I will be voting yes on 12-8 for Maps 3, so Downtown can get better looking and hoping it puts this city on the map more than it has gotten as of late.

However, when it comes time to voting, I always get worried that what I hope passes, won't pass.

I really want core-to-shore to happen, and if it looks anything like the concept art, it will be very nice looking in place of what's around there now.

So with all that said, can anyone tell me if they really believe this will pass? With all of the opposition out there for MAPS3, does anyone feel this will be a victory for those who want MAPS3 to pass, or a failure?

Any facts as to why anyone thinks it will pass, please brief me. I need hope.

So with all that said, can anyone tell me if they really believe this will pass? With all of the opposition out there for MAPS3, does anyone feel this will be a victory for those who want MAPS3 to pass, or a failure?

I've said a number of times that notwithstanding some interesting issues, many of which could have been avoided with little effort, MAPs3 will pass, but it'll be a closer vote than in the past.

As to all the opposition ... lots of screeching, lots of volume from a few speakers, but thus far the polls do not support the NAYS have the numbers to bring about a victory for their position, but they do appear closer than some think.

It's not a good election for either side to think they do not need to bother going to the polls that day.

The original MAPS was anything but a sure thing, passing by 54% of the vote. I expect this one will be in the same percentage range but who knows which side will come out on top. I haven't heard any polls. All you or I or anyone can do is go the polls and cast your vote as you see fit. I'm a Yes vote. I have 3 yard signs up.

I don't think we will have any problems passing MAPS until the city finally screws one of them up

One component in this MAPS vote that hasn't been prominent in other MAPS elections is the organized opposition that can actually put boots on the ground in a get out the vote operation. Anybody in politics will tell you these elections are about GOTV. I think it will be close, but I think it will pass.

I'll say it again, I hate being put in this position by our city leaders. This hasn't been a highlight reel for Good Government. On principle I would normally vote NO on something so vague needing so much blind faith in politicians. This should have been laid out with more specific language and without having to resort to using rhetorical trickery to "explain" that away. I trust our city leadership (for the most part) but when big dollars are involved there's always the possibility, if not probability, of mischief.

People aren't blind, they have seen the progress with the MAPS initiatives. I have confidence it will pass.

Despite misgivings on how it has been handled, I think it's very important to vote YES on December 8th!

I'm not very confident it will pass. I have a really bad gut feeling, but then again I'm not at ground zero so I might not know for sure. I hope it does.

It's tough when the fire and police unions come out with everything they've got to oppose it. You know that every police officer and firefighter in OKC has been instructed to vote against it.. how many people is that? Tack that on to the Big League City vote and shave 10% off of the yes margin, and that'll be the final outcome.

I'm not very confident it will pass. I have a really bad gut feeling, but then again I'm not at ground zero so I might not know for sure. I hope it does.

It's tough when the fire and police unions come out with everything they've got to oppose it. You know that every police officer and firefighter in OKC has been instructed to vote against it.. how many people is that? Tack that on to the Big League City vote and shave 10% off of the yes margin, and that'll be the final outcome.

Perhaps, but what some folks tell their handlers, and what line they actually mark on a ballot when the handler ain't standing there, can often be different (applies to both sides) All in all, we have lots of passive/aggressive types in the state, including in the metro.

And it may fail, but I'm doubtful it will. Likewise I also doubt it'll be any kind of a major kick tail YES vote. 3-4 points max in the vote spread sounds about right, a mere squeeker for the city.

Anyone know if there is an absentee ballot form? I will be traveling for work on the 7th and 8th and need to cast my vote...

I think the police and fire unions' efforts will make an impact -- of about two percentage points. Turnout will be a factor. The polling I'm aware of seems pretty solid, even after the other side got busy.

One thing to keep in mind is that Mayor Cornett is very popular -- more so than Kirk Humphries. The pro-MAPS ads are just starting to hit and the anti-MAPS people don't have the money to compete in the air war.

The print ads I've seen aren't very good, but I got a pretty nice piece of direct mail at home today and saw a nice TV spot with people from various neighborhoods talking about how important MAPS is to the city.

Anyone know if there is an absentee ballot form? I will be traveling for work on the 7th and 8th and need to cast my vote...

Yes, an absentee is available but you must act quickly! Also, if you aren't already registered to vote, that deadline has passed.

Keep OKC Moving - Vote Yes for MAPS on December 8! (http://www.yesformaps.com/vote.html)

Absentee Voting
The deadline to apply for an absentee ballot is rapidly approaching! Your county election board must receive your absentee ballot application form via mail, fax or hand-delivery (if yours is the name on the form; you may not deliver an application for someone else) by 5 PM Wednesday, Dec. 2 if you want to vote by mail. Your county election board must then receive your ballot before 7 PM on Dec. 8 to be counted. If an absentee ballot is mailed to you, you must return it by mail also. See the state election board’s page on absentee voting for more details.

Absentee Voting (http://www.oklahomacounty.org/electionboard/AbsenteeVoting.htm)

Oklahoma County Election Board | 4201 N. Lincoln Boulevard | Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 73105-5201
Phone (405) 713-1515

I hope it passes and I don't even live there.

