View Full Version : MAPS Opposition Fliers



Pages : 1 [2] 3

Platemaker
11-16-2009, 12:09 PM
Unless you plan on starting a career managing the condo's, or as a chef or fast food vendor, or maybe become part of any hotel staff. That's the only way I see it's going to benefit you.
What a joke.

iron76hd
11-16-2009, 01:39 PM
What a joke.

Thank You.

MikeOKC
11-16-2009, 01:40 PM
Just read through the last 3 pages of postings and I see my dislike for the unions is well founded. Pay them off first or they will campaign against you. Seems like a recurring theme for them.

Sounds an awful lot like the business lobby to me. Workers standing together making their needs and wants voiced is evil, but big business sends out armies of lobbyists and buys off every level of government and that's somehow different? I could say the same about the business lobby, "Pay them off first or they will campaign against you. Seems like a recurring theme for them." Maybe it fits everyone involved in politics? It's not just unions, Kerry.

jbrown84
11-17-2009, 05:16 PM
Unless you plan on starting a career managing the condo's, or as a chef or fast food vendor, or maybe become part of any hotel staff. That's the only way I see it's going to benefit you.


Maybe he does. Or maybe he's already in one of those careers. WHO ARE YOU to look down on those jobs?? Why are they so much less important that your beloved police and firefighters???



I said the same thing, that some posters think that the forward momentum would suddenly stop....

There's a huge difference between saying that momentum and progress will stop or slow, and saying we will be "set back 10 years." Don't put words in our mouths.

iron76hd
11-18-2009, 07:04 AM
Maybe he does. Or maybe he's already in one of those careers. WHO ARE YOU to look down on those jobs?? Why are they so much less important that your beloved police and firefighters???
You missed the point. This JOB Growth is a joke also. Unless you're in one of a few fields that's the only jobs that will be added. They act like Major corporations are going to spring up everywhere. I'm crazy. I'm still waiting for all of the "right to work" companies to start piling in like Keating PROMISED.

There's a huge difference between saying that momentum and progress will stop or slow, and saying we will be "set back 10 years." Don't put words in our mouths.
Stopped, slowed, or "set back 10 years" is all a bunch of bull. Scare tactics to push people to vote YES or "this city will crumble". What a joke! I know rational, logical people don't believe that. "the sky is falling" mentality...:LolLolLol

betts
11-18-2009, 07:18 AM
Rational, logical people know that Oklahoma City is nowhere near where other cities we'd like to emulate are. Rational people know that we've got to play catch-up if we hope to get close. Our downtown retail is virtually nonexistant, we have no mass transit to speak of, we've got a dearth of natural beauty and need to create some. We don't have many housing options for people wanting to live downtown. Although we're starting to make some top ten lists, I haven't noticed any of them being for "liveability", "cities in which to retire (chosen for leisure time options and ease of access)", etc. We're ignored by many major retailers because our population is so scattered that they can't figure out where to put stores. We've got a convention center half the size of Tulsa, smaller than Omaha, and about the same size as Wichita.

People posting here in favor of MAPS want to make this a better city in which to live. I see nothing wrong with that. In fact, I have trouble understanding why anyone wouldn't want to make this a better city in which to live. Poking fun at people who want progress makes no sense to me.

Larry OKC
11-18-2009, 10:38 AM
.There's a huge difference between saying that momentum and progress will stop or slow, and saying we will be "set back 10 years." Don't put words in our mouths.

Hmmmm, I actually agree with you and have stated the same thing somewhere in these threads. As you can see below, it is the good folks at the Chamber that are implying that (IMO). Do you have me confused with someone else? I did a quick scan thru the thread and found my post you partially quoted, I don't see anywhere in it that I "put words" in anyone's mouth (in that post or any of the my other ones in this thread). Maybe you think I did that in another post somewhere? If so, please provide.

In any case, as Doug pointed out/provided, Mr. Thompson said:


"If it does not pass, I say it sets us back 10 years. We cannot let that happen."


From the MAPS 3 website (Why Vote Yes tab) taken Oct 25, 2009

Keep OKC Moving - Vote Yes for MAPS on December 8! (http://www.yesformaps.com/whyvote.html)


Momentum from the previous MAPS initiatives has launched us into a renaissance. This momentum is not easily earned, or something that we can get back. The new MAPS proposal is our chance to keep moving OKC forward. It will bring in new jobs, private investment throughout the city and improve our quality of life. We have a choice to make: halt the progress we have made, or continue moving forward with this momentum.

....Now is not the time to stop the momentum if we want to continue to enjoy the quality of life we have come to expect.

The 1st part of that is fine. Undoubtedly a new round of projects could serve as a catalyst for more development. It is the last sentence that goes too far. It implies that all of the construction and the new business etc that is STILL happening because of the original MAPS (1993) will come to a halt. (IMO)

Doug Loudenback
11-18-2009, 11:59 AM
Larry didn't say that, he was merely quoting our community's august chamber president/Opubco president David Thompson who said it ... don't know which hat he was wearing at the time ...



In any case, as Doug pointed out/provided, Mr. Thompson said:

If it does not pass, I say it sets us back 10 years. We cannot let that happen.
I can rip that part of his remarks made at the Chamber's October 21 luncheon if anyone really needs/wants to hear him say it. That way, you can even make it the "ring" sound when your cell phone rings. I think that it was the wiser-than-his-name-would-suggest, Bugs Bunny, he being a leader that we would do well to have in our presence today, that used to say, "What a maroon."

