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Doug Loudenback
10-26-2009, 02:11 PM
I've started a collection of all Okc media reports concerning MAPS 3, largely because the Oklahoman has yet to begun doing any serious MAPS 3 reporting. Aside from an occasional observation, it attempts to put everything in a single place, pro, con or neutral articles.

I'm still backtracking to include September, but October is pretty complete. It includes audio MP3 files of the Chamber's luncheon on 10/21. I'll add summaries of the presentations later.

Midtowner
10-26-2009, 02:14 PM
Doug, this city is lucky to have you as its unofficial chronicler... our modern-day Tacitus.

SoonerDave
10-26-2009, 02:25 PM
Doug, this is the kind of activity from which a newspaper could be born.

The Oklahoman's black helicopters will be visting you shortly :smile:

Doug Loudenback
10-26-2009, 03:28 PM
Doug, this city is lucky to have you as its unofficial chronicler... our modern-day Tacitus.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/misc/tacitusdawg.jpg

Nose doesn't work.

Midtowner
10-26-2009, 03:43 PM
The resemblance is uncanny.

Luke
10-26-2009, 05:48 PM
That was awesome.

Doug Loudenback
10-29-2009, 06:11 PM
The 2nd Breaking Through luncheon was held today at the Petroleum Club, the principal speakers being Mary Margaret Jones of Hargreaves Associates and Mayor Cornett. A streaming video is available at Greater Oklahoma City Chamber - YES for MAPS - Breaking Through 10/29 (http://www.okcchamber.com/page.asp?atomid=1958) and I'll be adding stuff about the event shortly. However, you might want to see the video now, at the just linked location.

betts
10-30-2009, 12:56 AM
Here's Steve's article about the proposed park, based on information given at the meeting:

NewsOK (http://www.newsok.com/designer-reveals-plans-for-maps-3-funded-park/article/3413127?custom_click=headlines_widget)

I'm pretty excited about the dog park concept. I was hoping we'd get one near downtown.

Larry OKC
10-30-2009, 03:51 AM
be EXTREMELY patient with the video...the 1st 30 minutes is watching people eat...presentation begins at about the 31 min mark. The clip is over an hour long.

Something she stressed at the beginning of her presentation, this is STILL conceptual, none of the things are necessarily going to be as shown (if they end up being there at all). This goes back to the info Doug posted about it. It is just to give people an idea of what MIGHT be. They again implied that there would be lots of public input (where have we heard that before) AFTER the vote.


The new info/confirmation of what we had guessed from the renderings:

The underground parking has been eliminated as being to costly. They will look at parking at a later date. Neither seemed concerned. Said there was plenty of street parking surrounding the park.

Grand lawn will accommodate 15,000 (could have sworn it was supposed to be 50,000 but can't locate the 50,000 info now...think it was in the C2S report...so may have been mistaken)

Economic impact. In cities where they have done similar projects, Residential Values (surrounding the Park, which we don't currently have?) rose 6 to 10 times. Private development/investment increased 4 to 10 times.


Betts: I completely missed the dog park and the amphitheater(s). Guess I'll have to go back and rewatch it again.

metro
10-30-2009, 07:52 AM
Here's Steve's article about the proposed park, based on information given at the meeting:

NewsOK (http://www.newsok.com/designer-reveals-plans-for-maps-3-funded-park/article/3413127?custom_click=headlines_widget)

I'm pretty excited about the dog park concept. I was hoping we'd get one near downtown.

Remember, Myriad Gardens is also going to have a fenced in dog park as well, and obviously MUCH sooner than C2S park gets off the ground.

Doug Loudenback
10-30-2009, 08:24 PM
The ripped sound files from yesterday's Breaking Through conference are now up and in Doug Dawgz Blog: All The News About MAPS 3 (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2009/10/all-news-about-maps-3.html). I've not yet written summaries and the slide show portions are not done. But it should now be easy enough to hear what the speakers had to say. Like in the 1st Breaking Through luncheon, they are broken into separate parts, speaker by speaker, so you can select what you want to listen to.

Also up is Steve's October 30 article covering the event. Just by itself, the fact that he was authorized to attend and report on the event is every bit a "breaking through," as well.

Hopefully, the article represents the 1st of many by front-line Oklahoman journalists on MAPS 3.

I've characterized the development as follows:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/dailyplanet.jpg

Doug Loudenback
11-03-2009, 01:51 AM
A pair of articles appear in today's (11/3/2009) press ... see Doug Dawgz Blog: All The News About MAPS 3 (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2009/10/all-news-about-maps-3.html#novembernews) ...

Journal Record (http://www.journalrecord.com/article.cfm?recid=104012) by Brian Brus, "Coalition opposes MAPS 3."

The article notes that the committee generally favors MAPS 3 but that its members would oppose passage of MAPS 3 unless arrangements can be worked out to hire more Oklahoma City police and firefighters. The political committee wants the vote on MAPS 3 postponed so that its concerns can be addressed. The article reads:


OKLAHOMA CITY – The upcoming MAPS 3 tax issue election has drawn formal opposition with the filing of a political committee, Not This MAPS Coalition, with the Oklahoma City clerk’s office.

The group is opposing the $777 million, seven-year, penny sales tax issue mainly because of what the package of capital improvement projects doesn’t have: more emergency response personnel, said Phil Sipe, president-elect of the International Association of Firefighters Local 157 and chairman of the coalition. Not This Maps Coalition otherwise supports MAPS 3.

But if the issue is passed by voters Dec. 8, he said, the likelihood of securing additional funding to hire firefighters and police officers any time in the next several years severely decreases. So the group is trying to convince city leaders to postpone the question to allow for more consideration.

“We still hold out hope that we can come to some kind of last-minute resolution of the staffing issues that we have,” Sipe said. “So we’re not entirely resigned about running a campaign against it. We’re actually trying to work out a resolution so that they address staffing needs.”

