Undoubtedly it is obvious that I support MAPS. I'm support it for the fantastic transit initiative.

So I'm curious as to where people are seeing opposition fliers.

I was at the Civic Center this morning and received this flier put out by Wanda Jo Stapleton and followers.





GOT AN EXTRA $930?
MAPS 3 sales tax will cost about $930 for the average OKC resident. About $10 per month for this 93-month project. (Based on an economic analysis conducted by Dr. Mark Snead, OSU, for the Oklahoma City Finance Department).

Mayor Cornett asked OKC residents what they wanted: They said: Transit (light rail, streetcars, etc.) and Infrastructure, including streets. See results on website: MAPS 3 | Oklahoma City (http://www.maps3.org/factsheet.html)

What we’re getting!
OKC’s 3rd convention center (in addition to Cox Convention Center and the Ford Center)
70-acre park downtown. Why? A request by Devon Energy.
Irresponsible destruction of the Union Station Rail Yard---After ignoring thousands of requests to save OKC’s Union Station rail yard from destruction, the OKC Council is asking for our MAPS 3 sales tax money for “a downtown transit hub which will link streetcar, commuter rail and bus systems” – exactly the reason Union Station’s invaluable, irreplaceable rail yard was built in the first place.

VOTE NO – MAPS 3, DECEMBER 8
Citizen Patriots, P.O. Box 19863, OKC 73144


Is anybody else getting these?

I haven't seen these fliers, but their case is WEAK.

And when they speak of "rail yards," are they just talking about the old railroad tracks? Oh yeah, there's something important to save. The Union Station building isn't being threatened is it? I could understand objections to demolishing the building, but not so much the tracks. Makes no sense.

I haven't seen these fliers, but their case is WEAK.

And when they speak of "rail yards," are they just talking about the old railroad tracks? Oh yeah, there's something important to save. The Union Station building isn't being threatened is it? I could understand objections to demolishing the building, but not so much the tracks. Makes no sense.

Oh, I think at one time they had a very legitimate argument. However the majority of the Union Station rail yard advocates have abandoned the battle over the station yard and have moved on.

It seems that this group wants to leverage the past to attack the MAPS proposal which is unfortunate. No matter what your opinion is about Union Station, it is a war that has been waged and lost.

Not to mention that the new convention center is not OKC's third convention center. Ford Center is not a convention center. Cox isn't even really a convention center. It's a medium-sized sports arena flanked by small exhibit halls.

Real convention centers don't have arenas, and if they do, the are VERY, VERY small, like the Maxwell Convention Center in Tulsa.

I haven't seen these fliers, but their case is WEAK.

And when they speak of "rail yards," are they just talking about the old railroad tracks? Oh yeah, there's something important to save. The Union Station building isn't being threatened is it? I could understand objections to demolishing the building, but not so much the tracks. Makes no sense.

Actually, the yards are worth huge bucks if we were ever to develop a true light rail system. Search the forum and you'll find many threads on this issue, good points pro and con.

I don't like how either side has opposed/promoted MAPS 3. I agree with Doug about the obvious conflict of interest in the publisher of The Oklahoman leading the campaign in a public role for MAPS 3. That's just plain WRONG and obviously so. That same newspaper has been horrible about coverage of something this big. It's all part of the plan. Build it up and you get a bigger vote turnout which they do not want.

I am going to vote 'Yes' but am disappointed to see such arrogance and secrecy on the part of our city leaders. This is like the 'good old days', and that's not good. I feel, (like many), put in a position of supporting principles of good government or a stalling of the progress. I resent that greatly, but will vote YES.

Am I being played like a fiddle? Yes, I am. All of us are. But we aren't in a position to make demands at this late date as to transparency. Like I said, I really resent the position I am placed in.

With reservations, but I'm voting YES!

Take solace in that if we get this thing passed, the three modern streetcar systems in other US cities have seen a minimum $10 to $1 return on the investment in their systems. SO, even if you hate the rest of the proposal or how its handled, let'em have it as the streetcar will bring in a billion in development by itself.

I am for transit because it is a healthier lifestyle and quite frankly I am tired of so much of my money going to gas, asphalt, and parking. But the economic return is an undeniable benefit that surpasses the MAPS initiative by itself.

Plus there is $10 million in there for a hub and commuter rail to start the regional system.

I wsih lived in OKC right now, because I would vote YES. HOWEVER... I would write the powers that be and let them know my feelings about the importance of police and fire protection. That needs to be their next focus.

I'm not sold on the public safety campaign against MAPS 3 for the reason that they are throwing their weight around on something that doesn't even involve a tax increase (we've been paying 8.375% for ten years now, I think by now the tax rate should be worn in), and they are harping about a problem that warrants a permanent funding source, not a slice of the MAPS 3 pie.

I agree OKCPulse. For one thing, the decision a few years ago to renovate the Oklahoma City Police Headquarters versus building a new one was a horrible choice. Our department headquarters is a laughingstock for a city this size.

The $930 figure makes me smile. $10/month for 93 months... that's next-to-nothing. Plus, it's an existing sales tax rate, so it's not another chunk out of income.

But the thing I don't get is the rail yard portion. Maps 3, other than the park, doesn't have anything at all to do with the rail yard. Red herring!

They're getting desparate if they're bringing up the railyard....has nothing to do with MAPS. Is Tom Elmorw behind this push? Lol!

And I can't say someone is very credible if they call the Ford Center a convention center....it's a sports arena, not a convention center.

GOT AN EXTRA $930?


Fortunately for us the majority of voters will answer yes to this question

Okay, I don't get the math.

If a 1% tax costs $10 monthly per average resident, then the full State/City tax rate (4.5% State, 3.875% City) of 8.375% costs the average resident $83.75 a month. To get to that number in State/City taxes, the average resident would have to make $1,000 of taxable purchases monthly... for a family of three $3,000 in monthly or $36,000 in annual purchases that are subject to sales tax (which excludes mortgage payments, auto payments, etc.). This seems way high and there's no way this makes sense if you are looking only at personal, individual, taxpayers.

,,

Actually, the yards are worth huge bucks if we were ever to develop a true light rail system. Search the forum and you'll find many threads on this issue, good points pro and con.

I don't like how either side has opposed/promoted MAPS 3. I agree with Doug about the obvious conflict of interest in the publisher of The Oklahoman leading the campaign in a public role for MAPS 3. That's just plain WRONG and obviously so. That same newspaper has been horrible about coverage of something this big. It's all part of the plan. Build it up and you get a bigger vote turnout which they do not want.

I am going to vote 'Yes' but am disappointed to see such arrogance and secrecy on the part of our city leaders. This is like the 'good old days', and that's not good. I feel, (like many), put in a position of supporting principles of good government or a stalling of the progress. I resent that greatly, but will vote YES.

Am I being played like a fiddle? Yes, I am. All of us are. But we aren't in a position to make demands at this late date as to transparency. Like I said, I really resent the position I am placed in.

With reservations, but I'm voting YES!
A couple of things ... I've not yet updated my blog's postings in these regards but will do so shortly.

