View Full Version : Divorce: is it a sin?



Patrick
02-10-2005, 12:22 AM
Continuing the trend that was started, what do you guys think about this? Is divorce a sin?

Rev. Bob
02-10-2005, 01:22 AM
I think the Bible is pretty clear on this:

Malachi Chapter 2:

15 Has not the LORD made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his. And why one? Because he was seeking godly offspring. [a] So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith with the wife of your youth.

16 "I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself [b] with violence as well as with his garment," says the LORD Almighty.

So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.


Matthew 19:

3Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

4“Haven't you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[b]? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”

7“Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

8Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.”


1 Cointhians 7:

10To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

Jay
02-10-2005, 01:32 AM
Probably what contributes most to are divorce rate is people rarely get married anymore because they love each other and know each other inside and out. People get married because of an oops situation or just because it sounds like a good idea.

mranderson
02-10-2005, 08:31 AM
It depends on why.

If someone says directly or indirectly "This is no fun anymore and I want out," then yes. This is a copout. They are not willing to try.

While dating, he is a gentleman, never breaks wind in front of her, hair perfectly combed, smells great, never hogged the remote, watched her soaps instead of cussing out the opposing team. She looked like Heather Locklear instead of Roseanne Barr, cooked his meals, worshiped him always, called to say I love you at random, put the toilet seat down for him.


THEN! Marriage vow. They both get a bit bossy, he breaks wind and belches while he is unshaven for three days without a shower, all while watching sports with the remote in hand. She is in curlers out of makeup, burns his food, and argues the remote while telling him to put the seat down, take out the garbage and the dog AT THE SAME TIME, calls to tell him to bring home milk from the market.

So, it is no fun anymore. It is now reality. So, divorce city.

If they beat each other while with their affair and booze, then no. A divorce is not sinful.

Patrick
02-10-2005, 10:42 AM
I'd probably say divorce is okay for situations involving adultery and abuse (although the Bible doesn't really reference the latter). Otherwise, it's debateable. Even if it's a sin, some marriages are probably better off dissolving in the long run. I know a couple...the guy is a real loser and jerk...I've always thought she'd be better leaving him. He hasn't held down in years, and he refuses to get help with his serious alcohol problem. Actually, the lady finally left him. It was the best thing that ever happened to her. So, in this case divorce was probably the best option.

I think you just have to look at the entire picture.

There's a fine line there between what's an appropriate divorce, and what's not.

As mranderson says though, a marriage shouldn't be dissolved jsut because the couple isn't having "fun" anymore. That's no valid reason to divorce.

Midtowner
02-10-2005, 10:57 AM
I think the Bible is pretty clear on this:

Malachi Chapter 2:

15 Has not the LORD made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his. And why one? Because he was seeking godly offspring. [a] So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith with the wife of your youth.

16 "I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself [b] with violence as well as with his garment," says the LORD Almighty.

So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.


Matthew 19:

3Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

4“Haven't you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[b]? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”

7“Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

8Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.”


1 Cointhians 7:

10To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.


Hey Rev... I'll give you two real-life situations. Both involve Christians who are also my clients.

One has a hubbie who abuses drugs (cocain among them) as well as her. She is a professional, has a good job and a good career. She is a devout Christian and came to us seeking a divorce. Her pastor forbade her to pursue her divorce. Instead, she waited 6 months (at his suggestion) and went back to her abusive husband. I pray that he doesn't kill her.

Another of our clients was in a similar situation. Her pastor told her to get away from her drug abusing husband that beat her and her child (who has some kind of serious illness). She did, but her pastor told her tha she could not divorce her husband, because that would be sinful. She's been in limbo on this divorce now for 3 years. She feels like she can't do it because it's not he will of God.

Is it the will of God that wives whose husbands beat them and their children up, and take financial and physical advantage of them not get divorced? Please clarify this...

Floating_adrift
02-10-2005, 02:01 PM
All a part of God's plan. Our little minds could never comprehend His reasons. Just obey.

El Gato Pollo Loco!!!
02-10-2005, 02:06 PM
...One has a hubbie who abuses drugs (cocain among them) as well as her. She is a professional, has a good job and a good career. She is a devout Christian and came to us seeking a divorce. Her pastor forbade her to pursue her divorce. Instead, she waited 6 months (at his suggestion) and went back to her abusive husband. I pray that he doesn't kill her.

Another of our clients was in a similar situation. Her pastor told her to get away from her drug abusing husband that beat her and her child (who has some kind of serious illness). She did, but her pastor told her tha she could not divorce her husband, because that would be sinful. She's been in limbo on this divorce now for 3 years. She feels like she can't do it because it's not he will of God...
To be honest, it sounds like these women not only need divorces, but restraining orders as well...