The first MAPS, or Metropolitan Area Projects, was passed in 1993 and included projects such as construction of the Bricktown Ballpark, renovation of the Cox Business Services Convention Center and development of the Oklahoma River. The second issue in 2001, MAPS for Kids, focused on the Oklahoma City Public Schools District with new buildings and technology upgrades. ¶ If passed, MAPS 3 will provide for the creation of a 70-acre park downtown, a fixed-rail streetcar system and new convention center downtown, trails and sidewalks throughout the city, state fairgrounds improvements, wellness aquatic centers for senior citizens, and upgrades to facilities at the Oklahoma River at the heart of the metro area.

The anti-MAPS 3 group is countered by only one other formal filing with the clerk’s office: the Yes For MAPS Coalition, headed by Mayor Mick Cornett as chairman and former Mayors Kirk Humphreys and Ron Norick as co-treasurers. The Greater Oklahoma City Chamber is providing the main support for MAPS 3.

Keith Gaddie, a professor in the political science department at the University of Oklahoma, had predicted in an earlier interview with The Journal Record that a union-based opposition would be the biggest threat to MAPS 3. ¶ “People know cops, and people know firefighters. They trust them,” Gaddie said. “And even though unions are weak in Oklahoma, there are more union workers in Oklahoma City than in any other part of the state. So there’s potentially a lot of support there.”

The MAPS 3 opposition group maintains that the city doesn’t have enough police officers and firefighters, and personnel resources would be further stretched. The group’s vice chairman is Gil Hensley, president of the Fraternal Order of Police Lodge 123, who spoke out with Sipe against MAPS 3 at City Hall when the issue was first announced. ¶ Sipe said Not This MAPS Coalition wants the ballot changed to include emergency services funding. But Oklahoma County Election Board Secretary Doug Sanderson said that once the municipal government submitted its resolution, the text of the question was set. The change deadline was Oct. 8.

It is, however, possible to call off the election, Sanderson said. City officials could cancel the issue at any time up to the scheduled election date, although the investment in ballots and personnel would still have to be paid.

Sipe said his group is not trying to leverage MAPS 3 opposition for emergency workers’ pay increases. The firefighters union earlier this year said it was willing to give up raises this year if the city would hire more people or otherwise fill scheduling holes. Ultimately, arbitrators sided with the union and firefighters got their pay increased. ¶ “It’s never been about the money,” he said.
Meanwhile, in the Oklahoman, in its News Briefs column (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-briefs/article/3414176), a speech by the mayor is announced:


The Northwest Chamber is hosting a luncheon with Oklahoma City Mayor Mick Cornett on Wednesday to discuss the MAPS 3 proposal up for a Dec. 8 vote from 11:30 a.m. to 1 p.m. at Incredible Pizza in Warr Acres, 5833 NW Expressway. Cost is $10 for members and $15 for non-members. Call 789-1256 or email larissa@thenorthwestchamber.com
All the news that's fit to print.

Larry OKC
11-03-2009, 03:23 AM
Doug, the Daily Planet bit had me ROFLMAO...Thanks!

"...Oklahoma County Election Board Secretary Doug Sanderson said that once the municipal government submitted its resolution, the text of the question was set. The change deadline was Oct. 8.

It is, however, possible to call off the election, Sanderson said. City officials could cancel the issue at any time up to the scheduled election date..."

Good info, I was under the impression that once the Ballot/Ordinance and election date was set, that there was no turning back from that point. The Change date has passed but they could still cancel (postpone) the election, fix the Ballot and Ordinance language to at least tie into the non-binding Intent resolution...then reset the election date.

Good to know they are dropping the price some for these events...

benman
11-03-2009, 07:22 AM
Doug (or anyone else).. Is it pretty much set in stone that there will be an amphitheatre?
This is the first I have heard of it and Im really excited. A bunch of people will argue that we have the Zoo (which does have a lot of character) but it will be great to get a large new venue in the downtown area. The smaller venue amphitheatre is also an awesome idea, as there are tons of great bands that can only fill 1000 to 2000 people. I think these would be huge milestones in drawing some real quality live music to OKC (big and small)

Doug Loudenback
11-03-2009, 07:38 AM
Based upon the comments made by Mary Margaret Jones at the Chamber's 10/29 luncheon, I take it as a given than nothing about the park is set in stone. I haven't prepared a summary yet, but listen to about the 1st 2 (of 30) minutes and she makes that pretty clear. However, the "great lawn" aspect of the general plan would seem to accommodate that type of thing.

betts
11-03-2009, 10:59 AM
Doug (or anyone else).. Is it pretty much set in stone that there will be an amphitheatre?
This is the first I have heard of it and Im really excited. A bunch of people will argue that we have the Zoo (which does have a lot of character) but it will be great to get a large new venue in the downtown area. The smaller venue amphitheatre is also an awesome idea, as there are tons of great bands that can only fill 1000 to 2000 people. I think these would be huge milestones in drawing some real quality live music to OKC (big and small)

Agreed. This is another amenity that will help draw crowds downtown and help create the sense that the downtown park is for everyone.

kevinpate
11-03-2009, 01:21 PM
Agreed. This is another amenity that will help draw crowds downtown and help create the sense that the downtown park is for everyone.

Unless it ends up with blah fencing, turnstiles, fugly ticketbooths & beerstands, quiet hours that kick in too early due to nearby residential, hmmm, that sounds a wee familar come to think on it.

betts
11-03-2009, 01:40 PM
I don't know about the fencing and ticketbooths, but I do think if you live in an urban environment, you've eschewed the option to ask for early quiet hours.

Patrick
11-03-2009, 01:49 PM
Attention Fire and Police Unions:
A "no" vote on MAPS 3 by you and your membership will equal a "no" vote by me on any future requests from you all for more tax funding and a "no" by me for any of your ancillary soliciting for support for your various assistance funds.