The original MAPS was anything but a sure thing, passing by 54% of the vote. I expect this one will be in the same percentage range but who knows which side will come out on top. I haven't heard any polls. All you or I or anyone can do is go the polls and cast your vote as you see fit. I'm a Yes vote. I have 3 yard signs up.

I totally agree with Doug. I think the side that motivates the most people to turn out on Dec. 8 will win the election. Mark me in the Yes column.

Saw some "Yes" yard signs with a different design while out and about here in OKC. Look better than the others with that weird color combination.

Vote Yes December 8th!

I think the police and fire unions' efforts will make an impact -- of about two percentage points. Turnout will be a factor. The polling I'm aware of seems pretty solid, even after the other side got busy.

One thing to keep in mind is that Mayor Cornett is very popular -- more so than Kirk Humphries. The pro-MAPS ads are just starting to hit and the anti-MAPS people don't have the money to compete in the air war.

The print ads I've seen aren't very good, but I got a pretty nice piece of direct mail at home today and saw a nice TV spot with people from various neighborhoods talking about how important MAPS is to the city.

The tv ads are great, but that and expensive electronic billboards are virtually the only presence the campaign has. People haven't been too willing to put signs in their yard, or for whatever reasons (we've heard multiple accounts of dirty campaigning by the no people the signs are just disappearing. That doesn't bode too well when someone might be undecided and all they see are these 'Not this MAPS' signs appearing everywhere in the city. It gives you the false impression that the city overwhelmingly disapproves of MAPS.

I hope you're right, that Cornett's overwhelming popularity becomes a factor. But how many people voted in that election? Not very many, and not nearly as many will vote in this election. How many of those yes votes were likely city employees (fire and police) who now want that elusive 2% raise in the middle of a recession? The most terrifying prospect of all--how many people in OKC don't even care about city politics and city progress, but they're so tuned into right wing talk radio and they hear that "big govt is on the march in OKC" and without even knowing the facts they're just going to turn out en masse to oppose it?

For those reasons I don't think MAPS 3 will pass. The fact that more people are going to be voting in this election, including a lot of people who are new to city politics and are just viewing it in a divisive national politics kind of paradigm, and there are thousands of public safety workers alone. That's going to be a big voting block, at least 10% of the vote probably. If MAPS 3 does pass, it will be even closer than MAPS 1 was.

We put a sign in our yard and at our business but not without a little trepidation on my part. Both of our signs are on busy streets and are highly visible and I guess I am just worried about the seemingly aggressive campaign style of the NO side.

I don't think u need to worry too much about the notthismaps people. Considering most of them are Police and Firefighters. But i guess u never know

[QUOTE=Spartan;275054] How many of those yes votes were likely city employees (fire and police) who now want that elusive 2% raise in the middle of a recession?

What would it take to get the raise myth eradicated from this thread? How about a public statement, a promulgation (if you will) that we will gladly give back our raises for more personnel. Wait, we already did that.
What about numerous public safety employees that are not union presidents or officers posting on this very site that they could care less for money at this time, if manning is brought up to operational standards that do not fly in the face of safety? Wait, just read any thread on this site that pertains to MIII.
Please, we all know that positions = money. For the nth time could we not simply lay to rest the assertion that this is for personal gain? Its personnel gain we're after.

. How many of those yes votes were likely city employees (fire and police) who now want that elusive 2% raise in the middle of a recession?

There you go spreading misinformation. If you don't know this is an out and out lie then you haven't done your research. Even the mayor has quit spreading this lie because he was called on it, finally. Try to at least back your position with facts. It takes a little longer but think of the self satisfaction.

Well let me correct myself. Your union, which you pay dues to represent you, has been making public statements about not getting the 2% raise you have gotten every year (calling it a 2% pay cut). I am sorry for making the mistake, but it wouldn't be the first time that there was a misunderstanding when a union was involved.

As for personnel increases, that's not what your union is balking about. But I've said before, as a separate issue we should definitely be looking at public safety personnel and whether our current numbers are adequate.

Obviously increasing numbers in any department of the city is going to have to coincide with increased revenues. We aren't going to get increased revenues without two things first happening: first we need to recapture the retail market that's been shifting to Moore, Norman, Yukon, Mustang, Edmond, and MWC. As a major US city we can do this by bringing retail back to downtown.

Second we need to lay a foundation for continued economic development. We run the risk of economic stagnation at a time in our nation when you can't afford to be economically stagnant if we do not invest in economic development NOW. We have to keep planning for the future.

We have to continue to evolve as a city, competing with bigger and better cities, in order to provide for the best quality of life and economic opportunities that we owe to the nation's proudest citizens. If we become complacent with our current infrastructure and amenities we will become stagnant, we will slip into the recession, our revenues will continue to decline, our retail will relocate to Edmond or Norman, the economy in Central Oklahoma will continue to move backwards, our public safety issues will multiply, we will have to cut back on budgets for everything including public safety, and we will be back to where we were in 1990.

Nobody wants that. Keep the momentum. Vote for MAPS 3. Go OKC.

Sparticus

You are wrong about the raise, and 2% every year is inconsistent with the truth. MIII is to be completed in 7.5 years or so. Then we can feel the economic impact. As of now, we are in a transition. A growth phase if you like. If we want to keep from slipping into recession, perhaps we should look to "now" sorts of tactics. MIII is banking on the future, and the best years of current MAPS haven't kept the pace with the payback schedules thus far. Again, who wouldn't love to have some of those amenities? Imagine the fun we could have together, me in my running shoes and you perhaps in a fashionable pair of rollerblades as we glide down aureate sidewalks paved in precious stones, but the plain hard real fact is, public safety cannot take a hit for our snowcones on lazy afternoons.

