I have heard from "a very reliable source" that a few of our NBA players have been bad-mouthing OKC as "boring" and "too quiet." Now, I'm not too offended by this because, let's face it, each person has a different taste for what they like and NBA players are just the same as everyone else. Some players will love the quiet and laid-back lifestyle, while some won't, so it's inevitable we're going to have some players bored while others enjoy the change of pace from the bigger cities. There are two issues, though:

1) I don't think OKC is really that boring. If you're expecting a 24 hour club scene like NYC, then sure it is. But I also don't like our players talking crap about the city to other people, thereby feeding the false generalizations and stereotypes about the state.

2) What improvements can we make to OKC to make this a more entertaining for people of the "celebrity" type? Of course, we shouldn't ever try to change an entire city based on a single, narrow demographic. But we can make smaller improvements in certain sections of the city that provide the type of entertainment these people are looking for. We can improve Bricktown, open more clubs (not enough people to go to them, though?), open more restaurants, etc. This, however, seems like it's something that will naturally occur over time and it's not a problem we can "fix."

You know what - they're getting paid millions of dollars and I'll bet you they get over it. I just wonder at what point do we quit worrying about what others think of us, and instead focus on what we want in a city.

If the worst thing that can be said about OKC is that some NBA players think its boring, I'm not too worried.

I have lived in NYC, LA, SF, New Orleans and DC but picked OKC to retire in.

I also dont find OKC to be that boring. We have a great library, art museum, golf courses, activities on the river, access to who knows how many Indian Casinos, and we are a short drive to two major NCAA Sporting Venues.

We also have several service organizations (rotary, lions, kiwanis), many Churches, and many neighborhood organizations.

If it takes a fast and loose lifestyle to make these celebrities happy, maybe we should concentrate a little more on character issues in our future drafts or other player acquisitions. However, when I did live in larger cities, it seemed as if the "celebrities" always wanted their privacy. Not sure how they can have privacy and nonstop entertainment venues at the same time.

It sure would be nice to know who is complaining. Hope it was not any of our top four (durant, green, westbrook, hardin) draft choices.

I actually might be worried if some of those guys thought this place was exciting.

On the other hand, if you look at the demographic here, what's the message? Oklahoma City is boring for young adults between 20 and 30? I think some people would tell you "yes". I actually think that's a significant issue. That's an age group which is deciding where to seek jobs after graduation, and ultimately where to settle and raise a family. Ironically, having an NBA team is one of the things that will appeal to people in this age group who don't happen to be doing the entertaining. My older children all left, pretty much for that reason. What would they like to see? More clubs, not just in Bricktown, but around the city center. Better shopping. They're both girls, and this is a key issue. We cannot compete with other cities for non-department store shopping options at this point in time. I remember Russell Westbrook, on one of his radio spots, said that in his free time he goes to the mall. We don't really have a lot of the middle to high end chains in our malls. More professional sports....hard to change that one.

Again, growing the city itself, making our downtown a vibrant, exciting place in which to live and/or recreate, is a key factor to reversing the post college brain drain we've been experiencing as long as I've lived here. It's definitely getting better, and I do know a fair number of young people who are now deciding to stay, but not enough to generate as many clubs, restaurants, retail and leisure time activities to appeal to this age group across the board.

Pro athletes have been saying things like that about virtually every city other than L.A. and New York... It's been going on for decades.

Basketball is a little different, though, in that it is mainly an urban game and lots of the players come from big cities.

Regardless, the reality is that most these guys only spend a few years on any one team and I doubt few of them get connected to any town.

making our downtown a vibrant, exciting place in which to live and/or recreate, is a key factor to reversing the post college brain drain we've been experiencing as long as I've lived here.

This is very true... Although a lot of attention is given attracting the 'creative class' the bottom line is that lots (if not most) that graduate from the bigger local colleges leave; if not immediately, not long after graduation.

I graduated from OU in 1982 and stay in touch with a bunch of my college friends, and very few still live in Oklahoma. A few have returned now that things are a bit better but I think the large majority would never left if there was a more dynamic job market and just a more exciting environment for the 20- and 30-somethings.

I have lived in NYC, LA, SF, New Orleans and DC but picked OKC to retire in.

I also dont find OKC to be that boring. We have a great library, art museum, golf courses, activities on the river, access to who knows how many Indian Casinos, and we are a short drive to two major NCAA Sporting Venues.

We also have several service organizations (rotary, lions, kiwanis), many Churches, and many neighborhood organizations.

If it takes a fast and loose lifestyle to make these celebrities happy, maybe we should concentrate a little more on character issues in our future drafts or other player acquisitions. However, when I did live in larger cities, it seemed as if the "celebrities" always wanted their privacy. Not sure how they can have privacy and nonstop entertainment venues at the same time.

It sure would be nice to know who is complaining. Hope it was not any of our top four (durant, green, westbrook, hardin) draft choices.


News flash: having an abundance of chuches is not considered an asset to many people. And NBA coaches draft to win, not to recruit for the local church choir.

Instead of being defensive about it, let's acknowledge the fact that this city has a ways to go in the dining and entertainment area to join the big league city list.

Steve, we're not shooting to be Omaha. A little criticism is fair and warranted.

We lose a lot of our citizens and natives to more exciting cities. That is why we are trying to pass things like MAPS.

We don't even have an upscale grocery in our city. Think about that!

OKC is cool but we have a ways to go.

I just wonder at what point do we quit worrying about what others think of us, and instead focus on what we want in a city.

Ummm, what if what we want is precisely for it to be more exciting?


I actually might be worried if some of those guys thought this place was exciting.

Ha. So true.

2) What improvements can we make to OKC to make this a more entertaining for people of the "celebrity" type? Of course, we shouldn't ever try to change an entire city based on a single, narrow demographic. But we can make smaller improvements in certain sections of the city that provide the type of entertainment these people are looking for. We can improve Bricktown, open more clubs (not enough people to go to them, though?), open more restaurants, etc. This, however, seems like it's something that will naturally occur over time and it's not a problem we can "fix."

Pass things like MAPS 3 that drastically and exponentially improve the quality of life in our City, so we can halfway compare to other major cities that have more amenities.

What is often lost in these types of discussions is that having a lively, hip and somewhat dense urban core is not mutually exclusive to what so many love about OKC right now: The low cost of living, nice suburbs, churches and community, etc.