:congrats:

Doug Loudenback
11-04-2009, 03:04 PM
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/gazette_thumb1.jpg

The latest "Breaking News" and an additional primary new article on MAPS 3 was published today, this one by the Oklahoma Gazette and my "All the News" article (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2009/10/all-news-about-maps-3.html#breakingnews) has been updated accordingly. Here's a graphic showing the summary:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/gazettenews_november4.jpg

Links in the above graphic won't work here, it's just a picture. Links which will work appear below:


Article at the Gazette's website: Click here (http://www.okgazette.com/p/12776/a/4949/Default.aspx?ReturnUrl=LwBkAGUAZgBhAHUAbAB0AC4AYQB zAHAAeAAslashAHAAPQAxADIANwAyADkA)
More printable version of the article: Click here (http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/gazette_2009_11_04.jpg)
Gazette's July 22 article: Click here (http://www.okgazette.com/p/12776/a/4347/Default.aspx?ReturnUrl=LwBEAGUAZgBhAHUAbAB0AC4AYQB zAHAAeAAslashAHAAPQAxADIANwAyADkA)
ACOG Study: Click here (http://www.acogok.org/programs_and_services/transportation_and_data_services/fixedguideway.asp)
Core To Shore article discussing the ACOG study: Click here (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2009/08/core-to-shore-resources.html#rail)
MTP website: Click here (http://www.mtpokc.com/)
Article describing David Holt: Click here (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2009/09/maps-iii-actual-proposal.html#davidholt)

Doug Loudenback
11-08-2009, 10:45 PM
The latest addition to the Doug Dawgz Blog: All The News About MAPS 3 (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2009/10/all-news-about-maps-3.html) compendium relates to the flurry of articles (6) in today's 11/8/2009 Sunday Oklahoman. The individual pieces appear below ... the graphics contain no links ... they are just pictures ... but usable links follow the graphic images.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/oklahoman_11_8_0.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/oklahoman_11_8_1.jpg



Link to the above Oklahoman article: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/oklahoman_2009_11_08_1.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/oklahoman_11_8_2.jpg



Link to the above Oklahoman article: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/oklahoman_2009_11_08_1.jpg
Website of those supporting MAPS 3: www.yesformaps.com (http://www.yesformaps.com/)
Website of those opposing MAPS 3: www.nomaps3.com (http://nomaps3.com/)

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/oklahoman_11_8_3.jpg



Link to above Oklahoman article: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/oklahoman_2009_11_08_3.jpg
City's MAPS 3 summary website: City of Oklahoma City | Public Information & Marketing (http://www.okc.gov/maps3/summary.html)
Chamber's Yes For Maps website: Keep OKC Moving - Vote Yes for MAPS on December 8! (http://www.yesformaps.com/)

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/oklahoman_11_8_4.jpg



Link to above Oklahoman article: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/oklahoman_2009_11_08_3.jpg
Oklahoma Constitution: OSCN Found Document:Subjects and titles - Revival or amendment by reference - Extent of invalidity (http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=84905)
Fent v. State: OSCN Found Document:FENT v. STATE ex rel. OKLAHOMA CAPITOL IMPROVEMENT AUTHORITY (http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/deliverdocument.asp?id=454334&hits=)

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/oklahoman_11_8_5.jpg



Link to above Oklahoman article: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/oklahoman_2009_11_08_3.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/oklahoman_11_8_6.jpg



Link to above Oklahoman article: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/oklahoman_2009_11_08_3.jpg

It presently appears that the Oklahoman's journalistic coverage of MAPS 3 will continue to be seriously flawed and will present nothing but Kool-Aid, only presenting what is copacetic with the viewpoints of the Oklahoman's owners and chief executives, and trashing the time-and-history honored role of a free press and independent journalism.

That fact may well be depressing for serious journalists employed by the Oklahoman who have most assuredly been trained and steeped in the idealistic role they serve in our common US and Oklahoma history. The fact is also a travesty for you and me since the primary news source in our community for what, more than 100 years, presently exposes itself as not being willing to present objective news and analysis, but only Kool-Aid articles about MAPS 3 which are in lock-step with MAPS 3 proponents. By taking that approach, and by dishonoring even its own employees some of whom have received their training at facilities named after the Gaylord family at the University of Oklahoma, the Oklahoman is dishonoring its own valued place and heritage within our city.

I don't at all mean to say that E.K. Gaylord was a prince or that his son was, either. I do mean to say that they were newspapermen and that, notwithstanding their own editorial positions and as strongly stated as they could sometimes be, they did not impress a Gestapo boot on their paper's news reporting personnel, regardless of their own editorial opinion. The Gaylords knew that the Oklahoman was, when all was said and done, a newspaper.

Times have changed and this is a dark time for the Oklahoman being a newspaper which even cares about thorough, objective, reporting, and that's very sad. The way that the Oklahoman is conducting itself also presents a solid case for some other news source taking its place in our city.

We deserve better. Oklahoman reporters deserve better. And, so does the Oklahoman, if it cares a twit about its 100+year heritage.

blangtang
11-09-2009, 12:16 AM
here's to holding out hope that the tulsa world covers the Maps proposal better than the local fishwrap

kevinpate
11-09-2009, 07:18 AM
I know it was not intentional on your part Doug, but if I were firmly in opposition to MAPs3, I'd absotively, posilutely have to go acquire or make me a KOOL-Aid Costume and wear it to every MAPs3 related gathering I could get to, maybe even have a small army of KOOL-AID costumed folks to march on city hall, each with a Please Don't Drink sticker hanging off the handle.

LMAO at the thought of 1,000 Kool-Aid costumes in various colors marching on city hall.