MGE, actually the city will feel the economic impact of MAPS III not in 7.5 years (as you stated) but in reality as soon as it passes and certainly when the first project is completed; say a year or so.

While I feel for public safety and agree to some extent that the MAPS III was very rushed and should have been layed out better - I DO NOT think the public safety officers should have taken their position against MAPS III.

Is there truly one public safety official who does not really want MAPS III to pass? I bet the answer is no, because it will only improve OKC - which should improve the city (and therefore the city's cash coffers). What the city does with the increased collections is another story and like this opposition should be a separate issue from MAPS III.

Like was said, we have seen what MAPS and MAPS III (and MAPS I.5) have done for the city, MAPS III will give the city another shot in the arm right when it is needed (during the worst recession since the worst recession/1932).

I am not a city resident, but I have visited OKC many times since becoming an expat and I KNOW you all MUST PASS MAPS III. OKC is not the type of city that could get things done with private investment alone. Not yet!

But I think MAPS III puts OKC solidly in place with it's new peers and the convention center alone (if done right) will increase the city's profile and tax collections. The park will remove a ghetto blighted area between the city's crown jewels (the cbd districts and the river). The streetcar would connect all of downtown so that we could have a critical mass - which translates into RETAIL!!!!!!!!!!!! The finishing of the sidewalks (and lighting) would make it possible to have true transit usage and walking in this city. ...

Those 4 projects alone, stand to move OKC to the next tier - where OKC should actually already have been. This was mentioned in the Tulsa boards, that for the longest time OKC didn't realize it's potential but JUST NOW - IS. OKC was always bigger and never should have had to 'compete' with the smaller sibling - but with incompetence; OKC did - and mostly lose in the national scene.

Now, OKC has made HUGE steps forward and is a player, but we can NOT rest on our laurels and certainly not for the claims that the NO people are making. yes, I agree that there should have been more transparency on this - BUT the fact that there wasn't doesn't mean we shouldn;'t pass it

Instead, the fact that there wasn't more transparency means MORE PEOPLE NEED TO BE INVOLVED WITH CITY POLITICS IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!! instead of waiting on a critical election then complaining about how it was done.

As was said, the city leaders have proved they care about the city. And if done correct, these projects will make OKC into a true Tier II player and should spur the RETAIL projects downtown that we all want.

Police/Fire, I feel for you - but now is NOT the time. Despite what your unions are saying, vote YES - but tackle your problems with the city at a later venue.

For heaven's sake (DONT BECOME TULSA'S PUNK again),

VOTE YES!!!!!!

Spartan,
Way to try and twist the truth. The 2% that is referred to is the cuts that ALL city departments will have to deal with starting Jan. 1 regardless of whether Maps 3 passes or fails. The memo from the city manager came out the day they announced Maps would be on the ballot again. You obviously don't have any insight as to how the negotiations process between the unions and city progress. If you have questions I would be happy to educate you along with proof from both sides. Stop spreading lies about things you have limited knowledge of......let's get back to the issue of why we shouldn't vote for This Maps.

Those 4 projects alone, stand to move OKC to the next tier - where OKC should actually already have been. This was mentioned in the Tulsa boards, that for the longest time OKC didn't realize it's potential but JUST NOW - IS. OKC was always bigger and never should have had to 'compete' with the smaller sibling - but with incompetence; OKC did - and mostly lose in the national scene.


Just curious, but could you show me either on the ballot or the MAPS3 proposal that says they'll actually build any one of those 4 projects?

I don't mean a general list of things they'd -like- to build, but which ones they definately, 100%, positively will build.

Well let me correct myself. Your union, which you pay dues to represent you, has been making public statements about not getting the 2% raise you have gotten every year (calling it a 2% pay cut). I am sorry for making the mistake, but it wouldn't be the first time that there was a misunderstanding when a union was involved.

As for personnel increases, that's not what your union is balking about. But I've said before, as a separate issue we should definitely be looking at public safety personnel and whether our current numbers are adequate.

Obviously increasing numbers in any department of the city is going to have to coincide with increased revenues. We aren't going to get increased revenues without two things first happening: first we need to recapture the retail market that's been shifting to Moore, Norman, Yukon, Mustang, Edmond, and MWC. As a major US city we can do this by bringing retail back to downtown.

Second we need to lay a foundation for continued economic development. We run the risk of economic stagnation at a time in our nation when you can't afford to be economically stagnant if we do not invest in economic development NOW. We have to keep planning for the future.

We have to continue to evolve as a city, competing with bigger and better cities, in order to provide for the best quality of life and economic opportunities that we owe to the nation's proudest citizens. If we become complacent with our current infrastructure and amenities we will become stagnant, we will slip into the recession, our revenues will continue to decline, our retail will relocate to Edmond or Norman, the economy in Central Oklahoma will continue to move backwards, our public safety issues will multiply, we will have to cut back on budgets for everything including public safety, and we will be back to where we were in 1990.