Need a link? Urban Dictionary: maroon (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=maroon)

circled9
11-18-2009, 01:00 PM
MAPS was a slam dunk until the Public Safety groups became vocal. Even those who were not for it simply would not vote so a low voter turnout would guarantee a win.

That is no longer the case. Advocates for MAPS now have to not only get out the vote but also change some minds. Forums for urbanites are like preaching to the choir.

If this is going to win, advocates need to get out to the neighborhoods and suberbs to make their case. Part of that case should be an incentive that says if MAPS 3 passes, MAPS 4 will be for the neighborhoods and suberbs.

Everyone understands the case for downtown projects but a goal to be able to walk anywhere in OKC on a safe sidewalk before the year 2020 may also enhance our city's ability to be "major league".

Just some thoughts from somebody who has lived in several "major league" cities and truly wants to see us join that group.

Platemaker
11-18-2009, 01:15 PM
You missed the point. This JOB Growth is a joke also. Unless you're in one of a few fields that's the only jobs that will be added. They act like Major corporations are going to spring up everywhere. I'm crazy. I'm still waiting for all of the "right to work" companies to start piling in like Keating PROMISED.

They would probably pile up if Oklahoma City was viewed as an attractive place that would attract the best talent that every company seeks.

Remember losing the the United Airlines facility and how that loss contributed to the original MAPS???

Doug Loudenback
11-18-2009, 01:22 PM
Oh, what the heck. Here's the clip ... click David Thompson's graphic from the 10/21 Chamber luncheon, below, or click here for the clip (http://sites.google.com/site/dougdawgzmusic/home/thompson_2009_10_21.mp3) of David Thompson's remark at the 10/21/2009 Chamber luncheon.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/chamberlunch_2009_10_21_thompson4.jpg (http://sites.google.com/site/dougdawgzmusic/home/thompson_2009_10_21.mp3)


If it does not pass, I say it sets us back 10 years. We cannot let that happen.
Save the mp3 file and make it your ring-tone. Or not.

Wambo36
11-18-2009, 01:22 PM
If this is going to win, advocates need to get out to the neighborhoods and suberbs to make their case. Part of that case should be an incentive that says if MAPS 3 passes, MAPS 4 will be for the neighborhoods and suberbs.

So are we to assume that you have seen the proposals for MAPS 4? Or are you advocating saying whatever it takes to get peoples votes.

Doug Loudenback
11-18-2009, 01:27 PM
They would probably pile up if Oklahoma City was viewed as an attractive place that would attract the best talent that every company seeks.

Remember losing the the United Airlines facility and how that loss contributed to the original MAPS???
Indeed I do, Platemaker. In Norick's retrospective of his first term, that loss, as well as some lesser losses, reportedly caused him to pause and wonder, "Why is this happening? Why are we coming up 2nd best?"

He is reported to have concluded that it turned on quality of life issues. And then the new mild-mannered superman Mayor Norick was born, the one that we remember, and in his 2nd term that resulted in the original MAPS initiative.

Kerry
11-18-2009, 01:31 PM
Sounds an awful lot like the business lobby to me. Workers standing together making their needs and wants voiced is evil, but big business sends out armies of lobbyists and buys off every level of government and that's somehow different? I could say the same about the business lobby, "Pay them off first or they will campaign against you. Seems like a recurring theme for them." Maybe it fits everyone involved in politics? It's not just unions, Kerry.

How are the fire fighters and police harmed if MAPS III passes?

jbrown84
11-18-2009, 04:05 PM
You missed the point. This JOB Growth is a joke also. Unless you're in one of a few fields that's the only jobs that will be added.

No, you missed the point. OBVIOUSLY, you don't care about anyone but yourself and your union boys. You can't see that benefitting one part of the city or one group of citizens helps everyone.



Stopped, slowed, or "set back 10 years" is all a bunch of bull. Scare tactics to push people to vote YES or "this city will crumble". What a joke! I know rational, logical people don't believe that. "the sky is falling" mentality...:LolLolLol

Gee, sounds a lot like the rhetoric your people are pushing regarding the state of public safety.



I don't see anywhere in it that I "put words" in anyone's mouth (in that post or any of the my other ones in this thread). Maybe you think I did that in another post somewhere? If so, please provide.

It's right there in that quote. You said "some posters think". The only person who insenuated everything would stop--or be reversed--on Dec. 9 was David Thompson.


Part of that case should be an incentive that says if MAPS 3 passes, MAPS 4 will be for the neighborhoods and suberbs.

Sidewalks, bike/walk trails, senior centers all contribute to the outer parts of the city. State Fair Park is not downtown and the Oklahoma River improvements benefit the south side of the river as much as the north. This idea that this is only helping downtown is completely false.

tehvipir
11-18-2009, 08:00 PM
speaking of fliers. dont you think its funny that the week vote no for maps 3 comes out offically and yard signs are put up, the city has their "team" go around and removed illegal sings? i wonder how many of the vote no maps got removed even though they werent illegal, and if they did get removed illegally wouldnt that be a freedom of speech taken away because of opposition. I am just saying i think its funny. i dont know all the rules but i am told that as long as it is not"old" posters or signs from previous elections, nor on property without permission nor impeading traffic are they illegal. just a curious thought.

tehvipir
11-18-2009, 08:03 PM
oh and i know that we got a bunch of lawyers around here going to say something like our constitiution this or that but come on you come on my property and remove my property and things arent going to be good. not threatneing i am just saying i can make a pretty big stink of right infringments and tresspassing of public servants at the request of the mayor, which of course would be hard to prove but with the grassroots epopel coming out hese days it wouldnt look good.

kevinpate
11-18-2009, 08:32 PM
speaking of fliers. dont you think its funny that the week vote no for maps 3 comes out offically and yard signs are put up, the city has their "team" go around and removed illegal sings? i wonder how many of the vote no maps got removed even though they werent illegal, and if they did get removed illegally wouldnt that be a freedom of speech taken away because of opposition. I am just saying i think its funny. i dont know all the rules but i am told that as long as it is not"old" posters or signs from previous elections, nor on property without permission nor impeading traffic are they illegal. just a curious thought.

