With the prospect of a world-class whitewater kayaking venue along the Oklahoma River should MAPS 3 pass next week, leaders of USA Canoe/Kayak announced Tuesday evening they will open an office in Oklahoma City. The group is the governing body for the sport in the United States and stages the U.S. Olympic trials. Joe Jacobi, executive director of USA Canoe/Kayak and a gold medalist in the Barcelona Olympics, said the office will open in January regardless of how the MAPS 3 vote turns out. Jacobi spoke at a rally supporting MAPS 3 at the Chesapeake Boathouse. MAPS 3 includes $60 million for improvements along the Oklahoma River. About $25 million of that would go toward building a whitewater course that could be used for recreation most of the year but also be capable of hosting Olympic-caliber events.

USA Canoe/Kayak held the sprint kayak Olympic trials on the Oklahoma River last year, but Oklahoma City has no venue capable of hosting slalom events, Jacobi said. "Never in the history of canoe/kayak have we had Olympic trials for both sprint and slalom in the same place,” Jacobi said. "That could happen here.”

Also at the MAPS 3 rally, Roy Williams, president of the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber, released the results of a study analyzing the economic impact of the proposed whitewater venue. A private consultant hired by the chamber determined the venue would have an average annual economic impact of $28.8 million, employing a full-time staff of about 48 people. In addition to the jobs at the venue itself, 230 jobs with a payroll of $5.3 million would be generated at other businesses.

Read more: NewsOK (http://www.newsok.com/usa-canoekayak-officials-discuss-oklahoma-citys-maps-3-project-proposal/article/3421919?custom_click=headlines_widget#ixzz0YXKvhWR 7)

is this one of the events when hundreds of the participants became sick because of the feces and bacteria in the river?
"Big League" City. :congrats:

That's interesting. Thanks for highlighting it.

Sorry, I think that was a swim where they got real sick. I think a few have sued the city. I guess I'll be paying for that too. That's where I want my kids to swim..in those white water rapids?!?! NOT!:fighting2

is this one of the events when hundreds of the participants became sick because of the feces and bacteria in the river?
"Big League" City. :congrats:

It's wonderful to see someone so positive about Oklahoma City in general, with so many excellent suggestions for how to improve our city. Does your name happen to be paul, and do you live in yukon? That's what I'm beginning to think.

I think the important message of this article is that they're estimating that the kayak course alone will create 278 jobs, and will pump $30 million into our economy annually. That has the potential to generate a lot of sales tax, 3/4 of a cent of which will go to our policemen and firemen. In a time of recession, isn't job creation one of the single best things we can do to help our citizens who are out of work? That's from one of the smaller of the planned proposals. A proposal that will solidify our place on the Olympic map.

How many jobs will be created if MAPS doesn't pass?

I think the important message of this article is that they're estimating that the kayak course alone will create 278 jobs, and will pump $30 million into our economy annually. That has the potential to generate a lot of sales tax, 3/4 of a cent of which will go to our policemen and firemen. In a time of recession, isn't job creation one of the single best things we can do to help our citizens who are out of work? That's from one of the smaller of the planned proposals. A proposal that will solidify our place on the Olympic map.

How many jobs will be created if MAPS doesn't pass?

That, of course, pretends that 278 jobs cost nothing to the city's budget, which is only true if the kayak course actually turns a profit, which at least at first, I doubt it will.

Let me ask you this. The Daily Republican who is pushing this TAX extension which is another interesting issue said that we've made over 5 BILLION dollars from MAPS. Where is the money? I mean they report everything that "TRUE". Where is the MONEY? Shouldn't we have a nice "Rainy Day" Fund.

Also, Is it true that SKIP Kelly on the council took a two week trip to Chicago a few weeks ago to see how big league cities do it? Didn't the trip cost 30,000 dollars?

Better yet we're going to spend I think it was $50,000 to $100,000 dollars for a SPACE STUDY. To tell our city how to rearrange a few desks at one of our buildings....

Then in less than two weeks we'll announce the lay off of 34 police officers and I think it was 40 plus fireman.

LOL

That, of course, pretends that 278 jobs cost nothing to the city's budget, which is only true if the kayak course actually turns a profit, which at least at first, I doubt it will.
Oh yea. All of my buddies can't wait to have their Son or Daughter take Kayak lessons and run right down there and Kayak. LOL. I heard they are pulling them out of soccer, football, basketball, Cheerleading and everything immediately.

Should be a real profit maker!!!!:congrats: Even Midtowner can see through the bull on that one.

Only 48 of the 278 estimated would be employed at the venue. There are other factors besides turning a profit, however. People may move here to train for the Olympics. They buy houses, pay property taxes and spend money. People may well travel here from other places to use the course. They stay in hotels and eat at our restaurants. We would undoubtedly stage events, as there are collegiate events and a kayak circuit for non olympians. It helps us with one more venue that makes OKC more of a destination for tourists.