Nobody wants that. Keep the momentum. Vote for MAPS 3. Go OKC.

Once again, please get your facts straight. You keep speaking from a position of ignorance as if it is a position of fact.
For starters there is no 2% pay increase to be fought over. We already won that. And it wasn't 2%. More like 1.2%. And we have offered to give it back for more manning.
Maybe what your thinking about is the 2% budget cuts that the City Manager has asked for. That would mean cutting 40 positions from the FD. The same FD that is currently running at manning levels lower than they were in 1994. With a 3% budget cut in the wings for mid year. How's that for momentum?
The argument that increased manning should coincide with increased revenues, the manning cuts have come at times of increased revenue. So much for that argument.
As far as this not being about staffing issues, once again, even the Mayor has stopped parroting that lie. Your welcome to keep saying it, as anyone who has kept up with this forum knows it to be false.
No need to apologize about your misunderstanding about unions. It's fairly obvious you don't want facts to alter your preconcieved opinions about unions.

What is unfortunate Wambo is the use of a public initiative as a lobbying tool. Being primarily a Democrat, I normally support unions. But is the lack of how to use power wisely and negotiate with our elected officials responsibly that totally turns me and many of your regular supporters off.

It is a complete mis-use and lack of political skill that defies all logic.

What is unfortunate Wambo is the use of a public initiative as a lobbying tool. Being primarily a Democrat, I normally support unions. But is the lack of how to use power wisely and negotiate with our elected officials responsibly that totally turns me and many of your regular supporters off.

It is a complete mis-use and lack of political skill that defies all logic.

Again, it is unfortunate that you might change your opinion of us based on this issue. Public initiative has been used to challenge us for years.

Yearly we sit down to negotiations with a city who wishes to do harm to standards that are necessary for proper and safe functioning of the Public Safety services. Yearly the City chooses to push us back. Not a fault of theirs, because theirs is a job of counting beans and making sense of large numbers in trying times. This year in particular, the city chose to kill all hopes of good faith negotiations with fire while simultaneously pushing an initiative that would take tax monies and distribute them to luxury items.

We want the trust of the citizens we serve and who pay our paychecks. We do not like to fight, but this public initiative as you termed it was used to club us at the negotiating table. The city is attempting to bludgeon us with this public sentiment, all the while backing us into a position with no other reprisal than a counter on this stage. We cannot strike, will not strike because that goes contrary to the oathes we all took, and took seriously. What we have is good faith negotiations.

The city is trying to wrest the only card we have left, public opinion, when in reality, their non-committal to good faith talks is what let you down. They refuse to adhere to a plan in their proposal, circumlocution, tapdances around spending your money and at the same time they deny the dire circumstances in which PS finds itself today.

Why would you let them spend your money in such a manner?

Yes, an absentee is available but you must act quickly! Also, if you aren't already registered to vote, that deadline has passed.

Keep OKC Moving - Vote Yes for MAPS on December 8! (http://www.yesformaps.com/vote.html)

Absentee Voting
The deadline to apply for an absentee ballot is rapidly approaching! Your county election board must receive your absentee ballot application form via mail, fax or hand-delivery (if yours is the name on the form; you may not deliver an application for someone else) by 5 PM Wednesday, Dec. 2 if you want to vote by mail. Your county election board must then receive your ballot before 7 PM on Dec. 8 to be counted. If an absentee ballot is mailed to you, you must return it by mail also. See the state election board’s page on absentee voting for more details.

Absentee Voting (http://www.oklahomacounty.org/electionboard/AbsenteeVoting.htm)

Oklahoma County Election Board | 4201 N. Lincoln Boulevard | Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 73105-5201
Phone (405) 713-1515

Thanks for the info, I'll be getting my yes vote faxed in Monday!

Your rhetoric amazes me. MAPS expands the sales tax revenue. It is a proven vehicle for doing so. Thus your share of the pie is automatically expanded.

When people are losing their insecure jobs, who need work.... If MAPS passes it means a combined 1.6 Billion in reinvestment with the Devon contsruction in our community.

If someone wants a job shoveling sand it will be available. I have found my personal experiences with Police and Fire to be extraordinary. They do their jobs well here.

But this is the wrong time for UNION selfishness. Average people need jobs/MAPS creates jobs. So enough with the selfish woe was us bolded rhetoric.

Your rhetoric amazes me. MAPS expands the sales tax revenue. It is a proven vehicle for doing so. Thus your share of the pie is automatically expanded.


Once again, you are ignoring history. The position we find ourselves in today came during very good economic times for the city. You might want to call your City Manager and ask him what happened to the windfall we were supposed to see from the other MAPS proposals. Ask him what promises were made to get the PS employee unions to donate tens of thousands of dollars to promote and advertise for previous MAPS ballots. Then ask him why they weren't kept when our "share of the pie was automatically expanded".
Your logic is sound. Unfortunately it's not the way the city management conducts business.
I agree, there is never a good time for these types of skirmishes. But this is where we find ourselves.

wambo, I just think there should be another venue for it instead of this MAPS vote.

why don't you all just sit down and duke it out next year? What does MAPS have to do with your issues? Isn't it really solely against the mayor and the establishment?