...Is it the will of God that wives whose husbands beat them and their children up, and take financial and physical advantage of them not get divorced? Please clarify this...And no, it's not God's will that this should happen...

The thing is that people have a sinful nature. We all sin, no matter how "good" we try to be. There are quite a few Christians that I know that have been divorced and have remarried. To be honest, I would have told these ladies that they should get divorced, but to pray about it before finalizing any decision, because ultimately it would have to be their decision.

Midtowner
02-10-2005, 03:04 PM
To be honest, it sounds like these women not only need divorces, but restraining orders as well...

And no, it's not God's will that this should happen...

The thing is that people have a sinful nature. We all sin, no matter how "good" we try to be. There are quite a few Christians that I know that have been divorced and have remarried. To be honest, I would have told these ladies that they should get divorced, but to pray about it before finalizing any decision, because ultimately it would have to be their decision.

I wasn't really asking the question. I was just painting the picture of how absolutely idiotic it is to paint this as something that's black and white, wrong or right.

El Gato Pollo Loco!!!
02-10-2005, 04:18 PM
Oh sorry...But you are right, it is silly to paint everything black and white....

Keith
02-10-2005, 04:30 PM
Is it the will of God that wives whose husbands beat them and their children up, and take financial and physical advantage of them not get divorced? Please clarify this...

Gee, that looks like a question to me.....:headscrat . I could answer that question, but you would not like my answer.:D

Midtowner
02-10-2005, 04:32 PM
Gee, that looks like a question to me.....:headscrat . I could answer that question, but you would not like my answer.:D

Well, it's what they call a "rhetorical question". But if you want to answer it, feel free.

Just FYI:

rhetorical question
n.

A question to which no answer is expected, often used for rhetorical effect.

Keith
02-10-2005, 04:48 PM
Gee, now I gotta read your mind to figure out if your being rhetorical or if you really want to know something.:LolLolLol

Midtowner
02-10-2005, 05:39 PM
Gee, now I gotta read your mind to figure out if your being rhetorical or if you really want to know something.:LolLolLol

Are you going to answer the question or inflate your post count?

El Gato Pollo Loco!!!
02-10-2005, 05:41 PM
Are you going to answer the question or inflate your post count?can't I just inflate my post count?

Keith
02-10-2005, 05:54 PM
I just want to inflate my post count.:LolLolLol

Rev. Bob
02-11-2005, 01:06 AM
Is it the will of God that wives whose husbands beat them and their children up, and take financial and physical advantage of them not get divorced? Please clarify this...

The Bible doesn't really go into as much detail on the exceptions as I think it needs to. It only mentions adultery as a valid reason for divorce. But, when I preach on the subject of divorce, I usually include my own advice. I typically include abuse as a valid reason for divorce.

If I were the lady's preacher, I'd personally recommend that she leave the man, get a divorce, and get a restraining order. She shouldn't have to put up with that.

I think pastors that would advise against a divorce are not reading into God's overall purpose behind His statements on divorce. From my interpretation, I'd say the Bible is referring more to the types of divorces mranderson referred to: when a couple decides to get a divorce because the relationship isn't fun anymore, or it isn't satisfying!

I doubt God would have a problem with divorce if a domestic disturbance were involved.

Again, it's one of those issues the Bible really doesn't go in depth on. So you have to read between the lines and use your common sense a little.

Unfortunately, some pastors take the Bible too literally, and miss the overall point the text is trying to make.

nurfe75
02-13-2005, 02:33 AM
I find it interesting that those who preach the absolute immorality of something like homosexuality so easily twist the words of the bible when it involves an issue from their own lives.

Guys, the bible is pretty specific that you should not divorce. And if you DO divorce, it is even more specific that you should never remarry unless it is to your original spouse. Furthermore, unlike the views on--say homosexuality, for example--Jesus himself was the one who preached against divorce.

What's good for the goose must be good for the gander, right? Stop being hypocrits.

mranderson
02-13-2005, 06:51 AM
I find it interesting that those who preach the absolute immorality of something like homosexuality so easily twist the words of the bible when it involves an issue from their own lives.

Guys, the bible is pretty specific that you should not divorce. And if you DO divorce, it is even more specific that you should never remarry unless it is to your original spouse. Furthermore, unlike the views on--say homosexuality, for example--Jesus himself was the one who preached against divorce.

