Just back home after about five days in Oklahoma and I always like to write up my thoughts and impressions.

Since I moved in 1989, this was the longest I had been away (almost two years). I present this in the vein of a quasi-outsider’s perspective who really wants the best for OKC; I apologize if any of this comes across as a smug Californian casting judgment.


I’ll start with the positives.

The life and energy downtown (particularly the CBD and Bricktown) continues to ramp up. I was down there several times – which says a lot in itself – and every time, there were people everywhere and lots going on. Met some friends at the bar at Nona’s on Friday night and it was full and happening, even after everyone left for the Thunder game. Beautiful spot, live music, great service and drinks – that’s a great spot to take visitors. Lots of life everywhere we walked that night.

A couple of times, I met friends who were visiting from out of town (ex-OKC-pats like me) and I made sure to do it in the central core. All were amazed! Just goes to show how much has changed in just the last 10-15 years.

Went to my first Thunder game on Sunday night and was impressed! Big crowd, fun environment and they’ve done a great job marketing to families, which is wise. From the inside, it was hard to visualize all the changes that are coming but I look forward to returning and seeing upgraded concourses, more clubs and restaurants, etc. It’s all needed. And it was GREAT to see so many people milling around downtown on a Sunday night!

I stuck my head into the First National Center and it looks like all the cosmetic work in the lobby, arcade and proposed new north entrance is at a complete stand-still. The new marble floor (to match the same in the Great Banking Hall) is a pretty small area just at the base of the escalators. It has not been carried into the arcade and it doesn’t look like that will happen any time soon. There is some odd and not very attractive tile right as you enter from the west revolving doors and it looks new. Not sure why it doesn’t match the other stonework but it makes for a disappointing first impression. Still soooo much potential in that property though!

GREAT to see the Devon construction site in person! No matter what anyone says, a major construction project downtown does a lot for a city’s self-esteem and image and it’s only going to get better. Can’t wait to see the streetscaping project get underway because it is needed. There are actually lots of people around and that project will bring more and keep them outdoors.

I went to Iguana on 9th just off Auto Alley on Wednesday and loved the building and setting but the food didn't excite me. I almost missed the development to the east, as the restaurant somewhat blocks the view of the several little renovated houses and I wonder how many people may miss them completely.

The holiday lights in Auto Alley were very, very cool! A little too far between but perhaps they will do more in future years. But I was impressed, as were the other people I made sure saw them. And that whole area has definitely turned a corner and I am sure the best is yet to come.

Midtown has started to come to life, too. All the bars and restaurants seemed busy and there were tons of cars everywhere. Still need more housing units but that will come.

The weather was so nice on Friday, I ran the entire circumference of Lake Hefner, the first time I had really spent time on those trails. I grew up nearby but there was virtually nothing but mud and weeds until the early 90’s (?) I believe. Anyway, it was awesome to make that trip and see so many people out running, walking, rollerblading and cycling. I’m all for more of these projects and I hope MAPS 3 passes and brings them. They are needed and will be used!

Downtown Edmond sure is a nice little enclave and Campus Corner in Norman seems to be completely full and booming. I’m an OU grad and a little biased, but that campus continues to evolve for the better. Great gardens and hardscape everywhere, lots of new and newly remodeled facilities, several big projects underway and a bunch more on the drawing board. I tried to get into Iron Starr but the line was way too long – good for Tuck! Walked through, though, and it’s a great space.

Classen Curve is more impressive in person – pictures don’t do it justice. Parts are also more open to Grand/Western than I had thought, which is a good thing for retail. I didn’t realize that almost half was still under construction but beyond 105 Degrees and Republic, there doesn’t seem to be anything tenant-wise going on there.

The Chesapeake campus is finally to the point where it looks somewhat complete, rather than just one massive construction zone. I know there is a building and garage underway east of Classen, but the core campus looks relatively done and beautiful. One gripe: Why place such a big building so close to the intersection at 63rd & Western? This is the main crossroads and that campus deserves a better gateway, especially if CHK redevelops all those properties on adjacent corners. Weird planning. But everything looks great otherwise I really like the mix of modern elements with the traditional architecture.

The airport is greatness. So easy to get in and out of, lots of amenities, I can easily get direct flights from L.A., and it’s a very pleasant place to spend a couple of hours. Love the way expansion was built into the plan.

The people in Oklahoma are just so darn friendly and nice. Everyone in a good mood, even with the crush of traveling, the holidays and big crowds in Norman and at the Ford Center. I sure hope that never changes.



The less-than-positive

I was shocked at the state of much of the northwest part of town. The area south of NW Expressway – apart from a few pockets – is bad and getting worse all the time. And NW Expressway itself is quite an eyesore west of McArthur.

I always go back and visit neighbors at my old neighborhood near 63rd & Meridian, and all around are empty buildings (mainly strip centers) and everywhere else is filled with pawn, bingo and thrift stores. There is a center on the northwest corner of 63rd & McArthur that is down-right shocking – like a bad area of Detroit. Just 25 years ago, my family shopped at a Safeway, Treasury Drug, TG&Y and there was even a two-screen theater. I should have taken pictures but I was too aghast. Virtually empty, beyond shabby and huge, muddy craters throughout the parking lot. And I saw lots of other properties in similar condition.

What is going to happen to this area that just one generation ago was considered the best in town? What force will ever come along and turn the tide? It’s not like the core that has lots of character and convenience to all best amenities. I’m afraid it’s symbolic of a much bigger problem in OKC and I really hope at some point this abandon-and-move-farther-out mentality gets reigned in. I can’t tell you how depressing it is for someone that grew up in that area at a time when Putnam City was comparable to what Edmond is now. 20 years from now, will we be saying the same thing about big parts of Edmond and far north OKC?? History says yes -- it happened to the Northwest Classen / John Marshall area before PC became the place to be. Where/when does this awful cycle end??

In general, WAY, WAY too many strip malls and the large majority are nothing more than painted tilt-up concrete. The I-240 corridor is especially bad and NW Expressway and Memorial are really the same thing, just slightly newer versions. And of course, loads of vacant and abandoned shopping centers everywhere you go – even in Edmond.

On the bright side, I guess you can live close in or far out and just avoid that part of town altogether (which is what appears to happen quite a bit) but it’s still sad and troubling.

BTW, I don’t fault anyone for living far out or developing their commercial property. The fault lies with an almost complete lack of planning or thought about the need for any of this.



To (somewhat of) an outsider, its clear The City has tons of positive momentum with still lots more upside. But I am legitimately worried about the continuous throw-away development mentality and something needs to change.

What an excellent report, Pete. It's really helpful to see the city though a friendly but also objective pair of eyes. One of these days, I'd surely like to meet you.

Pete, marvelous report. And I agree with every single thing you had to say. When I was back in June/July, I also noticed (and posted) that some areas really are blighted as compared to others. My old stomping grounds west of Portland on the NW side in some areas were really depressing. But there is so, so, so much progress that has been made in others - some people have no idea. I've been gone almost ten years (except for visits), it is incredible.

Man, you really got around while you were in town!

The I-240 area is actually a hotspot?

It's seen significant retail and restaurant business in the past few years. I know some of the shopping centers where they used to be empty are now full with the exception of the brick strip mall where Burlington's and Petsmart used to be located.

