what are you getting Junkie? Dazzle me with some winning numbers on any the projects you are so passionate about.

The ones you want to waste MY tax dollars on.

You may consider it a waste, but if generates more tax dollars, or gives all citizens (young & old) something to do that helps promote and develop a healthy lifestyle, then my vote is still a YES.

And Iron76hd, unlike the Police and Fire Unions, everything is NOT ABOUT, SHOW ME THE MONEY.

Doug. I need more than Cheerleading! I need more than speeches and expensive commercials with no substance. Besides, "Keep the Momentum!"....let's keep the SPENDING momentum going....on whatever....

You could do better than that if the projects were any good, but they are not.

Doug. I see YOU want a rail system that's going to connect YOUR neighborhood with the FORD center. That means YOU won't even have to take YOUR car to the Thunder games. YOU must be excited about that idea. YOU want ME to PAY for it...for YOU. Right?

Doug. I see YOU want a Senior Aquatic Center that YOU can enjoy. YOU want ME to PAY for that also. for YOU. Right? I don't know what is wrong the YMCA. When I worked out there is was great.

Doug. I see YOU want me to PAY for a park to be built within walking distance from your home. Can YOU at least give me a PLEASE or a THANK you. YOU want ME to PAY for it right?

That is at least 3 reasons for YOU to vote Yes. That's at least three reasons YOU will gladly take this UNION goons money and get stuff YOU want. And I'll get to pay for the up keep on all of them for YOU to enjoy every year. Yeaaaaa....

If I vote YES guess what I get. YOUR BILL! No thanks.

iron76hd, will you disappear when MAPS3 passes?

Of course he will. The budget for the robot runs out on Dec. 8.


Give me the numbers on how the white water rapids, rail system and aquatic centers are going to be profitable to this city.

Numbers numbers numbers! Gotta have numbers. Give me the numbers on all the jobs that would be created from a 1-cent tax cut.

No one ever said those would be profit generators. They contribute to a better quality of life, which attracts more people to come here to visit or live, and that expands the tax base for all city services.

Everyone notice how the only thing Iron76hd capitalizes is SHOW ME THE MONEY, I think that's the Union Yell.

Ok, now THAT was funny!

Not Hardly. I plan to see to it that this MAYOR is exposed and OUT of office. He'll most likely take or get rid of the City Manager. So I won't worry about that. Along with several of the City Council members. Skip is a gonner. I won't even have to worry about that. Those people he says he represents will see to that. I helped get Prater in OFFICE. I'll do the same to make sure he's a gonner. I know the Firemen were a LARGE reason Marr's is on the council. I'll be working with them to see that he's a gonner.

He better make some very strong friends with the Chamber. He's gonna need'em.

Gov Henry is out of here so who cares.

No my work and the work of a lot more has only begun.

You see I don't want a guy calling me a bully and that's a LIAR for Mayor. You see knowingly distorting the truth to me is a lie. I can live with someone who makes an honest mistake in a conversation. Heck we are human. I would NEVER go on tv or say something that I KNOW is not EXACTLY the truth to further my agenda. That says a lot to me about someones character.

One that has the interests of a special few in mind, and wants to misuse my tax dollars for their benefit. I don't want a MAYOR that has mixed his OATH to do what is best for this city's citizens by pushing Private businesses WANTS to the front. Instead of this City's needs. Violating articles blatantly and blurring the lines of his office and position.

I don't want a City Manager that truly bullies SMALL Businesses like COUCH did with Hobby's Hoagies and intimidates how they run their business or what they post in their business. That's an abuse! What if a group of officers walked into the store and threatened the business owner to VOTE a certain way. I'd be disgusted and take pride in putting them in JAIL myself. I'd demand they be stripped of their badge and sent to the unemployment line.

I won't be gone and either will many others. Let's get a fresh set of eyes up there. A fresh set of ideas. Not MONEY Losing Projects in the midst of a budget shortfall that will lead to the lay off of already understaffed departments that are essential to every CITY in this country.

Nope we are just getting started.

They contribute to a better quality of life, which attracts more people to come here to visit or live, and that expands the tax base for all city services.