We have plenty of all the stuff just listed... But we don't have ONE truly urban area -- at least not one that has been fully developed.

Until we do, these criticisms will resonate with a lot more than just pro athletes.

It is something we should be take seriously for precisely the reasons stated before, these men are part of the young crowd that have left this state. Being dismissive or defensive about it doesnt' help, we need to look at why they are saying it and see if there's something we can do about it.

Pete is right, people have been saying that about every city that's not LA and NY for decades, but I don't think it does any good to be dismissing of it all.

On the other hand, if you look at the demographic here, what's the message? Oklahoma City is boring for young adults between 20 and 30? I think some people would tell you "yes". I actually think that's a significant issue. That's an age group which is deciding where to seek jobs after graduation, and ultimately where to settle and raise a family. Ironically, having an NBA team is one of the things that will appeal to people in this age group who don't happen to be doing the entertaining. My older children all left, pretty much for that reason. What would they like to see? More clubs, not just in Bricktown, but around the city center. Better shopping. They're both girls, and this is a key issue. We cannot compete with other cities for non-department store shopping options at this point in time. I remember Russell Westbrook, on one of his radio spots, said that in his free time he goes to the mall. We don't really have a lot of the middle to high end chains in our malls. More professional sports....hard to change that one.

Again, growing the city itself, making our downtown a vibrant, exciting place in which to live and/or recreate, is a key factor to reversing the post college brain drain we've been experiencing as long as I've lived here. It's definitely getting better, and I do know a fair number of young people who are now deciding to stay, but not enough to generate as many clubs, restaurants, retail and leisure time activities to appeal to this age group across the board.

Exactly. As much as I'm a big cheerleader for our City, and it's an exciting TIME to live in our City, we are NOT an exciting CITY. The quality of life issue still has leaps and bounds improved, but we are still light years behind other cities, let alone to be on the same level as cities the same size, or sadly even smaller, then there's the fact that we're trying to shoot ahead of peer markets. As a now 30 yr old, formerly twentysomething until this last month, there is a LOT lacking in our City that I would like to see, and frankly if I was single, I would move. As betts said, we need wayyy more shopping options, more vibrant and active downtown, public transit, several corridors of hustle and bustle with lots of activity, more large employers, an upscale grocery, etc. We can't even compete with a suburb of Dallas, or even cities like Wichita or Omaha on some levels. We still have a longggggg way to go. Despite all this, I still call the place home and will be raising my family here for the indefinite future, but sure am proud of our progress and our forward thinking. For us future generations and our future kids and grandkids, please don't iron wall things like MAPS 3, as we may see the brain drain increase again, and make people like myself think twice about living here. Believe it or not, but if MAPS3 fails, I guarantee you we will have lots of the younger generation packing bags for greener pastures again. Let's continue the momentum and make our own green pasture!

2) What improvements can we make to OKC to make this a more entertaining for people of the "celebrity" type?

I'm thinking truck in some hookers and blow.

OKC is boring by their standards. Who cares?

Its not like they live here full time. 4-5 months off in summer to go whereever. 6-7 months here, half of which is spent on the road. I don't know about a lot of people but when I go visit bigger cities where it's more exciting and not quiet, I welcome the quietness and laidbackneed (if that's even a word) when I come back home.

So OKC is boring? Hopefully, then, we won't be the host city to a Plaxico Burris incident or a Darrent Williams murder or a Jasper Howard murder (UCONN player). I hope there are enough places for athletes to blow off some steam so the Jeff Reed's (Steelers kicker) don't go around vandalizing property. The only thing we will have to worry about is someone starts to make their own "excitement" and we have another Michael Vick dogfighting case or something.

I have heard from "a very reliable source" that a few of our NBA players have been bad-mouthing OKC as "boring" and "too quiet."

That is an improvement because 5 years ago most NBA players were saying, "Where is OKC?"

Okay, here is my take. A lot of people that come to Oklahoma City say it’s boring compared to other cities. Very well. I can’t argue with them. But here is my problem. There are no suggestions for improvements, no suggestions for amenities we are missing, and absolutely no insight from the person complaining about what other cities offer to meet their needs that we do not have.

What amenities do you want to see in OKC? What stores? What types of clubs? I mean, we can hammer on OKC all day for a lack of amenities, but I can tell you it is not altogether Oklahoma City’s fault. There are stores than can compete in OKC but just flat out won’t for some reason or another that I don’t buy, such as Whole Foods and Costco Warehouse.

But seriously, lay out the details. What is it you want to see in OKC?

Pass things like MAPS 3 that drastically and exponentially improve the quality of life in our City, so we can halfway compare to other major cities that have more amenities.


Believe it or not, but if MAPS3 fails, I guarantee you we will have lots of the younger generation packing bags for greener pastures again. Let's continue the momentum and make our own green pasture!

Really?

Frankly, I'm getting a little sick of all this doom-and-gloom associated with MAPS3 not passing.

About an hour ago I emailed the 28 20-somethings I work with with one question: "If MAPS3 doesn't pass, will you move or consider moving out of OKC"

All but 3 of them replied back with "what the [blank] is MAPS3?"

The 3 who did reply all basically said they were voting No because they don't live in the Downtown area.

Is there something in MAPS3 that is specifically geared towards keeping or drawing 20-30 year olds to OKC?

Personally, I don't see a Trolley system as drawing them here as the people I work with couldn't give a crap about it, it has zero impact on their lives. Same with a Senior Citizen Aquatic center.

I've looked at the list of projects and quite frankly don't see anything of interest on it for my age demographic. I think the Trolley idea is neat, but if it is going to consume a lane of traffic it will be yet another reason for me to not go DT. If I want to go whitewater kayaking, I'll go to Alaska, Penn or CA and not risk catching e coli in a "pretend" whitewater facility.

And while a park is always nice, this is OKLAHOMA. If I or anyone else my age really wants to enjoy the outdoors and beauty of Oklahoma, we'll go see Oklahoma in its natural glory. I know the guys in my group who hunt or fish have almost no complaints about Oklahoma, why doesn't the tourism board promote that aspect of the State?

I know one thing that could be done that would probably keep the 20-30 age crowd in OKC, or atleast keep them here on the weekends a little more. Plus it wouldn't cost $700 million to implement: repeal the antiquated liquor laws.

Really?