Olympic folks would be renting, I would imagine. Let's build a fake mountain, with fake snow, put it in a huge structure...maybe spend $100-$200 million dollars and attract 20-40 olympic Snow boarders and skiers.

We could move the skating rink downtown there also and save a bunch of money.

That's cost effective and we would even be a bigger league city. We'd get folks to eat and sleep in OKC then. Think of how much money we would get from all of their eating and sleeping. And it will employ 26 people. NEW JOBS!

We'd be able to see if it was contaminated also. Alot easier than the river. If the snow is yellow. STAY AWAY!

Wow iron, you guys really can't see past the end of your nose huh? The folks got sick on the river because the stockyards had a company that was improperly containing their waste, and it got into the river. The problem has been fixed. It's a general corporate regulation problem....has nothing to do with OKC in general. Yeah it was bad PR, but I'm pretty sure that anyone involved in the that event understands what happened and isn't holding it against the city....since it wasn't their fault. Hell even firefighters burn down their own fire stations sometimes.

As for the jobs and income, these are people that come to OKC specifically for these events. One weekend of trials can almost pay the salaries of the folks working these events for the entire year. It's also hotels and meals that would otherwise NOT be here. Keep in mind that this type of event is just like a convention. It's not the dollars we'd make on a day to day basis that really fund the thing. Yes there would be a flow of locals that go to play around, but as a training course, you'll see more folks trickling in year round to do just that...train. It's an attraction as much as anything.

Hey, and guess what, that's tax dollars fed back into the city...and much like the Ford Center, would end up more than paying for itself. And don't even try and say that the Ford Center was a mistake because then I'll have 100% confirmation that you're simply speaking out of your rear.

VOTE YES ON MAPS!

Where is the money???? Where did it go?

How are we broke if we've made so much money?

has nothing to do with OKC in general.

It has everything to do with OKC. How does it not?

What have you done with all of the Money we've made and are making?

Yeah it was bad PR,
Yea...you think?

ut I'm pretty sure that anyone involved in the that event understands what happened and isn't holding it against the city..
Didn't some of them sue the city or NOT?

in less than two weeks we'll announce the lay off of 34 police officers and I think it was 40 plus fireman.

Yeah, if we don't pass MAPS, that'd probably be about right, since we won't need as many city services and we won't have the revenue to pay for it anyway as more people and jobs move to the suburbs than the city. You always have to make cuts when downsizing.

Sorry, I think that was a swim where they got real sick. I think a few have sued the city. I guess I'll be paying for that too. That's where I want my kids to swim..in those white water rapids?!?! NOT!:fighting2

Why do you even live here if you think its so bad? Go somewhere else where you can wallow in your own negative filth and leave the positive folks here to make OKC a better place. Geez, I bet your house is a fun place to be......

That, of course, pretends that 278 jobs cost nothing to the city's budget, which is only true if the kayak course actually turns a profit, which at least at first, I doubt it will.

don't know that the whitewater center will be in the black from year 1 .. but the comparable facility in Charlotte is self supporting

mug - i think the same thing. If it's so bad iron, then why are you here? Go elsewhere...where you aren't the new Tom Elmore.

I am wondering if the river contamination would be considered a public safety issue. Seems to me that had our public safety professionals been alert when cruising the city they might have picked up on it, but they would probably claim that it is not part of their job to look out for situations that would cause contamination. Perhaps this is a ridiculous premise, but it is not near as ridiculous as some of the BS that Iron throws out.

What have you done with all of the Money we've made and are making?

Wasn't there a rumor out there it went into a fund to cover the city's expenses related to arbitration hearings? Probably nothing to it, that's how many rumors are.

the suburbs are where the the new fire stations are supposed to go. You will think its great to have less fire unitl your family or frineds have a house burn up. did you wathc the news last night about the guy whose friends kid started a matress fire and the house was gone in 5 min. if we decrease staffing then the responsonse time will even be longer and more people will lose more stuff. but thats ok with you yes people becuase you are fortunate enough to have great insurance and have money to buy things back. you guys are forgetting the not so wealthy that has everything they own in one room. it may not cost lots buts it there stuff and they dont have the uinsurance or the money to replace. all so you guys can possibly have a sidewalk or a whitewater park. you guys are the selfish ones. you only think about the rihc and careless about the poor. got a fire station adn ride out with them on a poor part of town. see how the poor live. fire doesnt discriminate neither do the fd. but you people do. you are sick

If that house was gone in five minutes I doubt any fire department could have saved it, even if the station was located next door. Also, you are really reaching if you think every one for Maps3 is wealthly. There are some of us that just have vision for the future of our city.

Why do you even live here if you think its so bad? Go somewhere else where you can wallow in your own negative filth and leave the positive folks here to make OKC a better place. Geez, I bet your house is a fun place to be......

+1

It's almost like the dude wants the OKC of the 1970's back.

its whats inside the house that matter. if the picutres that can be saved, the blankets teh clothes. the majority of yes maps signs i see are 15th and walker area. way to wealthy for my blood. and from the oklahoman i make six digits. we know our newspaper dont lie.