Hahahahahaha. Your killing me here... How will a Senior Aquatic Center do that exactly. How will a white water rapids do that? what we make in revenue will be used to subsidize it! Geez.. How will bike trails do that exaclty?

i don't know if ONE job will be created, but that's at least 777 MILLION DOLLARS that could be put right back into our economy right NOW! As we are facing budget shortfalls. Right?

Where are your numbers?? Oh right, you don't have them, because that's impossible for either side.

You just don't get it. Those things add up. No one single project has a significant impact, but they all add up to a better place to live. Do you think people want to move to Dallas all the time just for a change of scenery or so they can have twice the commute time? NO, it's because Dallas has created more opportunities for jobs, recreation, transportation options, and entertainment.

Notice how the opposition jacks every thread? The original post was about Roth and McAffrey's endorsements, and what a huge lift that is for MAPS.

What big endorsements does the no crowd have to crow about? None.

We've got Brad Henry, we've got Wayne Coyne, we have George Nigh, we have Jim Roth. Who they got?

Doug. I need more than Cheerleading! I need more than speeches and expensive commercials with no substance. Besides, "Keep the Momentum!"....let's keep the SPENDING momentum going....on whatever....
Who, me? :ohno:


You could do better than that if the projects were any good, but they are not.
Who, me? :dizzy: They aren't? :ohno:


Doug. I see YOU want a rail system that's going to connect YOUR neighborhood with the FORD center. That means YOU won't even have to take YOUR car to the Thunder games. YOU must be excited about that idea. YOU want ME to PAY for it...for YOU. Right?
Right.


Doug. I see YOU want a Senior Aquatic Center that YOU can enjoy. YOU want ME to PAY for that also. for YOU. Right?
Right.


I don't know what is wrong the YMCA. When I worked out there is was great.
None with a pool within walking distance from where I live. I want you to pay for one that is.


Doug. I see YOU want me to PAY for a park to be built within walking distance from your home. Can YOU at least give me a PLEASE or a THANK you. YOU want ME to PAY for it right?
Yes, and ...
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/thankyouverymuch.jpg


That is at least 3 reasons for YOU to vote Yes. That's at least three reasons YOU will gladly take this UNION goons money and get stuff YOU want. And I'll get to pay for the up keep on all of them for YOU to enjoy every year. Yeaaaaa....
Like I said,
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/thankyouverymuch.jpg


If I vote YES guess what I get. YOUR BILL! No thanks.
Well, then, I take back my Thank you's.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/nothanks.jpg
Thank you very much.

What big endorsements does the no crowd have to crow about? None.

They've got four or five of the numerous GOP candidates for Fallin's congressional seat. The ones that are pandering to the tea party types. And that's about it. Isn't there even a Paramedic group that's given money to YesForMaps?

Notice how the opposition jacks every thread? The original post was about Roth and McAffrey's endorsements, and what a huge lift that is for MAPS.

What big endorsements does the no crowd have to crow about? None.

We've got Brad Henry, we've got Wayne Coyne, we have George Nigh, we have Jim Roth. Who they got?
Aren't you forgetting iron76hd?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/148/361938268_ffcbf58d26.jpg

And we have David Prater. And we have Gary Marrs. We're on a roll. We're going to win!

VOTE YES ON TUESDAY!

That's an impressive add in. A bought and paid for soon to be ex-da and an ex fire chief who didn't support his departments men and women when he was in charge of them! They (yes for maps) must be getting desperate. The newest television commercial is a boldfaced LIE! That shows me their true colors.

lump, the Marrs and Prater endorsements are nothing new. How is that getting desperate?

Your side doesn't have the money to produce TV spots, much less anyone respectable to appear in them.

lump, the Marrs and Prater endorsements are nothing new. How is that getting desperate?

Your side doesn't have the money to produce TV spots, much less anyone respectable to appear in them.
Now wait just a gol' darn minute, jbrown. Are you telling me that you wouldn't pay money to see iron in a vote No commercial? Heck, I bet the Chamber might even foot the bill.

They've got four or five of the numerous GOP candidates for Fallin's congressional seat. The ones that are pandering to the tea party types. And that's about it. Isn't there even a Paramedic group that's given money to YesForMaps?

All of these morons should be hung with this when they run next fall. No point in having them represent OKC in Washington. What a disaster.