You're spot on, but I truly appreciate the merriment suddenly generated by your frustration, and mine, at the paper being a mouthpiece and not being a paper.

Doug Loudenback
11-09-2009, 07:30 AM
Now, that would be a hoot ... maybe they could be joined by the Flaming Lips' 1,000 skeleton guys & gals ...

My frustration with the Oklahoman isn't sudden, even if the merriment that you observe may be. I'd call it sarcasm, though, since it doesn't make me feel merry at all.

ON EDIT: I provided incorrect links, above, for the last three 11/8 Oklahoman articles. The correct link for Article 4, Article 5, and Article 6 is http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/oklahoman_2009_11_08_2.jpg, they all appearing on the same page.

andy157
11-09-2009, 10:19 PM
I have read the "Ballot won't detail individual projects" article a dozen times. I have read it numurious times in hopes of reaching a different conclusion. However, I can't. I still come away with the same underlying message. Which is.

If it is the City's intent, that one single tax be used to fund multiple purposes, and the ballot actually states that intent by listing each of those multiple purposes in a "all or nothing" format, as it did in MAPS 1 and 2, that is an illegal act.

However, it is legal to use one single tax, to fund multiple purposes, in a "all or nothing" format as long as the ballot does not actually list those multiple purposes. So, the City can make an illegal act become a legal act, by simply omitting their actual intent from the wording on the ballot.

City attorney Kenny Jordan admitted the City had other options. The ballot could have listed each individual project as long as a separate vote was required for each project.

However, the Mayor and the City Council decided against the legal multiple purpose, separate vote format since City voters were not accustomed to that type of system. As luck, and an ommission of intent loophole would have it, so as not to confuse stupid City voters with a complicated ballot which they are not accustomed to, the City was able to use the illegal "all or nothing" system format. Thanks Mayor.

Larry OKC
11-09-2009, 11:22 PM
...However, the Mayor and the City Council decided against the legal multiple purpose, separate vote format since City voters were not accustomed to that type of system. As luck, and an ommission of intent loophole would have it, so as not to confuse stupid City voters with a complicated ballot which they are not accustomed to, the City was able to use the illegal "all or nothing" system format. Thanks Mayor.

For MAPS votes, that is certainly the case (all-or-nothing). But for anyone to suggest (the Mayor/Council) that voters are unfamiliar with separate propositions is absurd (besides being the legal way to do it). Voters were able to deal with it on the 2007 General Obligation bond issue where EVERY ONE of the 14(?) separate propositions passed. Voters again passed EVERY ONE of the separate propositions in the 2007 School bond issue. State voters weren't confused/unfamiliar to the multiple State Questions we had on the ballot a few years ago (think most if not all of those passed too). But I guess voters were confused when the multi-proposal Tinker bond issue came along, as some passed but some failed.

Doug Loudenback
11-10-2009, 06:17 AM
Breakthrough between Firefighters & the City? Journal Record reporter Brian Brus' November 10 article makes it sound possible, and, should that occur, that the union may do an about face on MAPS 3. The article may be temporarily read here at the Journal Record website (http://www.journalrecord.com/article.cfm?recid=104264) but the Journal Record requires subscription to read, after a few days.

However, the article is available in Doug Dawgz Blog: All The News About MAPS 3 (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2009/10/all-news-about-maps-3.html) and is set out below, in graphic form.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/journalrecord_2009_11_10.jpg

Doug Loudenback
11-11-2009, 09:09 AM
In probably not its best soul-searching article in its generally excellent series of MAPS 3 articles, the Oklahoma Gazette published its latest (11/11) article on MAPS 3. The article is largely a restatement of old news, but it's nicely put together.

A graphic form of what's contained at Doug Dawgz Blog: All The News About MAPS 3 (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2009/10/all-news-about-maps-3.html) is set out below:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/gazette_11_11_blogarticle.jpg

For the on-line Gazette link, click here (http://www.okgazette.com/p/12776/a/4991/Default.aspx?ReturnUrl=LwBEAGUAZgBhAHUAbAB0AC4AYQB zAHAAeAAslashAHAAPQAxADIANwAyADkA)
For a printer-friendly view of the article, click here (http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/gazette_2009_11_11.jpg)

The article contains a link to a very nice video put together by the Oklahoma City Boathouse foundation (aka its web identity, "boathousedistrict," and I'll try to embed that YouTube video below:

orfvuLZWODE&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0

Also, see Boathouse District Masterplan (http://boathousedistrict.blogspot.com/)

Doug Loudenback
11-12-2009, 02:55 PM
Here is the city's November 12 press release, released early this afternoon, also reported at Doug Dawgz Blog: All The News About MAPS 3 (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2009/10/all-news-about-maps-3.html) together with the few comments about it which I have made there:


November 12 OKC Press Release. Early this afternoon, the city issued a press release, fully set out below, which speaks to a proposal by the city to resolve issues with the local Firefighters Union and the Fraternal Order of Police concerning staffing issues raised by those groups in its NotTHISMaps coalition. My understanding is that the proposal will be voted on by union members at meetings to be held this evening. I won't otherwise comment since I am not privy to the proposal and don't presently understand the nuances in the words of the press release.

But, here it is, courtesy of and thanks to Ben Johnson of www.okcreview.com (http://www.okcreview.com/):


http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/citylogo.jpg

11/12/09
Contact: Kristy Yager, 297-2550

Mayor, District Attorney, Councilman address impact of MAPS on public safety

Flanked by the County’s top prosecutor and a former fire chief, Oklahoma City Mayor Mick Cornett today addressed the past impact that MAPS has had on public safety, and discussed a proposal to continue the City’s long-standing tradition of supporting public safety by committing the use tax created by MAPS 3 to police and fire protection.

If MAPS 3 passes on December 8, this commitment could mean that the community will immediately benefit from the addition of new police officers and firefighters, in addition to protecting current public safety positions. The practice of supporting public safety with a MAPS use tax began in 2001 with the passage of MAPS for Kids.