Let me ask you this. The Daily Republican who is pushing this TAX extension which is another interesting issue said that we've made over 5 BILLION dollars from MAPS. Where is the money? I mean they report everything that "TRUE". Where is the MONEY? Shouldn't we have a nice "Rainy Day" Fund.

Also, Is it true that SKIP Kelly on the council took a two week trip to Chicago a few weeks ago to see how big league cities do it? Didn't the trip cost 30,000 dollars?

Better yet we're going to spend I think it was $50,000 to $100,000 dollars for a SPACE STUDY. To tell our city how to rearrange a few desks at one of our buildings....

Then in less than two weeks we'll announce the lay off of 34 police officers and I think it was 40 plus fireman.

LOL

You aren't even reading posts that people are putting a lot of time and thought into. You're just an anti-MAPS troll.

Until d*ck76hd posted on this thread, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he really was a concerned citizen, etc.

Nope...just a troll.

Honestly, if iron annoys you so much, makes no sense and has no good arguments, ignore him. That is what I did and it is better. I bet it is Paul from Yukon from newsok.

...Hey, and guess what, that's tax dollars fed back into the city...and much like the Ford Center, would end up more than paying for itself. ...

Exactly how has the Ford "more than pa[id] for itself"? If by that you mean it hasn't lost money for operating expenses, that is true. But we have hardly come close to getting back the $90M it cost to build or the $120M for the improvements. Under the terms of the Thunder lease, we won't get that money back for something like 200 years.

As asked before where are all of the "tax dollars fed back into the city"? The average yearly revenue HAS gone up (originally $60M or so under MAPS, now supposed to be $100M w/MAPS 3). Seems like that along with the Chamber's $5 billion (overstated) number, that this MAPS should have already been paid for. No need for this tax.

Exactly how has the Ford "more than pa[id] for itself"? If by that you mean it hasn't lost money for operating expenses, that is true. But we have hardly come close to getting back the $90M it cost to build or the $120M for the improvements. Under the terms of the Thunder lease, we won't get that money back for something like 200 years.

As asked before where are all of the "tax dollars fed back into the city"? The average yearly revenue HAS gone up (originally $60M or so under MAPS, now supposed to be $100M w/MAPS 3). Seems like that along with the Chamber's $5 billion (overstated) number, that this MAPS should have already been paid for. No need for this tax.

I don't want to put words into his mouth. But I think the Ford Center has more than paid for itself and it has nothing to do with money. In my opinion, having an NBA team in OKC is worth every penny we've put in the Ford Center.

Also, the $5 billion number from the orginal MAPS doesn't mean $5 billion straight into the city's bank account. Only a part of that would go back to the city in form of taxes. I guess I fail to see how the orginal MAPs should have paid for this one.

And yet you firemen are happy to make well over the city median family income and have enough free time to work a second job. Then you can retire when you're in your forties and have a second career while receiving a pension paid for by city taxes. Since your money is coming from sales taxes the poor are paying for your retirement, as are the rest of us. They might prefer a park and sidewalks if given the choice. Yes you put out fires, but it would be nice if you worked until 65 like the rest of us.

It's wonderful to see someone so positive about Oklahoma City in general, with so many excellent suggestions for how to improve our city. Does your name happen to be paul, and do you live in yukon? That's what I'm beginning to think.

LMFAO!!!

I know that idiot. He posts all the time on newsok. Particularly when the Sonics were moving here.

He hates this city with a passion, and says he is forced to live here for some reason.

What a clown.

I posted all the time under my real name, David on Newsok.com during the Sonics debate.

He was one of the unfortunate tools dogging on this city and state.

In anycase, this is good news. I worry about MAPS passing, but I gaurentee, those who are against it, will live to regret it in time, when we go nowhere.

I also can't wait to see how the city doesn't help the fire and police for their bitterness, and arrogance. They won't get that kind of money just to say yes on 12-8, I wonder how hard it will be to face a city they spit in the face of, should this not pass.

I love divine retribution.

....USA Canoe/Kayak held the sprint kayak Olympic trials on the Oklahoma River last year, but Oklahoma City has no venue capable of hosting slalom events, Jacobi said. "Never in the history of canoe/kayak have we had Olympic trials for both sprint and slalom in the same place,” Jacobi said. "That could happen here.”

Could
not would ,,folks, relax.

What is the average compensation of a Olympian candidate?
Until they're on a team they dont earn a living and most of that goes for training.

news 9 had a segment comparing the charlotte area river rafting facility. apparently it defaulted on its debt and is expecting a 20% decline in revenue this year over last.

then they had mayor mick on and he said the OKC river rafting facility would 'cash flow'. he didnt say if that 'cash flow' would be negative or positive.

oh well. as long as a positive study funded by the chamber of commerce says the thing will create x number of jobs, its a YES vote!