The Oklahoman's Coverage. Surprisingly (and pleasantly so) the past couple of days have seen what I think to be solid journalism at the Oklahoman vis a vis reporter John Estus. A big improvement, and I'll give credit where credit is due. I'm still watching to see if his stuff was a aberrational blip ... or if he gets fired or throttled ... or if the Oklahoman has elected to let its reporters actually report.

The closely-held process which led to the MAPS 3 proposal. Sure, there were times that public input was available, but not after spring 2009, contrary to my understanding of what the mayor said would occur. Either (a) I'm mistaken and he didn't commit to spring-summer citizen input, or (b) he changed his mind and didn't tell us.

The 2 recent press conferences. Today, I've spent a good bit of time comparing, side by side, the mayor's 11/12 press conference with the NotThisMaps press conference on 11/13, and I'll be making a new blot post about that shortly. I've not yet completed my thinking about either or both together, but my preliminary observations are:

Neither side is being particularly respectful of the other, and that's not a good thing. Isn't anyone willing to take the high road?

In my opinion, the worst culprit of the lot in this regard, city or anti-coalition press conferences, was Phil Sipe, president of the Firefighters union. In his comments yesterday, while he obviously had a sympathetic audience in the building that the Firefighters union occupies (where the press conference was held), he was full of cheap shots and misleading remarks in some of what he had to say. For example,


He argued against "giving a blank check to a bunch of politicians." Like ... being a politician is a blemish on one's character ... like he's not being a politician, himself, right now ... like the mayor and city government, per the earlier Gazette/News9 poll, are not held in high esteem by the public, which the poll showed they were, remarkably so. Flash back to pre-1993-MAPS, and Sipe could easily have been voicing the identical rhetoric that he did yesterday. He looks good in his cowboy hat and he is good at speaking to and rallying those who agree with him already, but his presentation is clearly emotionally, and not intellectually based ... at least that's how he comes across to me.

Like his remark about the purity of the unions ... they are not in it for themselves but because of their devotion to Oklahoma City. Right. While I don't doubt that they like their city, I do doubt that they became firefighters and/or policemen for the reason that they saw it as their life-roles to devote themselves in some feigned love affair with OKC to the city that they loved. Like most of the rest of us, they needed jobs and that (police/fire) was the job that gave them personal satisfaction. Kids dream of being cops or fire fighters, and that's all good. But it's wrong for Sipe to try and characterize police/firefighter motivation as being up on some sort of a grand pedestal, superior to the place of mere "politicians."

Like his remark, about the offer presented by the city to the firefighters, that the union rejected the "30 pieces of silver," making like the city was Pontias Pilate and that the union was not about to be Judas.

Like his remark that the city should be more focused on fixing pot-holes, as though the city's earlier bond election isn't presently involved in substantially repaving and improving our city's streets.
I'll have more to say shortly, and the city does not have unblemished hands, to be sure (like the mayor's much earlier mis-characterization of the union position as being not being about anything other than wages). One could expand the pro-MAPS 3 list of outrageous comments by going back to the 1st Chamber "Breaking Through" luncheon when, at the end, David Thompson offered his view that if MAPS 3 did not pass that the city would be set back 10 years. Sure thing, David -- the last 10 years progress suddenly vanishes on 12/8/2009 if MAPS 3 doesn't pass and we are transported back in time to 1999. The last 10 years of the city's development gets a fast flush and it never happened. What an idiotic thing for him to say.

There's plenty of hyperbole, and lack of respect for the others' viewpoint and position all the way around. Enemies are being made in this public process.

And that's sad.

One of the products of original MAPS, and then MAPS for Kids, what the convergence of citizen pride, trust in government, business willingness to invest, which occurred following the fruition of original MAPS & MAPS for Kids being profoundly realized. Today, with publicly thrown cheap shots all around, one wonders if that worthwhile alliance between government, business, and citizens that has led to so much good for the city might be in harms way.

Enough for now. I'm not done thinking, but I'm troubled for my city about how this deal is publicly progressing.

Undoubtedly it is obvious that I support MAPS. I'm support it for the fantastic transit initiative.

So I'm curious as to where people are seeing opposition fliers.

I was at the Civic Center this morning and received this flier put out by Wanda Jo Stapleton and followers.





GOT AN EXTRA $930?
MAPS 3 sales tax will cost about $930 for the average OKC resident. About $10 per month for this 93-month project. (Based on an economic analysis conducted by Dr. Mark Snead, OSU, for the Oklahoma City Finance Department).

Mayor Cornett asked OKC residents what they wanted: They said: Transit (light rail, streetcars, etc.) and Infrastructure, including streets. See results on website: MAPS 3 | Oklahoma City (http://www.maps3.org/factsheet.html)

What we’re getting!
OKC’s 3rd convention center (in addition to Cox Convention Center and the Ford Center)
70-acre park downtown. Why? A request by Devon Energy.
Irresponsible destruction of the Union Station Rail Yard---After ignoring thousands of requests to save OKC’s Union Station rail yard from destruction, the OKC Council is asking for our MAPS 3 sales tax money for “a downtown transit hub which will link streetcar, commuter rail and bus systems” – exactly the reason Union Station’s invaluable, irreplaceable rail yard was built in the first place.

VOTE NO – MAPS 3, DECEMBER 8
Citizen Patriots, P.O. Box 19863, OKC 73144


Is anybody else getting these?

There are several oppositon pockets around the city, not just the polce and fire. Yes voters research the penny tax history and you will find that in it's best year in good economic times it only brought in 92 million, so they are claiming it will bring in 100 million a year so they are already not be straight shooters. If it passes which I seriously doubt then when it expires they will either forget some projects or ask for another extension. Has one pro maps statement every discussed the order in which they will start with these projects,no. The first project will be the project that was desired by the wealthiest contributor to the pro maps campaign. Bennett, Nichols, Norick, Humphreys, Thompson, etc.; place your bet on which one of these elite wealthy will get their project started first. Also the convention center estimated cost only includes a part of the convention center, not the full price and where is the rest of the coming from to finish this, please enlighten me. Talk to Council Walters if you want to know the full story on Maps 3because the rest of them will only tell you what you want to hear. The past Maps 3 informational meetings made attendees write thier questions down ahead of time and that was so they would only answer the one's that would benefit them.

Sorry Doug, but all of the above comments were made by the FOP president. And I'm sorry that this suprises you. Those of us who have been dealing with the city for years know this is business as usual for them. I would venture to say your not through being suprised.

Sorry Doug, but all of the above comments were made by the FOP president. And I'm sorry that this suprises you. Those of us who have been dealing with the city for years know this is business as usual for them. I would venture to say your not through being suprised.
Did I get the fire/police roles reversed? Is the guy who wore the the cowboy hat the in the 11/13 press conference the FOP president? If so, thanks for the correction. A pic of they fellow who made the comments I mentioned is below:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/maps3_11_13_2.jpg

Did I say that I was surprised by what either side said in the press conferences? I don't think that I did, but feel free to quote what you find that I said in that regard and I'll stand corrected. I did say that I was pleasantly surprised by a couple of solid Oklahoman articles by John Estus, but that's a different "surprise" than what you said I said.

Neither side is being particularly respectful of the other, and that's not a good thing. Isn't anyone willing to take the high road?