"Right now, at a critical time in our City’s history, we’re facing efforts to confuse our voters into thinking that somehow the passage of MAPS will create public safety issues," said Mayor Cornett. "I can assure you that if we don’t pass MAPS, our public safety issues multiply."

Mayor Cornett explained that in 2001, the voters of Oklahoma City passed MAPS for Kids. In Oklahoma, sales taxes are accompanied by use taxes, which are primarily paid by businesses on products purchased from out of state and intended to be used in Oklahoma. The MAPS for Kids use tax has been applied to public safety capital, such as police cars, fire trucks, police helicopters, technology and fire stations. The total investment from MAPS for Kids in public safety is a staggering $60 million.

"We believe the use tax could add new police officers and firefighters, while also protecting current positions," said Mayor Cornett. "In a time that cities across the nation and in Oklahoma are laying off public safety officers, we're grateful to have this opportunity. But that option goes away without passage of MAPS 3."

Mayor Cornett also discussed the City's overall commitment to public safety. Over two-thirds of the City's general fund is applied towards police and fire protection, and over a quarter-of-a-billion dollars ($285 million) of City funds are spent every year on public safety.

"The economic impact of MAPS over the years has given us more resources to devote to public safety, and we have," said Mayor Cornett. "Our community has a proud history of supporting public safety, and we are grateful for the service of each police officer and firefighter. We hope that the economic impact of MAPS is allowed to continue, which increases our overall resources. And we hope that the impact of the use tax on public safety is also allowed to continue, because that can immediately help to maintain and enhance our public safety departments."

Oklahoma County District Attorney David Prater and Oklahoma City Councilman Gary Marrs also addressed the potential impact MAPS 3 could have on public safety.

"I recognize what MAPS for Kids has done for public safety, and I enthusiastically support any plan for MAPS 3 that can put more police officers on the street," said Prater. "As a former police officer, I know that commitment means a lot to these officers. As a citizen and a prosecutor, I am appreciative for what MAPS for Kids has done for public safety, and I am pleased that MAPS 3 could continue that commitment, in addition to the other projects that will push our City forward."

"The potential impact of the MAPS 3 use tax on the fire department is significant for the firefighters and for our citizens," said Marrs, who is also the former Oklahoma City Fire Chief. "MAPS has been a critical element to our public safety funding in the past, and I’m hopeful we can continue that with MAPS 3."

MAPS 3 is the continuation of the MAPS initiative that first began in 1993. The proposed MAPS 3 does not increase the sales tax rate from its current level. It dedicates one cent of sales tax for seven years and nine months to the construction of eight projects. The projects include a world-class park, transit, a new convention center, sidewalks, trails, health and wellness centers for seniors, improvements at the State Fairgrounds, and improvements on the Oklahoma River. More information can be found at www.okc.gov/maps3 (http://www.okc.gov/maps3).
###
It will be interesting to see how this plays out in tomorrow's news.

Doug Loudenback
11-12-2009, 04:45 PM
A nice article was published this afternoon written by John Estus for the Oklahoman, presumably to be published tomorrow, but likely updated after this evening's union votes.

After tonight, union issues may completely go away, but maybe not. Estus' article is useful in explaining the "use tax" element of MAPS 3, which I had not earlier understood.

Links: NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/maps-3-could-generate-public-safety-money-oklahoma-city-says/article/3416820?custom_click=headlines_widget) and my own more printable version (http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/oklahoman_11_12.jpg).

andy157
11-12-2009, 10:53 PM
The Union made this Use tax proposal to the City back on the 4th of November. The City was advised the campaign would start on the 11th. Now here it is the 12th and they finally want to get serious. I wonder why. They must have wanted us to believe their magnanimous act of goodwill, and their wonderful show of support, was their idea.

Larry OKC
11-13-2009, 02:13 AM
From the Press Release:

"...this commitment could mean that the community will immediately benefit from the addition of new police officers and firefighters,..."

Conflicting messages? Is this like the Resolution of Intent, meaning, is their any binding action by the Council that earmarks these funds?

How is it going to "immediately benefit" when the tax is collected gradually over a period of years? Are they going to borrow the money thru one of the authorized forms of indebtedness to hire the personnel?

Thoughts??


"It dedicates one cent of sales tax for seven years and nine months to the construction of eight projects."

The 1st part of the sentence is correct, the tax will last 7.75 years. The 2nd part is patently false. NOWHERE in the legally binding documents are "eight projects" mentioned nor is there anything "dedicating" funds towards them.

Thoughts??

Doug Loudenback
11-13-2009, 04:35 AM
Larry, my thoughts are that we'll know more particular information this morning when the unions report on their meetings last night. Since the details of the city's offer have not yet been publicly available, everything is guesswork at this point. But, presumably, there would be a contractual obligation with the unions to dedicate all or a portion of the use tax associated MAPS 3 to staffing police and firefighter needs. That's just a guess.

andy157
11-13-2009, 05:07 AM
The Mayor stated that Public Safety (Police and Fire) accounted for over 2/3 of the City's General Fund. He said the two departments combined cost to the General Fund exceeded 1/4 of a Billion dollars, $285,000,000. was the figure he used.

When you examine the City's budget for FY/09-10 you will find that each departments total Expenditure budget is funded by various, as well as numerous different funds, one of which is the City's General Fund. In each departments budget there is also a Transfer back into the City's General Fund from each departments share of the Public Safety Sales Tax Fund.

These Transfers, or Kickbacks if you will, from the dedicated and earmarked special use tax, represent absolute financial relief to the City's overall General Fund. For FY/09-10 the General Fund allocation to Fire was $83,123,999. less the Kickback from the sales tax in the amount of ($11,263,377.) for an adjusted total of $71,860,622. For Police the figures were $105,271,645. less ($11,081,119.) for a adjusted total of $94,190,526.