Nice report. The middle ring of this town is the soon-to-be warzone.

I will echo the complaint of way, WAY too many strip shopping centers. The city could lose half of them and still have plenty.

Very nice analysis. Hope you enjoyed your stay here!

Did you make it to the Bedlam?

Very poignant analysis Pete. And the councilmembers who bowed to suburban developers to allow that growth are long gone now. The question is whether the current council can see with your eyes what you've seen as they allow a fifth and sixth ring of development (disclosure: at wife's request, I live in the fourth ring though my heart is in the core). And how will all these cookie-cutter French cottage style neighborhods and the endless strips of identical stucco-facade big box shopping strips fare in 30 years? The core is reviving partially due to the uniqueness of the old architecture. I wonder if the ongoing sprawl areas being gobbled up right now won't end up like the neighborhood you once treasured.
Something to think about folks. These issues came up during the 2000 master plan debates. Thing that stands out most in my mind is just how dis-engaged the average residents were in the discussion considering how much was at stake. Back then I fought like crazy to get as much coverage out there as possible. I won some nice wooden plaques for my work, but I heard most birds chirping when it came to community response. Business and development interests, meanwhile, weren't so quiet. These things don't happen without warning...

I agree 100%, Pete on each of my visits back to OKC (though I am only 6.5 hours south) on the positives and negatives.

While I believe Tuscana will be a welcome addition to the city, I still hope for something similar downtown to compliment the creations of MAPS 3 pending its passage.

What I also hope for ailing parts of the city is that residents will begin to take notice and make a stand for their part of the city. Create an association. Take action against nuisance property owners. Let them know they are not welcome of they do not care to spruce up their properties, and help them if they are not able to but want to.

Good post

Good job Pete and thanks for the report. I very much agree with the concern about NW OKC. I also agree there's needs to be more citizen involvement in many of these issues. Realistically though, to what Steve said, more people are inclined to get involved on a neighborhood level. I love Steve's reporting of downtown and he may disagree, but part of the problem you saw, Pete, is a problem with the thinking that if it doesn't happen downtown it just doesn't happen. This city has put such an emphasis on downtown that I honestly think there is a neglect of the neighborhoods farther out. There is a very core-centric mentality that makes it hard to get serious attention on many other parts of the city. One small example would be Martin Park Nature Center where they have to hold things together on such a tiny budget and its beginning to show. They do the best they can, but get very little attention from the people downtown. Martin Park Nature Center is a gem and is serenity surrounded by suburban chaos. Just one of many examples.

Thanks again for the excellent feedback.

Excellent post, Pete.

My wife and I live near 23rd and Meridian and we like our little neighborhood. We are fortunate to have an active neighborhood association and property owners who seem to care for their properties.

In some ways, we feel our neighborhood is improving, as more and more people are fixing up these great 50s ranch homes, which have become very hip in general.

According to some neighbors, our neighborhood has more ethnic variety than it used to, and we feel this is a plus.

I do share your concerns, though, with neighborhoods to our West and North. Also, the city should begin to address the atrocious ugliness of the commercial sections.

Thanks for posting that Pete. FYI, the PC School district just passed a bond election to do major renovations to the PC schools. Besides that I am not sure what the city governments can do to improve the situation. I am pretty sure that the strip mall at 63rd and MacArthur is in Warr Acres and it is a shame what has become of it. I too grew up not too far from there and spent much time at the library and the movie theater. There was also a really nice Hallmark shop inside the mall area that I remember fondly. There is a strip mall on the southeast corner of 39th and Mac that is making a comeback of sorts. The new owner has put some money into renovations and has attracted quite a few new tenants one of which is a 24 hour fitness center that opened just a few weeks ago. I guess it takes money to make money.

When I look at what's happening with 23rd Street, I feel no area is hopeless. I really do feel that good mass transit is one of the keys to helping return these areas to what they once were. Because all we have right now is a car culture, and because our highways are relatively light on traffic, there's no impetus to not "throw away" and create new farther and farther out. Builders need open land on which to create developments and the open land is on the perimeter. But, as our population increases, traffic will increase and using mass transit will be more and more attractive, even to those seemingly attached at the hip to their automobile. When the only open land is so far away that people aren't willing to drive that far, then perhaps we will see the value in our closer in areas, perhaps property costs there will be such that they will again become attractive to our residents, and we'll see them come back.

I thought strongly about doing a photo essay of the pervasive ugliness and general neglect of dozens and dozens of commercial properties I noticed just from casual drives.

I hestitate to do it, though, because documenting the blight would be something people could point to whenever they want to take stabs at OKC, and I don't really want to be a part of that.

On the other hand, I want to make it clear I am not just talking about that one particular center or a few square miles... There are HUGE areas that look terrible and while I love the idea of grassroots movements by individual neighborhoods, the city has to get involved somehow due to the sheer scale and velocity of this disturbing trend.

But such a pictorial would no doubt be shocking to view as a collective. People are somewhat desensitized as this has happened gradually and they merely skip these areas or pay little attention.

Nobody seemed to care much when this happened to 10th, then 23rd... But have you seen 39th street lately? Take a drive down 50th and the western part of 63rd street. Take a good look at the western part of NW Expressway and good chunks of Memorial or even most of Broadway in Edmond -- not to mention virutally all the properties north of I-240 on the southside.

I'm not necessarily talking about neighborhoods, although most have changed for the worst. But all the ugly apartment buildings, fast food joints, convenience stores, car repair places, auto lots and those ugly, ugly strip centers everywhere.

Man, it's bad. And we are creating more and more of these throw-away developments even in what is considered the 'nicer' areas of town.


The city council may have changed but I don't see anything that resembles responsible planning. What has changed in that regard? Has the city EVER said no to a developer who wants to rezone a cow pasture for hundres of cookie-cutter homes and yet another soulless strip mall and even more fast food? All this despite the fact there is way more housing and that other junk than is needed -- and the resources of the city are stretched very thin.

Until the mentality changes with the city (and Edmond) every next generation will just keep moving into one of the new neighborhoods and leaving the older ones (even if they are only 20-30 years old) to gradually deteriorate.

I also live South of NW Highway. When purchasing our home, the idea was to buy someplace close to downtown but not have to live in an apartment or condo. Sharing walls just didnt work out. If we tried, we could make these neighborhoods what Queens is to Manhattan---or Brooklyn or Staten Island for that matter. However, public transit has to be part of the plan. While new buses promised under MAPS3 would be a start, running them after 6pm would also be helpful.

I lived for more than 15 years around the NW Highway and MacArthur area. The year before I left the area I had my home appraised. When I sold the home I received 33% less than that appraisal. And I felt I was very fortunate to even sell the house because there were many on the market at very cheap prices.

That was before MAPS 1. It was near the bottom probably of a market decline that began about the time of Penn Square Bank failing. At the time a good many of us including me thought the worse was over. But it wasn't and things declined more for a while afterward.

Commercial ventures and the offices and retail space they occupied fared worse than the residential market.

Honestly about the only people I knew then that did okay were government employees of one kind or another. Oil, banks, and real estate collapsed. Most everything else if it didn't collapse was seriously hurt.