There's plenty of hyperbole, and lack of respect for the others' viewpoint and position all the way around. Enemies are being made in this public process.

And that's sad.

One of the products of original MAPS, and then MAPS for Kids, what the convergence of citizen pride, trust in government, business willingness to invest, which occurred following the fruition of original MAPS & MAPS for Kids being profoundly realized. Today, with publicly thrown cheap shots all around, one wonders if that worthwhile alliance between government, business, and citizens that has led to so much good for the city might be in harms way.

Enough for now. I'm not done thinking, but I'm troubled for my city about how this deal is publicly progressing.

Excellent observations. Really does make me think back to the way the City was about the time I left. Makes me very sad.

I've wondered myself if we simply cannot keep ourselves as a society from continually repeating the past. We just never seem to learn.

Depressing.

I agree OKCPulse. For one thing, the decision a few years ago to renovate the Oklahoma City Police Headquarters versus building a new one was a horrible choice. Our department headquarters is a laughingstock for a city this size.So you think that was a bad decision, maybe it was. Who made that choice?

So you think that was a bad decision, maybe it was. Who made that choice?

City Council made the choice when determining what projects would be listed for the 2007 GO Bond Election, based on what a hired consultant said it would cost the City to complete the necessary upgrades or new construction.

Did I get the fire/police roles reversed? Is the guy who wore the the cowboy hat the in the 11/13 press conference the FOP president? If so, thanks for the correction. A pic of they fellow who made the comments I mentioned is below:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/maps3_11_13_2.jpg

Did I say that I was surprised by what either side said in the press conferences? I don't think that I did, but feel free to quote what you find that I said in that regard and I'll stand corrected. I did say that I was pleasantly surprised by a couple of solid Oklahoman articles by John Estus, but that's a different "surprise" than what you said I said.

No, you are correct that you didn't say suprised. When you said it troubled you how this was progressing publicly I missread something into it. Sorry.
Like I said though, this is par for the course under this city manager. First they offer you a deal that they know you won't accept. When you reject their offer they come out to eviscerate you. We've come to expect it.

Yes that is the FOP president. Phil doesn't look that good in a cowboy hat.

I wsih lived in OKC right now, because I would vote YES. HOWEVER... I would write the powers that be and let them know my feelings about the importance of police and fire protection. That needs to be their next focus.

I'm not sold on the public safety campaign against MAPS 3 for the reason that they are throwing their weight around on something that doesn't even involve a tax increase (we've been paying 8.375% for ten years now, I think by now the tax rate should be worn in), and they are harping about a problem that warrants a permanent funding source, not a slice of the MAPS 3 pie.You could still write that letter even though you don't live here. That would be nice and much appreciated. Maybe someday you will find your way back to OKC. That would be nice as well. But if you do, would you wait until after the vote? (I kid)

Maybe someday you will find your way back to OKC.

My return to OKC is already set in stone.

GOT AN EXTRA $930?
MAPS 3 sales tax will cost about $930 for the average OKC resident. About $10 per month for this 93-month project. (Based on an economic analysis conducted by Dr. Mark Snead, OSU, for the Oklahoma City Finance Department).

Mayor Cornett asked OKC residents what they wanted: They said: Transit (light rail, streetcars, etc.) and Infrastructure, including streets. See results on website: MAPS 3 | Oklahoma City (http://www.maps3.org/factsheet.html)

What we’re getting!
OKC’s 3rd convention center (in addition to Cox Convention Center and the Ford Center)
70-acre park downtown. Why? A request by Devon Energy.
Irresponsible destruction of the Union Station Rail Yard---After ignoring thousands of requests to save OKC’s Union Station rail yard from destruction, the OKC Council is asking for our MAPS 3 sales tax money for “a downtown transit hub which will link streetcar, commuter rail and bus systems” – exactly the reason Union Station’s invaluable, irreplaceable rail yard was built in the first place.[/B]

Total BS!! The Union Station rail yard has absolutely nothing, NOTHING to do with Maps 3. Not only is it a done deal, but it's because of I-40, which is in no way whatsoever related to this vote. And OnTrac has endorsed MAPS 3.

And I don't know where this idea came from about Devon requesting the central park. Clearly these people are so misguided and misinformed, they don't know the difference between the Myriad Gardens makeover (not MAPS-related) and the new central park.

They also try to make it sound like we are NOT getting the infrastructure and transit.

If someone tries to hand me one of these, they better be ready for a 30 minute conversation about their ignorance.

I've wondered myself if we simply cannot keep ourselves as a society from continually repeating the past.

http://www.thethoughts.co.uk/images/leoben_2.jpg

All of this has happened before, and all of it will happen again.

A couple of things ... I've not yet updated my blog's postings in these regards but will do so shortly.

The Oklahoman's Coverage. Surprisingly (and pleasantly so) the past couple of days have seen what I think to be solid journalism at the Oklahoman vis a vis reporter John Estus. A big improvement, and I'll give credit where credit is due. I'm still watching to see if his stuff was a aberrational blip ... or if he gets fired or throttled ... or if the Oklahoman has elected to let its reporters actually report.

The closely-held process which led to the MAPS 3 proposal. Sure, there were times that public input was available, but not after spring 2009, contrary to my understanding of what the mayor said would occur. Either (a) I'm mistaken and he didn't commit to spring-summer citizen input, or (b) he changed his mind and didn't tell us.

The 2 recent press conferences. Today, I've spent a good bit of time comparing, side by side, the mayor's 11/12 press conference with the NotThisMaps press conference on 11/13, and I'll be making a new blot post about that shortly. I've not yet completed my thinking about either or both together, but my preliminary observations are:

Neither side is being particularly respectful of the other, and that's not a good thing. Isn't anyone willing to take the high road?

In my opinion, the worst culprit of the lot in this regard, city or anti-coalition press conferences, was Phil Sipe, president of the Firefighters union. In his comments yesterday, while he obviously had a sympathetic audience in the building that the Firefighters union occupies (where the press conference was held), he was full of cheap shots and misleading remarks in some of what he had to say. For example,


He argued against "giving a blank check to a bunch of politicians." Like ... being a politician is a blemish on one's character ... like he's not being a politician, himself, right now ... like the mayor and city government, per the earlier Gazette/News9 poll, are not held in high esteem by the public, which the poll showed they were, remarkably so. Flash back to pre-1993-MAPS, and Sipe could easily have been voicing the identical rhetoric that he did yesterday. He looks good in his cowboy hat and he is good at speaking to and rallying those who agree with him already, but his presentation is clearly emotionally, and not intellectually based ... at least that's how he comes across to me.

Like his remark about the purity of the unions ... they are not in it for themselves but because of their devotion to Oklahoma City. Right. While I don't doubt that they like their city, I do doubt that they became firefighters and/or policemen for the reason that they saw it as their life-roles to devote themselves in some feigned love affair with OKC to the city that they loved. Like most of the rest of us, they needed jobs and that (police/fire) was the job that gave them personal satisfaction. Kids dream of being cops or fire fighters, and that's all good. But it's wrong for Sipe to try and characterize police/firefighter motivation as being up on some sort of a grand pedestal, superior to the place of mere "politicians."