The fact that Olympic affiliated officials are paying attention to MAPS shows how significantly Oklahoma City has changed in the last 20 years. The construction of MAPS 3 projects is important to our economy, our self-image, and our national and even international image.

The Charlotte Park IS in default but is projected to make a small profit. They are working with creditors. The city subsidizes the park just under $300K/yr. This isn't like a White Water along I-40, but the world's largest man-made kayaking center. Its a man-made white water river.

BoulderSooner- are you serious about your post on Charlotte? You haven't even googled anything on it have you.
Charlotte whitewater facility was to be built at an estimate of 31 million dollars and came in at 38 million. They are now millions of dollars in debt and the facility is seen as a black hole of public funds that cater to the few individuals who so feverishly pursued it to begin with.
Now Okc has proposed that we pattern our facility just like the one in Charlotte, but ours will be so much better because it's got a river and boat house already on it.
VOTE NO. NOT THIS MAPS
Its a tremendous waste of taxpayers funds.

... I bet it is Paul from Yukon from newsok.

I doubt it. I don't tend to agree with much that iron posts, but I've seen the P from Y silliness over at NEWSOK several times. I don't think iron could dumb down that far even if he went on an all weekend bender, kicked down a door of some yankee cokehead transplant and fell face first into 3 inches of powder on the twerp perp's coffeetable.

The issue in Charlotte highlights the beauty of the MAPS formula - MAPS projects are built debt free. The economic model for the OKC project is reportedly very strong - without the burden of servicing a large debt like in Charlotte. Other cities take on debt for special projects like the whitewater center, downtown redevelopment, stadiums, arenas, etc due to the surrounding economic impact they can create - and other related benefits such as quality of life and image enhancement.

We would see similar issues with most of the MAPS projects (past and present) if they were/are not built debt free - this is why the OKC MAPS model has become the envy of many cities across the nation (including our in-state neighbor up the road). As was emphasized in a MAPS presentation today - the whitewater center would be open to everyone - providing the same type of rafting experience families travel to Colorado to enjoy - while being totally unique to OKC as an urban outdoor adventure destination.

The surrounding economic development would likely be similar to what occurred with the Bricktown Canal - but could appeal to retailers that would not likely otherwise be attracted to OKC (like an REI as mentioned in other posts) due to the infusion of an outdoor culture this would help create along with other projects (trails and river). While the Charlotte venue is isolated out of town, the OKC rapids venue would be in the heart of the city and would become a real catalyst for economic development - and complement the world class boathouse developments that are privately funded. It would provide a unique attraction in OKC - setting us apart from other cities, adding to the Olympic training brand being created at the Oklahoma River, attracting major international events, providing healthy activities for all ages and abilities (perhaps helping us improve our rankings in the areas of the health and wellness of our citizens), and helping attract and retain young professionals.

A final note that has not been discussed - but was emphasized in the presentation today - a side but substantial benefit for this venue would become a regional or national attraction for swift water rescue training for firefighters and rescue personnel. This has occurred in Charlotte, since the river is a controlled and safe environment for practicing rescue techniques in fast moving water. As the only controlled venue of its kind west of the Mississippi, OKC would become a major training center. Like Charlotte, the OKC venue would be completely self contained - not connected to the river (apparently not widely understood based on some earlier posts).

If you appreciate the momentum, low unemployment, healthy economy (compared to other major cities in the US), and all of the spin-off benefits of the original MAPS projects (Thunder, Devon Tower, etc), voting Yes will ensure that this special OKC formula lives on. The risk to our city and our citizens is infinitely greater with a No vote (even if you do not completely agree on the viability of each of the 8 individual projects). Collectively, the projects will ensure that we (and our children) continue to reap the benefits of making wise and visionary decisions.

VOTE YES DECEMBER 8TH!!!

I doubt it. I don't tend to agree with much that iron posts, but I've seen the P from Y silliness over at NEWSOK several times. I don't think iron could dumb down that far even if he went on an all weekend bender, kicked down a door of some yankee cokehead transplant and fell face first into 3 inches of powder on the twerp perp's coffeetable.


kevinpate, i couldn't have said it better myself!


:congrats:

The fact that Olympic affiliated officials are paying attention to MAPS shows how significantly Oklahoma City has changed in the last 20 years. The construction of MAPS 3 projects is important to our economy, our self-image, and our national and even international image.

The funny thing is what an obvious yes vote this is. We judge MAPS by its economic impact, and with MAPS 1 (which we all overwhelmingly support in hindsight) we had no guarantees of economic impact. With MAPS 3 we already have guarantees of economic impact. Not just from PRECEDENT but we can tell you what two spin-offs will already be: OCU Law moving downtown, and US Rowing setting up an OKC office.

The funny thing is what an obvious yes vote this is. We judge MAPS by its economic impact, and with MAPS 1 (which we all overwhelmingly support in hindsight) we had no guarantees of economic impact. With MAPS 3 we already have guarantees of economic impact. Not just from PRECEDENT but we can tell you what two spin-offs will already be: OCU Law moving downtown, and US Rowing setting up an OKC office.