A lot of people had to leave the State then just to find work.

I believe that is one very significant reason that caused that entire area to deteriorate.

But another is the changing needs of families. Nearly everyone I knew in my old neighborhood is either divorced, retired, or dead. Children are grown and mostly moved away. Interestingly a few have returned and I know of others who want to come back.

So if you are single or you're just a couple you have a vastly different requirement for housing.

I'm not disagreeing at all with the way things look but I do think it is important for everyone to remember what happened.

Hey Pete,

I know that predictions about the future usually aren't worth much, but I genuinely believe this problem will right itself over time. The building and outfitting of these outer city rings that occurred over the last 40 years or so in OKC and other western cities was only made possible by cheap energy. Even in the middle of a huge economic downturn we are still sitting at $2.65 at the pump - and I have a hunch fuel prices continue their march upward as soon as the developing world gets their economies into full swing again.

I think we can count on developers to have their head in the sand about this, and we can probably count on some myopia on the part of the city council. But, the economics of this model simply won't continue to work - and at some point, the public apathy Steve mentioned will give way to a huge change in the zeitgeist as it relates to the continual push outward and abandonment of old neighborhoods.

We won't arrive there through thoughtfulness and planning - it will just happen. Small will be the new big, and relocalization will be a word that comes into more common use.

The Lyrewood area right near Macarthur and NW Expressway is one of the worst neighborhoods in the city. Whoever thought it was a great idea to put 5,000 apartments in the middle of an otherwise decent area is crazy.

I work with a mentoring program that does a lot of gang prevention and it's basically a tour of the worst parts of OKC. It's amazing how shielded we are because of our freeway culture and the segregation that's taken place. You can live your whole life in OKC and never have to go through the NE side of town or end up on SE 15th and Central or SW 6th and Shartel or the countless other areas that are blighted and full of struggling people.

I am really pleased to be a part of a church and a network of leaders who are really working to change these things through community engagement. It is a slow process but I believe these neighborhoods can experience life again.

The biggest thing is just getting other people to care.

Just some neighborhoods to visit if you want to see the underbelly of OKC:

Will Rogers Courts: SW 15 and Kentucky

Ambassador Courts: SE 15th and High

Prince Hall Village (renamed): NE 23rd and Kelley

Apartments on NE 27-29 and MLK

Area of SW 29th and Portland

Classen Ten/Penn area

Sooner Haven: NE 36th and Kelley

North Highlands: Bordered by Walker to West, Robinson to East, Britton to North and Wilshire to South



What's really interesting is you can pretty much drive West to East on any of the major inner city streets and experience a whole new world. On the south side 15th, 29th, 44th, and 59th. On the North side 10th, 23rd, and 36th.

Hey Pete,

The Pines and Twin Lakes additions are still little bastions of hope, but you're right, the rest of the area is a blight. Woodlake Racquet Club finally closed and many of the outdoor courts are already torn up. You travel at your own peril up Lyrewood Lane, as it is now the barrio. I drove by your old house the other day and thought about you; wondered if you ever got back here, and now I know. Give me a call next time you're in town and I'll by you lunch. I'm in the book.

FYI, I am one of those that sold out and moved out to the country.

I hope that the city leaders are reading this post.

This is one of the best real discussions on Okc talk.

Great observations by all.

I work with a mentoring program that does a lot of gang prevention and it's basically a tour of the worst parts of OKC. It's amazing how shielded we are because of our freeway culture and the segregation that's taken place. You can live your whole life in OKC and never have to go through the NE side of town or end up on SE 15th and Central or SW 6th and Shartel or the countless other areas that are blighted and full of struggling people.

I am really pleased to be a part of a church and a network of leaders who are really working to change these things through community engagement. It is a slow process but I believe these neighborhoods can experience life again.

Is this a program that is offered through your church, or is this open to other individuals? There may be some of us who would be interested in getting involved, if you'd be willing to post information on how to contact your group.

There are a lot of things going on here that contribute to the problem. Identifying the blighted areas is certainly an initial step, but fixing it is another. The areas listed tend to be low income, multifamily housing, often in high crime neighborhoods. Gracefor24 is involved with mentoring of young people in an effort to address gang violence, certainly a worthy goal. The blighted areas are related to the problem but fixing one won't fix the other. Some of the kids they help may come back to the old neighborhood at some point and work to turn it around, but that is a long term fix and my experience has been that most kids who leave the "ghetto" don't go back. I admire the ones who do but understand why they wouldn't.

There will always be poor people, sadly. Some of them are wretchedly poor. That tends to provide children who are more vulnerable to joining gangs. If you save a few kids from gangs, they may well go on to make good, productive lives for themselves. May that be so.

But no matter how well those individuals are doing, there remains the fundamental problem of poor people with no real incentive to expend money on their apartments. The fact is, a lot of them won't so much as sweep the front porch and that doesn't cost anything. That is just not their mindset. And when the occupants won't care for the property, no one who will wants to live there. It attracts people who don't expect much and don't have much. And it goes downhill from there.

There isn't enough money or wisdom on the planet to be able to take all of those people and transform them into productive citizens living in nice little neighborhoods. Absent a stake in the property, most people, regardless of income, won't pay for so much as a can of paint to gussy up a rental. If these areas were mowed down to make room for nicer houses, where would these people go? Most have weak work skills, not much money and no incentive to maintain property that doesn't belong to them. If the property value drops, the worst that will happen is that their rent might also fall.

We homeowners are always thinking in terms of how our property values will be affected based on how well we are maintaining our home or how our neighbors are caring for theirs. Renters don't have that mindset and the ones most likely to appreciate a nice place wouldn't be caught dead in places like the ones listed.

If I had my way, all the high crime neighborhoods would be busted up to that the kids aren't all congregated in those types of bad neighborhoods, feeding into bad schools that further undermines their ability to get a decent education. But cleaning up those properties, for the most part, will just cause the families to have to relocate and most will go to someplace similar. If you put the same people with the same mindset into another place, it will shortly end up the same way.

The Lyrewood area right near Macarthur and NW Expressway is one of the worst neighborhoods in the city. Whoever thought it was a great idea to put 5,000 apartments in the middle of an otherwise decent area is crazy.

I work with a mentoring program that does a lot of gang prevention and it's basically a tour of the worst parts of OKC. It's amazing how shielded we are because of our freeway culture and the segregation that's taken place. You can live your whole life in OKC and never have to go through the NE side of town or end up on SE 15th and Central or SW 6th and Shartel or the countless other areas that are blighted and full of struggling people.

I am really pleased to be a part of a church and a network of leaders who are really working to change these things through community engagement. It is a slow process but I believe these neighborhoods can experience life again.

The biggest thing is just getting other people to care.

Just some neighborhoods to visit if you want to see the underbelly of OKC:

Will Rogers Courts: SW 15 and Kentucky

Ambassador Courts: SE 15th and High

Prince Hall Village (renamed): NE 23rd and Kelley

Apartments on NE 27-29 and MLK

Area of SW 29th and Portland

Classen Ten/Penn area

Sooner Haven: NE 36th and Kelley

North Highlands: Bordered by Walker to West, Robinson to East, Britton to North and Wilshire to South



What's really interesting is you can pretty much drive West to East on any of the major inner city streets and experience a whole new world. On the south side 15th, 29th, 44th, and 59th. On the North side 10th, 23rd, and 36th.