Like his remark, about the offer presented by the city to the firefighters, that the union rejected the "30 pieces of silver," making like the city was Pontias Pilate and that the union was not about to be Judas.

Like his remark that the city should be more focused on fixing pot-holes, as though the city's earlier bond election isn't presently involved in substantially repaving and improving our city's streets.
I'll have more to say shortly, and the city does not have unblemished hands, to be sure (like the mayor's much earlier mis-characterization of the union position as being not being about anything other than wages). One could expand the pro-MAPS 3 list of outrageous comments by going back to the 1st Chamber "Breaking Through" luncheon when, at the end, David Thompson offered his view that if MAPS 3 did not pass that the city would be set back 10 years. Sure thing, David -- the last 10 years progress suddenly vanishes on 12/8/2009 if MAPS 3 doesn't pass and we are transported back in time to 1999. The last 10 years of the city's development gets a fast flush and it never happened. What an idiotic thing for him to say.

There's plenty of hyperbole, and lack of respect for the others' viewpoint and position all the way around. Enemies are being made in this public process.

And that's sad.

One of the products of original MAPS, and then MAPS for Kids, what the convergence of citizen pride, trust in government, business willingness to invest, which occurred following the fruition of original MAPS & MAPS for Kids being profoundly realized. Today, with publicly thrown cheap shots all around, one wonders if that worthwhile alliance between government, business, and citizens that has led to so much good for the city might be in harms way.

Enough for now. I'm not done thinking, but I'm troubled for my city about how this deal is publicly progressing.

Doug, it is sad, I agree. If your not done thinking, if your still collecting your thoughts. If you would, please consider incorporating these facts into your thought process.

The Firefighters, who are Citizens of OKC, are prideful Citizens. I have been one for 55 years. Frankly speaking, I wish every one of them were Citizens, a lot of them are not, but a lot of us are.

Trust in Government is very hard to maintain when time after time your trust has been betrayed. I would like nothing more than being able to provide you with examples over a cup of coffee. You could decide for yourself if they are valid.

No doubt, business has shown a willingness to invest. However, I would be remiss if I do not remind you that the Firefighters, not the Union, invested not only their time but also their money as well in MAPS 1 and MAPS2. While Union President, I was invited to the table by then Mayor Humphrey’s and served as a member of the steering committees of MAPS 2 and the 2000 G.O. Bond election. The Mayor and I had our issues and rarely looked at things the same. It may have pained him greatly to make the invitation, nevertheless he made it.

Now as you can see, there was a time where the Union was a stakeholder and part of the alliance you spoke of between the Citizens, Government, and the Business community. Unless something different happens. Here is the rest of this sad story.

Our current Mayor has not shown a willingness to reach out, as did Mayor Humphrey’s did, and to be truthful I would be shocked if he did. That is unfortunate. If you consider President Sipe stepped into this situation less than three weeks ago, I would hope that one press conference does not make a man, because Phil Sipe is a man of integrity.

If he is given a legitimate invitation to sit at the table, by people with honest intentions, he will bring an honest willingness to address the issues and find a workable solution to the problems. If what I have been told is true, or unless his views have changed, if you ask Mr. Bennett I believe he would confirm the same

Consider if you will.

Doug, it is sad, I agree. If your not done thinking, if your still collecting your thoughts. If you would, please consider incorporating these facts into your thought process.

The Firefighters, who are Citizens of OKC, are prideful Citizens. I have been one for 55 years. Frankly speaking, I wish every one of them were Citizens, a lot of them are not, but a lot of us are.

Trust in Government is very hard to maintain when time after time your trust has been betrayed. I would like nothing more than being able to provide you with examples over a cup of coffee. You could decide for yourself if they are valid.

No doubt, business has shown a willingness to invest. However, I would be remiss if I do not remind you that the Firefighters, not the Union, invested not only their time but also their money as well in MAPS 1 and MAPS2. While Union President, I was invited to the table by then Mayor Humphrey’s and served as a member of the steering committees of MAPS 2 and the 2000 G.O. Bond election. The Mayor and I had our issues and rarely looked at things the same. It may have pained him greatly to make the invitation, nevertheless he made it.

Now as you can see, there was a time where the Union was a stakeholder and part of the alliance you spoke of between the Citizens, Government, and the Business community. Unless something different happens. Here is the rest of this sad story.

Our current Mayor has not shown a willingness to reach out, as did Mayor Humphrey’s did, and to be truthful I would be shocked if he did. That is unfortunate. If you consider President Sipe stepped into this situation less than three weeks ago, I would hope that one press conference does not make a man, because Phil Sipe is a man of integrity.

If he is given a legitimate invitation to sit at the table, by people with honest intentions, he will bring an honest willingness to address the issues and find a workable solution to the problems. If what I have been told is true, or unless his views have changed, if you ask Mr. Bennett I believe he would confirm the same

Consider if you will.
Arrogance is not a good quality in anyone, the mayor or me. Or anyone. And it does appear that Mayor Cornett has and exercises that capacity on occasion. I'm glad that Mayor Humphreys was apparently at least some different in the way that you described.

About what I initially said, it has already been pointed out that I mis-matched names and faces ... as I watched the press conference video, I thought that the short guy wearing the cowboy hat was Phil Sipe and that the tall guy was Gil Hensley. Everything in my original quote should be modified to attribute the comments I mentioned to Gil Hensley and not Phil Sipe. My error. The guy that made the cheap shots was the guy below:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/maps3_11_13_2.jpg

The guy who was more classy was the guy below, Phil Sipe:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/maps3_11_13_1.jpg

There was also Brian Walters, below, but I've not quoted him yet (but will later):

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/maps3_11_13_3.jpg

About the flyer, it's a piece of trash. Like JBrown said, the rail yard has absolutely nothing to do with MAPS 3 ... ODOT did, not the city. As for Union Station itself, my understanding is that it is envisioned as a community center and anchor for the park ... although that has to be done in keeping with federal requirements ... as I understand it, it has to continue a transportation function of some sort, hence COTPA is there but it doesn't use all that much space in the facility. About Central Park, that's a lie, according to a "trusted source" who doesn't want to be quoted here. My understanding is that Devon never once requested central park - it requested improvements to Myriad Gardens, which are being done via property taxes Devon is to pay on its new tower.

About the coffee, glad to meet, anytime. I think I gave you my phone number in a PM ... if I didn't let me know and I will.

Arrogance is not a good quality in anyone, the mayor or me. Or anyone. And it does appear that Mayor Cornett has and exercises that capacity on occasion. I'm glad that Mayor Humphreys was apparently at least some different in the way that you described.

About what I initially said, it has already been pointed out that I mis-matched names and faces ... as I watched the press conference video, I though that the short guy wearing the cowboy hat was Phil Sipe and that the tall guy was Gil Hensley. Everything in my original quote should be modified to attribute the comments I mentioned to Gil Hensley and not Phil Sipe. My error. The guy that made the cheap shots was the guy below:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/maps3_11_13_2.jpg

The guy who was more classy was the guy below, Phil Sipe:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/maps3_11_13_1.jpg

There was also Brian Walters, below, but I've not quoted him yet (but will later):

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/maps3_11_13_3.jpg

About the flyer, it's a piece of trash. Like JBrown said, the rail yard has absolutely nothing to do with MAPS 3 ... ODOT did, not the city. As for Union Station itself, my understanding is that it is envisioned as a community center and anchor for the park ... although that has to be done in keeping with federal requirements ... as I understand it, it has to continue a transportation function of some sort, hence COTPA is there but it doesn't use all that much space in the facility. About Central Park, that's a lie, according to a "trusted source" who doesn't want to be quoted here. My understanding is that Devon never once requested central park - it requested improvements to Myriad Gardens, which are being done via property taxes Devon is to pay on its new tower.