As you can see the combined General Fund allocations to both departments pre- kickbacks totaled $188,395,644., with a post-kickback totals in the amount of $166,051,148. This is just one of the many examples of how this City and this Mayor conduct business. These figures can be found in the City's FY/09-10 Budget Book on pages 149 and 325 for Fire and Police.

andy157
11-13-2009, 05:14 AM
Larry, my thoughts are that we'll know more particular information this morning when the unions report on their meetings last night. Since the details of the city's offer have not yet been publicly available, everything is guesswork at this point. But, presumably, there would be a contractual obligation with the unions to dedicate all or a portion of the use tax associated MAPS 3 to staffing police and firefighter needs. That's just a guess.Doug the Firefighters met this past Tuesday, only the Police met last night, I have not heard the outcome or any of the details. There is a joint (P & F) news conference today at 10:00 a.m. at the Firefighters Union Hall.

Doug Loudenback
11-13-2009, 09:15 AM
Thanks for the clarification, Andy.

Doug Loudenback
11-13-2009, 11:53 AM
The NotThisMaps coalition presented a new conference this morning and it completely viewable here: NewsOK (http://www.newsok.com/multimedia/video/50148760001)

In a nutshell, the coalition was not persuaded by whatever the city's offer was, was non-plused by yesterday's press conference featuring the mayor, council member marrs, and district of attorney David Prater, and remains fully opposed to MAPS 3.

I plan to rip the audio from yesterday's city hall presentation and the NotThisMaps presentation today ... I don't have decent software to capture the videos which will eventually no longer be available, but I'll keep the audio for historical purposes.

jbrown84
11-14-2009, 08:26 PM
I just LOVE how they claimed to be completely in favor of MAPS 3 and would support it if their concerns were met, the city reaches out to them with a great offer, and they come out not only still opposing it, but with even harsher rhetoric about how MAPS 3 is just not good for the city at this time--"people are worried about their jobs now, not some pie in the sky promise BLAH DI BLAH"

andy157
11-14-2009, 09:19 PM
I just LOVE how they claimed to be completely in favor of MAPS 3 and would support it if their concerns were met, the city reaches out to them with a great offer, and they come out not only still opposing it, but with even harsher rhetoric about how MAPS 3 is just not good for the city at this time--"people are worried about their jobs now, not some pie in the sky promise BLAH DI BLAH"

JB, I have no intention of the both of us getting off track as we did on the TIF issue. Hopefully we can maintain the ability to agree to disagree. However JB I fell compelled to address two of your statements. First, the City was not reaching out to them, although it was the intended purpose to give you that impression. The Firefighters approached the City with the Use Tax idea not visa versa.

Second, the offer was not quite as great as you may have been led to believe. In fact parts of the offer had certain elements about that had the potential of putting the lifes of the Citizens and the Firefighters in jepardy.

Doug Loudenback
11-14-2009, 10:06 PM
Andy, are you in a position to say more particularly what the offer was? I'm trying to put bits and pieces together from (a) Prater's comments on 11/12 and (b) those made made in the 11/13 press conference.

JB is quite right, though ... I distinctly recall at least one official in NotThisMaps, maybe more, that they generally favor Maps, should the staffing issues get resolved. I'll look for who said what tomorrow. Right now, I'm just happy ... Thunder v. Spurs: we win; OSU v. Tech: we win. And, for Sooner fans, they win too. A good evening all the way around.

andy157
11-14-2009, 10:45 PM
Andy, are you in a position to say more particularly what the offer was? I'm trying to put bits and pieces together from (a) Prater's comments on 11/12 and (b) those made made in the 11/13 press conference.

JB is quite right, though ... I distinctly recall at least one official in NotThisMaps, maybe more, that they generally favor Maps, should the staffing issues get resolved. I'll look for who said what tomorrow. Right now, I'm just happy ... Thunder v. Spurs: we win; OSU v. Tech: we win. And, for Sooner fans, they win too. A good evening all the way around.I will ask. But I will say this. If the Fire Chief has various options available at his disposal to handle a staffing issue. If one of those is to close down a Fire Station for a few hours, or maybe a couple of days. He can do that now on his own. But it would be irresponsible for the Union to enter into a written agreement giving him that option

betts
11-15-2009, 06:25 AM
Here's some information about plans for the downtown park. This probably answers the "why not just make the parks we have better?" question (besides the fact that a park downtown would allow the greening of a currently blighted area). Personally, I'm in favor of a wide swath of green punctuated by trees, but I can see that this would bring people downtown specifically to go to the park, and that's a good thing.


MAPS 3 park could be first for Oklahoma City
BY BRYAN DEAN
Published: November 15, 2009

HOUSTON — The $130 million downtown park included in the $777 million MAPS 3 proposal isn’t a park like Oklahoma City residents would recognize.

MAPS 3: Mayor Mick Cornett addresses issues with...
11/15/2009 Building a 70-acre downtown park unlike anything else in the state, let alone Oklahoma City, brings with it some serious questions. The Oklahoman asked Mayor...
Yes, it would have a playground, walking trails and athletic fields. But the concept of a "highly programmed” urban park is a new one for Oklahoma City, and the best way to understand it is to look at similar parks in other cities, Mayor Mick Cornett said. The Oklahoman recently visited Discovery Green Park in Houston. The Greater Oklahoma City Chamber planned the trip, but The Oklahoman paid its own way. The planned MAPS 3 park would be bigger than the 12-acre Houston park, but would have many similar features and was designed by the same company, Hargreaves and Associates.

Houston resident Henry Edgar, who took his beagles, Reagan and Gen. George S. Patton, to the Discovery Green Park on Nov. 7 said Oklahoma City residents will have to change the way they think of a park. "You have to start thinking in terms if Disney World,” Edgar said. "There are so many things to do here. You almost have to plan your visit.”