As noted in a different thread, what's funny is that it is a city govt. employee led opposition started sending out their signs, and for that matter a city govt employee led pro vote did so as well, and BOTH SIDES went out and slapped down their signs just RIGHT BEFORE a sign clean up time frame opens. A time frame set by the city, publicized by the city, a fairly standard time of the year utilized by the city and a clean up operated by the city.

How the freak did city employees, pro or con to MAPs not realize they needed to sit on their signs for a week or so? Perhaps emotions overran some common sense? I dunno.

That ebing said, of course any signs properly in place ought not be removed, pro MAPs or agin MAPs. They just ought not be bothered. The clean up should have only impacted wrongly placed signs, and of those, it should hit all improer signs, whether PRO, AGIN, or not even related to MAPs.

hoya
11-18-2009, 09:39 PM
You missed the point. This JOB Growth is a joke also. Unless you're in one of a few fields that's the only jobs that will be added. They act like Major corporations are going to spring up everywhere. I'm crazy. I'm still waiting for all of the "right to work" companies to start piling in like Keating PROMISED.

Stopped, slowed, or "set back 10 years" is all a bunch of bull. Scare tactics to push people to vote YES or "this city will crumble". What a joke! I know rational, logical people don't believe that. "the sky is falling" mentality...:LolLolLol

Oklahoma City sucks balls, dude. I've lived in other cities. They have more things to do, better schools, nicer neighborhoods, more money, better police, more beautiful scenery and architecture, better transit, and a better national reputation. I could go on and on. In this city I have a hard time finding a girl in her late 20s/early 30s who doesn't have kids. In other cities you don't. I could move back to DC and immediately make twice the money I make here.

But I want OKC to succeed. I grew up here. I have a little 4 year old nephew and a one year old niece here who think I'm awesome. I don't want to have to move to another city and not get to see them grow up just to have a decent quality of life. And yet I've seriously considered it. I consider it every day. I have a lot of friends who have left this city and gone elsewhere. By passing MAPS 3, you help keep people like that here. You need to keep college graduates in this state. The fact that you don't seem to realize it, that you don't realize that actually having a nice place to live affects whether people want to live there, means that you're either being willfully dense, or you just really don't know any better.

Let me put it this way. If you ripped out the canal, demolished the Bricktown Ballpark and the Ford Center, paved over the Myriad Gardens, turned the OKC Zoo into a junkyard, and burned Remington Park to the ground, do you think people would think this city is still as nice a place to be? Would you say, "oh, unless you drive a canal boat, play professional basketball or baseball, or are a zookeeper or jockey, you aren't affected by any of this"? Hopefully not, or you might be up for the role of Corky on the remake of "Life Goes On". These are all quality of life improvements, and while I might not make use of all of them (don't think I've ever been to Remington Park), they make the city a better place to be. MAPS 3 is about other quality of life improvements. There might be some attractive girl with big knockers who is planning on staying in the city because she's excited about the jogging trails. And that girl leaving this city would be a damn shame. And if I don't get to see her running along in a sports bra because of the anti-MAPS 3 people, well, that's too disturbing to even think about.

betts
11-18-2009, 10:21 PM
I think perhaps some of the people who don't understand haven't lived in or visited any of our bigger cities in the US. If Oklahoma City is the biggest place you've ever been, then it's going to look pretty good and you're not going to understand what all the fuss is about. If you've never had the luxury of riding mass transit instead of having to drive, you don't know what a great way to get around it is. If you haven't spent a Saturday afternoon in a city park, you don't understand what it can mean to a city. If you haven't ridden a bike since you were ten, you don't understand what it's like to be able to ride anywhere you want, and not have to put your bike up on a rack to find a place to ride.

andy157
11-18-2009, 10:28 PM
I think perhaps some of the people who don't understand haven't lived in or visited any of our bigger cities in the US. If Oklahoma City is the biggest place you've ever been, then it's going to look pretty good and you're not going to understand what all the fuss is about. If you've never had the luxury of riding mass transit instead of having to drive, you don't know what a great way to get around it is. If you haven't spent a Saturday afternoon in a city park, you don't understand what it can mean to a city. If you haven't ridden a bike since you were ten, you don't understand what it's like to be able to ride anywhere you want, and not have to put your bike up on a rack to find a place to ride.Whats keeping you from riding your bike anywhere you want now? I see people doing it everyday.

soonerguru
11-18-2009, 10:35 PM
Whats keeping you from riding your bike anywhere you want now? I see people doing it everyday.

Aren't you in public safety? Do you really think this city is safe for cyclists?