Frankly, I'm getting a little sick of all this doom-and-gloom associated with MAPS3 not passing.

About an hour ago I emailed the 28 20-somethings I work with with one question: "If MAPS3 doesn't pass, will you move or consider moving out of OKC"

All but 3 of them replied back with "what the [blank] is MAPS3?"

The 3 who did reply all basically said they were voting No because they don't live in the Downtown area.

Is there something in MAPS3 that is specifically geared towards keeping or drawing 20-30 year olds to OKC?

Personally, I don't see a Trolley system as drawing them here as the people I work with couldn't give a crap about it, it has zero impact on their lives. Same with a Senior Citizen Aquatic center.

I've looked at the list of projects and quite frankly don't see anything of interest on it for my age demographic. I think the Trolley idea is neat, but if it is going to consume a lane of traffic it will be yet another reason for me to not go DT. If I want to go whitewater kayaking, I'll go to Alaska, Penn or CA and not risk catching e coli in a "pretend" whitewater facility.

And while a park is always nice, this is OKLAHOMA. If I or anyone else my age really wants to enjoy the outdoors and beauty of Oklahoma, we'll go see Oklahoma in its natural glory. I know the guys in my group who hunt or fish have almost no complaints about Oklahoma, why doesn't the tourism board promote that aspect of the State?

I know one thing that could be done that would probably keep the 20-30 age crowd in OKC, or atleast keep them here on the weekends a little more. Plus it wouldn't cost $700 million to implement: repeal the antiquated liquor laws.

jc, I understand some of what you are saying however, you aren't looking past your nose. I would imagine you and your 20-something co-workers probably spend a decent amount of time partying in Bricktown. If MAPS hadn't passed, do you think there would be a Bricktown of any consequence?

MAPS3 may not contain anything you directly might use today, but MAPS3 is an investment today for something you (or certainly some of your co-workers)WILL use some day.

If MAPS3 passed today, few of the projects would be completed in 3 years. By that time, some of you 20-somethings will be 30-somethings and getting married and having kids. A large central park, if done right, would be a wonderful focal point to go to on nice weekends. That nice new convention center would be a great place for you to get all domestic and go see the spring home improvement and gardening shows or the Great American Beer festival.

I am not trying to insult you or your age group but some things in life don't give you immediate gratification. As you age, you will see that some investments won't pay off for 25 or even 50 years. This is one of those types of things. OKC wasn't lucky to be built next to the ocean, a large river, a large lake, mountains or a great forest. OKC has to create out of nothing virtually everything we have. The city wasn't laid out for beautification, either, so there are times money needs to be spent to take an area such as the Core-to-Shore area and re-create it.

Few cities have had even fewer opportunities to transform such a large area of the central city in the way OKC is proposing. It won't happen overnight, but, like with MAPS, there is a point where private developers take over from the foundation laid by a public plan (such as MAPS3) and will create things you will be glad you had the foresight to envision 10,20 or 30 years prior.

Some people just don't get it, and that's ok. But for those of us who do, or who want these amenities in Oklahoma, (some on this site don't live here and moved to greener pastures but would like to return), this is our only and best shot!!

Have them (Thunder Players) get back to us after they win more than 20 games.

I think their win / loss record is boring. And judging by pre-season play this years win / loss record won't be much better.

Seriously who cares, we are talking about a team of 12 to 15 players.

okclee, I think we've established the point we shouldn't be too worried what the players think, but that age demographic in general, the "creative class" age 18-35 or so IS what we should focus on. I don't think anyone is strictly debating we care solely on what the players think.

I'm a HUGE OKC cheerleader/supporter, and as I mentioned above, I can't argue with the alleged points of these NBA players. There are still plenty of our young folks leaving state, not as many as 10 years ago, but if MAPS 3, I can all but guarantee that the number will increase some because of it. Many are waiting around because we have the BEST OPPORTUNITY to bring desired amenities to this City, and are waiting to see if we will take this OPPORTUNITY, or leave it behind and settle for mediocrity. Most people don't want to spend their entire life staying here waiting what might become, they want some certainty that things will get better. Things like MAPS 3 can solidify a LOT of faith in the forward momentum of this City.

If I was a 25-year-old, multi-million-dollar NBA player, I'd WANT to play/live in the Midwest. I'd spend $3 million on a house v. $10 million, party at home, and spend the savings on G-V & Citation X jet shares to fly me and the posse to Aspen and the coasts.

jc, I understand some of what you are saying however, you aren't looking past your nose. I would imagine you and your 20-something co-workers probably spend a decent amount of time partying in Bricktown. If MAPS hadn't passed, do you think there would be a Bricktown of any consequence?


No, I believe I am "looking past my nose". my co-workers and I have spent some time in Bricktown. We usually check out the new clubs and bars as soon as they open. We haven't spent a large amount of time there because most of the clubs and bars in bricktown are, well, boring. That's one of the reasons why we go to Dallas alot, or just have parties at each other's house.

I get what you're saying about this taking time and not being an instant-gratification deal. MAPS started when? 16 years ago?

In that time the previous 2 MAPS initiatives obviously didn't lay the foundations for private devolpers to start taking over, otherwise there's be no dire need for another initiative; what guarantee is there that MAPS3 will lay this foundation? Or MAPS4 or MAPS5?

Perhaps if there was something in the plan for the 20-30 age group, but there isn't and there hasn't been. Sure, we might use a convention center that might be built when we're older, but there's plenty of other cities to choose from that already have a history of large, successful conventions on top of a thriving night-life and huge selection of places to shop.

And the Great American Beer festival?? I don't know if they're coming here anytime soon, but I personally can't see it happening if the product they're celebrating isn't even legal in this state.

No, I believe I am "looking past my nose". my co-workers and I have spent some time in Bricktown. We usually check out the new clubs and bars as soon as they open. We haven't spent a large amount of time there because most of the clubs and bars in bricktown are, well, boring. That's one of the reasons why we go to Dallas alot, or just have parties at each other's house.

I get what you're saying about this taking time and not being an instant-gratification deal. MAPS started when? 16 years ago?

In that time the previous 2 MAPS initiatives obviously didn't lay the foundations for private devolpers to start taking over, otherwise there's be no dire need for another initiative; what guarantee is there that MAPS3 will lay this foundation? Or MAPS4 or MAPS5?