And I asked the question on a different thread, but I will ask you - could they just revise the contractural obligation of overtime by instead hiring X number of officers/firefighters so you all can have your free time? ...

couldn't this work (but also wouldn't it be a HUGE financial blow to the average public safety worker)?

I mean, really - what is this opposition really all about????

wambo, I just think there should be another venue for it instead of this MAPS vote.

why don't you all just sit down and duke it out next year? What does MAPS have to do with your issues? Isn't it really solely against the mayor and the establishment?

And I asked the question on a different thread, but I will ask you - could they just revise the contractural obligation of overtime by instead hiring X number of officers/firefighters so you all can have your free time? ...

couldn't this work (but also wouldn't it be a HUGE financial blow to the average public safety worker)?

I mean, really - what is this opposition really all about????

We do sit down and duke it out every year. We have a mechanism for deciding our wages that the city brought to us and we agreed to. Guess what? Every year they fight us over the wage mechanism that they came up with. That's the mentality we deal with day in and day out.
The overtime is not a contractural obligation, it's federal law.

What is this opposition really all about? The same day the city announced the MAPS vote they also sent a memo to all departments asking for a 2% cut with a 3% cut to come later. The initial 2% will mean 40 positions gone from the FD. An FD that's already operating at manning levels lower than they were in 1994. IMO voting for this MAPS is like asking for a loan to buy a 3rd car when you can't afford to maintain the 2 you already have.

Sparticus

You are wrong about the raise, and 2% every year is inconsistent with the truth. MIII is to be completed in 7.5 years or so. Then we can feel the economic impact. As of now, we are in a transition. A growth phase if you like. If we want to keep from slipping into recession, perhaps we should look to "now" sorts of tactics. MIII is banking on the future, and the best years of current MAPS haven't kept the pace with the payback schedules thus far. Again, who wouldn't love to have some of those amenities? Imagine the fun we could have together, me in my running shoes and you perhaps in a fashionable pair of rollerblades as we glide down aureate sidewalks paved in precious stones, but the plain hard real fact is, public safety cannot take a hit for our snowcones on lazy afternoons.

Isn't this the kind of speech that a charismatic Latin American dictator gives to his parliament when the funding bill comes around?

I hope it passes. MAPS has been great for OKC and we need to keep going.

All I can say is I will be voting yes for the sole fact why should I live in a city and not give to something that has given to me for the past 31 years?

Why should I be selfish, ask for something, but not help pay for it?

Why should I want to walk in this new central park, but ask others to pay for it, while I use it freely?

That sounds greedy to me. So I will say yes, pay 1 penny more yet again, if it means new things for the city I love.

We put a sign in our yard and at our business but not without a little trepidation on my part. Both of our signs are on busy streets and are highly visible and I guess I am just worried about the seemingly aggressive campaign style of the NO side.

Typical union thuggery. There, I said it.

Interesting to note:

Reports of uniformed police "harrassing" (probably a bit too strong of a word) City employees who were picking up "NOT THIS MAPS" signs during the City's Sign Sweep week, even though said signs were ILLEGALLY PLACED (per City ordinance) in public rights of ways, medians, etc.

I have also been told directly of one account where non-uniformed police officers are showing their police badges when pushing out information on NOT THIS MAPS.

I mentioned in another thread where a co-worker left for work with two YES FOR MAPS signs in his yard; came back from work to find them missing, and NOT THIS MAPS info taped to his front door. A neighbor of his verified that NOT THIS MAPS folks were out canvassing the neighborhood that day.

I'm not saying this doesn't happen on both sides of the issue fence. We see it happen all the time during political/party campaigns.

Here, however, I think some police & fire folks (NOT ALL) are using their status as a means of pushing their agenda through their perceived "power." It's a subtle way of intimidation, but works on many people.

I for one won't buy into it.

On another note, however, there is such a thing as the "squeaky wheel gets the grease" scenario happening. Not sure that traditional campaigning is always the best route. Would love to see more "grass roots" efforts by the Chamber, in addition to their advertising. Too many people seem to be muddled by the fear tactics of the NTM campaign, and are confusing rhetoic with facts.

Typical union thuggery. There, I said it.

Interesting to note:

Reports of uniformed police "harrassing" (probably a bit too strong of a word) City employees who were picking up "NOT THIS MAPS" signs during the City's Sign Sweep week, even though said signs were ILLEGALLY PLACED (per City ordinance) in public rights of ways, medians, etc.

I have also been told directly of one account where non-uniformed police officers are showing their police badges when pushing out information on NOT THIS MAPS.

I mentioned in another thread where a co-worker left for work with two YES FOR MAPS signs in his yard; came back from work to find them missing, and NOT THIS MAPS info taped to his front door. A neighbor of his verified that NOT THIS MAPS folks were out canvassing the neighborhood that day.

I'm not saying this doesn't happen on both sides of the issue fence. We see it happen all the time during political/party campaigns.

Here, however, I think some police & fire folks (NOT ALL) are using their status as a means of pushing their agenda through their perceived "power." It's a subtle way of intimidation, but works on many people.

I for one won't buy into it.

On another note, however, there is such a thing as the "squeaky wheel gets the grease" scenario happening. Not sure that traditional campaigning is always the best route. Would love to see more "grass roots" efforts by the Chamber, in addition to their advertising. Too many people seem to be muddled by the fear tactics of the NTM campaign, and are confusing rhetoic with facts.

wow, that's almost as bad as the City Manager threatening small businesses that dare to put No signs in their windows.

wow, that's almost as bad as the City Manager threatening small businesses that dare to put No signs in their windows.