About the coffee, glad to meet, anytime. I think I gave you my phone number in a PM ... if I didn't let me know and I will.Sounds good, About the flyer I have not seen it. Though I could be wrong I don't believe it came from the P & F coalition

I've not seen the flyer, either ... I based my above comments on the quote which started this thread. If someone has a copy, perhaps they will scan it so we can all have a look.

My entire extended family has fought to support unions through the last 30-plus years of union-busting activity that began in earnest under Reagan.

However, at this point, I say screw the police and fire unions. My wife and I were talking today that we will tell everyone we know about this selfish, onanistic effort to screw over the citizens of this city because they aren't getting everything they want in the teeth of the worst economic collapse since the Great Depression.

Where I work, we've had to have our wages cut. The police and fire have not. And yet they whine about taking a 2 percent cut, when most people are dealing with 15 to 20 percent cuts -- and worse, unemployment.

Andy, your campaign punishes the citizens of OKC, not the "elites," as you claim. Ultimately, if successful, your campaign will lead to fewer business opportunities and lower sales tax collections for OKC, which will no doubt harm your ultimate efforts.

It is selfish, pointless, vindictive, ignorant, and potentially very destructive.

If a real bond issue comes to pass for police and fire wages to be increased, do not expect my vote.

My entire extended family has fought to support unions through the last 30-plus years of union-busting activity that began in earnest under Reagan.

However, at this point, I say screw the police and fire unions. My wife and I were talking today that we will tell everyone we know about this selfish, onanistic effort to screw over the citizens of this city because they aren't getting everything they want in the teeth of the worst economic collapse since the Great Depression.

Where I work, we've had to have our wages cut. The police and fire have not. And yet they whine about taking a 2 percent cut, when most people are dealing with 15 to 20 percent cuts -- and worse, unemployment.

Andy, your campaign punishes the citizens of OKC, not the "elites," as you claim. Ultimately, if successful, your campaign will lead to fewer business opportunities and lower sales tax collections for OKC, which will no doubt harm your ultimate efforts.

It is selfish, pointless, vindictive, ignorant, and potentially very destructive.

If a real bond issue comes to pass for police and fire wages to be increased, do not expect my vote.

Thats all fine and good soonerguru. Panic much? Bad maybe, the worst ever since the great one, if you say so. But hey I've had to pull my foot from my mouth, and there have been many times, trust me. Making wrong assumptions, saying things that shouldn't be said, it happens, I understand. Although I have been heavily engaged in the debate regarding this issue, it is not the Andy Campaign. I keep my onanistic efforts private. I can't recall If I have used the term "elites". If you can show me where I did it would sure help to refresh my memory. You can rest assured that in the future I will not expect anything from you.

However, at this point, I say screw the police and fire unions. My wife and I were talking today that we will tell everyone we know about this selfish, onanistic effort to screw over the citizens of this city because they aren't getting everything they want in the teeth of the worst economic collapse since the Great Depression.

That's funny you say "the worst economic collapse since the Great Depression" and then vote for a TAX for a park and walking trails. Laughable!!!


My entire extended family has fought to support unions through the last 30-plus years of union-busting activity that began in earnest under Reagan.

Keep in mind, "Unions" are made of up of good hardworking men and women. Men and Women with families just like yours. Unions are working class men and women, minus this issue of MAPS3 I suspect we have many of the same views. Please don't get down to much on those that might just differ from you on this one issue.

Where I work, we've had to have our wages cut. The police and fire have not. And yet they whine about taking a 2 percent cut, when most people are dealing with 15 to 20 percent cuts -- and worse, unemployment.


Andy, your campaign punishes the citizens of OKC, not the "elites," as you claim. Ultimately, if successful, your campaign will lead to fewer business opportunities and lower sales tax collections for OKC, which will no doubt harm your ultimate efforts.

Let's not be dramatic and suggest that any citizen will be punished if MAPS3 doesn't pass. Sounds like times are difficult for you and your family because of recent cuts. I am still baffled and trying to understand how MAPS3 is going to make your situation any better. Unless you plan on starting a career managing the condo's, or as a chef or fast food vendor, or maybe become part of any hotel staff. That's the only way I see it's going to benefit you.


You can rest assured that in the future I will not expect anything from you

Ditto!

...One could expand the pro-MAPS 3 list of outrageous comments by going back to the 1st Chamber "Breaking Through" luncheon when, at the end, David Thompson offered his view that if MAPS 3 did not pass that the city would be set back 10 years. Sure thing, David -- the last 10 years progress suddenly vanishes on 12/8/2009 if MAPS 3 doesn't pass and we are transported back in time to 1999. The last 10 years of the city's development gets a fast flush and it never happened. What an idiotic thing for him to say....

:yourock:
THANK YOU !

I said the same thing, that some posters think that the forward momentum would suddenly stop... (didn't know Mr. Thompson had made that statement) and we would return to at least the pre-MAPS state. Still want to know WHY they think that will happen? We STILL have "forward momentum" going on 16 years after the 1st MAPS vote passed. Devon has credited MAPS as the reason they are still here. The Devon Tower can be directly attributed to MAPS and the entire 180 street-scaping project and the extensive improvements to the Myriad Gardens, etc., as a result from that. That in turn will lead to more development EVEN IF MAPS 3 NEVER EXISTED. The only way that forward momentum is going to slow down or stop is if the projects being built now are failures. Don't think anyone would argue that the projects "proposed" won't be a catalyst for future development, but I agree they crossed the line with the other suggestion.

...Yes voters research the penny tax history and you will find that in it's best year in good economic times it only brought in 92 million, so they are claiming it will bring in 100 million a year so they are already not be straight shooters. ...

I haven't found individual numbers, just the yearly averages for the various MAPS:

MAPS (MAPS and the 6 month extension)
5.5 years
$363M
$66M/year average
(the 6 month extension was projected to bring in $30M )

There was an approximate 2 1/2 year gap between MAPS & MAPS for Kids

MAPS 2 (MAPS for Kids)
7 years
$520M
$74.29M/year
(11% increase here is probably attributable to MAPS, but have to take out what the normal increase would be due to inflation etc)


Ford Center Improvements (or as I like to call it, MAPS 1.75)
15 months
$100M/year (est)
(this is a 25% jump over MAPS 2 collections?? Actual revenue to date is multi-millions below projections, don't have an exact figue but may be the similar 11% increase noted above or $82.46M/year)


MAPS 3
7.75 years
$777M
$100M/year (est)
(this is 46% higher than the yearly average for MAPS, and as noted above, 25% higher than the recently ended MAPS 2??. IF my Ford tax calculation is valid, means that MAPS 3 will bring in significantly less than they are projecting, $639M or $138M short. Which projects are going to get scaled back or cut completely? Don't have any idea where they got their projections from, so don't know.)