Perhaps if there was something in the plan for the 20-30 age group, but there isn't and there hasn't been. Sure, we might use a convention center that might be built when we're older, but there's plenty of other cities to choose from that already have a history of large, successful conventions on top of a thriving night-life and huge selection of places to shop.

And the Great American Beer festival?? I don't know if they're coming here anytime soon, but I personally can't see it happening if the product they're celebrating isn't even legal in this state.

Okay, so what makes a club boring? What does Dallas have as far as clubs go that draws you guys their a lot. Please elaborate.

And, what beer is the Great American Beer festival celebrating?

I have 2 daughters who graduated from OU and migrated to Dallas. They are both software developers and neither OKC or Tulsa had enough high paying jobs in their field. That's the first thing that will keep our college graduates in Oklahoma.

When they first moved to Dallas, they lived a few blocks from the American Airlines Center. They liked the downtown lifestyle - expecially the abundance of non-chain, ethnic restaurants. Eventually, they both decided downtown was too expensive and a lot of the people were too pretentious. But they still like the abundance and variety of dining and shopping in the area. They do grow tired of the traffic and the time it takes to get from one place to another, though.

I do think if there were jobs in the Norman or Tulsa area that paid comparable to what they make now, they could be very happy in Oklahoma.

First, if I were a fresh out of college guy making a few million a year, there arent many cities I could live in that would satisfy me completely. OKC isnt and hasnt been geared to satisfy that demographic simply because there arent many of them.
Second, just because some say they are bored doesnt mean they are wild, criminal minded thugs looking for drugs, chicks and dog fighting. Come on.


About an hour ago I emailed the 28 20-somethings I work with with one question: "If MAPS3 doesn't pass, will you move or consider moving out of OKC"
All but 3 of them replied back with "what the [blank] is MAPS3?"
The 3 who did reply all basically said they were voting No because they don't live in the Downtown area.
Is there something in MAPS3 that is specifically geared towards keeping or drawing 20-30 year olds to OKC?
Personally, I don't see a Trolley system as drawing them here as the people I work with couldn't give a crap about it, it has zero impact on their lives. Same with a Senior Citizen Aquatic center.
I've looked at the list of projects and quite frankly don't see anything of interest on it for my age demographic. I think the Trolley idea is neat, but if it is going to consume a lane of traffic it will be yet another reason for me to not go DT. If I want to go whitewater kayaking, I'll go to Alaska, Penn or CA and not risk catching e coli in a "pretend" whitewater facility.
And while a park is always nice, this is OKLAHOMA. If I or anyone else my age really wants to enjoy the outdoors and beauty of Oklahoma, we'll go see Oklahoma in its natural glory. I know the guys in my group who hunt or fish have almost no complaints about Oklahoma, why doesn't the tourism board promote that aspect of the State?
I know one thing that could be done that would probably keep the 20-30 age crowd in OKC, or atleast keep them here on the weekends a little more. Plus it wouldn't cost $700 million to implement: repeal the antiquated liquor laws.
Im curious to know where you work that you have that many uninformed co-workers. I find it sad and frankly hard to believe that 25 of 28 twenty year-olds dont know what MAPS is.
As for your opinions on MAPS3. These things are supposed to increase quality of life, spur development, and bring in more money to the city (mostly through the convention center and fair ground improvments). These things then get more people to live, work, shop, play here in this city, which in turn brings in even more money to the city which they can then dole out for other needs. Thats how it works and this is what big cities do.
The other option, I guess, is to sit around and do nothing and hope things change.
And I agree with changing some of our old liqour laws, but seriously, no one has moved out of OKC because they couldnt get a bottle of wine in a grocery store. And that is not a city thing but a state law, whole different issue.

Wow, that was too long of a post.

I have 2 daughters who graduated from OU and migrated to Dallas. They are both software developers and neither OKC or Tulsa had enough high paying jobs in their field. That's the first thing that will keep our college graduates in Oklahoma.

When they first moved to Dallas, they lived a few blocks from the American Airlines Center. They liked the downtown lifestyle - expecially the abundance of non-chain, ethnic restaurants. Eventually, they both decided downtown was too expensive and a lot of the people were too pretentious. But they still like the abundance and variety of dining and shopping in the area. They do grow tired of the traffic and the time it takes to get from one place to another, though.

I do think if there were jobs in the Norman or Tulsa area that paid comparable to what they make now, they could be very happy in Oklahoma. Agree! I have brought the issue up on previous threads about getting more quality jobs and luring HQ to our city, however, my perception and response from others were not what I had expected? I moved to Dallas because I was struggling living in OKC making $10.00 hour with a college education. Until OKC addresses this issue, then the city will continue to have a brain drain and the young adults will move to a more vibrant area where they are able to flourish. On another note, OKC is making strides and I hope for the sake of it's residents that MAPS 3 passes and OKC continues the momentum.

Here's how too many NBA players spend their money, and the reason I'm more than ever motivated to continue my path to being debt-free (something most young professionals aren't concerned with).

Former Celtics star Antoine Walker is broke and in debt - Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Former-Celtics-star-Antoine-Walker-is-broke-and-;_ylt=Av2dlCIcV0.fBoAsAaLsAaO8vLYF?urn=nba,198509)

No, I believe I am "looking past my nose". my co-workers and I have spent some time in Bricktown. We usually check out the new clubs and bars as soon as they open. We haven't spent a large amount of time there because most of the clubs and bars in bricktown are, well, boring. That's one of the reasons why we go to Dallas alot, or just have parties at each other's house.

I get what you're saying about this taking time and not being an instant-gratification deal. MAPS started when? 16 years ago?

In that time the previous 2 MAPS initiatives obviously didn't lay the foundations for private devolpers to start taking over, otherwise there's be no dire need for another initiative; what guarantee is there that MAPS3 will lay this foundation? Or MAPS4 or MAPS5?

Perhaps if there was something in the plan for the 20-30 age group, but there isn't and there hasn't been. Sure, we might use a convention center that might be built when we're older, but there's plenty of other cities to choose from that already have a history of large, successful conventions on top of a thriving night-life and huge selection of places to shop.

And the Great American Beer festival?? I don't know if they're coming here anytime soon, but I personally can't see it happening if the product they're celebrating isn't even legal in this state.