About Discovery Green
Model boats can be rented and piloted around a pond. In the winter, the pond is changed into an ice-skating rink. Two different amphitheaters featured musicians playing live music most of the day. A couple dozen people took part in a morning yoga class. Parents watched as their kids exercised in a childrens’ fitness class. Dogs ran in an off-leash gated area while their owners sat on benches. In many small tents, a person could learn to fix a bicycle, talk about recycling or buy miniature doughnuts that taste like a New Orleans beignet. A cafe serves quick food like burgers, hot dogs and salads.

"They have a lot of stuff here,” said Jim Campbell of Clear Lake, Texas, who brought his two children to the park. "It’s a simple, cheap way to spend a day together. We wouldn’t come here if there weren’t so many things to do.” The three played catch with a football on the park’s lawn before lunch.


Oklahoma City plans even bigger
Oklahoma City’s downtown park would be 70 acres and would include many of the same activities found in Discovery Green — model boats, amphitheaters, a large playground, a dog park, restaurants, public art and gardens. The MAPS 3 park would have room for athletic fields and green areas with walking and biking trails. The north border would be a boulevard set to replace the current Interstate 40 Crosstown Expressway in 2014. The park would be split into two sections, one between the boulevard to the relocated I-40 and the other from the new I-40 to the north bank of the Oklahoma River.
The two sections would be connected with the Skydance Bridge, a pedestrian bridge with an artistic design. The city began buying up land in the area as part of the Core to Shore program, which began several years ago when city leaders realized the relocated I-40 would give them the opportunity to link downtown with the Oklahoma River.

Cornett said the ultimate goal is to duplicate the types of programs held at Discovery Green every weekend. "We’re not trying to build another park,” Cornett said. "We are trying to build our first ever truly urban park that’s highly programmed; that will become, I think, a traditional gathering place for our community for generations to come.”



Read more: NewsOK (http://www.newsok.com/maps-3-park-could-be-first-for-oklahoma-city/article/3417514?custom_click=lead_story_title#ixzz0Wvxrrxy n)

Larry OKC
11-15-2009, 07:42 AM
A highly "programmed park" was mentioned in the presentation and she mentioned that it shouldn't be a "build it and they will come" (even though some will). She mentioned for the park to be successful, full programming is a requirement. She mentioned that they were working closely with the City about fully programming the park and working out a future budget. Interesting to note that the Mayor is only talking about WEEKEND programming. The slide she showed showed DAILY programming (think it was Houston's). Obviously, the type of programming she mentioned will require financial resources and will have to come from somewhere.

Oil Capital
11-15-2009, 07:52 AM
here's to holding out hope that the tulsa world covers the Maps proposal better than the local fishwrap

ROFL Have you looked at the Tulsa World in the last 10 years or so, or more importantly, in the last year? A good number of their news articles are now directly from the Oklahoman. And they have zero recent history of serious disinterested reporting on Tulsa city projects. The chances of their providing better coverage of something than the Oklahoman are now approximately zero.

betts
11-17-2009, 04:57 AM
Aquatic Centers Discussed at Luncheon:

Although the big pieces of MAPS 3 focus on downtown Oklahoma City, there are several projects to benefit other parts of the city, particularly $50 million that would pay for four or five senior health and aquatic centers, Mayor Mick Cornett said Monday. Mayor Mick Cornett answered questions and gave details about other projects included in the MAPS 3 proposal:

• The $130 million transit piece of MAPS 3 includes money for a transportation hub which would connect a modern streetcar with the city’s bus system, the Heartland Flyer and a future commuter rail system. Although a site hasn’t been chosen, Cornett said it will likely be along the current Heartland Flyer rail line, which runs through downtown.

• The streetcar will not be a looped system. Instead, it will be more of a "spoke and hub” system, Cornett said.

• Expect television commercials in support of MAPS 3 this week. The city’s fire and police unions have formed a campaign against the plan, and Cornett said supporters will aggressively campaign in favor of MAPS 3.

• The proposed downtown park could be the first of the projects completed. Cornett said he’d like to see the park finished by 2014 so that it can open at the same time as the downtown boulevard which will replace Interstate 40 when it is relocated south. The boulevard will be the northern border of the park.

• Cornett said the state of the current economy is factored into the estimate that MAPS 3 will generate $777 million. The sales tax will run for seven years and nine months. Cornett said a longer tax is easier to predict. More of a concern are construction costs, which are difficult to predict and could rise considerably. A contingency of $17 million is built into the plan.


Cornett invited Pat Hays, mayor of North Little Rock, Ark., to speak Monday at the last of a series of luncheons detailing the MAPS 3 projects. Hays led a successful campaign to build a large senior center in his town in 2002. Although locations for Oklahoma City’s proposed senior centers haven’t been chosen, Cornett said each will cost $10 million to $15 million, and they will be spread regionally north, south, east and west.

Hays explained what the centers might look like.

The senior center in North Little Rock is open to people 50 and older. It has two pools, a walking track, exercise equipment, a computer room, a small library, a puzzle room and many gathering spots for residents to sit and talk. Hays said more than 700 people use the center each day. "In the seven years it has been in existence, we have had almost 15,000 people that have joined,” Hays said. "Of that 15,000, we have 5,000 that are active members. We, in terms of visitation, are the highest-used senior center in the country.” Members pay a $25 annual fee. Along with rental space, the membership fees pay for about one-third of the center’s $900,000 annual budget. The rest is subsidized by the city.