How much of the sales tax revenue increases are attributable to the various MAPS and how much is due to population growth (some can be attributed to MAPS) and just normal increases that would have happened anyway? Unfortunately, don't have the answers for that but here is some info:

"Since the official Census in 2000, Oklahoma City had grown over eight percent according to the Census Bureau, making it the 12th-fastest growing large city (over 500,000 in population) in the United States."



...Has one pro maps statement every discussed the order in which they will start with these projects,no. The first project will be the project that was desired by the wealthiest contributor to the pro maps campaign. Bennett, Nichols, Norick, Humphreys, Thompson, etc.; place your bet on which one of these elite wealthy will get their project started first.

As mentioned previously, the Park/Boulevard are scheduled to be completed 1st (by 2014, 2 years after the relocated I-40 opens). The Convention Center is scheduled to be "staged" last (for some unknown reason, given it's "economic engine" status and the fact we are currently losing convention business). The Mayor has put that date as at least 10 years from now. Historically, the last of the MAPS projects are finished 10 to 12 years after the vote. Where everything else ends up in the mix, is uncertain.


Also the convention center estimated cost only includes a part of the convention center, not the full price and where is the rest of the coming from to finish this, please enlighten me. ...

It is true that the amount given previously reported is the Phase 1 (of 2) that was mentioned in a tiny Q&A blurd with the Mayor in the Oklahoman. A couple of articles mentioned the Convention Center as being in the $250 to $400 million range. Only after reading the Chamber's C.C. study did I find out more details on the Phase 1 and Phase 2. Other than that I haven't seen any mention on any of the MAPS 3 websites that points out that the C.C is just the Phase 1 portion. My guess is Phase 2 will be in MAPS 4.

http://www.thethoughts.co.uk/images/leoben_2.jpg

All of this has happened before, and all of it will happen again.

Ah yes, good ol' (reimagined) BSG!

That has been one of my points about the sloppiness of the Ballot/Ordinance. The built in accountability was present and is missing form this one. They have set things up to return to the days when promises were made and broken. Sadly, many here don't seem to understand that if you don't take preventative steps, history has this annoying way of repeating itself.

I said the same thing, that some posters think that the forward momentum would suddenly stop... (didn't know Mr. Thompson had made that statement) and we would return to at least the pre-MAPS state. Still want to know WHY they think that will happen? We STILL have "forward momentum" going on 16 years after the 1st MAPS vote passed. Devon has credited MAPS as the reason they are still here. The Devon Tower can be directly attributed to MAPS and the entire 180 street-scaping project and the extensive improvements to the Myriad Gardens, etc., as a result from that. That in turn will lead to more development EVEN IF MAPS 3 NEVER EXISTED. The only way that forward momentum is going to slow down or stop is if the projects being built now are failures. Don't think anyone would argue that the projects "proposed" won't be a catalyst for future development, but I agree they crossed the line with the other suggestion.

I don't think forward momentum is going to completely stop, nor do I think not passing MAPS 3 is going to set us back 10 years, but it will not progress remotely as rapidly without it. I challenge anyone to give reasons why the Core to Shore area will develop as rapidly, or at all, without the Central Park, the convention center or the streetcar. Remember, most of this prior development occurred when the economy was either booming or growing reasonably rapidly. That is no longer the case, and will not be the case for the unforseeable future.

What we will have is what we have now. Automobile Alley will continue to improve. The Film District may improve some. The Myriad Gardens will be nicer, and we'll get downtown streetscaping. Slowly, slowly, slowly we may get more downtown housing. The Devon Tower will be built. Maybe Mr. Preftakes will get around to something on his block. Slowly, slowly, slowly, the city might pass a bond issue here or there that will allow them to buy property to eventually build a park.

But, we'll still be driving downtown, because the trolleys are almost unuseable. Maybe a few incredibly brave souls will start trying to develop the area north of the boulevard, if we have a boulevard. The Cox Center will continue to deteriorate, and we'll get at best the same number of conventions we're getting now. We might get a few more Holiday Inn Expresses and similar lower budget hotels built. We'll get a few more restaurants.

I think we'll have an explosion of downtown development if MAPS 3 passes. If we have more reason to go to the river, especially if there are grandstands for events, we might start seeing some restaurants down there. Obviously a new convention center is going to be much more alluring (not to mention the allure of the availability of open land) for a bigger hotel chain or local builder to develop hotels, restaurants and retail in that location. The park may be reason a developer decides to put downtown housing in along it. We've been shown that development springs up along a streetcar line, and so that's another stimulus.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm voting to again jumpstart the development of our downtown. What has happened has been great, and we will continue to have development. But, with MAPS 3 passing, it's going to be far greater and far faster. I'm in a hurry. We started out far behind many other cities, and we've got to play catchup. If we move along at the same rate they do, we stay behind.

some posters think that the forward momentum would suddenly stop... (didn't know Mr. Thompson had made that statement) and we would return to at least the pre-MAPS state. Still want to know WHY they think that will happen?
Because momentum is emotional and attitudinal and looking toward the future. Right now Oklahoma City, the community, still has this attitude that we can improve our community, that we can make the future better for us and our children.

We feel that way because we've had some successes the last few years. And we're far enough away from the not too far distant oil bust, real estate bust, bank bust and others that so many of us remember way too clearly.

When you have momentum it isn't so hard to keep it going. Getting it in the first place is a whole lot harder.

Maybe people are correct and this vote on MAPS 3 makes no difference at all regarding momentum but it is hard for me to believe.


We STILL have "forward momentum" going on 16 years after the 1st MAPS vote passed. Devon has credited MAPS as the reason they are still here.

Stuff that is happening now was planned years before. If we want things to happen in a few years then we have to be working on it now.

Back when so many of us had to leave because of economic considerations probably no one envisioned Devon building a new tower in Oklahoma City. In fact no one could imagine anyone building anything in Oklahoma City. Maybe there's another Devon out there that we don't know about right now but will say 10 or 15 years from now that it was MAPS 3 that kept them in town. Maybe not. I don't know.

I just know I am unwilling to take the chance on stopping what we have going. Plus I'm too old to keep starting over all the time.

I don't think forward momentum is going to completely stop...

That's not what you said before (and you defended it when I called it into question). Don't remember which thread but will try to relocate it (and if I find that you didn't say it, I will post an apology).

...Maybe people are correct and this vote on MAPS 3 makes no difference at all regarding momentum but it is hard for me to believe.

Stuff that is happening now was planned years before. If we want things to happen in a few years then we have to be working on it now.

...

I just know I am unwilling to take the chance on stopping what we have going. Plus I'm too old to keep starting over all the time.

I don't disagree and I don't thoink I ever stated that MAPS 3 makes "no difference at all". It most certainly will serve as a "booster shot" if you will. Where they cross the line is, as Doug pointed out, the notion that it all suddenly stops if there is no MAPS 3.