Are you kidding? MASS TRANSIT alone is a MAJOR draw to young professionals, add in a world class signature urban park, river improvements and a new convention center (least used by locals, but we see the economic benefit and necessity of one) will be a HUGE propeller forward. MAPS 1 was just to get us to have any amenities, MAPS 2 was for school kids, and will pay dividends down the road, MAPS 3 is for the future and much more about quality of life than previous ones. Secondly, that attitude is the problem with the younger generation, because most of us have only lived during boom periods, and haven't experienced (or been old enough to understand much) a major economic downslide. Most expect instant gratification, this is a MAJOR INFRASTRUCTURE INVESTMENT that takes years and even decades to see the full results. It's not build it and opening day it's instant success and major league city results, but it's a great start!

I don't understand why so many people in Oklahoma actually seem hostile to change -- even if it is positive. I'm a lifelong Oklahoman myself, but why wouldn't people want to see our city improve and diversify? Why wouldn't they want that for our state?

The fact is there are a lot of backward people in Oklahoma. Don't know why they are, but they are.

The thing is, a lot of us love the state the way it is. To want to improve it is one thing. To want to fundamentally change it into something else is something entirely different. Part of the problem is that certain people are very quick to label it, call it (and its people) ugly names, and just essentially trash it. Results in many people getting defensive.

And part of the problem is that many of us love it BECAUSE it isn't like so many other places. We have been there, done that, and think OKC is just better, for us. There isn't any other place quite like it. Does that make us rednecks, backwards, yokels or what have you? Some seem to think so. But plenty of us have lived other places and have something to compare it to and still reach that conclusion. We didn't read about other places in books or go on vacation somewhere and see how the tourists get around. Trashing your home is just classless.

But I also don't like our players talking crap about the city to other people, thereby feeding the false generalizations and stereotypes about the state.

All stereo types and generalizations are there for a reason! You think the general concensus is that Jews are cheap just because someone wants to be mean? What about Asians being good at math? Mexicans living 14 to an apartment? All well-founded stereotypes. OKC (and Oklahoma, in general) is not an exiting place and probably never will be. Personally, I think it is due to the Bible Belt and an overall conservative atmosphere. Argue it all you want. You want OKC to change to a more hip place like NYC or LA? BRING IN SINNERS!

That said, I think the Christian values that are taught help keep OKC a nice place.

Compared to the cities mentioned elsewhere in this thread, you guys have a great economy, relatively little crime, and a growing downtown area.

Why change things? If you want change, try one of the other places. Oklahoma is not the place.

You know what - they're getting paid millions of dollars and I'll bet you they get over it. I just wonder at what point do we quit worrying about what others think of us, and instead focus on what we want in a city.

Couldn't agree more!

PennyMamma: "I'm thinking truck in some hookers and blow."

LOVE IT!!!



Have them (Thunder Players) get back to us after they win more than 20 games.

I think their win / loss record is boring. And judging by pre-season play this years win / loss record won't be much better.

Seriously who cares, we are talking about a team of 12 to 15 players.

^^^And OMG I ABSOLUTELY DIED!! LOL

In that time the previous 2 MAPS initiatives obviously didn't lay the foundations for private devolpers to start taking over, otherwise there's be no dire need for another initiative; what guarantee is there that MAPS3 will lay this foundation? Or MAPS4 or MAPS5?

I truly don't know what you are talking about if you don't think private development has taken over within Bricktown. I believe the last figure I heard was something to the tune of $600 - 700 million in new private development money. If the economy hadn't gone bust and if credit were available there would be 4-5 other projects being built in that area right now. Devon Energy has said it wouldn't be here building a $700 million office building if it hadn't been for MAPS. I doubt the (don't know the exact number but I am guessing something in the neighborhood of) $50 million to renovate the Skirvin Hotel wouldn't have been done without MAPS.

As for MAPS3, nothing is guaranteed but it also focuses on a different part of the Central Business District - an expanded CBD that ties downtown and Bricktown with the River Lakes. Its taking a terribly blighted area and developing part of it for public use while reserving a large area for private development once the Core to Shore "foundation" has been set. On the contrary to what you seem to feel, MAPS3 and (if there is a) MAPS4 aren't there due to some sort of shortcoming of the first MAPS, they are being pushed BECAUSE OF THE RESOUNDING SUCCESS OF MAPS.


Perhaps if there was something in the plan for the 20-30 age group, but there isn't and there hasn't been. Sure, we might use a convention center that might be built when we're older, but there's plenty of other cities to choose from that already have a history of large, successful conventions on top of a thriving night-life and huge selection of places to shop.

Exactly what is it that you would be looking for that the 20-30 age group would want that is the type of thing this type of project can fund? Maybe give us an example? Just remember, by the time these projects would be completed, you probably won't be a 20-30 something but a 30-40 something - maybe married, maybe with children - and with totally different priorities.

A thriving night life and a huge selection of places to shop will never happen without an influx of residents into the downtown area. Last I saw, neither downtown Dallas or the Uptown area or the arena area have a large amount of retail. As for night life, sure Dallas has more of that but remember how both West End and Deep Ellum have gone away as night life areas replaced by Uptown and Legacy in Plano.

MAPS3 clears a huge blighted area full of junk car lots and boarded up buildings, creates a large central park and convention center, and sets aside large areas of land extremely suitable for condo and apartment development.


And the Great American Beer festival?? I don't know if they're coming here anytime soon, but I personally can't see it happening if the product they're celebrating isn't even legal in this state.

Why not? They don't come now because OKC doesn't have a suitably large facility for it. As far as I am aware, there is nothing illegal about it. I am sure there are permits to be obtained but OK's liquor laws are no longer as antiquated as many other western states. Try buying liquor in most of the mid cities of DFW.

Agree! I have brought the issue up on previous threads about getting more quality jobs and luring HQ to our city, however, my perception and response from others were not what I had expected? I moved to Dallas because I was struggling living in OKC making $10.00 hour with a college education. Until OKC addresses this issue, then the city will continue to have a brain drain and the young adults will move to a more vibrant area where they are able to flourish. On another note, OKC is making strides and I hope for the sake of it's residents that MAPS 3 passes and OKC continues the momentum.

And that is the hidden problem, progressiveboy. Many companies will open offices in a city where there is a large percentage of people with college degrees. One one hand, as long as people keep moving to Dallas, companies will think twice about OKC as the percentage of people with degrees hover at 26 percent.