What's good for the goose must be good for the gander, right? Stop being hypocrits.

So, what you are saying is, if some goon beats his wife so severe, it looks like her face went through a meat grinder, she should not divorce him because divorce is a sin? Then if she does divorce him and wnts to remarry, it should be to him?

Midtowner
02-13-2005, 09:58 AM
The Bible doesn't really go into as much detail on the exceptions as I think it needs to. It only mentions adultery as a valid reason for divorce. But, when I preach on the subject of divorce, I usually include my own advice. I typically include abuse as a valid reason for divorce.

If I were the lady's preacher, I'd personally recommend that she leave the man, get a divorce, and get a restraining order. She shouldn't have to put up with that.

I think pastors that would advise against a divorce are not reading into God's overall purpose behind His statements on divorce. From my interpretation, I'd say the Bible is referring more to the types of divorces mranderson referred to: when a couple decides to get a divorce because the relationship isn't fun anymore, or it isn't satisfying!

I doubt God would have a problem with divorce if a domestic disturbance were involved.

Again, it's one of those issues the Bible really doesn't go in depth on. So you have to read between the lines and use your common sense a little.

Unfortunately, some pastors take the Bible too literally, and miss the overall point the text is trying to make.

It seems to me that the entire point of the new testament, if you condense it to its very root meaning, the text simply suggests that we love eachother -- something I've heard referred to as the "Supreme Commandment". I feel like I can confidently face my maker so long as I do that.

I find that fundamentalism ignores the base intent of the NT, and instead favors an almost arbitrary interpretation of the scriptures that is supposed to be more concrete/defined. Falwell and company, many would argue they preach hatred instead of love. I really think they miss the point where the true cause of Christianity is concerned.

Those WWJD bracelets crack me up... but really, it's a pretty good message.

What would Jesus do?

Would Jesus command an abused woman to stay with her abusive husband?

Would Jesus tell gays that they're going to hell for their "lifestyle"?

I think not.

nurfe75
02-13-2005, 12:32 PM
No, Mr. Anderson. My point is that the bible is not an absolute, infallible, or perfect guide for how we live our lives. Of course I don't believe a woman should stay married to an abusive husband. I believe divorce is simply a fact of life. Neither moral nor immoral.

My point (since you again missed it, as usual) is that you guys who use the bible to declare homosexuality so "obviously immoral" have no reason to pick and choose what you read from the bible. If you believe the bible is perfect and absolute when you read it to justify your dislike of gays, then you must also understand that it is just as specific about divorce.

If you make certain justifications for divorce that are outside the realm of what the bible clearly says, there is no reason you can't be similarly open minded about a monogomous and loving adult gay relationship.

Floating_adrift
02-13-2005, 12:37 PM
Perhaps God put the woman in the abusive situation to test her faith? The story of Job comes to mind.

It's interesting to see how each and every person interprets the word of God in their own manner. And nearly always to their own benefit and convenience. On one hand, certain things are to the letter of the bible, yet on the other hand you need to 'read between the lines' or 'not bother with the details'.

How, if you don't follow to the letter the very book you call the word of God, can you ever call yourselves faithful to Him and His Word?

Why would God leave it to us to read between the lines? We are supposed to be fallible, right? Are our interpretations divined by Him? Possibly. But if that were the case, how could each and every human being divine different interpretations.

I realize you are trying to look at the bible's 'big picture', but what good is the big picture if you rewrite the story as you see fit - or as it fits in todays society? If His word isn't timeless then what is it? Some people (midtowner ;) ) believe the bible has been diluted by man through the ages. Don't you think that today's bible is exactly what God would have wanted us to have? If not, then perhaps He isn't as involved as many people think...

I hope some of you respond, I know this isn't quite on topic, but it seems to pertain to all of the 'is it a sin' topics - or any question about the bible that leads to some 'today's society' interpretation of the bible.

It's fascinating.

nurfe75
02-13-2005, 12:50 PM
Okay, floating adrift. I can respect what you're saying. At least you're not one of those hypocrites who uses the bible to justify why he thinks homosexuality is sick, but then ignores what the bible says about his own 3rd marriage.

The problem with this view that the bible is an infallible and perfect guide for our life is that it makes very specific commandments on a LOT of issues even the most fundamentalist of Christians completely ignore. If you believe--hook, line, and sinker--every word of what the bible preaches, then you MUST believe the following:

1) Anyone who curses his father should be put do death
2) A woman should not speak in church; she should be kept silent.
3) A woman should not show the glory of her hair to anyone but her husband (that means woman should keep their hair covered when they're outside their homes).
4) You can't eat pork.
5) You can't wear clothes made of mixed fabric.
6) When a woman is menstruating, she should leave the city while "she is in her sickness."
7) Slavery is okay.