That's a very good point, Spartan.

This is actually the key piece of data:

Economic impact of MAPS not passing: zero, zip, nada, none

This is actually the key piece of data:

Economic impact of MAPS not passing: zero, zip, nada, none

One could argue that MAPS not passing equals $700-800 million that over 7 or 8 years would be saved or spent by individuals/small biz/nonprofits. If the money is saved, banks will lend it out to small businesses that are expanding. The economic impact would be spread across the metro area, resulting in stronger balance sheets for individuals, small businesses, nonprofits, etc. These people could cure cancer and invest in riverfront businesses. All of this will create jobs and improve the overall economy.

Oh, and also the cancer curing companies and small businesses would be spending more sales tax accumulating dollars that would fund more police and fire positions.

I think we end up with the same spurious arguments one way or the other.

But its more simple my way!

Vote NO for MAPS!

Yeah, how many people do you see faithfully saving 20 cents a day until they can make that big purchase? That's the problem. If we could hand each of those people a big fat check at the start of the 7 years, then you might have a point. However, the problem is that no person can make any sort of economic impact by spending 20 cents a day stretched out over 7 years. You can't buy anything of substance with that kind of money. It takes a week to save enough to buy one 16 oz diet coke. It works for the city because they're putting all that money into one big savings account, and they don't pick up a candy bar at the 7-11 because they've got change jingling in their pocket. Your argument doesn't fly.

So you wouldn't agree with me when I argue that $7-800 million will be spent/saved either way, pass or not, over 7 or 8 years? Thats fine, but the money is spent or saved either way. To attribute superb growth results (in the form of chamber of commerce directed project priorities) of one form of top down spending is disingenuous. Thats all I have to say on the method of the issues.

oh yeah, 20 cents a day times a half a million + people over 7 years is significant. thats my point and thats also your point.

BoulderSooner- are you serious about your post on Charlotte? You haven't even googled anything on it have you.
Charlotte whitewater facility was to be built at an estimate of 31 million dollars and came in at 38 million. They are now millions of dollars in debt and the facility is seen as a black hole of public funds that cater to the few individuals who so feverishly pursued it to begin with.
Now Okc has proposed that we pattern our facility just like the one in Charlotte, but ours will be so much better because it's got a river and boat house already on it.
VOTE NO. NOT THIS MAPS
Its a tremendous waste of taxpayers funds.

that is the key .. our whitewater facility won't have a debt service . ..

Also, the $5 billion number from the orginal MAPS doesn't mean $5 billion straight into the city's bank account. Only a part of that would go back to the city in form of taxes. I guess I fail to see how the orginal MAPs should have paid for this one.

I understand that...the numbers are separate..that is why I said the increase in the sales tax revenue combined with the $5B number from the Chamber (and you are correct, it is a fraction of that number that goes into the Cities bank account). Even if it didn't completely cover it, it should have put a substantial "down payment".

The funny thing is what an obvious yes vote this is. We judge MAPS by its economic impact, and with MAPS 1 (which we all overwhelmingly support in hindsight) we had no guarantees of economic impact. With MAPS 3 we already have guarantees of economic impact. Not just from PRECEDENT but we can tell you what two spin-offs will already be: OCU Law moving downtown, and US Rowing setting up an OKC office.
Is this a Joke? OCU law moving downtown is great economic impact? :LolLolLol
How so? OH....Look out the US Rowing Office is moving to town!!!!! What was I thinking. How many new jobs will that bring us? You can't be serious! That's the best you can do. I'm convinced!!! LOL

And yet you firemen are happy to make well over the city median family income and have enough free time to work a second job. Then you can retire when you're in your forties and have a second career while receiving a pension paid for by city taxes.
Be careful betts... Your nice income, home, and lifestyle are provided through a very inflated health care system. You live quite nicely I bet since the only thing you are worried about is your precious bike trails. Your fleecing of the Insurance Companies with over inflated charges for Medical Care should be noted. Insurance Companies do what? Bend over working folks...Don't throw stones. Let's let that kind of talk die.

Ugh Iron, you continue to show your short-sightedness.

OCU Law - As much as I'm against it moving, I can see the impact it would have. CBD ofice space is expensive as crap, but west from there like near the Fred Jones building is cheaper. If OCU law moves, the lawyers will flock to it and start opening their firms within walking distance of it. Why? Because they want free access to the law library and free intern help from the students. If there's a streetcar, then they'll have transportation to the courthouse without having to pay to park in a garage as well. That type of business spurs other development in the area as well...such as restaurants. If you aren't aware, there are some places down there already, but they mostly cater to the warehouse type businesses in the area. Since this is not a C2S area, you won't see any development in the area unless it's acted on by an outside force. In this case, Maps 3 passing serves that purpose. The proximity to C2S will also serve to spur further development. Yes it's a 10-15 year longterm plan...but it will happen.