I'm just waiting for the bad spelling and stupid emoticons to go away. Ever notice that the number of emoticons a person uses in his/her posts is in direct correlation to said person's emotional maturity level? Guess they don't feel confident enough to be able to communicate their point without an animated "poke in the eye." N-i-i-i-i-i-c-e.

iron76hd, will you disappear when MAPS3 passes?

This.

That's an impressive add in. A bought and paid for soon to be ex-da and an ex fire chief who didn't support his departments men and women when he was in charge of them! They (yes for maps) must be getting desperate. The newest television commercial is a boldfaced LIE! That shows me their true colors.

And the NTM's assertions that the City is not supporting roads, bridges, education, etc. is also a BOLD FACED LIE. Go look in other posts I've made where I've directly addressed this issue and you'll see exactly what kind of a lie this is.

It boils down to Police & Fire not getting what they want. That's it. End of argument!

Doug. I need more than Cheerleading! I need more than speeches and expensive commercials with no substance. Besides, "Keep the Momentum!"....let's keep the SPENDING momentum going....on whatever....

You could do better than that if the projects were any good, but they are not.

Doug. I see YOU want a rail system that's going to connect YOUR neighborhood with the FORD center. That means YOU won't even have to take YOUR car to the Thunder games. YOU must be excited about that idea. YOU want ME to PAY for it...for YOU. Right?

Doug. I see YOU want a Senior Aquatic Center that YOU can enjoy. YOU want ME to PAY for that also. for YOU. Right? I don't know what is wrong the YMCA. When I worked out there is was great.

Doug. I see YOU want me to PAY for a park to be built within walking distance from your home. Can YOU at least give me a PLEASE or a THANK you. YOU want ME to PAY for it right?

That is at least 3 reasons for YOU to vote Yes. That's at least three reasons YOU will gladly take this UNION goons money and get stuff YOU want. And I'll get to pay for the up keep on all of them for YOU to enjoy every year. Yeaaaaa....

If I vote YES guess what I get. YOUR BILL! No thanks.

That, and also the world-class park, transportation that will eventually extend throughout the metro. Throw in whatever development the convention center brings to the park area, not to mention the badass kayaking venue.

Instead of bitching about everything, maybe you can actually, oh I don't know, ENJOY LIFE IN THIS WONDERFUL CITY.

I'm just waiting for the bad spelling and stupid emoticons to go away. Ever notice that the number of emoticons one uses in one's post is in direct correlation to said person's emotional maturity level?
How about pics? Instead of ROFL ...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/148/361938268_ffcbf58d26.jpg

Or this icon: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/yesmaps.gif

Sorry ... now that the campaign is all but done and there's really nothing new to say, I'm lightening up a little and taking things less seriously and I have decided to make a concerted effort to have some fun, particularly with some of our good vote-no friends.

Yes, Doug, but you don't use emoticons (or even multiple emoticons) in EVERY SINGLE post. A little goes a long way.

Hahahahahaha. Your killing me here... How will a Senior Aquatic Center do that exactly. How will a white water rapids do that? what we make in revenue will be used to subsidize it! Geez.. How will bike trails do that exaclty?

i don't know if ONE job will be created, but that's at least 777 MILLION DOLLARS that could be put right back into our economy right NOW! As we are facing budget shortfalls. Right?

Senior Aquatic Centers--healthy activity for our valued Seniors!
Bike Trails--fresh air and exercise for all that use them!!
White water rapids--expose citizens to a healthy activity.

All of these will help promote a healthy lifestyle. Irond76hd, if you think, it's really not that hard to understand.

And the NTM's assertions that the City is not supporting roads, bridges, education, etc. is also a BOLD FACED LIE. Go look in other posts I've made where I've directly addressed this issue and you'll see exactly what kind of a lie this is.

It boils down to Police & Fire not getting what they want. That's it. End of argument!

Amen Sister, I like the way you talk!

Q. I don't know what is wrong the YMCA. When I worked out there is was great.
A. None with a pool within walking distance from where I live. I want you to pay for one that is.

Love your sense of humor Doug! But I do have a question for you, since none of the senior aquatics locations have been announced, how do you know if they are going to be within "walking distance"? Oh, and you do realize that the Aquatic Centers aren't going to be free or minimal cost for the Seniors? The Mayor indicated this at one of those breaking through luncheons where the Mayor from the Arkansas one spoke. Was kind of surprised by the Mayor's position on this and I don't think most Seniors are aware of that. Article mentioned higher fees or some sort of arrangement with the Y.