I could go on and on. Half of this stuff is even in the NEW Testament. There is no such thing as a true fundamentalist. We all pick and choose what applies to our lives and what doesn't. Time to face up to it.

nurfe75
02-13-2005, 12:55 PM
The answer to your question "why would God leave us to read between the lines?" is very simple. God gave us a free will. He also put all of us on different paths in life. He also commanded us to not judge the spec in our brother's eye when we have a plank in our own. We all have an inner light within us which connects us to the divine creator. It is no one's place to judge the relationship I have with my God.

Floating_adrift
02-13-2005, 01:03 PM
Exactly why I 'currently' see religion - all religion - as a man made construct. I like to study it, more for the sociological aspect, but also in the hopes that one day I could possibly believe in it myself. I don't 'not' believe in it is the best way I can describe my take on it. My family says that my view on it and willingness to discuss it with an open mind is due to the fact that God has a plan for me and that I'm here to bring up valid points to get people to think more critically about their faith - as it pertains to my discussions with my family as it were. I respect everyone for their faith and I'm always interested in talking with others about it.

1adam12
02-13-2005, 01:49 PM
How did we go from discussing divorce to discussing homosexuality again? Oh yeah, nurfe joined in the discussion. Your posts, nurfe, tend to make me think that you are a very angry, negative, person, and if others don't agree with you, then they are wrong. Lighten up, and let's STAY on the subject of divorce.

nurfe75
02-13-2005, 02:06 PM
I was on the subject of divorce. But once again you IGNORE everything I say and go on the personal attack. I am simply stating that if you believe the bible to be an absolute, then you CAN'T justify divorce. The homosexuality issue is just a good illustration of that.

If you can't actually add to the discussion then go to another thread. Over and over and over I make good, well thought out points and you guys simply dismiss them.

It makes it obvious you don't have any point to make.

nurfe75
02-13-2005, 02:07 PM
And please point to the direct evidence that my posts are negative and angry. You're the one going on the defensive, dude.

mranderson
02-13-2005, 02:08 PM
I was on the subject of divorce. But once again you IGNORE everything I say and go on the personal attack. I am simply stating that if you believe the bible to be an absolute, then you CAN'T justify divorce. The homosexuality issue is just a good illustration of that.

If you can't actually add to the discussion then go to another thread. Over and over and over I make good, well thought out points and you guys simply dismiss them.

It makes it obvious you don't have any point to make.

With the lifestyle choices you have made with your life, what makes you qualified to speak about divorce between man and woman?

nurfe75
02-13-2005, 02:10 PM
I've obviously hit a nerve, here. You guys want to go out of your way to attack other people's sins, but when it comes to a sin YOU'VE committed, you're quick to justify it. There is nothing Christian about that.

nurfe75
02-13-2005, 02:17 PM
I'm going to say this one last time. Then I'm leaving this posting board completely. There is nothing Christian about the way any of you are behaving. Mr. Anderson: I don't think you're even making an attempt to see the point I've made--which is that NO ONE is qualified to speak about ANYONE elses sins. That is between someone and his or her God. Guys like you want to go on and on about the sins of others (such as how sick homosexuality is) but then you go out of your way to justify your own sins--even if the reasoning is outside the realm of what the bible actually says. The bible is just as clear on divorce as it is on homosexuality. You can't use the bible to declare a moral absolute on homosexuality but then ignore what it says on divorce. Its pretty much a package deal. Got it? You want to think homosexuals are all a bunch of godless sickos? Fine. But then you also have to understand that the bible clearly states ANYONE married to anyone other than their original spouse is committing adultury. God--according to your fundamentalist view of the bible--DOES NOT recognize 2nd and 3rd marriages. Stop thinking you're superior and that you have the right to rain down judgment on other people. Your attitudes disgust me.

mranderson
02-13-2005, 02:19 PM
Here is my reply.


:backtotop

nurfe75
02-13-2005, 02:22 PM
No, Your reply is this:

"Nyah nyah nyah nyah--I'm not listening I'm not listening I'm not listening." Are you 5?

You're simply ignoring the valid point that your own mistakes in life are just as sinful as anyone else's.

Underling
02-14-2005, 08:48 AM
Simple point folks, if you believe in the bible as the inerrant word of God, the furthest you can go with divorce is that God will allow it in the case of spousal infidelity. However, once divorced, if you choose to remarry anyone other than your original spouse then you are living a life of fornication and sin. A life that you made the choice to live in.