That's about the dumbest thing I've read on this entire thread, which totally speaks volumes.

andy157
11-18-2009, 10:52 PM
Aren't you in public safety? Do you really think this city is safe for cyclists?

That's about the dumbest thing I've read on this entire thread, which totally speaks volumes.No as a matter of fact I'm not. Can you support your claim this is a unsafe City for cyclists? How many were killed or injured in the last year? By the way even a moron knows thats not even close to the dumbest thing I've ever written. If were speaking in volumes.

hoya
11-18-2009, 11:16 PM
No as a matter of fact I'm not. Can you support your claim this is a unsafe City for cyclists? How many were killed or injured in the last year? By the way even a moron knows thats not even close to the dumbest thing I've ever written. If were speaking in volumes.

I don't doubt it's not the dumbest thing you've ever written. He said it was the dumbest thing in this thread. This city is unsafe for cyclists, and that's why more people don't do it. The fact is, you can't bike from one part of the city to another without having to travel on fairly high speed streets. I don't exactly call biking down Reno "safe". I can't bike to work, period, even though it would only take me about half an hour, distance-wise.

andy157
11-18-2009, 11:23 PM
I don't doubt it's not the dumbest thing you've ever written. He said it was the dumbest thing in this thread. This city is unsafe for cyclists, and that's why more people don't do it. The fact is, you can't bike from one part of the city to another without having to travel on fairly high speed streets. I don't exactly call biking down Reno "safe". I can't bike to work, period, even though it would only take me about half an hour, distance-wise.I see, now we're going to split hairs. Glad you could point that out dude. All I can tell you is this. If you really, really want to ride your bike to work then I suggest you grow a pair, and mount up.

betts
11-19-2009, 03:54 AM
I don't really care whether there are statistics saying it's unsafe for cyclists. There aren't enough of them to create any meaningful data. Your statement reminds me of one my son used to use on me when he was a kid and I caught him doing something dangerous "But I've done it a bunch of times before and I've never gotten hurt".

Riding a bicycle in this city is potentially unsafe. Riding bicycles anywhere there are not bike lanes is a risk. Even with bike lanes there's some risk but it's far less. This is not a bike friendly city. If you were wanting to ride your bike to Lake Hefner, try and think of a way you would do so safely. Try and think of how you would get to the river safely from most places. Yes, if you're fine with potentially not returning from a bike ride, one can ride anywhere in this city. If not, one pretty much has to stick to neighborhood streets.

Larry OKC
11-19-2009, 04:10 AM
It’s right there in that quote. You said “some posters think”. The only person who insenuated everything would stop--or be reversed--on Dec. 9 was David Thompson.

WHAT? Please explain how saying “some posters think” is putting words in anyone’s mouth. Did I incorrectly quote you or any poster here? If you think I did, please provide. Go back and read the other threads, other posters DID post the words to the same effect. One can presume since they wrote it that they thought it before hand? If I have the time I MIGHT go back and dig them up for you. Did you take that personally?

Here is my complete post made in this thread (#34, 11-15-2009, 09:04 AM, page 2 of this thread)

:yourock:
THANK YOU !

I said the same thing, that some posters think that the forward momentum would suddenly stop... (didn’t know Mr. Thompson had made that statement) and we would return to at least the pre-MAPS state. Still want to know WHY they think that will happen? We STILL have “forward momentum” going on 16 years after the 1st MAPS vote passed. Devon has credited MAPS as the reason they are still here. The Devon Tower can be directly attributed to MAPS and the entire 180 street-scaping project and the extensive improvements to the Myriad Gardens, etc., as a result from that. That in turn will lead to more development EVEN IF MAPS 3 NEVER EXISTED. The only way that forward momentum is going to slow down or stop is if the projects being built now are failures. Don’t think anyone would argue that the projects “proposed” won’t be a catalyst for future development, but I agree they crossed the line with the other suggestion.

also please refer to my post #67, (11/18/09), 11:38 AM where I give the quotes/statements (and links if handy so you can verify I am not taking anything out of context or some other offense)

Don’t believe me, fine, how about Doug’s post #68, (11/18/09), 12:59 PM?

Doug Loudenback
11-19-2009, 04:32 AM
You guys have me totally confused. What's going on?

Kerry
11-19-2009, 05:40 AM
You guys have me totally confused. What's going on?

As near as I can tell - here is the issue

Group 1: Wants to pass MAPS III to improve current city life and create future opportunities for employment and recreation.

Group 2: Wants a pay raise and guaranteed jobs while everyone else in America takes a pay cut or loses their job.

Larry OKC
11-19-2009, 05:44 AM
You guys have me totally confused. What's going on?

Doug, to whom are you directing?

flintysooner
11-19-2009, 06:06 AM
As near as I can tell - here is the issue

Group 1: Wants to pass MAPS III to improve current city life and create future opportunities for employment and recreation.

Group 2: Wants a pay raise and guaranteed jobs while everyone else in America takes a pay cut or loses their job.I agree with your Group 1 description except that I might add that many in Group 1 have various concerns and decided supporting MAPS 3 was better than the alternative.

I think your Group 2 description is unfair. It seems to me that some of the opposition express valid concerns about the ballot and/or the timing of the projects and feel it is a better choice to defeat the measure but hope a better, improved MAPS 3 effort is staged as a result of the defeat.

The police and firefighters are opposed because they want increased staffing and other issues addressed first and they are concerned that a 7.75 year sales tax program fails to address that concern.