On the other hand, if people DIDN'T move Dallas, the percentage of degrees would be higher, but the grads would be left waiting longer for work. Either way, OKC gets the shaft, with or without vasolene.

What a lot of people - even on this board - don't realize is that Oklahoma City for years was mostly a city built around government and manufacturing. Only recently has our city's leadership begun to lean toward Oklahoma City being a white collar corporate community.

But you guys have to believe in your community. As long as we stay buried in Dallas' bosoms, we will continue to struggle moving forward. It is what it is. Oklahoma City right now needs entreprenuers. If we can grow solid, financially sound firms in OKC we can grow as a city. I am sick and tired of people placing all of their hopes and dreams on corporate relocations to Oklahoma. Forget them. We need Oklahoma pioneers. Only then can many Dallasites reconsider OKC.

In the meantime, we need to continue to build OKC into a sparkling jewel on the edge of the American prairie. And please, leave liberal and conservative politics out of this. Both political views in my mind have become the bastard stepchildren of intellectuality and progress, and are nothing more than a distraction. Let's concentraten on building a city.

A strong pattern is for new grads to leave because the jobs and money are elsewhere. Some don't come back and surely that is a loss for the state. But aside from some, many tend to come back after they get that out of their system and are interested in a town where they can live, raise a family and have a good lifestyle where they are building rather than simply entertaining themselves. The adventuresome ones take vacations and travel for their fixes. Mass transit is very appealing for young professionals. Not so much when you are carting babies and kids to their activities and the doctor's office. And dinner out and partying is a lot of fun when it is just you and a young significant other. When you reach a point where you are saving for a house or have an elderly parent or need to pay private school tuition, etc., your priorities really do change. At that point, you enjoy occasional nights out but it isn't a daily thing, or even a weekly thing. And you don't miss it, a bit.

jc4455 - email your friends again and ask how many planning to leave the state because of 3.5 beer.

If getting a higher alcohol content is your beer is your biggest ambition in life then MAPS III might not be for you. I was once a 20-something living in Norman and after graduating from OU I had to leave the state to find a job. I was more concerned about finding a job with an income I could raise a family on than I was with how much beer I had to drink to get drunk – but that’s just me.

Some folks around here probably think the NBA/Thunder is boring as well.

I don't really take comments like the ones some NBA players allegedly said negatively, I see them as an opportunity to improve the city and make it appealing to a wider range of folks.

I can only speak for myself, but I understand where they are coming from with the 'boring' comments. There have been threads on this in the past... but something that I find disturbing about OKC is how much of our recreational activities revolve around eating, or drinking. It is great that we now have a few unique things here like the Land Run Monument and the OKC Art Museum that are places to go and wander around, but there really are not that many 'attraction' type places here. When I think of most major cities they all have their unique schtick. Seattle has its fish market on Pike Street and the underground city, San Fran has Fisherman's Wharf among other things, Chicago has so many places to just wander around and see from department stores to little locally owned shops to various museums... Los Angeles has the Hollywood strip, Beverly Hills, and so many more places, and so on. What is it that makes Oklahoma unique, and how can we make those things fun and interesting?

More 'fun' things other than just eating need to be brought into this town. The NBA is great, other sports activities are good, and so on. I often hear folks talk about Dave and Busters, and I think what they are really saying is that they would like to see more fun activities here in the city not necessarily that place in general. Miniature golf or whatever.... I mean it seems so odd that there are so few pool, shuffleboard, etc. type places around town, and the ones we have are usually in smoke-infested seedy atmospheres. Which leads to another issue... we just need more upscale options here. Upscale fun, upscale dining, upscale everything. I don't necessarily mean $100 a plate diners... just places that look nice and aren't run-down and cheap looking. It would be even better if we actually had top-notch cuisine in the city. We have places like that, but they are few and far between. Places that stay open past 9 p.m. would be good too. As I've mentioned in previous threads, I have taken friends and out-of-staters to Bricktown, supposedly our downtown entertainment district, on a Tuesday or Wednesday night before at 9 p.m., a full two hours before many of the restaurant's posted closing times, to find them already shut down. If it isn't a Friday or Saturday night places like Bricktown are just too inconsistent and local business owners aren't helping the situation by being flaky with their hours. I know, it's a catch-22, but how about just keeping a small skeleton crew around and actually meeting your posted hours.

But what I think is the most significant problem for young professionals in this city is that this city is, from top to bottom from ground up, built around older people and families. There is no single district where young folks are living, where they can be in close proximity to each other (which often leads to meeting new friends, pitching new business ideas, and on and on). Come on, how about JUST ONE district like that. The closest thing to that is Norman, but unfortunately you end up with a bunch of broke, whiny slightly retarded sorority and fraternity folks surrounding you instead of real young adults who know how to make money. There's no district here where you can walk out of your condo and, on foot, walk to a really cool place to shop, or eat, and so on. We are starting to see some of that with Bricktown, but we're not really there yet and unfortunately Bricktown continues marketing to the older families demographic with its price points and with the types of condo configurations and amenities that are being offered by builders down there. Bricktown is a great place to go if you're wanting some Mexican food, beer, or steak, but creative it is not. Once there are more ethnic places, eclectic little locally owned shops selling whatever, more activities, more museums, more public spaces and art, more things going on at all times of day and night and not just from 6 p.mm. to midnight on Friday and Saturday, more interesting people living near one another to get to know and talk to, then we will be a city that has something for the so called 'creative class.'

This isn't one of my more eloquently written posts, it is kind of stream of consciousness, but hopefully it gives some examples of some things that we are lacking.

It wont be boring for Eton Thomas!

Dave Zirin: Eton Thomas Rises to the Challenge (http://www.counterpunch.org/zirin09172005.html)

Allow to me to take a different tack...

I have not lived in OKC for a long time, but I wonder if OKC has developed a social culture for young people in their 20s and 30s to meet outside of a bar or a restaurant. Perhaps they have, but if not, perhaps my experience in St. Louis is illusrative of a cosmopolitan city.