By the way, why doesn't anybody take issue with Doug when he is saying the same thing?:LolLolLol

Fine, come up with a quote. Perhaps I overstated, for which I apologize. I will now say that momentum will be less rapid if we don't pass MAPS 3, and I'll stick with that. Satisfied?

Momentum: a quantity expressing the motion of a body or system, equal to the product of the mass of a body and its velocity, and for a system equal to the vector sum of the products of mass and velocity of each particle in the system.

I believe that with passage of MAPs 3 the mass of development will be far greater, and the velocity will be far greater, which will lead to a geometric (and extremely significant) increase in momentum.

And here's my definitive statement: As far as I'm concerned, I'm voting to again jumpstart the development of our downtown. What has happened has been great, and we will continue to have development. But, with MAPS 3 passing, it's going to be far greater and far faster. I'm in a hurry. We started out far behind many other cities, and we've got to play catchup. If we move along at the same rate they do, we stay behind.

By the way, why doesn't anybody take issue with Doug when he is saying the same thing?:LolLolLol
You were easier to quote?

No, not really. I didn't see the comments being the same actually. Doug was taking issue with David Thompson's statement that the City would be set back 10 years. You were asking why some of us think forward momentum would stop.

I am probably more in agreement with Thompson's statement although I don't think it should be taken literally. I returned to the area about 10 years ago and oil was close to $10 as I recall. Even so I was surprised at the attitude. It wasn't nearly as gloomy as it had been when I left. In fact it was to me amazingly optimistic.

And I was astonished at what had been accomplished in the few years I'd been absent. The City and its leaders and citizens were rightfully proud of the changes, too. But very few people outside of the area shared or understood that pride. Everywhere else was booming. Oklahoma City was seen as kind of treading water and not very good water at that.

But gradually as time passed that attitude changed and even outsiders began to notice something about the area. It was still plodding they thought but at least plodding ahead. I have to admit that it gave me some pleasure to have a little recognition for Oklahoma City.

I think that, among other things, was what Thompson was talking about that we would be in danger of losing some hard won respect.

If the $10 per month for MAPS (based on $12,000 of purchases per year) were correct, where does the rest of the $73.75 that the Average Oklahoma City Resident is paying in sales tax per month ultimately go?

If the $10 per month for MAPS (based on $12,000 of purchases per year) were correct, where does the rest of the $73.75 that the Average Oklahoma City Resident is paying in sales tax per month ultimately go?

Here's the breakdown...

4.5% goes to the state.
3.875% goes to the city. Of that 3.875%...

1% goes to fund MAPS (in this case Ford Center upgrade)
2% goes to the general budget
.75% goes to police and fire (oh, what do you know, they already DO have a permanent funding source from sales tax)
.125% goes to the Oklahoma City Zoo

I understand the total OKC Public Safety Budget is $290 million. If 1% sales tax equates to $100 million, where is the rest of Public Safety being funded from in addition to the dedicated public safety 0.75%/$75 million sales tax?

I want the accountability that was present in previous MAPS.
As of now I will vote no on this MAPS

... didn't know Mr. Thompson had made that statement ...
His exact statement, contained at the end of the Q&A session on 10/21 ... Doug Dawgz Blog: All The News About MAPS 3 (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2009/10/all-news-about-maps-3.html#chamber1) ... was:


If it does not pass, I say it sets us back 10 years. We cannot let that happen.
From whichever side it comes, pro-or-con MAPS 3, garbage in = garbage out.

On edit: I'll add (now having read more of the intervening posts) something I've said all along: Today's circumstance is not the same as it was before 1993 MAPS passed. The city was in a ****-can in 1993 and something radical was needed to change that. We are not in the ****-can today. While I am of the opinion that MAPS 3 will cause a very substantial surge in the city's economic development ... and while I am of the opinion that the time is right for MAPS 3 ... and while I am of the opinion that the unions' positions are more or less obstructionist (even though I acknowledge that staffing needs exist, those issues should not prevent MAPS 3 from passing but should be addressed in other ways, probably by an additional 1/4 cent or so sales tax for permanency), all that said ...

... if MAPS 3 does not pass I do not think the city's downtown economic development will suddenly (or ever in the foreseeable future, i.e., barring some new economic meltdown type of thing) come to a screeching halt.

But the quality of life features involved with MAPS 3 are too good (yes, even with the crappy ballot and the handshake deal) not to say, YES! I hope that MAPS 3 passes and will be voting that way. I'm even planning to stick a Vote Yes yard sign in Larry's front yard (when I learn where that might be). Just kidding.

I want that park, those river improvements, the canoe/kayak facility, the rail-based trolley, even the convention center. I want them more than the sidewalks, the trails, the fairgrounds part, and the senior wellness centers. But that's just me.

Is there anything the Council could pass between now and December that would create the accountability that many are looking for in the process? If so, the Council needs to get after it.

I haven't found individual numbers, just the yearly averages for the various MAPS:

MAPS (MAPS and the 6 month extension)
5.5 years
$363M
$66M/year average
(the 6 month extension was projected to bring in $30M )

There was an approximate 2 1/2 year gap between MAPS & MAPS for Kids

MAPS 2 (MAPS for Kids)
7 years
$520M
$74.29M/year
(11% increase here is probably attributable to MAPS, but have to take out what the normal increase would be due to inflation etc)


Ford Center Improvements (or as I like to call it, MAPS 1.75)
15 months
$100M/year (est)
(this is a 25% jump over MAPS 2 collections?? Actual revenue to date is multi-millions below projections, don't have an exact figue but may be the similar 11% increase noted above or $82.46M/year)


MAPS 3
7.75 years
$777M
$100M/year (est)
(this is 46% higher than the yearly average for MAPS, and as noted above, 25% higher than the recently ended MAPS 2??. IF my Ford tax calculation is valid, means that MAPS 3 will bring in significantly less than they are projecting, $639M or $138M short. Which projects are going to get scaled back or cut completely? Don't have any idea where they got their projections from, so don't know.)

How much of the sales tax revenue increases are attributable to the various MAPS and how much is due to population growth (some can be attributed to MAPS) and just normal increases that would have happened anyway? Unfortunately, don't have the answers for that but here is some info:

"Since the official Census in 2000, Oklahoma City had grown over eight percent according to the Census Bureau, making it the 12th-fastest growing large city (over 500,000 in population) in the United States."




As mentioned previously, the Park/Boulevard are scheduled to be completed 1st (by 2014, 2 years after the relocated I-40 opens). The Convention Center is scheduled to be "staged" last (for some unknown reason, given it's "economic engine" status and the fact we are currently losing convention business). The Mayor has put that date as at least 10 years from now. Historically, the last of the MAPS projects are finished 10 to 12 years after the vote. Where everything else ends up in the mix, is uncertain.



It is true that the amount given previously reported is the Phase 1 (of 2) that was mentioned in a tiny Q&A blurd with the Mayor in the Oklahoman. A couple of articles mentioned the Convention Center as being in the $250 to $400 million range. Only after reading the Chamber's C.C. study did I find out more details on the Phase 1 and Phase 2. Other than that I haven't seen any mention on any of the MAPS 3 websites that points out that the C.C is just the Phase 1 portion. My guess is Phase 2 will be in MAPS 4.