Other reasons I've heard include just poor timing during a recession, lack of confidence in city leadership, being against all the proposed projects, being opposed to any new taxes, and just being against MAPS type projects in the first place.

Doug Loudenback
11-19-2009, 06:35 AM
Doug, to whom are you directing?
You and JBrown84. I'm confused by the individual points each of you is making with the back and forth between the two of you when referencing quotes (such as was made by Larry Thompson) and/or me or comments relating thereto.

betts
11-19-2009, 07:02 AM
Too much hair splitting going on. I think anyone with half a brain knows that if MAPS 3doesn't pass, it's going to affect momentum in a negative way. To precisely what speed it will slow, whether it will stop or reverse (which is hyperbole, but aren't most of us smart enough to figure out when someone is using hyperbole?) is really immaterial and unknowable. Let's just say it will affect momentum and leave it at that.

iron76hd
11-19-2009, 07:12 AM
Group 2: Wants a pay raise and guaranteed jobs while everyone else in America takes a pay cut or loses their job.
WRONG! Research much before you vote?

I don't doubt it's not the dumbest thing you've ever written.
WOW. What rock did you crawl out from under? Read your own stuff much?

Oklahoma City sucks balls, dude. I've lived in other cities.

I have a hard time finding a girl in her late 20s/early 30s who doesn't have kids.

By passing MAPS 3, you help keep people like that here.
Your college educated friends are desperately needing a park, walking trails and Senior Aquatic center huh?:LolLolLol

There might be some attractive girl with big knockers who is planning on staying in the city because she's excited about the jogging trails. And that girl leaving this city would be a damn shame. And if I don't get to see her running along in a sports bra because of the anti-MAPS 3 people, well, that's too disturbing to even think about.
I should have quoted the entire post. :doh:
Feel free to move back to DC. I've been there a couple of times....You got me...that's a wonderful place to live...

Kerry
11-19-2009, 08:00 AM
WRONG! Research much before you vote?


I wrote

Group 2: Wants a pay raise and guaranteed jobs while everyone else in America takes a pay cut or loses their job.

Which part was wrong? Your goal is to stop MAPS III so there can be an increase in the sales tax to pay for raises and/or guaranteed jobs in public safety isn't it. Americans are taking pay cuts and losing jobs aren't they.

on edit...

Oh wait - I see the problem now. I wrote EVERYONE ELSE in America. Your correct, I should have said MANY in Amercia. Not everyone has taken a pay cut or been laid off. Good catch.

iron76hd
11-19-2009, 08:08 AM
Which part was wrong?our goal is to stop MAPS III so there can be an increase in the sales tax to pay for raises and/or guaranteed jobs in public safety isn't it.
This is a joke right? Who told you Public Safety and the City Employees just wanted raises?
Neither the Police, Fire or City Employees are wanting raises. The raise the fireman won through arbitration, they've offered not to take. Your kidding right?

They want warm able bodies to work and help answer calls. Man currently closed fire stations. Citizens should not be put on hold when they dial 911. Citizens shouldn't have to wait 2-4 hours for a Police to show up after being called. You might not mind right now as your sitting comfortably behind your computer. Stop to put gas, and have a gun thrown in your face...call 911 get put on hold...or better yet have someone start kicking in your door right now!!! and call 911 and get put on hold or wait 11 minutes for an officer to show up. That's a shame....That's not a "Big League" Police response...

OSUFan
11-19-2009, 08:09 AM
As noted in a different thread, what's funny is that it is a city govt. employee led opposition started sending out their signs, and for that matter a city govt employee led pro vote did so as well, and BOTH SIDES went out and slapped down their signs just RIGHT BEFORE a sign clean up time frame opens. A time frame set by the city, publicized by the city, a fairly standard time of the year utilized by the city and a clean up operated by the city.

How the freak did city employees, pro or con to MAPs not realize they needed to sit on their signs for a week or so? Perhaps emotions overran some common sense? I dunno.

That ebing said, of course any signs properly in place ought not be removed, pro MAPs or agin MAPs. They just ought not be bothered. The clean up should have only impacted wrongly placed signs, and of those, it should hit all improer signs, whether PRO, AGIN, or not even related to MAPs.

I've yet to see any larger YES for MAPS signs out there yet. All I've seen are yard signs. I've seen a ton of larger Not this MAPS signs. To me it looks like the unions put a bunch of signs out right before the sweep and the YES campaign didn't. Anyone can go put a yard sign (yes or no) in a right away but I've yet to see any larger YES for MAPS signs.

Kerry
11-19-2009, 08:09 AM
So it is just about adding more jobs to public safety?

OKCMallen
11-19-2009, 08:18 AM
I see, now we're going to split hairs. Glad you could point that out dude. All I can tell you is this. If you really, really want to ride your bike to work then I suggest you grow a pair, and mount up.

As a VERY casual cyclist, I agree. I live at 50th and Western and besides neighborhood streets, I don't feel safe riding anywhere around my house.

tehvipir
11-20-2009, 08:44 PM
well the signs that were taken down from no people as you call them were the yard signs. i do think that maybe osme city workers got "pressured" from above without directly telling them to commit the act. I do believe that the city workers union was going to vote no on maps with police and fire but the city "bought them out" and so they changed their minds.
no just the unions. there is a coalition that is made up of many people NOT THIS MAPS. go to www.notthismaps.com. it is more than unions, small business and state congresspeople and city council members so the unions cant take all the credit whether it passes or fails.