In St. Louis, every cultural and charitable organization has a "Young Friends" group specifically for people in their 20s and 30s. YF of the Zoo, YF of the Art Museum, YF of Jazz St. Louis, YF of COCA (Center of Contemporary Arts)and on and on. There are - no exaggeration - 30 or 40 such groups. These groups all have regular inexpensive parties, maybe $10 or $20 or $30 specifically designed for networking and community building. I am not exaggerating when I say that on any given Wednesday, Thursday, Friday or Saturday night in the Spring, Summer and Fall, something social is going on. Sure there is eating and drinking, of course, but you would not believe the social, and importantly, business connections that are made at these parties. There is a whole huge cadre of young, socially aware, upwardly mobile people that rotate through all these events. To the point that, if you want to develop friendships and connections in St. Louis, you can go out and know that you will find friends on any given night.

Sure, I go to plenty of bars, concerts, plays, ethnic restaurants, but I always also have this option. Almost any night someone will call me and say "Are you going to ZooTini, (or COCAcabana or Party In the Park in Clayton...)"

There is even a "Young Friends Collaborative" made up of board members of all these groups, that have their own parties.

In addition, every neighborhood in St. Louis has music festivals or arts festivals or bar crawls all the way through the warmer months. And there are a thousand other young-oriented networking groups like Fuel, River City Professionals, St. Louis Ambassadors.

My point is, much like a small-town atmosphere in a big city, these types of events serve to bind young people to their community and make them feel really involved. You want to go to these parties and if you are tired and stay home, you feel like you missed something because the next day, the e-mails and texts will be flying about what a good time it was. Perhaps most importantly, these groups are also training the new generation of civic philanthropic leadership.

Again, I don't know if OKC has this kind of culture, but if it doesn't, it is missing out.

guarantee it was nick collison. we all know how much he hates oklahoma city and wishes he was back in seattle.

To me, it only makes perfect sense when folks from the major cities of the US find Oklahoma City a little boring. News flash.....

But hey....we do have a pro basketball team now. Maybe the NBA guys can take in a game and......oh, wait....nevermind.

Re run down places in OKC: My kids in NYC are constantly taking me to the diviest restaurants you can imagine. No one thinks twice about it - in fact, the city takes pride in having little holes in the wall. They are run down and seedy by OKC standards but still tons of fun. And NYC has concerts and museums and restaurants and shopping but if you want to do something more active than that, of course you have to go elsewhere. But that is just the Big Apple. Every City has a personality.

guarantee it was nick collison. we all know how much he hates oklahoma city and wishes he was back in seattle.

Do you have any links or quotes of what he actually said that specifically bad mouthed OKC? The only thing I saw was the article that said it was hot here. It was, he didn't exaggerate or say anything bad about OKC. Would think the same if he had said about Vegas ("it's hot and dry here") I listened to the recording of the local radio station where he called in and as much as the host tried to twist what he said...

Yes, he raves about Seattle (that is where he chooses to live in the off season) and I don't have any problem with that. It would be nice if he had something specific positive to say about OKC but I don't see an absence of that as being a slam either. How many of the Thunder roster have made OKC their year-around home? Anyone know?

Don't have the article any more but know that Durant has said some of the same things about OKC (being laid back etc) but he sees it as a GOOD thing and makes it a point of telling his team mates. Maybe someone else can post that.

Look OKC is not the most exciting City, but, with continued investment by the citizens in the city (MAPs 3), OKC will improve by leaps and bounds. As an African American Sooner, I can understand why SOME players would find OKC boring, because it is! relative to larger more diverse and vibrant places.

I'm thinking truck in some hookers and blow.

trucks, hookers, blow and dives, all in one thread.
Almost sounds like yer already backs home hun.

trucks, hookers, blow and dives, all in one thread.
Almost sounds like yer already backs home hun.

I am so close I am covered with bruises from packing the first moving van!

These guys are multimillionaires. What's stopping them from putting their money where their mouths are and opening various venues to bring OKC up to their expectations?

These guys are multimillionaires. What's stopping them from putting their money where their mouths are and opening various venues to bring OKC up to their expectations?

Good question!

I don't really take comments like the ones some NBA players allegedly said negatively, I see them as an opportunity to improve the city and make it appealing to a wider range of folks.

I can only speak for myself, but I understand where they are coming from with the 'boring' comments. There have been threads on this in the past... but something that I find disturbing about OKC is how much of our recreational activities revolve around eating, or drinking. It is great that we now have a few unique things here like the Land Run Monument and the OKC Art Museum that are places to go and wander around, but there really are not that many 'attraction' type places here. When I think of most major cities they all have their unique schtick. Seattle has its fish market on Pike Street and the underground city, San Fran has Fisherman's Wharf among other things, Chicago has so many places to just wander around and see from department stores to little locally owned shops to various museums... Los Angeles has the Hollywood strip, Beverly Hills, and so many more places, and so on. What is it that makes Oklahoma unique, and how can we make those things fun and interesting?

More 'fun' things other than just eating need to be brought into this town. The NBA is great, other sports activities are good, and so on. I often hear folks talk about Dave and Busters, and I think what they are really saying is that they would like to see more fun activities here in the city not necessarily that place in general. Miniature golf or whatever.... I mean it seems so odd that there are so few pool, shuffleboard, etc. type places around town, and the ones we have are usually in smoke-infested seedy atmospheres. Which leads to another issue... we just need more upscale options here. Upscale fun, upscale dining, upscale everything. I don't necessarily mean $100 a plate diners... just places that look nice and aren't run-down and cheap looking. It would be even better if we actually had top-notch cuisine in the city. We have places like that, but they are few and far between. Places that stay open past 9 p.m. would be good too. As I've mentioned in previous threads, I have taken friends and out-of-staters to Bricktown, supposedly our downtown entertainment district, on a Tuesday or Wednesday night before at 9 p.m., a full two hours before many of the restaurant's posted closing times, to find them already shut down. If it isn't a Friday or Saturday night places like Bricktown are just too inconsistent and local business owners aren't helping the situation by being flaky with their hours. I know, it's a catch-22, but how about just keeping a small skeleton crew around and actually meeting your posted hours.