No way! Not da big scary cittee managerr!! I wasn't even aware of small businesses that support the NTM side. I mean, anti-MAPS is pretty much anti-business, after all.

wow, that's almost as bad as the City Manager threatening small businesses that dare to put No signs in their windows.

Threatening with what exactly?

Threatening with what exactly?

He's never proven it ever happened. He just said it did.

We do sit down and duke it out every year. We have a mechanism for deciding our wages that the city brought to us and we agreed to. Guess what? Every year they fight us over the wage mechanism that they came up with. That's the mentality we deal with day in and day out.
The overtime is not a contractural obligation, it's federal law.

What is this opposition really all about? The same day the city announced the MAPS vote they also sent a memo to all departments asking for a 2% cut with a 3% cut to come later. The initial 2% will mean 40 positions gone from the FD. An FD that's already operating at manning levels lower than they were in 1994. IMO voting for this MAPS is like asking for a loan to buy a 3rd car when you can't afford to maintain the 2 you already have.

And this differs from ANY union contract negotiation in what way? If you negotiate it every year and you approve it, what are you bitching about it somehow having a connection to MAPS3? It sounds like you are shooting yourself in the foot with your wage negotiations and shooting yourself in the foot with a "no" MAPS vote, too!

He's never proven it ever happened. He just said it did.

who's never proved it happened? I didn't originate the story. I just went to Hobby's Hoagies for lunch today and verified that it happened.

iron76hd posted a phone number for the deli that any one of you can call to verify the story, the info he posted is here: http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-area-talk/19957-mark-shannon-his-anti-maps3-diatribe-4.html

or better yet, you can visit the Hobby's Hoagies between 3rd & 4th on Walker, on the opposite side of the street from the Goodyear shop.


Now then, show us some confirmation of all these incidents of Police harassment. I've seen nothing concrete. Prove it is happening.

There's no video on Mark Shannon's site that I can find and there is no link or copy of any email about such an incident. I don't plan to call the place because he could be full of crap. Its innuendo without proof.

There's no video on Mark Shannon's site that I can find and there is no link or copy of any email about such an incident. I don't plan to call the place because he could be full of crap. Its innuendo without proof.

The exact same thing can be said about every single one of these accusations of the police harassing Yes voters, or badges being flashed, or signs being stolen.

The difference is that you were given a number and a location where you can go verify that a small business was being harassed by the City Manager and you choose to ignore it. You choose to not call or visit and keep your head in the sand.

It blows me away that Yes people will accept anything said which is derogatory toward the No side without even a question, but you require video proof of an action that can be verified simply by calling or visiting a store simply because it shows the Yes side in a way you can't accept.

If this thing actually passes and the City Council starts writing checks to the Ford center, or to a Marketing firm, or to some shady construction company that doesn't have any employees, what sort of stories will you people spin to make yourselves feel better about the fact that you just got raped for $777 million.

How about this: Given the choice of cops or city managers, which would you be more inclined to believe is using blackmail, intimidation, and other evil methods of persuasion?

The exact same thing can be said about every single one of these accusations of the police harassing Yes voters, or badges being flashed, or signs being stolen.

The difference is that you were given a number and a location where you can go verify that a small business was being harassed by the City Manager and you choose to ignore it. You choose to not call or visit and keep your head in the sand.

I agree and I don't put that much credence in those claims, either. I have no doubts that signs are being removed simply because I know it happens all the time in political campaigns. But I imagine its happening to both sides. As far as phone numbers, I'm not interested in calling it because to me, its a moot point.


It blows me away that Yes people will accept anything said which is derogatory toward the No side without even a question, but you require video proof of an action that can be verified simply by calling or visiting a store simply because it shows the Yes side in a way you can't accept.

My issue with the "no" side here is that I believe the police and fire issue are totally separate issues from MAPS. As I said, voting "no" on this and then expecting the city to suddenly start listening to the union gripes isn't going to happen. They will repackage MAPS3 and put it out again. Union gripes are something to take up first with your council man/woman and then the mayor. If they aren't responding, then put up your own candidate.


If this thing actually passes and the City Council starts writing checks to the Ford center, or to a Marketing firm, or to some shady construction company that doesn't have any employees, what sort of stories will you people spin to make yourselves feel better about the fact that you just got raped for $777 million.

It won't happen because as happened with past MAPS programs there will be an oversight committee(s) that will ensure the money is being spent for what was intended. There weren't examples of shady dealings with previous MAPS, if anything, the construction company's displayed extraordinary willing ness to work with the city (example was, I think, BOLT Construction that realized they made a multi-million dollar error on their bid for the Ford Center but instead of looking for more money, they voluntarily ate the error).

If questions arise as to how the money is spent, your council reps and the mayor will be there to answer to it. You can always try to recall them if their behavior is grossly out of line.

You express fears that have been proven thru M1 and M4K not to occur. In fact, the politicians have done a great job getting pretty good bang for the buck on those programs. Why, suddenly, would things change?