Nearly every place on this list was a problem when I was a social worker in the early and mid '60s. I'm glad they haven't been given up on.

FWIW, Prince Hall was an instant ghetto. A bright shiny slum the day it was built.

In my original comments, the areas of concern were those considered very nice -- maybe the best in town and certainly upper middle class -- just a generation ago.

Every city has bad areas due simply to the Bell Curve of income distribution: a little bad, a bunch good and a little great. But I've never seen such a big area of 'good' turn borderline 'bad'.

And I don't think it's typical of other cities and I don't think natural forces will correct the problem. This situation has always been there for OKC, it's just the concentric circles of problem areas keep growing and growing.

I think these issues are somewhat unique to OKC for several reasons: 1) There are no physical barriers to pushing further and further out. No mountains, bodies of water, limitations on flat, easily buildable land. 2) Traffic is an absolute non-issue. I've never seen a city that has virtually zero traffic jams. I drove downtown from Edmond on a workday in morning rush hour and never even tapped my brakes on the expressway. Made it in about 20 minutes. 3) Homes, by any standard, are cheap. So, it's easy to go buy a shiny new tract home. Apart from a few historical neighborhoods with charm, there is little reason to not buy a newer home. 4) Land is very cheap.

While in town, I stayed with a friend in Oak Tree and drove due west of there several times, heading out Sorgum Mill (234th), Covell (220th) and Edmond (178th). And what did I see waaaay out there? Sonics! And convenience stores! And even little strip centers! And of course, many housing tracts. I'm talking all the way to Council Road.

Where all this started to turn was when Quail Springs was built -- in 1980!! There was NOTHING out there, apart from the wide boulevard that was Memorial Road. Edmond was definitely not the place to be -- just another suburb. And for the longest time, that mall and the surrounding area suffered.

So what did the state/city do? Built an expressway right down Memorial. And also put in the Lake Hefner parkway (not to mention greatly expanding and enhancing Broadway Extension I-35 north). And guest what? The area started to boom and my friends and family that formerly lived in the PC schools moved out there.

It's very clear which was the chicken and which was the egg in this situation: The PC area was still very good -- PC North opened as a glittering new school in 1979 -- but people left anyway for the allure of the new.

I graduated Puntam City in 1978 and plan all my class reunions. Of those that still live in the area, the huge majority live in the Edmond school district. And in trying to find many of them, I learned their parents and siblings have largely moved there too. And even more shocking, many now are all the way out in Deer Creek and Guthrie!

Now, people love to point out that the PC area and school district are not what the once were. But they were still going great guns until all that road construction in the Edmond and far NW sectors.


And I frankly don't see mass transit or rising fuel prices slowing down this trend. I'm all for the streetcar and rail but that will help build the inner core -- it's not going to help people at NW Expressway and McArthur.

The inner core has started to come back because of it's uniqueness: Character and proximity to downtown. What do these suburban neighborhoods have that would ever attract people to start moving back there? They are largely dying... The younger people just move further and further out. Even as these homes are sold by families that once had kids, they are not being bought by the same.

Even such little quirky closer-in places like Chuck House and Bunny's Onion Burgers have just built new locations in Edmond! Why would anyone out there even go to OKC, apart from the downtown area? From what I could tell, most of them don't.

The result is what you see in the surrounding commercial development. Most of it is hideous. And of course, that drives even more people out.


If you think this is going to change any time soon, go take a drive south of 50th street and look around. That area is now two generations removed from being considered a family area and it's not getting better.

In my original comments, the areas of concern were those considered very nice -- maybe the best in town and certainly upper middle class -- just a generation ago.

Every city has bad areas due simply to the Bell Curve of income distribution: a little bad, a bunch good and a little great. But I've never seen such a big area of 'good' turn borderline 'bad'.

And I don't think it's typical of other cities and I don't think natural forces will correct the problem. This situation has always been there for OKC, it's just the concentric circles of problem areas keep growing and growing.

I think these issues are somewhat unique to OKC for several reasons: 1) There are no physical barriers to pushing further and further out. No mountains, bodies of water, limitations on flat, easily buildable land. 2) Traffic is an absolute non-issue. I've never seen a city that has virtually zero traffic jams. I drove downtown from Edmond on a workday in morning rush hour and never even tapped my brakes on the expressway. Made it in about 20 minutes. 3) Homes, by any standard, are cheap. So, it's easy to go buy a shiny new tract home. Apart from a few historical neighborhoods with charm, there is little reason to not buy a newer home. 4) Land is very cheap.

While in town, I stayed with a friend in Oak Tree and drove due west of there several times, heading out Sorgum Mill (234th), Covell (220th) and Edmond (178th). And what did I see waaaay out there? Sonics! And convenience stores! And even little strip centers! And of course, many housing tracts. I'm talking all the way to Council Road.

Where all this started to turn was when Quail Springs was built -- in 1980!! There was NOTHING out there, apart from the wide boulevard that was Memorial Road. Edmond was definitely not the place to be -- just another suburb. And for the longest time, that mall and the surrounding area suffered.

So what did the state/city do? Built an expressway right down Memorial. And also put in the Lake Hefner parkway (not to mention greatly expanding and enhancing Broadway Extension I-35 north). And guest what? The area started to boom and my friends and family that formerly lived in the PC schools moved out there.

It's very clear which was the chicken and which was the egg in this situation: The PC area was still very good -- PC North opened as a glittering new school in 1979 -- but people left anyway for the allure of the new.

I graduated Puntam City in 1978 and plan all my class reunions. Of those that still live in the area, the huge majority live in the Edmond school district. And in trying to find many of them, I learned their parents and siblings have largely moved there too. And even more shocking, many now are all the way out in Deer Creek and Guthrie!

Now, people love to point out that the PC area and school district are not what the once were. But they were still going great guns until all that road construction in the Edmond and far NW sectors.


And I frankly don't see mass transit or rising fuel prices slowing down this trend. I'm all for the streetcar and rail but that will help build the inner core -- it's not going to help people at NW Expressway and McArthur.

The inner core has started to come back because of it's uniqueness: Character and proximity to downtown. What do these suburban neighborhoods have that would ever attract people to start moving back there? They are largely dying... The younger people just move further and further out. Even as these homes are sold by families that once had kids, they are not being bought by the same.

The result is what you see in the surrounding commercial development. Most of it is hideous. And of course, that drives even more people out.


If you think this is going to change any time soon, go take a drive south of 50th street and look around. That area is now two generations removed from being considered a family area and it's not getting better.I see your point. The neighborhood that you grew up around has changed tremendously in the past 20-25 years. I believe that demographics have a huge factor and the economics have shifted for the city. PC Schools were very well known in the 70's and 80"s and you saw alot of young families moving to that area due to the good reputation the schools had. I also believe some of it had to due to "late" white flight IMHO. This has certainly taken place in the DFW area as well. Richardson and Plano were very popular suburbs in the 80's and 90"s, however, I am seeing pockets of these areas are also starting to get run down and the socio-economics are changing. People are moving further North like places such as Frisco, McKinney, Allen etc.. and these areas demographics are growing in wealth and prosperity. The inner city of Dallas such as Midtown, Uptown and Highland Park, University Park are still very desirable and young, affluent couples even with children are moving into these areas that have charm and appeal. I think most cities in the country are experiencing this trend.I think what will help OKC is if major companies would move HQ's and offices so that OKC can get new wealth and new tax money flowing into the community thus resulting in new development and even infill development.