If you Divorce for a reason other than what Jesus stated was allowable, you are a sinner and any relationship you engage in will be fornication.

Once you are divorced, it would appear, based on what Jesus himself had to say, it is your spiritual duty to remain single and celibate.

If you want to justify divorce under any other circumstance, please, offer me a scriptural passage to support it.

Divorce is wrong folks. Plain and simple, state as clear as could be in the "words of Christ."

mranderson
02-14-2005, 08:59 AM
Simple point folks, if you believe in the bible as the inerrant word of God, the furthest you can go with divorce is that God will allow it in the case of spousal infidelity. However, once divorced, if you choose to remarry anyone other than your original spouse then you are living a life of fornication and sin. A life that you made the choice to live in.

If you Divorce for a reason other than what Jesus stated was allowable, you are a sinner and any relationship you engage in will be fornication.

Once you are divorced, it would appear, based on what Jesus himself had to say, it is your spiritual duty to remain single and celibate.

If you want to justify divorce under any other circumstance, please, offer me a scriptural passage to support it.

Divorce is wrong folks. Plain and simple, state as clear as could be in the "words of Christ."

Underling: I will pose to you the same question I posed a couple of days ago. If you think divorce is a sin no matter what (The impression I get from your post) then if a goon beats his wife so bad she looks like he put her face though a meat grinder, then should she stay married to him because divorce is a sin?

Midtowner
02-14-2005, 09:01 AM
Simple point folks, if you believe in the bible as the inerrant word of God, the furthest you can go with divorce is that God will allow it in the case of spousal infidelity. However, once divorced, if you choose to remarry anyone other than your original spouse then you are living a life of fornication and sin. A life that you made the choice to live in.

If you Divorce for a reason other than what Jesus stated was allowable, you are a sinner and any relationship you engage in will be fornication.

Once you are divorced, it would appear, based on what Jesus himself had to say, it is your spiritual duty to remain single and celibate.

If you want to justify divorce under any other circumstance, please, offer me a scriptural passage to support it.

Divorce is wrong folks. Plain and simple, state as clear as could be in the "words of Christ."

Is your religion worshiping God, or is it worshiping the Bible?

Floating_adrift
02-14-2005, 09:31 AM
Is your religion worshiping God, or is it worshiping the Bible?

Worship God, just don't worship what He says?

Midtowner
02-14-2005, 09:34 AM
Worship God, just don't worship what He says?

Haven't we been down this? Any serious historical study of the Bible will show that it has been rewritten by Kings and Emporers at the very least 4 times.

It was apparently a wonderful tool to control and pacify a populace.

Remember, the first Bible was assembled under the supervision of Constantine. He wasn't even Christian until his deathed conversion near the end of his life.

Also, during the canonization process, many books that were just as worthy as those that were canonized were turned down for whatever reason because they contradicted things that the assemblers felt were true.

Why should we worship something made by man? The Bible is a not the end-all, be-all of the Christian religion. It's a part, but it's only a part.

It's foolish to study words in a book without understanding where those words came from.

Underling
02-14-2005, 09:43 AM
Midtowner: I was restating the point that if you want to buy into the bible as the inerrant word of god, then you have to follow all the rules. Not just the ones that don't apply to you anyway.

MrAnderson: Based on a strict reading of the text of the bible, which I know you all are fond of around here, based on other threads my answer is this: No, the woman who's husband beats her face to a pulp does not get to have a divorce. Do I think that is okay? Not really, but it's not my rule. Jesus was the one who said it, not me.

If you want to be more permissive of divorce you have to begin to accept that all biblical pronouncements are not a black and white matter. A woman who's husband beat her would have had no standing to get a divorce in biblical times. She would have had no legal standing, aside from the fact that she was basically little more than her husband's property.

Do I think a woman today who's husband beats her should have a divorce? Absolutely!

But I'm not one of the one's here who want to apply the bible in a strict rigid manner as it relates to modern life.

You, however, have taken up the cause of defending strict interpretation time and time again.

So, if you want to try and force others to adhere or agree to other scriptures, you're gonna have to deal with the fact that scripture does NOT give an out to a woman simply because she gets beaten up by her husband every now and then.

Floating_adrift
02-14-2005, 09:44 AM
The original was written by man as well. Doesn't matter who re-wrote it. If the omnipotent God didn't make sure that what we see today is a true representation of His word, then yeah, I suppose we can pick and choose what rules we want to adhere to. The scriptures that don't make sense to us in today's society were most likely the things that were re-written without God's consent, right?