Which brings up an interesting question, aren't there Y's and gyms etc that have the exercise elements that these are going to have? Not exclusively for Seniors but programs/classes targeted for them? Don't Community Centers already exist? Think some have been closed because of funding problems (for operations), and if that is the case it doesn't bode well for new ones either. They are going to have to pay for operations somehow. As the Senior Demographic rises, private industry will step in naturally and fill any void that exists?

By the way, recently realized that by the time these are built (about 4 or 5 years) I will qualify if the 50 year mark is used as in the Arkansas example. Ah, the joys have getting older.:LolLolLol

[s]ince none of the senior aquatics locations have been announced, how do you know if they are going to be within "walking distance"?
I just do. JK. Unless I'd get really really lucky, I'll need to drive (unless, like Iron said, they do a really cool trolley route near my house so that I can ride it to a center and/or to the Ford Center for Thunder games).


Oh, and you do realize that the Aquatic Centers aren't going to be free or minimal cost for the Seniors? The Mayor indicated this at one of those breaking through luncheons where the Mayor from the Arkansas one spoke. Was kind of surprised by the Mayor's position on this and I don't think most Seniors are aware of that. Article mentioned higher fees or some sort of arrangement with the Y.
I don't recall the mayor being definitive about the cost at all.


Which brings up an interesting question, aren't there Y's and gyms etc that have the exercise elements that these are going to have? Not exclusively for Seniors but programs/classes targeted for them? Don't Community Centers already exist? Think some have been closed because of funding problems (for operations), and if that is the case it doesn't bode well for new ones either. They are going to have to pay for operations somehow. As the Senior Demographic rises, private industry will step in naturally and fill any void that exists?
I'm not aware that anything along the magnitude of the N Little Rock example exists in this city. You already know my answer to Q#2 - how the heck would I know?


By the way, recently realized that by the time these are built (about 4 or 5 years) I will qualify if the 50 year mark is used as in the Arkansas example. Ah, the joys have getting older.
Other than the fact that one is alive, it ain't worth the pool.

Fritter, YTM latest add states and you obviously believe that our opposition to m3 is because we want a better contract. In case you haven't heard, the contracts were already settled before this all started. So when I see a tv commercial that says this opposition is based solely on contract negotiations (that have already been completed) I call it what it is. A BIG FAT LIE!

FG

Lump is right on this. We had already settled this issue prior to the formal opposition to MIII, in what were to be good faith negotiations by means endorsed by the city and infact bound in contract. The city decided to act in bad faith.

This is an issue that cannot be stressed enough, for whatever reason you choose to vote Yes, do not let this be one, it is essentially a mistruth propagated by campaign strategy.

It is this continued issuance of the image of greedy unions and bullies that is fuelling the flames that burn so rich on the No side. It is really not our intent to hold this city back. It is our intent to educate this city that the state of their PS is in peril, that perhaps a vote for luxuries is advancing "a core" that is rotten in its middle. This is a huge topic I would think, and a true representation of our message.

As an act of diplomacy can we just agree that this is Yes rhetoric. Please don't get the impression that I claim that strategic rhetoric has no place in the NO side, every campaign has its share.

This could be the most frustrating and potentially destructive issue as it relates to the ballot and PS's relationship to its public. Can't we just let this one go?

I think it should have never been started to begin with. Again, fix the poor organization of the fire department and EMSA and they might need no more employees. I'm having trouble with the "in peril" part of your statement when we're blithely sending an entire staffed fire truck out to anyone who calls 911, followed by 2 EMSA employees. It would have been far better to simply be neutral on MAPS, and continue to educate the populace about what your needs are, to accept the city's offer with the use tax, while stating that it is a temporary and partial fix and that further negotiations are needed.

Your battle was always with the mayor and the city council, and by opposing MAPS so vociferously, you took it to the public. If it doesn't pass, because your opposition was the one that received media attention (your union leaders seeking media attention being part of the reason), you are the ones that will receive the fallout, and there undoutedly will be some. It's rather late to say, "Can't we all just be friends?"