How about this: Given the choice of cops or city managers, which would you be more inclined to believe is using blackmail, intimidation, and other evil methods of persuasion?

Given the choice? I'd go with the plethora of MAPS3 supporters who continue to post unsubstantiated allegations.

I don't for one second believe that the police are using blackmail and intimidation. Mainly because I'm willing to give anyone the benefit of the doubt, until they prove otherwise. So far, I've seen zero proof of the police acting in such a manner.

On the other hand, I personally verified the story about the city manager, I've read the OK constitution and seen how the ballot circumvents it. I've seen what the rest of the City looks like compared to downtown and see absolutely no reason why we need to spend so much money beautifing an already vibrant area while the rest of the city goes to pot.

This is getting ridiculous.

YES.

... almost as bad as the City Manager threatening small businesses that dare to put No signs in their windows.

I recall seeing a post elsewhere on the board relating to a sandwich shop or a diner downtown. So that one small business is I presume included in yur reference. It's the only one I've heard such a reference about here, or elsewhere for that matter.

As you are someone who has repeatedly asked others to provide you a listing of private developers who favor MAPs3, I'm hopeful you might be so kind as to provide a listing of the other small businesses you are aware of based on your reference to multiple businesses.

Or was the reference to businesses perhaps incorrect?

It happens, and I'm curious to know which is correct in this instance. i doubt I'm alone in that regard.

I recall seeing a post elsewhere on the board relating to a sandwich shop or a diner downtown. So that one small business is I presume included in yur reference. It's the only one I've heard such a reference about here, or elsewhere for that matter.

As you are someone who has repeatedly asked others to provide you a listing of private developers who favor MAPs3, I'm hopeful you might be so kind as to provide a listing of the other small businesses you are aware of based on your reference to multiple businesses.

Or was the reference to businesses perhaps incorrect?

It happens, and I'm curious to know which is correct in this instance. i doubt I'm alone in that regard.

Yes, I was referring to Hobby's Hoagies downtown, I mispoke when I said "businesses".

Yes, I was referring to Hobby's Hoagies downtown, I mispoke when I said "businesses".

Appreciate the clarification.

I am a non resident who favors MAPs3.
I firmly believe no MAPs3 supporter should threaten anyone regarding their decision on how to vote.
I firmly believe no Not This MAPs supporter should threaten anyone.

Discuss, attempt to persuade, within reason? Sure, that's advocacy.
Threaten or cause harm? Nah, shouldn't happen.

Sorry guys I voting NO , not this maps. Its just not right for the city at this time.

Sorry guys I voting NO , not this maps. Its just not right for the city at this time.

NO, say it ain't so mrbob!!! Game over, man. Game over.

Sorry guys I voting NO , not this maps. Its just not right for the city at this time.

OK. I'll bite. Say Mr. Bob, why is it not right for the city at this time?

Vote NO!

Vote YES!

Vote NO! why would you vote yes?

Vote NO! why would you vote yes?

What are you benefiting from by voting no? MAPS and M4K put this city on the map and MIII will continue the momentum.

Mpas didnt put this city on the map, 1993 tornado, 1999 bombing did. none around the country knows anything about okc maps. why do we want to be like chicago or New york. If you want to become big like htat you better start increasing ff wages by i dont know over 100%. go look at their wages for chicago, go look at cost of living, yeah thats where i want to be where it cots and arm and a leg to live there.

Look the "dissapearing" sings were illegaly placed signs, even in your front yard, yes your front yard they have to be so far off the curb r they ar illegal. did you go down and see all the signs they picked up. over 90% not for maps signs and the city was calledout on it and it stopped.

I have gone door to door for hours talking to people. the city might have the moeny adn they need it. they dont have people who have heart, who are going and talking to the citizens, they have to BRIBE their helpers with thunder tickets. if its so good why arent yes epopel going oout f their way like the not for maps. thats right cause they dont really care. they are mostly found in the housing areas around walker and nw 15th. they are too good for the less fortunate people in okc.

honestly people i have talked to i have gotten a 94% vote no rate with many signs being placed. Yes it si going to be close, like the Bush election. I dont think either side has a clear margin of victory. Sorry but with the people i talked to they didnt realize that so many people ar against maps and now that they are they are also stepping forward. they relaize they arent the only ones. Maps will fail. the city will go back and rewrte it and this time include the money for manpower, better streets and other infrastructure, and it will pass.

Did you know that the jail is over crowded and within the next year our taxes possibly property taxes will be going up to fix our jail because the fed governemnt is forcing our hand.

You little roll call of people on theses threads really frustate me but the more i look at the names the more i relaize it is the same people in different threads saying the samething even spreading the same lies. just like our mayor, whom is nothing more than a CEO of a bank whom just got stimulus money and is now giving himself and his friends a bonus. but thats ok. you wealthy people can have your mayor and your attempt to trick and lie to the citizens, while the blue collar people who have something to LOSE. OUR JOBS. will continues to come rushing lights and sirens to your needs when you dial 911 and treat you like you are our own family and help you when you are indistress. you may not have had to deal with fire or police when you needed help yet but that time would come. and i pray that you or a family memember is not in serious life position and you have to wait for someone to come and be there for them or you because we had to close 2 engines.

look at firehouse magaizen. we have some of the busiest engines and trucks in the NATION. that should say something.

really point is i hope maps fails and i hope that we can get it figured out. i would love to use some of the features of maps but not during a recession where i have to worry about if i am going ot have a job to support my family after christmas. just not worth it.