I am new to the city. What are these "rings of development" that you talk about? Someone mentioned they live in the 4th ring... what does that even mean?

progressive, one huge difference in Dallas is the traffic. That city has grown very far out but the areas slightly closer in will come back with time because people can only live so far away (and extend their commuting time) so far.

It's the same here in L.A. There was tons of flight and sprawl but any neighborhood within an hour of downtown is experiencing an upward swing, and many have become fantastic. Most without much uniqueness, BTW.

I just don't see this happening in OKC.


Another big contributing factor I failed to mention is the proliferation of very cheap apartment complexes. They spring up everywhere and renters simply choose the newer ones, which means anything older than 20 years goes steadily downhill.

I saw this happen before my own eyes at 122nd & Penn. When all those units were being built you knew it wouldn't take long for them to end up like those on Lyrewood. Takes about 15-20 years.


I just don't see anyone with the City (or surrounding cities) turning down ANY development, let alone considering it in broader context of if it's needed at all or how it's going to look once it is no longer brand new.

The end result is that when something is built, another area of town pays the direct price. And the new stuff in turn will eventually meet the same fate.

I hope that the city leaders are reading this post.

This is one of the best real discussions on Okc talk.

Great observations by all. Agreed!

It should be noted that our mayor lives in the PC district, specifically Lansbrook in the PC North area. He was a couple of years ahead me at Putnam City.

So he knows of which I speak and I bet in a candid conversation would have many of the same observations and concerns.


We haven't quite addressed possible solutions but the first step is always acknowledgement of the problem, and I for one can no longer act like this is all okay.

I love coming into town and seeing all the progress in many areas, but I always leave a little depressed and increasingly worried.

This is from an email from a poster here that would rather not have this put under his name, but has okay-ed my doing it anonymously.

He's younger than me by about 15 years, and what's really interesting is that his parents went to Northwest Classen and saw the same things happen to their neighborhoods.


I really do think most those areas are not going to get better but I think it's important to note this is a repeating pattern in OKC and as many excuses as we may want to make, it will continue to repeat until something is done.


Went to PCW and there is nothing that could get me to move back there. That whole side of town is just as you described it, it’s terrible.

It’s hard to post on that thread what needs to be said without sounding like an elitist or offending the posters that still live there. Especially when you are an outsider. Fact is though, the PC District, like you said is the new NW Classen. PCW is now considered an inner city school and there is not a thing that can be done to save it IMO. There is nothing over in that area that will draw people back in. Again like you stated in that post, it all comes down to the city government and their lack of planning. Way too many apartment complexes have been built and the type of houses that were once nice, but quickly turned into rentals. I used to have several friends that lived in Twin Lakes, there are some really nice homes there, but the Lyrewood apartments have completely destroyed that area. Tulakes is the lowest rated elementary out of all of the PC schools. PC North has some neighborhoods with houses that are too nice/big for them to turn completely
south, but why would anyone like myself move there when you have so many better options in Edmond?

The only reason I ever venture back to NW OKC is for work appointments. And it depresses me every time I go there, nothing but pawn shops and liquor stores down 23rd. There is nothing really that draws people to that side of town (23rd to NW ExpWay) and I just can't imagine it changing at this point. Other areas of OKC that have made a come back have things going for them. Western Ave with the bars/restaurants. Paseo area has the older tudor homes, art district, close to downtown. May Ave between 63rd/122nd has great restaurants, good shops and is easy access to everything.

Lots of complaints from me, with little answers, mainly because I don't think there are any. That area is only going to get worse and as someone who grew up there when it was still a great area, its really really sad. I can't imagine what its like for someone like you or my NW Classen grad parents to see.

... Just some neighborhoods to visit if you want to see the underbelly of OKC:

Will Rogers Courts: SW 15 and Kentucky
Ambassador Courts: SE 15th and High
Prince Hall Village (renamed): NE 23rd and Kelley
Apartments on NE 27-29 and MLK
Area of SW 29th and Portland
Classen Ten/Penn area
Sooner Haven: NE 36th and Kelley
North Highlands: Bordered by Walker to West, Robinson to East, Britton to North and Wilshire to South

...

Can't even think about arguing any of the locations on that list. Only thing to even add is that it's missing similarly interesting locations from the inner NW quad.

A lot of dusty memories were kicked up today. Crud.
:053:

This is from an email from a poster here that would rather not have this put under his name, but has okay-ed my doing it anonymously.

He's younger than me by about 15 years, and what's really interesting is that his parents went to Northwest Classen and saw the same things happen to their neighborhoods.


I really do think most those areas are not going to get better but I think it's important to note this is a repeating pattern in OKC and as many excuses as we may want to make, it will continue to repeat until something is done.

Boy, couldn't have said it any better. There used to bad pockets, now these pockets are merging.

I've been involved in another thread I started about thuggery in my neighborhood ( http://www.okctalk.com/okc-underground/19969-electro-lounge-thug-magnet.html ) caused by Rheas nightclub ("black discoteque"). It's things like this that run people away, one family at a time. It's hard to get business to locate when things start "happening" in a neighborhood. Keep in mind, this problem I described is between NW Expressway and 63rd on N. May Ave! In the Best Buy parking lot! Who would have thought??? It doesn't take much before things fall like dominoes.

One other thing, the "pockets" of bad have turned into "pockets" of good. Linwood Place neighborhood is an example. How long will that last?

I'm only in OKC part-time, but I own a home here, and I am worried. The NW Expressway corridor is one I never thought I would see go downhill, but it's so bad now for stretches of miles, again with pockets of good, instead of the other way around. Pete and his emailer are right to be concerned. And I'll say it again: a lot of it is the "it's not downtown" syndrome. It seems like nothing gets attenetion unless it's downtown. I'm all for a growing center core, but we can't let our city rot around it.

Great discussion here.

I think there's a trend of moving back to the core, and hopefully it will work it's way out from there. I hope the city will take steps to end the sprawl once and for all.


I think these issues are somewhat unique to OKC for several reasons: 1) There are no physical barriers to pushing further and further out. No mountains, bodies of water, limitations on flat, easily buildable land. 2) Traffic is an absolute non-issue. I've never seen a city that has virtually zero traffic jams. I drove downtown from Edmond on a workday in morning rush hour and never even tapped my brakes on the expressway. Made it in about 20 minutes. 3) Homes, by any standard, are cheap. So, it's easy to go buy a shiny new tract home. Apart from a few historical neighborhoods with charm, there is little reason to not buy a newer home. 4) Land is very cheap.

What has kept Dallas from having the same situation, or are we so unique? Maybe they are completely surrounded by suburbs as opposed to OKC having "holes" between Yukon and Edmond, Midwest City and Jones, Moore and Mustang, etc.