And again with the rowing...it's not what happens on a daily basis with that firm. It's the dollars they bring in from tourism that would otherwise NOT be here. That's not just a shift of dollars from one business to another, it's an INCREASE. Not to mention additional hotel/motel taxes. If you don't think having the HQ for an organization means anything, then go check out Indianapolis and get back to me later.

And as far as the salary, I 100% agree with Betts. It has nothing to do with what anyone else makes, it DOES however, have everything to do with what YOU make. Firefighters are one of the very few organizations that still have retirement. And boy do they retire early...and how many firemen also build homes, or have a lawn business? The fact they have that much free time tells me they aren't being utilized properly...across the board. And the fact you do earn a second income after retiring really irks me. I won't get that...hell I'm not going to have social security when i'm an old fart. What do I get? I get to work until I die...and I make a comfortable salary. Yes I respect firemen and police for what they do to protect me and my family. But you fail to recognize the sweet ride you've got. Police are in far worse shape my friend, but i don't see them trolling the boards.

...Not just from PRECEDENT but we can tell you what two spin-offs will already be: OCU Law moving downtown, and US Rowing setting up an OKC office.

The 1st one is definitely contingent on MAPS 3 passing (and presumes the still un-announced route will take it there). The second one is NOT contingent on MAPS 3 passing. From the 2nd paragraph of the linked article at the beginning of the thread:


The group is the governing body for the sport in the United States and stages the U.S. Olympic trials. Joe Jacobi, executive director of USA Canoe/Kayak and a gold medalist in the Barcelona Olympics, said the office will open in January regardless of how the MAPS 3 vote turns out.

This is actually the key piece of data:

Economic impact of MAPS not passing: zero, zip, nada, none

problem is, your data is incorrect. You have admitted that the forward momentum WILL continue even if MAPS 3 doesn't pass. You even supplied a nice list detailing it. Here is what you meant to write:

Number of the proposed projects mentioned in the Ballot/Ordinance: zero, zip, nada, none

I don't think he meant it the way you took it. Yes, the momentum will continue, but with Maps 3, it will increase again. We're not seeing as much development at the current time, because everyone is waiting to see what happens with Maps 3.

Once you see c2s clearing out, not only will downtown be more attractive and less ghetto, but the park will start attracting surrounding development. One only needs to look to any other major city with a large park like this to see how the surrounding land value goes through the roof....and they'll be empty lots at that time. How is that not better compared to the decomposing crap that is there now?

The issue in Charlotte highlights the beauty of the MAPS formula - MAPS projects are built debt free. The economic model for the OKC project is reportedly very strong - without the burden of servicing a large debt like in Charlotte. Other cities take on debt for special projects like the whitewater center, downtown redevelopment, stadiums, arenas, etc due to the surrounding economic impact they can create - and other related benefits such as quality of life and image enhancement.

We would see similar issues with most of the MAPS projects (past and present) if they were/are not built debt free - this is why the OKC MAPS model has become the envy of many cities across the nation (including our in-state neighbor up the road). ...

I can understand why you might think that as the City has been saying it for several years now. Question is, is that the case?

MAPS CONCEPT

Keep OKC Moving - Vote Yes for MAPS on December 8! (http://www.yesformaps.com/aboutmaps3.html)

From the Chamber’s MAPS 3 Campaign website (About the proposal )


The MAPS concept is unique to many in city government, because instead of incurring debt, we pay for the projects out of our cash flow so tax dollars go to the projects instead of paying for bonds.”
...
One of the unique aspects of MAPS is that all building is done without incurring debt.”

City of Oklahoma City | Public Information & Marketing (http://www.okc.gov/maps3/QA.html)

From the City’s website:


When a MAPS sales tax ends, does that mean the construction ends?
No. MAPS projects are built debt-free (as opposed to a bond issue project), and it takes time for the money to be collected and spent efficiently.

Problem with the above statements is that MAPS, MAPS for Kids, the Ford tax and MAPS 3 all have included the authorization to use bonds and other forms of indebtedness.

MAPS Bond Debt?


from EPA challenge gets OKC council eye (Journal Record, 9/9/1997)

According to the city’s current estimates, MAPS will cost $311.6 million while the sales tax is estimated, as of July 24, to bring in $315.17 million, leaving $3.5 million in “excess revenues over costs.”
That, however, won’t cover the already known $7.4 million shortfall in the budget for the Civic Center Music Hall and $10 million in costs for the Library/Learning Center now to be paid for with bond money instead of MAPS sales taxes, saddling the city with about $1 million in annual debt service for 20 years, according to the city’s finance director.

Then there was an article dated a year later posted by Doug that again mentions MAPS bond debt:


Extension Vote Forces Lesson in MAPS History (Oklahoman, 11/15/98)

City leaders also say the tax extension would allow them to avoid using $13 million in revenue bonds to cover additional costs for the Myriad Convention Center renovation and the Bricktown Ballpark, and avoid a $2 ticket surcharge to cover budget problems for the Civic Center Music Hall.