Now, if MAPS passes, I suspect there will be short memories on the part of most citizens, although I certainly can't speak for the mayor and city council. But, if it doesn't, I don't think this will all go away quietly. That's why I always thought public opposition was a lose-lose situation for you.

... Can't we just let this one go?

I suspect that the rancor brought out by Public Safety, together with the missives that indicated everyone would play nice on maps3 if the city did what, or mostly what, the unions wished, will not go away quietly.

On the one hand, some of the folks who were told pay more attention to the unions, or else, have elections coming up and they will stay geared for a campaign challenge. On the other, some of the loudest NTM folks will be angry over the public defeat and will shift gears toward trying to unseat them what done them wrong, in their eyes.

Yes, I am presuming passage, though a tight race with small spread in favor of YES, I still think it will be 52-48, at minimum, in favor of MAPs passing.

I'd love to see everyone shake hands on the 9th and sit down in peaceful tones and move forward, but I suspect the odds are 1 hair above nil.

Pity, but rancor will likely continue, in both directions. With the absolute y'all be wrong approach taken by the NTM crowd, I suspect even those more sheeple than people won't forget, or forgive, all that easily.

Bigger issue, to me anyway, if how to regain the public's support after basically telling them they are fools to even be considering this MAPs.

I wonder how much thought the NTM crowd has given to the prospects of YES votes prevailing, and those who get campaigned against also prevailing in the spring elections, not to mention some of the vocal noise to try and unseat the local DA.

NTM may have bitten off way more than it meant to beyond the 12/8 vote, and one of its more public voices, ala Shannon, can't exactly be counted on to advocate higher taxes for any issues facing public safety.

But, all that aside, good luck with the bridge building. it will need to take place.

I suspect that the rancor brought out by Public Safety, together with the missives that indicated everyone would play nice on maps3 if the city did what, or mostly what, the unions wished, will not go away quietly.

On the one hand, some of the folks who were told pay more attention to the unions, or else, have elections coming up and they will stay geared for a campaign challenge. On the other, some of the loudest NTM folks will be angry over the public defeat and will shift gears toward trying to unseat them what done them wrong, in their eyes.

Yes, I am presuming passage, though a tight race with small spread in favor of YES, I still think it will be 52-48, at minimum, in favor of MAPs passing.

I'd love to see everyone shake hands on the 9th and sit down in peaceful tones and move forward, but I suspect the odds are 1 hair above nil.

Pity, but rancor will likely continue, in both directions. With the absolute y'all be wrong approach taken by the NTM crowd, I suspect even those more sheeple than people won't forget, or forgive, all that easily.

Bigger issue, to me anyway, if how to regain the public's support after basically telling them they are fools to even be considering this MAPs.

I wonder how much thought the NTM crowd has given to the prospects of YES votes prevailing, and those who get campaigned against also prevailing in the spring elections, not to mention some of the vocal noise to try and unseat the local DA.

NTM may have bitten off way more than it meant to beyond the 12/8 vote, and one of its more public voices, ala Shannon, can't exactly be counted on to advocate higher taxes for any issues facing public safety.

But, all that aside, good luck with the bridge building. it will need to take place.


My friend, we will still be needed. Our work speaks volumes. Before, during, and after the vote is cast, we'll still be toned out.

I think that a fool would cast a vote that went contrary to their beliefs, I shouldn't think anyone on here one of those, and that has never been the NTM position.

My friend, we will still be needed. Our work speaks volumes. Before, during, and after the vote is cast, we'll still be toned out.

I think that a fool would cast a vote that went contrary to their beliefs, I shouldn't think anyone on here one of those, and that has never been the NTM position.

My friends and family have declared that due to the scorched-earth anti-MAPS approach of the NOsers, they will not support future pay and personnel increases for police and fire.

Sooner

It will be fairly hard to breath without a nose. Unless mouthbreathing already suits you.

Sooner

It will be fairly hard to breath without a nose. Unless mouthbreathing already suits you.

Thank you. I can "breath" quite normally, and since I'm not a NOser, it's no problem for me. But again, thank you for your concern.

From what I've observed, the NOsers are leading in the mouthbreathing and colored-neck categories.

:tiphat:

Ok, now THAT was funny!

It really was. Even the union folk can appreciate the humor.

I can see both sides.