Hey, just do whatever is most convenient.

Midtowner
02-14-2005, 09:47 AM
Midtowner: I was restating the point that if you want to buy into the bible as the inerrant word of god, then you have to follow all the rules. Not just the ones that don't apply to you anyway.

MrAnderson: Based on a strict reading of the text of the bible, which I know you all are fond of around here, based on other threads my answer is this: No, the woman who's husband beats her face to a pulp does not get to have a divorce. Do I think that is okay? Not really, but it's not my rule. Jesus was the one who said it, not me.

If you want to be more permissive of divorce you have to begin to accept that all biblical pronouncements are not a black and white matter. A woman who's husband beat her would have had no standing to get a divorce in biblical times. She would have had no legal standing, aside from the fact that she was basically little more than her husband's property.

Do I think a woman today who's husband beats her should have a divorce? Absolutely!

But I'm not one of the one's here who want to apply the bible in a strict rigid manner as it relates to modern life.

You, however, have taken up the cause of defending strict interpretation time and time again.

So, if you want to try and force others to adhere or agree to other scriptures, you're gonna have to deal with the fact that scripture does NOT give an out to a woman simply because she gets beaten up by her husband every now and then.

Sorry for misinterpreting the context of your post.

I do, however agree with your second point!

It disgusts me that "fundamentalists" make the claim that their religion is 100% based on the Bible. Even so, they take some parts too far, and ignore others completely! There is a point at which religion becomes an ugly and evil thing. Fundamentalists who selectively follow the Bible and claim to uphold it are liars to themselves and to others.

In trying to uphold what they think is "good", they don't seem to be bothered by the fact that their interpretation has no solid logic or historical evidence behind it. It almost smacks of a preacher "controlling" his flock and their thoughts/mindsets than helping them to understand the mysteries that religion seeks to explain.

Midtowner
02-14-2005, 09:49 AM
The original was written by man as well. Doesn't matter who re-wrote it. If the omnipotent God didn't make sure that what we see today is a true representation of His word, then yeah, I suppose we can pick and choose what rules we want to adhere to. The scriptures that don't make sense to us in today's society were most likely the things that were re-written without God's consent, right?

Hey, just do whatever is most convenient.

Well, you see the point hammered constantly that the Bible was "divinely inspired" (debatable), I believe it was men writing about things they had seen.

Even if it was indeed divinely inspired, it doesn't matter a bit. The rewriting and corruption over the centuries has left us with a shell of the original. Is it something that we should still consider as worthy of being read for its historical value? Yes.

Is it something that should be worshipped and venerated? No.

Floating_adrift
02-14-2005, 09:58 AM
If not divinely inspired, then it's just another story made up by man, in the same way the nordic, greek, egyptian, etc mythologies were. All of which are the same thing - do good and believe and you will live a peaceful eternity, do wrong and do not believe and live in an eternal hell. Which could lead one to the idea that God does not exist except for what we have created in our mind.

If it was divinely inspired, then it surely would have been that way through each re-writing. Unless He just chose to let his word get corrupted...

Midtowner
02-14-2005, 11:14 AM
If not divinely inspired, then it's just another story made up by man, in the same way the nordic, greek, egyptian, etc mythologies were. All of which are the same thing - do good and believe and you will live a peaceful eternity, do wrong and do not believe and live in an eternal hell. Which could lead one to the idea that God does not exist except for what we have created in our mind.

If it was divinely inspired, then it surely would have been that way through each re-writing. Unless He just chose to let his word get corrupted...

Well, it has been shown that the rewritings as well as the original canonization produced very different results than what could be found in the original text/what was left out.

If it was divinely inspired, why would it have to continue to be that way each time? If the suggestion is that each revision was also divinely inspired, it sounds a lot like someone who is trying to change the facts to prove the truth of something.

Keith
02-14-2005, 12:33 PM
Guys, you are beating a dead horse. We have been down this road before, so let's get back to the subject of divorce. There is another thread that debates the Bible, so if you want to continue the debate, follow the link below.

http://www.okctalk.com/t776-what-does-the-bible-really-say.html

Midtowner
02-14-2005, 12:36 PM
Guys, you are beating a dead horse. We have been down this road before, so let's get back to the subject of divorce. There is another thread that debates the Bible, so if you want to continue the debate, you can find the thread.

I disagree.

The discussion cuts to the heart of the issue. Do we in fact have the ability to sit here and say that it's a sin or not a sin just because of what some book written and rewritten many times throughout history says? Please, if you disagree, simply state so, do not attempt to censor the conversation simply because you disagree.