The second article doesn't mention anything about the $10M for the Library, so potentially, that is $23M in MAPS bond debt. Haven't run across any articles that have said definitively that the extension did cover it and no bond debt was utilized. But IF they were used, the first article indicates we haven’t paid for MAPS yet and are still paying for the $1 million in bond service debt for another 9 years (the remainder of the 20 years since this article was written). The 1st article mentions the $10M ends up costing $1M/year for 20 years = $20M (not sure if that is just the interest paid, or interest & principal) . Extrapolating that out to the $23M combined, that means MAPS is potentially still costing us at least a total of $46M (more if that is just the interest).

IF what the article says is true, it means City Leaders have been making a few false claims about MAPS (that we did it all debt free). If anyone has info that shows that the City didn’t incur this long term debt, please post and I will retract this part


MAPS for Kids

MAPS for Kids most definitely has significant bond debt attached to it. What is commonly called MAPS for Kids was composed of two elements, the $350M sales tax money and $180M in Bond issue money. In 2007, $248.3M in school bond issue was added (they had already burned through the 1st $180M). The latest bond issue covered many of the items that we were already paying for with MAPS for Kids money.


Ford Renovation Tax

http://newsok.com/article/3230180/1208273286


City council approves Sonics lease agreement (Oklahoman, 4/15/2008)

The city will begin work before the tax goes into effect Jan. 1, 2009 and will take out a $20 million line of credit to start the renovations.

Granted this isn't long term bond debt (but the Ford Ordinance #23,520, authorized bond debt too), yet the fact remains it is debt that has to be repaid.


§52-23.3. (b)...and if deemed necessary or appropriate by City Council for cash-flow purposes, the payment of principal and interest on and the costs of issuance of bonds, notes, lines-of-credit, or other evidences of indebtedness issued by a public trust with the City as its beneficiary for the purpose of providing or improving City sports facilities.


That brings us to MAPS 3

FACT: the City has already spent close to $6M to buy property for the MAPS 3 "Central Park". That is $6M in long term bond debt (authorized by the 2007 General Obligation bond). That same bond issue authorizes them to go into debt for a total of $26M. Bonds have to be paid back, and depending on the interest rate and length of the bond, it ends up costing double to triple the borrowed amount. So that $6M that the City is already in debt, will actually cost $12M to $18M. If the entire $26M is used, the total cost goes up to $52M-$78M.

Then you have to add in the unspecified debt that is authorized in Ordinance #23,942 we are voting on Tuesday:


§ 52-23.4. (d) (7) If deemed necessary or appropriate by the City Council for cash-flow purposes, for the payment of principal and interest on and the costs of issuance of bonds, notes, lines-of-credit, or other evidences of indebtedness issued by a public trust with the City as its beneficiary for the purpose of providing a City capital improvement.

Some of that is short term and some is long term, but the fact remains it is all debt and likely has to be repaid with interest. So much for the false claim that no debt would/will be incurred! Now if if you want to say, MAPS is paid for PRIMARILY debt free, that would be more accurate.

Mayor Micky did correctly parroted this" you can't grow a community's economy without bringing in money from outside of it."
But to go after the tourism/conventions dollar only is insane.
Look at all the hotels and airlines, ie the travel industry they can be impacted by fuel costs,the "discretionary/expenses spending by companies",threats to security, health concerns.
For a time OKC, saw call centers as a portion of "high Tech" services. and actively marketed the City for that sector.
Call centers have huge turnovers of personnel, and some have been closed.
Somewhere, someone has to produce something, someone would want to buy.
Make OKC the place.
MAPS3 if defeated, the Council can come back to us with a series of par down ones.
Its last too long to just name a few of its (the one we're voting for) short comings.

Somewhere, someone has to produce something, someone would want to buy.

People pay for services and service is actually where most of the employment growth has come from in the US for the past 70 years.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_8rpY5fQK-UQ/SiLfhH5J7hI/AAAAAAAAG3M/wA32rCSdO28/s1600/employment.png

We can try and go after production all we want. But, there are a lot more service jobs out there.

Mayor Micky did correctly parroted this" you can't grow a community's economy without bringing in money from outside of it."
But to go after the tourism/conventions dollar only is insane.
Look at all the hotels and airlines, ie the travel industry they can be impacted by fuel costs,the "discretionary/expenses spending by companies",threats to security, health concerns.
For a time OKC, saw call centers as a portion of "high Tech" services. and actively marketed the City for that sector.
Call centers have huge turnovers of personnel, and some have been closed.
Somewhere, someone has to produce something, someone would want to buy.
Make OKC the place.
MAPS3 if defeated, the Council can come back to us with a series of par down ones.
Its last too long to just name a few of its (the one we're voting for) short comings.

GM, I hear what you are saying but here's the difficulty. First though, realize that "production" can be production of goods or it can be production of services. There is virtually nothing at this time, that can be produced in the US for less than it can be produced in another country. The things we CAN compete to produce are mainly natural resources but the environmental rules and regs and politicians make production of natural resources extremely difficult here.