Larry OKC
11-20-2009, 10:07 PM
I don't really care whether there are statistics saying it's unsafe for cyclists. There aren't enough of them to create any meaningful data. Your statement reminds me of one my son used to use on me when he was a kid and I caught him doing something dangerous "But I've done it a bunch of times before and I've never gotten hurt".

Riding a bicycle in this city is potentially unsafe. Riding bicycles anywhere there are not bike lanes is a risk. Even with bike lanes there's some risk but it's far less. This is not a bike friendly city. If you were wanting to ride your bike to Lake Hefner, try and think of a way you would do so safely. Try and think of how you would get to the river safely from most places. Yes, if you're fine with potentially not returning from a bike ride, one can ride anywhere in this city. If not, one pretty much has to stick to neighborhood streets.

Need some clarification on the above. Are you saying that MAPS 3 changes that? In what way?

Just FYI but according to the City, currently we have 60 miles of trails with 80 more soon to be complete (through previous bond issues?). That means the City has an astounding 140 MILES of trails. The MAPS 3 proposal will add 57 to that number "virtually completing" the City's master plan of just over 200 MILES of trails. WOW!


Trails, $40 million

A master plan calling for additional bicycle and walking trails all across the city has been largely unfunded. This money would pay for 57 miles of new trails, virtually completing the city’s trails plan.


Not sure why it doesn't complete it, why it just comes close...

Does $702,000/mile seem a bit high for biking/walking trails? At least that is the "cash" price, rather than using bond money (apparently used for the 80 miles soon to be open), when the actual cost is 2 or 3 times (when you include the money paid back in interest). Maybe it's high, maybe it isn't, really don't know the answer.

betts
11-21-2009, 05:31 AM
I recall that Seattle spent about $250 million for bike lanes within the last couple of years. Obviously things are more expensive there, but perhaps that gives a bit of perspective, as they already had a fairly decent system prior to that.

If you haven't read it, here is the OKC Master Trails Plan that is referred to:

http://www.okc.gov/trails/trails_plan.pdf

This isn't a solution, but it's a decent start. It would allow riders (who can cover a lot of ground during a bike ride....it's a simple and quick ride to go the entire length of the trail along the Oklahoma River) to have much longer continuous rides available to them. One of the reasons the system needs to be more extensive is the large physical size of the city. More compact cities don't need as many miles to connect features.

We still need many, many more bike lanes on streets, but the combination of more sidewalks and trails will give safer options for traveling longer distances.

There's an interesting article about the rise of the creative class, and what appeals to them when looking at cities. Although he's got a specific type of person in mind in this article, and we rank quite low in our ability to attract this class, I think you can lump a larger number of young people into the group who are looking for cities where they can get the following type of lifestyle. The urban park plan, bike and walking trails, sidewalks, the kayak course and simply the general renewal of our urban core that has started with the original MAPS and which would be fostered with MAPS 3 are all things that appeal to them:

"The Rise of the Creative Class" by Richard Florida (http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0205.florida.html)

The people I talked to also desired nightlife with a wide mix of options. The most highly valued options were experiential ones---interesting music venues, neighborhood art galleries, performance spaces, and theaters. A vibrant, varied nightlife was viewed by many as another signal that a city "gets it," even by those who infrequently partake in nightlife. More than anything, the creative class craves real experiences in the real world.

They favor active, participatory recreation over passive, institutionalized forms. They prefer indigenous street-level culture---a teeming blend of cafes, sidewalk musicians, and small galleries and bistros, where it is hard to draw the line between performers and spectators. They crave stimulation, not escape. They want to pack their time full of dense, high-quality, multidimensional experiences. Seldom has one of my subjects expressed a desire to get away from it all. They want to get into it all, and do it with eyes wide open.

Creative class people value active outdoor recreation very highly. They are drawn to places and communities where many outdoor activities are prevalent---both because they enjoy these activities and because their presence is seen as a signal that the place is amenable to the broader creative lifestyle. The creative-class people in my studies are into a variety of active sports, from traditional ones like bicycling, jogging, and kayaking to newer, more extreme ones, like trail running and snowboarding.

Places are also valued for authenticity and uniqueness. Authenticity comes from several aspects of a community---historic buildings, established neighborhoods, a unique music scene, or specific cultural attributes. It comes from the mix---from urban grit alongside renovated buildings, from the commingling of young and old, long-time neighborhood characters and yuppies, fashion models and "bag ladies." An authentic place also offers unique and original experiences. Thus a place full of chain stores, chain restaurants, and nightclubs is not authentic. You could have the same experience anywhere.

Larry OKC
11-21-2009, 06:50 AM
I recall that Seattle spent about $250 million for bike lanes within the last couple of years. Obviously things are more expensive there, but perhaps that gives a bit of perspective, as they already had a fairly decent system prior to that.

This may be one of your infamous "apples and oranges"? May be mixing up bike lanes (which probably would be more expensive) and bike trails (as seen in the various renderings under the Trails heading. So still don't know if the cost is high or not.


If you haven't read it, here is the OKC Master Trails Plan that is referred to:

http://www.okc.gov/trails/trails_plan.pdf

Is there a specific section(s) you were wanting to direct? It is a 176 page file...

It looks like the trails under MAPS 3 essentially connects the different segments. Currently if you want to get from one to another, you load up your bike, drive there and then ride. Understand the convenience factor there that this would solve IF that is what you want to do (go from the River to Hefner on your bike).