JBrown, I think one difference is that Dallas is growing so fast that the growth in the suburbs is not necessarily coming at the expense of the core. There is rejuvenation in the inner city and growth in the outer areas and it's happening at the same time without one necessarily taking from the other. Also, Dallas is already built out and the suburbs are constraining the growth of the city so there is much more infill.

Pete, your posts are among the most dead-on accurate I have ever read on this forum. I have had the same impressions whenever I have come home and could not articulate it any better than you have, so I won't try. In the vein of further "defining the problem," I would speculate that the nature of OKC's layout has exacerbated the situation. In OKC's suburbs, there are four-lane arterial roads every single mile and there is commercial frontage on every single road. There is simply more space for "blobby" strip malls and that keeps land prices low and encourages low density. In St. Louis where I live, the suburbs have main traffic arteries spread three or four miles apart and in between a lot of two lane roads weaving through housing subdivisions. It forces commercial developments into more limited areas and that keeps them full and also encourages redevelopment.

I would also posit that you don't have to have huge vacant big boxes to have problems. In contrast to Pete's friend that e-mailed, I actually think May Avenue looks rather shabby from 63rd to 122nd. You have a huge vacant lot across from Lakehurst that, in its prime location, could be 3 or 4 story high-end condo buildings. You have (at least you did a few months ago) a couple of vacant car dealerships north of Britton and shabby looking retail strips north from there. I have ocassions to visit the Homeland at 122nd and that parking lot is weedy and the paint is peeling, there is little to no landscaping anywhere along that stretch. May Avenue should be the most prized corridor in North OKC. More needs to be done to keep up appearances.

I don't want to be too much of a downer, the positive momentum in OKC is fantastic, but that shouldn't gloss over some real decay in the suburban areas.

I hate to say this, but a lot of the white flight described here is not just bad planning. It's also an unnecessary fear of black people.

Like I said, and no one else has commented on, my neighborhood has a lot of kids and young couples living in it now. Before that, it was elderly people. It also has a decidedly more ethnic mix.

We have lived here for five years and it seems to actually be getting better.

I wonder how many people would consider it "going downhill" because it has more ethnic variety. Not us. We like it, and while the city could see improvement over here, we certainly have no evidence it's getting worse.

Perhaps my neighborhood is not the one everyone is speaking of.

Soonerguru, I don't disagree that there is racism in the world and that it has contributed to OKC's problems. But I don't think racism is the reason that five miles north of Gallardia you have Sonics surrounded by vacant land. I don't think racism is why Memorial Road is a hodge-podge of cheaply designed buildings, or that the structures on May Avenue haven't been kept up well.

A certain amount of this exists in every city but the cheapness of the land, the lack of traffic and the absence of natural barriers has more to do with OKC's sprawl than racism, as horrible as racism is.

Don't be so quick to hurl accusations of racism about. It isn't white flight at this point. It is leaving high crime areas. And once a neighborhood starts going downhill, the schools quickly follow and nothing will move families trying to raise a family faster than bad schools. And businesses don't stay there because no one wants to shop there.

Plenty of people live in diverse neighborhoods with no trouble. I'm living out of state in a lovely neighborhood that is about 50% black. If we weren't going home to OKC, I'd love to stay here. Nice neighbors, they take care of their yards, nice kids. Two miles from here, however, is a neighborhood that is also mixed but the crime is so bad there you don't even completely stop your car at the stop sign.

If you are suggesting that the places go to heck because white people leave, I think that begs the question about what you believe causes blight - surely not black people. I don't think this is fear of black people. It is fear of crime, if anything.

The blight happening is the result of cheap loser property owners nickle and diming everything to death, and the lack of action on behalf of the city. City leaders are indeed going after blight, but not fast enough. They need to tighten, and I mean REALLY tighten requirements on property owners. If they can't handle keeping their property up, or if they can't afford it, fine the crap out of them of force them to sell, or practice eminent domain.

The other problem is crime. Once crime shows up in OKC neighborhoods, poeple pack up, mostly because the problem lingers, even if the police address the problem.

But really, the problem is us. Too many of us. Too many Oklahomans are so self-depricating that instead of caring about what happens in their own backyard, they salivate at other states - namely Texas - and become sellouts. I'm not talking about the people who HAD to move, I'm talking about the people who moved simply because they think Oklahoma City sucks and Dallas is the freakin Lost City of Cibola.

Quite frankly, we need people in Oklahoma City who care, and there are a lot more than their used to be, but I'm angry because the more people tuck tail and run, the more of a disservice it does to our city.

Oklahoma City is our responsibility, and part of our responsibility is making sure we care and making sure our government adopts stringent codes to wiping our blight.

Don't be so quick to hurl accusations of racism about. It isn't white flight at this point. It is leaving high crime areas. And once a neighborhood starts going downhill, the schools quickly follow and nothing will move families trying to raise a family faster than bad schools. And businesses don't stay there because no one wants to shop there.

Plenty of people live in diverse neighborhoods with no trouble. I'm living out of state in a lovely neighborhood that is about 50% black. If we weren't going home to OKC, I'd love to stay here. Nice neighbors, they take care of their yards, nice kids. Two miles from here, however, is a neighborhood that is also mixed but the crime is so bad there you don't even completely stop your car at the stop sign.

If you are suggesting that the places go to heck because white people leave, I think that begs the question about what you believe causes blight - surely not black people. I don't think this is fear of black people. It is fear of crime, if anything.

Well I agree and I don't necessarily think the posters here are racist. I just get sick of talking to otherwise nice, intelligent people who suddenly make comments about how "there are so many blacks" in such and such neighborhood. It happens more frequently than it should, and certainly more so than I would care to admit.

We have some ratty apartments bordering our neighborhood, but we don't have a crime problem. But to someone who lives in some lily-white Edmond enclave, our neighborhood probably looks like Compton.

I just wish responsible property owners in these inner-city 'hoods would show some grit and stick around and be a part of the solution instead of vanishing to some anonymous 'burb. Many do, and they are the ones who will change this pattern. Some of the comments in this thread give comfort to the white flighters, IMO, and perpetuate the negativism and stereotypes.

What our part of town needs is better enforced zoning, infrastructure improvements, and some good-old-fashioned beautification. I was actually hopeful that MAPS 3 would solely focus on transit and beautification, but I've gotten excited about the other projects as time has gone on.

Well I agree and I don't necessarily think the posters here are racist. I just get sick of talking to otherwise nice, intelligent people who suddenly make comments about how "there are so many blacks" in such and such neighborhood. It happens more frequently than it should, and certainly more so than I would care to admit.

We have some ratty apartments bordering our neighborhood, but we don't have a crime problem. But to someone who lives in some lily-white Edmond enclave, our neighborhood probably looks like Compton.

I just wish responsible property owners in these inner-city 'hoods would show some grit and stick around and be a part of the solution instead of vanishing to some anonymous 'burb. Many do, and they are the ones who will change this pattern. Some of the comments in this thread give comfort to the white flighters, IMO, and perpetuate the negativism and stereotypes.

What our part of town needs is better enforced zoning, infrastructure improvements, and some good-old-fashioned beautification. I was actually hopeful that MAPS 3 would solely focus on transit and beautification, but I've gotten excited about the other projects as time has gone on.