Mpas didnt put this city on the map, 1993 tornado, 1999 bombing did. none around the country knows anything about okc maps. why do we want to be like chicago or New york. If you want to become big like htat you better start increasing ff wages by i dont know over 100%. go look at their wages for chicago, go look at cost of living, yeah thats where i want to be where it cots and arm and a leg to live there.

Look the "dissapearing" sings were illegaly placed signs, even in your front yard, yes your front yard they have to be so far off the curb r they ar illegal. did you go down and see all the signs they picked up. over 90% not for maps signs and the city was calledout on it and it stopped.

I have gone door to door for hours talking to people. the city might have the moeny adn they need it. they dont have people who have heart, who are going and talking to the citizens, they have to BRIBE their helpers with thunder tickets. if its so good why arent yes epopel going oout f their way like the not for maps. thats right cause they dont really care. they are mostly found in the housing areas around walker and nw 15th. they are too good for the less fortunate people in okc.

honestly people i have talked to i have gotten a 94% vote no rate with many signs being placed. Yes it si going to be close, like the Bush election. I dont think either side has a clear margin of victory. Sorry but with the people i talked to they didnt realize that so many people ar against maps and now that they are they are also stepping forward. they relaize they arent the only ones. Maps will fail. the city will go back and rewrte it and this time include the money for manpower, better streets and other infrastructure, and it will pass.

Did you know that the jail is over crowded and within the next year our taxes possibly property taxes will be going up to fix our jail because the fed governemnt is forcing our hand.

You little roll call of people on theses threads really frustate me but the more i look at the names the more i relaize it is the same people in different threads saying the samething even spreading the same lies. just like our mayor, whom is nothing more than a CEO of a bank whom just got stimulus money and is now giving himself and his friends a bonus. but thats ok. you wealthy people can have your mayor and your attempt to trick and lie to the citizens, while the blue collar people who have something to LOSE. OUR JOBS. will continues to come rushing lights and sirens to your needs when you dial 911 and treat you like you are our own family and help you when you are indistress. you may not have had to deal with fire or police when you needed help yet but that time would come. and i pray that you or a family memember is not in serious life position and you have to wait for someone to come and be there for them or you because we had to close 2 engines.

look at firehouse magaizen. we have some of the busiest engines and trucks in the NATION. that should say something.

really point is i hope maps fails and i hope that we can get it figured out. i would love to use some of the features of maps but not during a recession where i have to worry about if i am going ot have a job to support my family after christmas. just not worth it.

I stopped reading your post after the 5th or 6th sentence.. your not making any sense.

Mpas didnt put this city on the map, 1993 tornado, 1999 bombing did. none around the country knows anything about okc maps. why do we want to be like chicago or New york. If you want to become big like htat you better start increasing ff wages by i dont know over 100%. go look at their wages for chicago, go look at cost of living, yeah thats where i want to be where it cots and arm and a leg to live there.

Look the "dissapearing" sings were illegaly placed signs, even in your front yard, yes your front yard they have to be so far off the curb r they ar illegal. did you go down and see all the signs they picked up. over 90% not for maps signs and the city was calledout on it and it stopped.

I have gone door to door for hours talking to people. the city might have the moeny adn they need it. they dont have people who have heart, who are going and talking to the citizens, they have to BRIBE their helpers with thunder tickets. if its so good why arent yes epopel going oout f their way like the not for maps. thats right cause they dont really care. they are mostly found in the housing areas around walker and nw 15th. they are too good for the less fortunate people in okc.

honestly people i have talked to i have gotten a 94% vote no rate with many signs being placed. Yes it si going to be close, like the Bush election. I dont think either side has a clear margin of victory. Sorry but with the people i talked to they didnt realize that so many people ar against maps and now that they are they are also stepping forward. they relaize they arent the only ones. Maps will fail. the city will go back and rewrte it and this time include the money for manpower, better streets and other infrastructure, and it will pass.

Did you know that the jail is over crowded and within the next year our taxes possibly property taxes will be going up to fix our jail because the fed governemnt is forcing our hand.

You little roll call of people on theses threads really frustate me but the more i look at the names the more i relaize it is the same people in different threads saying the samething even spreading the same lies. just like our mayor, whom is nothing more than a CEO of a bank whom just got stimulus money and is now giving himself and his friends a bonus. but thats ok. you wealthy people can have your mayor and your attempt to trick and lie to the citizens, while the blue collar people who have something to LOSE. OUR JOBS. will continues to come rushing lights and sirens to your needs when you dial 911 and treat you like you are our own family and help you when you are indistress. you may not have had to deal with fire or police when you needed help yet but that time would come. and i pray that you or a family memember is not in serious life position and you have to wait for someone to come and be there for them or you because we had to close 2 engines.

look at firehouse magaizen. we have some of the busiest engines and trucks in the NATION. that should say something.

really point is i hope maps fails and i hope that we can get it figured out. i would love to use some of the features of maps but not during a recession where i have to worry about if i am going ot have a job to support my family after christmas. just not worth it.

Seriously?

The 1999 bombing?

The 1993 Tornado?



wow.