While I understand that trying to cover that kind of ground is much easier on a bike than on foot, we are still talking about something like 150 miles currently (granted, it is unconnected). Just don't see the real need for 200 miles of uninterrupted trails (walking or biking). Only people I can see utilizing that is marathon type trainings). Even then, there are a myriad of places just along the Grand Boulevard trails where while connected, it is not uninterrupted. You have to spot at every block and deal with crossing traffic.

iron76hd
11-21-2009, 09:36 AM
Amazing! Betts is worried about "Bike Trails". Are you aware that there are families that can barely afford FOOD? There are families that can barely put gas in their car to get to work? There are families that can barely afford their mortgage or rent?

Do you realize that many have lost their jobs right before christmas? Many won't have a Christmas. Many are getting "Pink Slips" daily?

And all i've heard you comment on is the lack of "bike trails". If these people don't vote NO for another tax they are what? If these families vote NO and have the safety of their family as a Priority then what's wrong with that?
Where is all of this TAX money going to come from? You and the few thousand people who still have jobs? The projected money comes from EVERYONE. The Everyone we plan to TAX are UNEMPLOYED! Right? Over 7%! We didn't get 100 million dollars a year when the economy was GREAT and we had 4% unemployment. How are we going to get to the 777 Million? Maybe you can answer. The Mayor can't.
Bike Trails! WOW!:doh:

Easy180
11-21-2009, 09:52 AM
Sure many aren't going to have a fun holiday season but it doesn't make sense to vote down these quality of life improvements because of less than 10% of the population

iron76hd
11-21-2009, 10:07 AM
Sure many aren't going to have a fun holiday season but it doesn't make sense to vote down these quality of life improvements because of less than 10% of the population
What? There are more than 10% struggling out there. Those are the backs you plan to ride to your "quality of life improving" park and bike trails. Why don't we just say "Donate"? Lets make it a Private Park! If you don't want to pay then don't. I mean if your not going to have a "fun" holiday season then don't give. You won't be given access to this great Park is the only downfall. :bright_id

MGE1977
11-21-2009, 10:09 AM
Obviously, you are far removed... While you are at it, lets stairstep all the wheelchair ramps. Hey your voice must be all nasally what without a nose and all, why'd you cut it off again?

Your argument might be the worst pro-MIII that I've heard.

MGE1977
11-21-2009, 10:10 AM
Sure many aren't going to have a fun holiday season but it doesn't make sense to vote down these quality of life improvements because of less than 10% of the population


Obviously, you are far removed... While you are at it, lets stairstep all the wheelchair ramps. Hey your voice must be all nasally what without a nose and all, why'd you cut it off again?

Your argument might be the worst pro-MIII that I've heard.

Easy180
11-21-2009, 10:12 AM
What? There are more than 10% struggling out there. Those are the backs you plan to ride to your "quality of life improving" park and bike trails. Why don't we just say "Donate"? Lets make it a Private Park! If you don't want to pay then don't. I mean if your not going to have a "fun" holiday season then don't give. You won't be given access to this great Park is the only downfall. :bright_id

We are all forced to donate to them so I'm fine with them having to throw some back at us to help fund for our highly successful MAPS projects

venture
11-21-2009, 10:18 AM
Sure many aren't going to have a fun holiday season but it doesn't make sense to vote down these quality of life improvements because of less than 10% of the population

Just an observation here, since I don't care one way or the other in this vote. Easy's point is valid , but so would be reversing it. Maybe it doesn't make sense to vote for these improvements because only about 10% of the population is actually going to use them? Maybe it doesn't make sense to vote at all for items like these cause only 10% of the population actually gets out and votes on these off peak (non-November) ballot elections. Okay that may be a stretch...because 20-30% will probably show to vote, well maybe not that much.

There are good points on both sides. I'm in Norman so I don't get a vote. Has MAPS impacted me? You could argue that the first round of projects have helped OKC to get to this point and allow us to take for granted what we have today. MAPS3 has some good projects, and it has some worthless projects. I think people may be tired of everything concentrated on downtown (for the most part) and really don't get a damn about bike trails. For me, Bricktown has lost any appeal. I have zero reason to go there because I can get whatever I want elsewhere. I think it is almost 2 years now since I've stepped foot down there. Use to go pretty regularly to eat, catch a movie, walk around, what have you. I still do all those things, but there are better venues (for me) to do those.

With all that said. MAPS3 should still pass thanks to the 10% that actually show up to vote. It'll make downtown look totally different in 2020 than it does today.

Easy180
11-21-2009, 10:19 AM
What? There are more than 10% struggling out there. Those are the backs you plan to ride to your "quality of life improving" park and bike trails. Why don't we just say "Donate"? Lets make it a Private Park! If you don't want to pay then don't. I mean if your not going to have a "fun" holiday season then don't give. You won't be given access to this great Park is the only downfall. :bright_id

I would think most of the poor would benefit greatly by the park...10 bucks a month for a limited time to get free weekend outings for the family for years to come

Even if they have to use the bike trails to get there :rude:

iron76hd
11-21-2009, 10:47 AM
I would think most of the poor would benefit greatly by the park.
Maybe they could catch you roller blading through it. You'd wait 11 minutes for the Police to show up. They'd be long gone by then. With only a few bums as witnesses. mmmmm your right they would benefit. :doh:

Blazerfan11
11-21-2009, 10:52 AM
Its not like they've hired Amy Mcree to do I "I dont want to be the central park jogger!" ad