It should be noted that even black people moved to the 'burbs for the exact same reason, making the exact same remarks. I should know. My neighbors in Edmond where I grew up shared those sentiments.

It should be noted that even black people moved to the 'burbs for the exact same reason, making the exact same remarks. I should know. My neighbors in Edmond where I grew up shared those sentiments.

Again, I understand not wanting to live in a war zone. But some of these neighborhoods, while declining due to cheap building, poor landscaping, etc., are not necessarily high-crime areas.

I just had an annoying conversation with some distant relatives over the weekend that is sticking in my craw.

I would love to see our city tackle the problem, but I'm actually oddly optimistic. If our city continues to grow (and let's hope MAPS passes, for God's sake), i think these 'hoods will naturally start coming back.

People's tastes and needs change generation to generation and many of these neighborhoods will gradually improve as inner-city or inner-suburban housing demand grows. That, and as I mentioned above, more people decide to stick it out and be a part of the solution before departing to another 'burb and further contributing to the problem.

Although I understand the concern, and realize that we have no natural boundaries to stop the spread of new housing, there will come a point at which it's simply impractical to live any further out. There's open land all the way to Ardmore, but I don't think people will choose to live there and work in Oklahoma City.

The whole key to improving the city is to make the CBD contain more companies and employ more people, as well as encouraging businesses to move closer in. All those awful commercial districts are available land for tear downs and renewals. Most houses, at the right price, can be made attractive to buyers. I still believe that mass transit is the key. Make it easy and faster to travel by rail or bus than by car, or better yet, cheaper, and people will choose to do so. Since mass transit is planned to spread centrifugally, that should make the closer in areas more attractive to buyers, and they will bring the retail. My son renovated a house in Jacksonville that was completely blighted, with crack houses down the street. The city gave tax credits to people buying homes in his neighborhood, as well as outright grants for homebuyers.

All is not lost.

Commercial property owners are not going to spend money to beautify their property beyond what they can get back. It is a business, afterall. It is one thing to go in and clean up a neighborhood that has gone downhill where there are single family homes. COMPLETELY different. You can clean it up, put in little shops and restaurants, etc. We've all seen it done in OKC and in all big cities that have a vision for what can be. We all love to see gentrifrication. Some of the nicest, most charming areas anywhere are the result of that. But they tend to also be on the pricey side when it is all said and done. Which is a huge incentive for home owners to take the risk.

But when you have apartment dwellers, IMO, it ain't going to happen. They don't have a stake in the property beyond rent and the owners aren't going to pump in more money than they can get out of it. Moreover, particularly with low income rent, you aren't going to have an apartment owner trying to beautify the area. Unlike with private homes with home owners who band together with home owners associations, historic districts, etc., improvements are likely to get trashed. It is throwing money away.

From the city's perspective, I can see wanting to rezone and otherwise run off the eyesores but the people living there have to live somewhere. Changing a blighted area to one what is really nice will also raise the rent. The ones living in the slummy parts will just move to another part of town, perhaps 4 - 5 blocks up the road.

I think the solution has to be all about neighborhoods and I mean that in the community of neighbors sense rather than the geographical.

Our residential developments somehow do not foster human connections. We live next to each other or near each other but we barely know each other if at all. Then we build these wide, fast roads that manage to further isolate our already isolated islands of homes.

These roads become our rivers and commerce springs up along them and virtually explodes at the crossings.

But I think there are many people now who begin to appreciate the problems and are looking for better ways to solve them.

Although I understand the concern, and realize that we have no natural boundaries to stop the spread of new housing, there will come a point at which it's simply impractical to live any further out. There's open land all the way to Ardmore, but I don't think people will choose to live there and work in Oklahoma City.

You would have thought that when we hit Memorial Road but as I mentioned, you can go all the way out to 236th all the way to County Line and see still more development. And there is still TONS of vacant land out there in every direction.

And apart from some very limited and specific pockets, the City has been rotting centrically from it's core for decades and I don't see any signs of that abating whatsoever. Why do people assume families will start moving back into borderline neighborhoods when ample history says otherwise?


I don't buy the race thing apart from when the OKC schools were forced-bused in the 60's. But the Putnam City schools were still lilly white when people started leaving for Edmond and far, far NW OKC.


And why is Dallas different? As I mentioned before: TRAFFIC. If you live too far out and still have to get downtown, your commute is a nightmare. This just isn't the case anywhere in OKC. People living way the heck out in Edmond or NW OKC can fly down Portland to the Lake Hefner Parkway or Broadway Extension, Kilkpatrick Turnpike or I-35.


And I do agree about people not being connected to each other or their neighborhoods. No new homes should be built without sidewalks and there should be sidewalks and/or trails along every section line road. We need people OUT of their cars and homes and out being active and interacting.

Isn't this just attrition? Really aren't there just so many areas of historical/nostalgic worth? Do we as citizens have to placate every swinging Joe that visits our city and wishes for the "good old days. I'm late to respond to Pete, but I can't see how his driving around and surveying modern day inner city collateral damage amounts to any sort of insight. This is drivel.

Areas of town that fall by the wayside do so because they're old, outdated, inefficient or again, just plain old. These are areas that go largely unused, and unvisited by anybody because Urban sprawl dictates so. Entropy, man, entropy.

This is nothing to take note of. Poor planning? C'mon storefronts will always be vacated and left to dissolve, neighborhoods (for what used to be the working class) are no longer efficient for a large demographic of today's working class. This is what goes on. People who live in areas such as these are worth no less than people who live elsewhere, but if their area cannot sustain growth, then it should be left to fend for itself.

Coming into a city to visit, and noticing how deplorable an area has grown to be, or citing how unhappy you are as a visitor because you took some "off the beaten path" tour of areas not meant to be tourist havens, is ridiculous.

At some point collectively we will have to stop caring about every-thing that is little more than even inconvenient. Don't go to places that don't offer anything. Probably those who live there don't either.

Areas of town that fall by the wayside do so because they're old, outdated, inefficient or again, just plain old.

We're talking about areas that just one generation were considered the best in town and were mostly developed in the 60's and 70's -- and even the 80's and 90's.

And these are huge chunks of OKC, not just a couple of neighborhoods.


But I respect your insight MGE -- it's the perfect demonstration of the throw-away mentality that leads to and perpuates the situations described.

But I respect your insight MGE -- it's the perfect demonstration of the throw-away mentality that leads to and perpuates the situations described.

Wow, really snarky.

It is what it is friend. I'll not bring the issue of MAPS III to this discussion (because its can be beaten to death on other threads) except to say this: It is precisely for the preservation of a historical/nostalgic area of town that this initiative is underway.

The rest of the city, areas that do not draw from anything other than indigenous population is in fact "throw away." It is the transient nature of life on earth. We make some sites histrorical, and others, simply history. 10 or 15 years is enough for an area to totally atrophy in worth let alone things built in the 60's as you cite. Why do you debate it? Someone who values all things can truly see the worth in nothing. These aren't wetlands man, the spotted owls have all flown the nest. Next time you leave, take your nostalgia with you, we're too busy moving on here.

Wow, really snarky.