Someone brought up the point as to whether it was a sin or not, we think it's valid to debate whether the question can be asked at all.

mistipetal
02-14-2005, 12:42 PM
Well, I'd actually left the board, (yeah, i can hear you guys cheering out there) I came back because I was directed to this thread. I'd like to start with, I'm divorced and have not married or been involved since said divorce,( for his adultery among other things) so I'm a lot more "Christian" that some of you multiple marriage sorts. so..nyah, nyah ,nyah. That being said...the fact is, the bible was written by men. For men. Controlled by rulers of men. Just look at the way people here pick and choose which parts of the bible are for real, you think that thru the ages it's been different? If it's divinely inspired, is the lesbian bible, where all characters have become women divinely inspired? If not, why not? It's the word of god, just names changed. It comes from on high right? It ought to be as valid as the King James version. And note that name folks. KING JAMES VERSION. As in different from the original. I'm not like some of the people here who can argue bible verse. I've read and studied parts of the bible. But I'm not an expert on the bible. I don't care enough to be.

I'm against forms of organized religion. That's my personal belief. I'm right with my god. I don't hurt others, I don't whore around, I treat my child with care and love, I keep to myself. I flat out refuse to believe in any god who thinks that loving and living a good life isn't enough to reward you. I can't see someone like my grandmother, who was as perfect and loving being as I've ever known and a christian, be denied heaven. Likewise, I'm not so closed minded that I believe that there are not wonderful people of other religions, who are not christians, but live good lives. Should they be damned? I think not. I think "sins" are really all out of order anyway. Treat people with love and respect, that really ought to be what matters. And if god is all that, well then, what's to worry about?

Keith
02-14-2005, 03:44 PM
I disagree.

The discussion cuts to the heart of the issue. Do we in fact have the ability to sit here and say that it's a sin or not a sin just because of what some book written and rewritten many times throughout history says? Please, if you disagree, simply state so, do not attempt to censor the conversation simply because you disagree.

Someone brought up the point as to whether it was a sin or not, we think it's valid to debate whether the question can be asked at all.

You can disagree all you want to with my statement, however, many of your posts on this thread are basically stating that you believe the Bible is nothing but a historical book, written by man, yada yada yada, and all you do is repeat yourself. You have said it many, many, times in different posts, so, yes, you are basically beating a dead horse. I have not and will not censor anything (even if I disagree), if the debate is healthy, however, as I said, and I'll say it again for those who didn't catch it the first time, there is another thread that you can go to to discuss your different ideas about the Bible.

Ok, MidTowner, you gave your opinion, over and over again, so I know we all know where you stand, but give it a rest, and go on. If you have a problem with that, send me a PM. I think I only posted once on this subject because it is a personal issue for me, however, the debate is fine, you just need to stay on the subject, instead of beating the Bible debate to death.

And please, everybody, let's leave off the so..nyah, nyah ,nyah. Only children still say that. I would think that in 47 posts on this subject, that everyone knows where everyone else stands. Keep the debate going, just stay on the subject.

Midtowner
02-14-2005, 05:47 PM
You can disagree all you want to with my statement, however, many of your posts on this thread are basically stating that you believe the Bible is nothing but a historical book, written by man, yada yada yada, and all you do is repeat yourself. You have said it many, many, times in different posts, so, yes, you are basically beating a dead horse. I have not and will not censor anything (even if I disagree), if the debate is healthy, however, as I said, and I'll say it again for those who didn't catch it the first time, there is another thread that you can go to to discuss your different ideas about the Bible.

Ok, MidTowner, you gave your opinion, over and over again, so I know we all know where you stand, but give it a rest, and go on. If you have a problem with that, send me a PM. I think I only posted once on this subject because it is a personal issue for me, however, the debate is fine, you just need to stay on the subject, instead of beating the Bible debate to death.

And please, everybody, let's leave off the so..nyah, nyah ,nyah. Only children still say that. I would think that in 47 posts on this subject, that everyone knows where everyone else stands. Keep the debate going, just stay on the subject.

A debate is a series of statements and counters. My point stands and is just as valid the 20th time as it was the first time. It's not like I'm cross posting or cutting and pasting.

Again, I will say it is on subject. We can debate that issue also if you want to, of course, that would be a case of you taking this thread completely off the subject.