Easy180
11-21-2009, 02:03 PM
Maybe they could catch you roller blading through it. You'd wait 11 minutes for the Police to show up. They'd be long gone by then. With only a few bums as witnesses. mmmmm your right they would benefit. :doh:

I guess you are right...Get tired of seeing the reports of the dozens of muggings at Lake Hefner on a daily basis...Why you never see anyone out there anymore

iron76hd
11-21-2009, 02:07 PM
I guess you are right...Get tired of seeing the reports of the dozens of muggings at Lake Hefner on a daily basis...Why you never see anyone out there anymore
How many crimes did we have in that are last year? Do you know? Is the new park location and lake hefner the same? Not....:LolLolLol

Easy180
11-21-2009, 02:14 PM
How many crimes did we have in that are last year? Do you know? Is the new park location and lake hefner the same? Not....:LolLolLol

If you count the walked tabs at Louie's I'm guessing 10 or so

Chance23
11-22-2009, 08:41 PM
I would think most of the poor would benefit greatly by the park...10 bucks a month for a limited time to get free weekend outings for the family for years to come

Even if they have to use the bike trails to get there :rude:

They'd have to get in there cars to drive downtown for it though, and gas prices are expensive in the months it'd get its peak use.

You know, a downtown park may be nice, but would they not better benefit from a nearby park? Why is downtown the only focus when OKC is one of the biggest cities by area in this country? NYC, which has about half of the land area, has 1700 parks. People don't have to use Central Park, they can walk (yes, walk) to a park in their area. Would it not be greener to have parks throughout the city, so that people didn't have to get into their cars and drive to it from southeast OKC to enjoy nature?

betts
11-22-2009, 09:21 PM
One of Oklahoma city's biggest problems is it's size. What would REALLY be nice would be to have mass transit that would allow all of us to get to the park without driving. But there is also something unique about a community park where people from all over the city can join together. Ever been to a festival or concert at Millenium park in Chicago? Regardless of your politics I would hope you could appreciate the tremendous sense of community we saw in Chicago when the city gathered there to hear Obama's acceptance speech. I think it's easy to underestimate the importance of public spaces like that on a city's spirit.

Chance23
11-22-2009, 09:42 PM
One of Oklahoma city's biggest problems is it's size. What would REALLY be nice would be to have mass transit that would allow all of us to get to the park without driving. But there is also something unique about a community park where people from all over the city can join together. Ever been to a festival or concert at Millenium park in Chicago? Regardless of your politics I would hope you could appreciate the tremendous sense of community we saw in Chicago when the city gathered there to hear Obama's acceptance speech. I think it's easy to underestimate the importance of public spaces like that on a city's spirit.

Like I said, NYC has, listed, more than 1700 areas. They have a damn fine mass transit, but they're not putting all the importance in one big park. They know people need things close to where they live. Otherwise, people would be forced to drive from the outskirts of the city to enjoy it, which increases traffic, exacerbates any perceived parking problems, and does far more to hurt the environment than any green space the park would provide.

It's not underestimating the importance of public spaces at all, in the slightest. There's nothing even resembling that. I'm stating that people are going overboard on the value of one big one if it came at the expense of all the others. Having a big central park is fine, but there's little value in forcing people to use that while other parks go unfunded. Stating that the park will give people a chance at a cheap outing is fine, but so would parks around the city, so would current parks if they were better supported. You can have that park and have it be an option, but you can't make it the option, which a lot of critics are seeing it as. Why has this one been decided to be downtown? There are a lot of populated areas of the city that could use it. That alone isn't enough reason. You can't be solely downtown minded when expecting people to support measures. That's fine for those living downtown, but most people don't go downtown that often. They won't keep subsidizing the mayor's playthings. If people are looking nearby and seeing their parks are going unfunded, you can't reasonably make the claim that they're marginalizing the importance of public space.

Larry OKC
11-22-2009, 09:51 PM
...You know, a downtown park may be nice, but would they not better benefit from a nearby park? Why is downtown the only focus when OKC is one of the biggest cities by area in this country? NYC, which has about half of the land area, has 1700 parks. People don't have to use Central Park, they can walk (yes, walk) to a park in their area. Would it not be greener to have parks throughout the city, so that people didn't have to get into their cars and drive to it from southeast OKC to enjoy nature?

OKC large land size can definitely be misleading. Probably better to compare us with other cities that have similar populations and square miles. Or at least parks/acreage per capita.

While we don't have anywhere near 1700 parks (how many acres?), we aren't devoid of parks either. City of Oklahoma City | City Parks (http://okc.gov/Parks/parks_maps/list.html) lists about 113 parks in the OKC City limits comprising "more than 6,900 land acres". So adding a 70 acre Park is adding 1% to the City's acreage total. Not a huge increase.

While the downtown 70 acre park is certainly the (park) focus of MAPS 3, parks are being taken care of most recently in the 2007 General Obligation bond issue.

By the way, did anyone else catch the full page MAPS 3 ad in Saturday's Oklahoman? It was about the Park and the size has dropped from the 70 acres back to the 40 acres (as mentioned in the C2S material). It also mentioned there were going to be formal playing fields ("sports fields"...softball, soccer etc) which I had seen previously as not being part of the "Central Park" but in the string of parks extending South, on the other side of the Skydancer Bridge crossing the new I-40? At least not part of any of the renderings that I have seen of the "Park"...