Next time you leave, take your nostalgia with you, we're too busy moving on here.

You DO know Pete owns and runs this message board, you ass? Moderators, don't even say a word to me because I am about to pop open a name calling can of whoopass. That was rude and completely uncalled for. Pete is a class act and his post didn't call for that even if he wasn't providing this forum.

Hrmph!!!

Wow, really snarky.

It is what it is friend. I'll not bring the issue of MAPS III to this discussion (because its can be beaten to death on other threads) except to say this: It is precisely for the preservation of a historical/nostalgic area of town that this initiative is underway.

The rest of the city, areas that do not draw from anything other than indigenous population is in fact "throw away." It is the transient nature of life on earth. We make some sites histrorical, and others, simply history. 10 or 15 years is enough for an area to totally atrophy in worth let alone things built in the 60's as you cite. Why do you debate it? Someone who values all things can truly see the worth in nothing. These aren't wetlands man, the spotted owls have all flown the nest. Next time you leave, take your nostalgia with you, we're too busy moving on here.

Wow, you're like really deep, man.

I refuse to believe that this trend which I think almost everyone recognizes and worries over is inevitable. Nor do I believe that we cannot improve areas which have declined.

Many of the things we have learned about our downtown can just as easily be applied to our outlying neighborhoods.

We are still a rather young, smallish city.

Wow, really snarky.

I truly didn't mean it that way but you seem determined to make this personal, as you did from your first post. Let's get off that track and stick to talking about OKC.


What I meant is there is no doubt many people feel the way you do otherwise we wouldn't see what has been described in this thread. It's been allowed to happen without much outcry -- or at least the organized type.

ggrrrrrr.

Pete and Flinty

But why do we have to cry out? No building nor community can outlive its intended purpose and that's why we have terms like "starter home" and "taxpayer" - to reflect the transience of said structure. It is noted in other threads that building and developing is based on speculation, why fight the inherent downside of such logic?

It would be terrific if we could've kept Will Rogers Court apts. from evolving from military housing, to section 8 housing, but eventually it did. Times changed, the airpark shut down, things moved forward, and that area stayed still. Why fight it? Just drive around it.

How can the things learned downtown apply to every area that you get all "misty" over? No one will buy into your proposition to revitalize a portion of the city that doesn't return. This fight is fought and sometimes something gets spared, for example, the hideous eyesore which is the Golden Dome. Good for those who fought that fight, I'll continue to choke back my disdain for that building and its lack of foreseeable taste because somehow it was voted "in." Don't tell me that every strip mall and convenience store should be saved and defended, because parts of the city look bad.

I don't think it is inevitable. When my family moved to MWC in the 60's our neighborhood was really nice and new. When I graduated in 1978 it was still that way. Somewhere after that, the decline began, and the families of friends that we grew up with started the migration out. By the time my first child was born in 1982, it had declined to the point that my wife wasn't comfortable leaving her at my parents house. This was mainly due to the leader of the local gang living next door. But the whole neighborhood was falling into disrepair and decline as the houses were becoming rent houses instead of homes. The remaining elders in the neighborhood started a watch program. My father was its first prez. Then they started pushing back. It took people of all racial and socio-economic backgrounds, but it started working.
Last year, when my dad passed away, he had some of the best neighbors he'd had since moving there. My brothers and I still check in on them and they still call us when they need help.
It's not the "Leave it to Beaver" place that I grew up in, but it's alot better than where it was headed in the 90's. It takes people who care enough to stay and put in the effort. It also takes the help of local law enforcement. Those are the two things that turned my old neighborhood around.

Pete and Flinty

But why do we have to cry out? No building nor community can outlive its intended purpose and that's why we have terms like "starter home" and "taxpayer" - to reflect the transience of said structure. It is noted in other threads that building and developing is based on speculation, why fight the inherent downside of such logic?

It would be terrific if we could've kept Will Rogers Court apts. from evolving from military housing, to section 8 housing, but eventually it did. Times changed, the airpark shut down, things moved forward, and that area stayed still. Why fight it? Just drive around it.

How can the things learned downtown apply to every area that you get all "misty" over? No one will buy into your proposition to revitalize a portion of the city that doesn't return. This fight is fought and sometimes something gets spared, for example, the hideous eyesore which is the Golden Dome. Good for those who fought that fight, I'll continue to choke back my disdain for that building and its lack of foreseeable taste because somehow it was voted "in." Don't tell me that every strip mall and convenience store should be saved and defended, because parts of the city look bad.In order to solve a problem we have to first recognize there is one and then we have to try to understand why the problem developed in the first place.

I think we do have neighborhoods that have managed to preserve an identity and provide secure and pleasant homes for their residents. Some of these are are rather small and surrounded by less desirable places.

I think we can study these areas and what we learn can help us in better planning for our future.

I can also tell you for certain that development is not based on speculation. Developers build what can be sold within parameters largely established by outside forces. One such constraint is definitely the City code. But there are other constraints, too, that are at least as important. All of that is simply to say there are several voices that have to be heard and appreciated in this process.

I don't think it is inevitable. When my family moved to MWC in the 60's our neighborhood was really nice and new. When I graduated in 1978 it was still that way. Somewhere after that, the decline began, and the families of friends that we grew up with started the migration out. By the time my first child was born in 1982, it had declined to the point that my wife wasn't comfortable leaving her at my parents house. This was mainly due to the leader of the local gang living next door. But the whole neighborhood was falling into disrepair and decline as the houses were becoming rent houses instead of homes. The remaining elders in the neighborhood started a watch program. My father was its first prez. Then they started pushing back. It took people of all racial and socio-economic backgrounds, but it started working.
Last year, when my dad passed away, he had some of the best neighbors he'd had since moving there. My brothers and I still check in on them and they still call us when they need help.
It's not the "Leave it to Beaver" place that I grew up in, but it's alot better than where it was headed in the 90's. It takes people who care enough to stay and put in the effort. It also takes the help of local law enforcement. Those are the two things that turned my old neighborhood around.
I largely agree with your post.

I only am trying to add that the nature and planning of the physical neighborhoods can add to the experience of community.

As an example many people I know view police officers with suspicion and distrust. I think in part at least this is due to the fact that so many people really do not personally know anyone who is an officer. Again to me I see a lack of human connection. So anything that can help develop relationships I think is to be commended and has to be a part of any solution.

Wambo

I hope that I haven't overstepped, or oversimplified in my previous post. I believe strongly in the type of movement that you described.

My contention is that it is a "from within" sort of initiative. Every citizen has the right and some might say obligation to protect their investments wether it be neighborhood, or neighborhood store, but it is only sustainable if a mojority of the locals are behind it.

I find it silly to gripe and moan about sprawl and decline in areas that affect no one other than those who call them home, and in whom there resides no want for change. Why do we have to rescue someone from a fate of their own making? What is so remarkable about the average community that we should feel so inclined as to fight their fights?

Flinty

I agree, and perhaps I should direct this at Peter as well, that planning is key and communication is paramount. I feel that this idea of retrofitting poorly planned and downtrodden parts of this city is unnecessary, profligate and irresponsibly expensive by its very nature. Areas of town are personified obviously by those who live in them, if there is fight in them, we won't need to look for it....