How am I supposed to "debate" the subject if I limit myself to speaking new truths and facts every time I respond to someone else's remarks?

dkaye2005
02-14-2005, 06:38 PM
Just about everyone at one time in their lives have sinned, not becuse they had to, but because they wanted to.
To divorce someone that has changed drastically since you married, such as physical abuse, drug/alcohol abuse, refusing to assist with family finances when they are in perfect physical condition to work, not considering themselves as married (emotional abuse) is an excusable sin to me. Times have changed since the Bible was written, if not, we should be able to just tie them up and stone them to death without any legal repercusions. All these things really sounds like sins to me, so if the other allows it to continue, they teach their children that it's okay. Let's be honest, which one do you want your children to learn. Would you want your beautiful little girl to grow up, end up in an abusive relationship of her own and because of the Bible and what you may think of her, and stay with that person. You never know, the person she ends up with could be far more evil than what you had experienced and endured. A person that stays in an abusive relationship for the will of God, will grow bitter toward God and that too will bleed to the minds of the children.

I belive that God gave us a mind to think for ourselves, we can use this for good or evil, Jesus gave us that choice. God made everyone special, what you become in the course of your life, you decide. Sometimes in the course of our lives, I do believe we are tested, but I don't believe that all the answers are within one single book, there's alot there to get you started, the rest are tests that you can't find in ANY book, there within ourselves.

I know that divorce should be a last resort by any means and if it comes to a divorce, you should know that God is good and wants you to do what's right....
VEGGIE TALES 101 !!!!

Keith
02-14-2005, 08:41 PM
How am I supposed to "debate" the subject if I limit myself to speaking new truths and facts every time I respond to someone else's remarks?

You aren't speaking "new" truths, you are giving an opinion that you repeat over and over again. I am not going to debate a debate just to boost your ego. Again, I repeat, "I'll say it again for those who didn't catch it the first time, there is another thread that you can go to to discuss your different ideas about the Bible."

I really don't want to close this thread just because of one posters' refusal to stay with the topic at hand.

Midtowner
02-14-2005, 08:49 PM
You aren't speaking "new" truths, you are giving an opinion that you repeat over and over again. I am not going to debate a debate just to boost your ego. Again, I repeat, "I'll say it again for those who didn't catch it the first time, there is another thread that you can go to to discuss your different ideas about the Bible."

I really don't want to close this thread just because of one posters' refusal to stay with the topic at hand.

Hey, then quit using the Bible to say it's a sin.. Then, I can stop saying that the Bible isn't an authorative force.. there will be no quarrel, so you might as well lock the thread!

If you want me to play that game, you have to play as well.

Otherwise, it just ain't any fun.

Keith
02-14-2005, 08:59 PM
Hey, then quit using the Bible to say it's a sin.. Then, I can stop saying that the Bible isn't an authorative force.. there will be no quarrel, so you might as well lock the thread!

If you want me to play that game, you have to play as well.

Otherwise, it just ain't any fun.

I'm not saying anything...you are the one who just won't let this go. Sorry, folks...sometimes it seems that some people just don't get it. This isn't a game. If you want to play games, there are plenty to play on the internet. I also realize that you think this forum is a joke, but there are people who are serious and sincere about what they post, and are tired of you belittling what they are saying.

Midtowner
02-15-2005, 11:07 AM
I'm not saying anything...you are the one who just won't let this go. Sorry, folks...sometimes it seems that some people just don't get it. This isn't a game. If you want to play games, there are plenty to play on the internet. I also realize that you think this forum is a joke, but there are people who are serious and sincere about what they post, and are tired of you belittling what they are saying.

Apparently you are saying that I am not sincere about what I post and just want to belittle people?

Well, if that's how you feel after I tell you that you're wrong, that's not my fault. I will not be responsible for your feelings.

I am serious and sincere in the belief that no man -- no human being can truly know what is and isn't sinful. We can't even know if sin exists. We can choose to believe it does, but there are no absolutes here. My point in bringing up the Bible over and over again is because undermining someone's only evidence is an excellent way to show that their claims are questionable. That is my tactic and my purpose.

I am sincere in what I say. I of course do not have a huge emotional stake in these things, I just argue the truth as I perceive it. That's part of any discussion. You don't have to agree with or like what I say, but I will continue to say it.

Patrick
02-15-2005, 11:13 AM
In my PM to you after I reopened the thread, I made the following comment.

"Hey guys, I went ahead and reopened the divorce thread. That doesn't really mean that we should go back to the same dispute that was going on though. "

I expected the 2nd portion of my PM to be heard. I guess it wasn't.

I think it's time to leave that dispute behind us and move on to bigger and better topics.

If the dispute continues, I may reverse my decision.