People cry and fret about the falling dollar. Yes, there are some things that it damages, such as prestige where the world bases standard pricing on "X" number of dollars, or "dollars per barrell." However, those are not vital financial underpinnings of our economy. As the dollar falls, there is a great positive impact in that it helps US produced goods and services compete on a world scale. If the value of the dollar falls at a slow, controlled rate, there are generally no negative effects, however, if dollar falls too fast - which it is bordering on doing now - it becomes inflationary as other economies demand more dollars to pay for the same thing.

For a long time, our economy has been changing from manufacturing to a service and technology-producing economy. What has started to harm the US, even before the recent economic downturn, is that companies have begun to export their service production. Examples are how often you now talk to "Sean" in Bangalore or "Karen" in Buenos Aires.

There have been small-scale revolts against the exporting of all services overseas such as with Dell Computer when customers simply stopped buying their product because they couldn't get anyone on the phone who could understand the problem. Dell responded by establishing some call centers in the US.

Until American's begin to outwardly voice and revolt against the exporting of even service jobs overseas by American companies, there won't be massive job growth. I think most American's are willing to pay a few pennies more for a product or service so they can get help when they need/want it. Much of Corporate America is still fused with the notion that cheaper is better at all costs.

So you wouldn't agree with me when I argue that $7-800 million will be spent/saved either way, pass or not, over 7 or 8 years? Thats fine, but the money is spent or saved either way. To attribute superb growth results (in the form of chamber of commerce directed project priorities) of one form of top down spending is disingenuous. Thats all I have to say on the method of the issues.

oh yeah, 20 cents a day times a half a million + people over 7 years is significant. thats my point and thats also your point.

The question is how does the money get spent? With MAPS it goes to capital improvements, and we've seen the benefit of having a MAPS program. We saw it last night when the OKC Thunder defeated the Philadelphia 76ers. I mean, as of the time I'm posting this, Kevin Durant is on the front page of ESPN.com in a blue Oklahoma City jersey. That's something we'd have never had without MAPS.

If you look at it from a personal perspective, take your income, subtract your savings, and whatever is left is the amount you spend. Your argument is that it doesn't matter what you spend your money on. Whether you gamble at the casino, go out to eat, or fix up your house, the money gets spent regardless. But I think anyone rational can tell you that in the long term, spending money putting on a new roof is probably going to have an overall better impact on your quality of life than buying the special edition Batman DVD.

There's an old school of thought that I've seen in OKC over the years, that we don't want to spend one dime on taxes if we don't have to. I agree that taxes should be spent judiciously. But when those guys who cling to that old idea, not one penny for anything, when they get their way, you know what happens? Nothing. We had fifty years on that way of thinking, ever since the Dust Bowl. Look what Bricktown was like in the late 80s. Look and see what private investment, left entirely on its own with no guiding hand, had brought us. Nothing. You need capital improvements.

Where would Oklahoma be without quality of life capital improvements? Well, we'd have no lakes (virtually all of Oklahoma's lakes are man made). We wouldn't have parks. We wouldn't have the Oklahoma City Zoo (which, while funded through donations and ticket sales now, did not start out that way). We wouldn't have Remington Park or the Cowboy Hall of Fame. We wouldn't have museums or libraries. We wouldn't have Bricktown (not a safe one anyway) or the Thunder. We wouldn't have the Myriad Gardens, or the Myriad itself. No Ford Center. No river. No minor league baseball team. No Owen Field. No sense of self respect.

No one is going to be willing to invest in our city if we are unwilling to do so as well.

the suburbs are where the the new fire stations are supposed to go. You will think its great to have less fire unitl your family or frineds have a house burn up. did you wathc the news last night about the guy whose friends kid started a matress fire and the house was gone in 5 min. if we decrease staffing then the responsonse time will even be longer and more people will lose more stuff. but thats ok with you yes people becuase you are fortunate enough to have great insurance and have money to buy things back. you guys are forgetting the not so wealthy that has everything they own in one room. it may not cost lots buts it there stuff and they dont have the uinsurance or the money to replace. all so you guys can possibly have a sidewalk or a whitewater park. you guys are the selfish ones. you only think about the rihc and careless about the poor. got a fire station adn ride out with them on a poor part of town. see how the poor live. fire doesnt discriminate neither do the fd. but you people do. you are sick


Dear Lord, you type like a 12 year old.

Dear Lord, you type like a 12 year old.

he may not have used spell check, but he has the same concern many have.

The 1st one is definitely contingent on MAPS 3 passing (and presumes the still un-announced route will take it there). The second one is NOT contingent on MAPS 3 passing. From the 2nd paragraph of the linked article at the beginning of the thread:

You're right Larry, that's why I refrained from saying they're both contingent on MAPS. But irregardless, US Rowing is still MAPS3 economic impact. Seemingly, from the announcement of the proposition alone.