But what I think is the most significant problem for young professionals in this city is that this city is, from top to bottom from ground up, built around older people and families. There is no single district where young folks are living, where they can be in close proximity to each other (which often leads to meeting new friends, pitching new business ideas, and on and on). Come on, how about JUST ONE district like that. The closest thing to that is Norman, but unfortunately you end up with a bunch of broke, whiny slightly retarded sorority and fraternity folks surrounding you instead of real young adults who know how to make money. There's no district here where you can walk out of your condo and, on foot, walk to a really cool place to shop, or eat, and so on. We are starting to see some of that with Bricktown, but we're not really there yet and unfortunately Bricktown continues marketing to the older families demographic with its price points and with the types of condo configurations and amenities that are being offered by builders down there. Bricktown is a great place to go if you're wanting some Mexican food, beer, or steak, but creative it is not. Once there are more ethnic places, eclectic little locally owned shops selling whatever, more activities, more museums, more public spaces and art, more things going on at all times of day and night and not just from 6 p.mm. to midnight on Friday and Saturday, more interesting people living near one another to get to know and talk to, then we will be a city that has something for the so called 'creative class.'

This isn't one of my more eloquently written posts, it is kind of stream of consciousness, but hopefully it gives some examples of some things that we are lacking.

Can you provide an example or a name of a "singles" type district? I would like to take a look.

As far as restaurant owners in Bricktown... that is becoming a problem. The Bricktown Association needs to be nailed with complaints, or even the owners themselves. I'm with Patrick... Bricktown as reached a stalemate and a lot of that is lack of vision on behalf of newer owners.

hahaha. okclee - I agree. I am finding them to be pretty boring people and making pretty boring scores.

Boring people will always be bored. Apparently we don't know who they are so what's stopping them from going where they want and doing what they want?

I still go to the games and I know all of them aren't complaining. But it only takes one to make them all sound dumb.

Allow to me to take a different tack...

I have not lived in OKC for a long time, but I wonder if OKC has developed a social culture for young people in their 20s and 30s to meet outside of a bar or a restaurant. Perhaps they have, but if not, perhaps my experience in St. Louis is illusrative of a cosmopolitan city.

In St. Louis, every cultural and charitable organization has a "Young Friends" group specifically for people in their 20s and 30s. YF of the Zoo, YF of the Art Museum, YF of Jazz St. Louis, YF of COCA (Center of Contemporary Arts)and on and on. There are - no exaggeration - 30 or 40 such groups. These groups all have regular inexpensive parties, maybe $10 or $20 or $30 specifically designed for networking and community building. I am not exaggerating when I say that on any given Wednesday, Thursday, Friday or Saturday night in the Spring, Summer and Fall, something social is going on. Sure there is eating and drinking, of course, but you would not believe the social, and importantly, business connections that are made at these parties. There is a whole huge cadre of young, socially aware, upwardly mobile people that rotate through all these events. To the point that, if you want to develop friendships and connections in St. Louis, you can go out and know that you will find friends on any given night.

Sure, I go to plenty of bars, concerts, plays, ethnic restaurants, but I always also have this option. Almost any night someone will call me and say "Are you going to ZooTini, (or COCAcabana or Party In the Park in Clayton...)"

There is even a "Young Friends Collaborative" made up of board members of all these groups, that have their own parties.

In addition, every neighborhood in St. Louis has music festivals or arts festivals or bar crawls all the way through the warmer months. And there are a thousand other young-oriented networking groups like Fuel, River City Professionals, St. Louis Ambassadors.

My point is, much like a small-town atmosphere in a big city, these types of events serve to bind young people to their community and make them feel really involved. You want to go to these parties and if you are tired and stay home, you feel like you missed something because the next day, the e-mails and texts will be flying about what a good time it was. Perhaps most importantly, these groups are also training the new generation of civic philanthropic leadership.

Again, I don't know if OKC has this kind of culture, but if it doesn't, it is missing out.

Yes, we have quite a few actually. They technical term for them are "Young Professionals", or simply "YP" groups. I was actually the first Executive Director for our first YP group, Alliance of Emerging Professionals (AEP), it's a fraction/shell of what it used to be, now that the Chamber of Commerce took it over. There are also other YP groups now, suburbs like Edmond and such have their own as well. There are also the "friends" groups as you mentioned, and more recently, PlayDate OKC (I'm married so have no use to go), but I know it's a raving success and one of the top Play Date type places in the country, it's brand new here and already over 1000 are attending the monthly event, even NBA players such as Durant, Green and a couple others.

playdateokc.com - Oklahoma City (http://www.playdateokc.com/)

I'm confident should MAPS 3 pass, it will solve a lot of the "wants" category. The mass transit alone will go a long ways in connectivity and walkability of tieing our hip districts together, and bring together the cohesion we seek. OKC still needs upscale shopping (including a WF type grocer) ANYWHERE, even if it's not downtown. More entertainment options as well that aren't clubs, such as Dave & Busters, more live music venues, etc.

Part of the problem, I think, is that a lot of these single guys live in Edmond, in residential developments designed for families. Obviously, they think they can't live in Deep Deuce, but they'd have a lot more fun if they did. I talked to a friend who knows a bunch of them last night, and she said the married ones love it here, and she suspects it's the single guys who might be grumbling. She also said it would be nice if we had a few more jazz clubs that cater to people with higher end incomes. And, I suspect they'd like more hip shopping, and more high end shopping. It's annoying, because we've supported stores like Chanel and Balliet's for years and years, probably because our dsiposable income is about the same as any other place, but retailers can't look past average income data.

The thing is, a lot of us love the state the way it is. To want to improve it is one thing. To want to fundamentally change it into something else is something entirely different. Part of the problem is that certain people are very quick to label it, call it (and its people) ugly names, and just essentially trash it. Results in many people getting defensive.

And part of the problem is that many of us love it BECAUSE it isn't like so many other places. We have been there, done that, and think OKC is just better, for us. There isn't any other place quite like it. Does that make us rednecks, backwards, yokels or what have you? Some seem to think so. But plenty of us have lived other places and have something to compare it to and still reach that conclusion. We didn't read about other places in books or go on vacation somewhere and see how the tourists get around. Trashing your home is just classless.

Who's trashing it? Look, from what I've read here from people who have lived elsewhere is that they like OKC because it is cheap and "quiet." Well, if we are to be a city, there will be some parts of it that are bustling. If you don't like that, move to Deer Creek.

Allowing the city to become a more urban, grown-up version of itself will ensure it's still here and functioning in fifty years, because that is what draws talent employers seek.

I suppose someday we may look back and lament the loss of weedy parking lots, strip malls, neglected streets and sidewalks and endless highways going nowhere, no pedestrian activity, obesity and miles of fast-food restaurants. But I'm willing to take my chances.