Thanks Larry, I just want to let some folks know that the 100 million a year estimate was overly generous and that some projects if they get to them will be a long time after the tax is finished and Maps 4 looks inevitable. I telling you Maps 3 will not pass the first time around just like the 3/4 cent public safety sales took 2 times to past in 1989, mark my words. It needs more accountibility, other problems to be handled first, and more support for the right people.

I want that park, those river improvements, the canoe/kayak facility, the rail-based trolley, even the convention center. I want them more than the sidewalks, the trails, the fairgrounds part, and the senior wellness centers. But that's just me.

This just keeps getting a little more weird every time. I'd thought for sure at your age you'd want the Senior Aquatics center over everything else. :doh:

Aquatics implies body movement. I like to watch.

Let's not be dramatic and suggest that any citizen will be punished if MAPS3 doesn't pass. Sounds like times are difficult for you and your family because of recent cuts. I am still baffled and trying to understand how MAPS3 is going to make your situation any better. Unless you plan on starting a career managing the condo's, or as a chef or fast food vendor, or maybe become part of any hotel staff. That's the only way I see it's going to benefit you.

I can't think of a way to say it nicer, but Iron, you are simply dense. You do not understand -- or fail to consider -- the connection between improving our city and improving our tax base, and how that affects all of our opportunities for jobs, how that impacts the value of our homes, and how living somewhere that has new opportunity makes you a happier person.

You probably could not explain why Austin is doing so well in the economy.

You have a zero-sum-game viewpoint of how economic development occurs.

I'm no supply-side theorist, but I get how our city must continue to improve or our opportunities will be limited in the future. That your income is reliant on municipal tax collection, I would think you would, too.

You really just don't get it.

This is a scorched-earth approach to getting what you want and it benefits no one; ironically, it won't benefit you or your goals in the long run either.

I want the accountability that was present in previous MAPS.
As of now I will vote no on this MAPS

What accountability? This is no different.

All we were told was the broad outline of projects, not the details. Then we voted. A MAPS oversight board oversaw the projects. That's it.

This one is no different.

This is a dumb reason to not support it.

I can't think of a way to say it nicer, but Iron, you are simply dense. You do not understand -- or fail to consider -- the connection between improving our city and improving our tax base, and how that affects all of our opportunities for jobs, how that impacts the value of our homes, and how living somewhere that has new opportunity makes you a happier person.



Yupp, as a matter of fact, Larry Nichols himself said that Devon's HQ would have been in Houston had it not been for MAPS because without MAPS and the quality of life it created, they wouldn't have been able to attract the type of skilled workers to Oklahoma City that Devon can today.

Nor would we be seeing a 50-story skyscraper go up. Nor would we see an NBA team here. And I can go on.

To those that oppose MAPS, understand that the supporters of MAPS care as much about public safety. But when you are building a city, you can't just focus on public safety, or just focus on infrastructure, or just focus on education, or just focus on entertainment and recreational amenities. You need to focus on all of those components.

I think there are people who just don't get it. Maybe they've never been to Chicago, Boston, Portland or Denver. Maybe they've never ridden in any sort of transit besides a car. Maybe they haven't seen a city where the populace naturally heads downtown when they've got free time. Maybe they don't know or care what anyone else thinks about Oklahoma City. If you don't know any better, you cannot have vision, you cannot see what Oklahoma City could become because you have no frame of reference. I find it amazing to see what a penny has done, but I also can see how far we have to go because I've been in all these cities and lived in some. What is sad is how little any individual will have in their pocket if MAPS doesn't pass. It's rather like selling your birthright for a mess of pottage.

Is there anything the Council could pass between now and December that would create the accountability that many are looking for in the process? If so, the Council needs to get after it.This is not true in all cases. However, for the most part the Council only acts when the Manager and his staff, and the legal dept. recomend how and when they should act. How do you think we got a no definition, no accountability ballot in the first place? Could they stop the vote, and tear up the ballots that have been printed, and start over? Unless Midtowner or someone else with a legal background says different, yes, with few exceptions, they can do anything they want.

...I'm even planning to stick a Vote Yes yard sign in Larry's front yard (when I learn where that might be). Just kidding.

I want that park, those river improvements, the canoe/kayak facility, the rail-based trolley, even the convention center. I want them more than the sidewalks, the trails, the fairgrounds part, and the senior wellness centers. But that's just me.

I am in agreement and like many am torn. I readily admit I am in the NO camp, but want to be in the YES camp...but just can't get past the "blank check" that this Ballot & Ordinance gives them. I like most, if not all of the projects, but as stated numerous times, there is nothing legally binding that says we will get ANY of the "proposed" items. Realistically, the Big 3 (Park, Convention Center and Streetcars) will happen. The others, not so sure.

Guess I could pull a "house divided" and have both signs displayed:LolLolLol

What accountability? This is no different.

All we were told was the broad outline of projects, not the details. Then we voted. A MAPS oversight board oversaw the projects. That's it.

This one is no different.

This is a dumb reason to not support it.

With all due respect they are VERY different. Doug has supplied the links before and maybe he can do so again. Compare the original MAPS ballot and the Current one. If available, compare the original Ordinance and the Current one. Remember, what is contained in the Ordinance is what you are actually voting on, the Ballot language is usually a summation of the Ordianance (in some cases Ballot language is worded so you are actually voting the opposite of what you think you are). When you compare them, there is a HUGE differences.

Even the original Ballot had an amazing amount of detail (not an exact quote, but the gist):

Ballpark: No less than AAA standards
Arena: Built to meet the standards of the NBA and NHL

This time around, not only are we not getting that level of detail, but NONE of the projects are even mentioned. Zero. Nada. Ziltch.

The oversight committee is included but not defined either in the Ballot or Ordinance. If memory serves the original MAPS oversight board had some authority to it (definitely remember numerous articles discussing the dissension on the Board). What does the MAPS 3 Ordinance say this time around?

ORDINANCE NO. 23,942.

...PROVIDING FOR A CITIZENS CAPITAL IMPROVEMENTS SALES TAX ADVISORY BOARD...

§ 52-23.4. (g) For the purpose of advising the City Council regarding projects proposed for funding from the excise tax levied by this section, the City Council shall by resolution establish a Citizens Capital Improvements Sales Tax Advisory Board. The Board's function shall be to review any such proposed project and submit recommendations to the City Council regarding the project.

One helpful article in the Oklahoman:
NewsOK (http://www.newsok.com/maps-3-oversight-board-included-on-ballot-but-not-defined/article/3415496)

Just read through the last 3 pages of postings and I see my dislike for the unions is well founded. Pay them off first or they will campaign against you. Seems like a recurring theme for them.

The oversight committee is included but not defined either in the Ballot or Ordinance. If memory serves the original MAPS oversight board had some authority to it (definitely remember numerous articles discussing the dissension on the Board).

In all fairness, I don't think the oversight committee is worth very much. It seems like a good place for certain big law firms and business people to pretend they have something to do with MAPS and progress, but in the final analysis, I don't think the committee has much value.

FWIW, all of the committee members I've spoken to about their participation in MAPS have talked about how proud they are of "our" accomplishments. I think that speaks volumes about the sort of oversight or lack thereof which exists.