Cornett said he doesn’t like the idea of subsidizing the centers. He’d like to see them be self-sufficient, which could mean higher membership fees. The city also could look for sponsorships and could even rent space to vendors who cater to seniors. One other method for keeping costs down would be to partner with a group such as the YMCA or work with universities to help run the centers. "In the next 20 years, the number of seniors in the city is going to double,” Cornett said. "Building these senior centers now will allow us to properly plan for these demographic shifts. "It also sends a very clear and visual message to this community that we prioritize our health.”

The vote for MAPS 3 is scheduled for Dec. 8.

Read more: NewsOK (http://www.newsok.com/mayor-pat-hays-touts-maps-3s-senior-sites/article/3418025?custom_click=headlines_widget#ixzz0X7IpJiP P)

Doug Loudenback
11-17-2009, 06:18 AM
If you want to see the video of the above, it is here: Keep OKC Moving - Vote Yes for MAPS on December 8! (http://www.yesformaps.com/video.html)

I've just finished ripping the audio and should have it up today.

Doug Loudenback
11-19-2009, 11:18 AM
This past Monday's Chamber luncheon, including sound files and summaries, is now up: Doug Dawgz Blog: All The News About MAPS 3 (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2009/10/all-news-about-maps-3.html#chamber3)

The principal speaker was the mayor of North Little Rock and his presentation on Senior Centers came across very well, I thought.

betts
11-22-2009, 12:27 AM
Here you go, Larry. The mayor and/or DOK have clearly read your concern, and this is the response:

If the planned downtown park is the Xbox under the MAPS 3 Christmas tree, Roy Williams also wants you to appreciate the dress socks your grandmother bought you.

The proposed $280 million convention center is the largest part of the $777 million MAPS 3 plan. Williams, president of the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber, said most people consider the convention center a project for business owners and out-of-towners.

Everyone needs dress socks, though.

"It is the biggest economic engine of MAPS,” Williams said of the convention center. "These people come in from out of town, they spend the money and they leave.” The Greater Oklahoma City Chamber commissioned a study earlier this year to determine how much convention space the city needs. The results showed the Cox Convention Center to be inadequate. Worse still, the building is landlocked by major streets and can’t be expanded. The Cox Convention Center brings in an estimated $30 million a year to the local economy, including $10 million in salaries and 400 jobs, Williams said.

"Essentially the new convention center would triple that,” Williams said. "The impact would go up to nearly $80 million. Salaries and wages would go to about $30 million and employment would go to 1,100.”

Phil Sipe, president of the city’s fire union, which is opposing MAPS 3, said he is concerned by the lack of detail provided on the proposed convention center. He points to the chamber’s Web site describing each of the projects.

"If you look at the convention center, there are exactly two sentences that describe how they are going to spend $280 million,” Sipe said. "It needs more detail than that before voters are going to make a decision.” Like the other projects in the MAPS 3 plan, there is no final design for the convention center.

The proposed amenities
The proposed convention center would be 550,000 square feet, which is less than half the size of the Cox Convention Center. "Well over half the Cox Convention Center has nothing to do with conventions,” Williams said. It’s the arena and support space for the arena.” The Cox Convention Center has 84,000 square feet of exhibition space, well short of the 200,000 square feet the study indicated the city needs. The new convention center would meet that need and would include enough adjacent open space to allow for a 100,000 square foot expansion decades later when it might be needed. It would not have an arena. Williams said the new convention center would have a proportional amount of meeting space, ballrooms and lobby areas.

It would also be more convenient for those using the building by including things such as fiber optics, electrical wiring, Internet connectivity and compressed air in the floor, which could be easily accessed by exhibitors. In addition to serving as a community center for luncheons, banquets, graduations and other events, Williams said there will be some bells and whistles.

"Sort of the new paradigm of the convention center is that it’s much more inviting to the citizens,” Williams said. "It has amenities such as retail shops, cafes, coffee shops, other kinds of things that local residents would want to patronize.”

Convention center arms race?
Several national studies question what has become an arms race between major cities to see who can build the biggest and best convention centers. A 2005 study by Heywood Sanders of the Brookings Institution said convention business is declining nationally, with attendance at the 200 largest trade shows at 1993 levels.

Since then, the situation has only gotten worse, said Sanders, a public administration professor at the University of Texas-San Antonio. Sanders cautioned against promising voters vastly increased convention business. He said many cities are using the same strategy as Oklahoma City when it comes to luring more business. "I can go down the list of folks who say all we need is a bigger convention center and ‘this’ will happen,” Sanders said.

"There may be some people who succeed, but more often than not more convention center space yields essentially no more business.” Williams said those numbers apply more to large cities. "Our strategy is not to compete against New York, Chicago, Las Vegas, those cities that are going after the huge conventions,” Williams said. "Those are the conventions that are losing their size. That’s not our market. We are going after the medium-sized conventions and meetings that are still being attended. That market is strong and solid.”

Another factor in the city’s favor is that the area is a bit of a new player in the market.
As MAPS has raised the city’s profile, conventions are considering coming here for the first time, Williams said. "We’re not selling the product we were selling 10 years ago,” Williams said. "Oklahoma City is a completely different destination. We are like a new product on the market. We’re not an old product with a new building.”

Read more: NewsOK (http://www.newsok.com/proposed-oklahoma-city-convention-center-will-include-more-space-room-to-grow/article/3419426?custom_click=headlines_widget#ixzz0XZR9BDO l)

Chance23
11-22-2009, 08:14 PM
Here's some information about plans for the downtown park. This probably answers the "why not just make the parks we have better?" question (besides the fact that a park downtown would allow the greening of a currently blighted area). Personally, I'm in favor of a wide swath of green punctuated by trees, but I can see that this would bring people downtown specifically to go to the park, and that's a good thing.

Why is "downtown" so much better than "anywhere else" in the city? Yeah, it's better for residents of downtown, but for the people who don't live there, shouldn't they be able to have parks where they live as well? Should they be able to not have to drive downtown for a walk in the park?

Blazerfan11
11-22-2009, 08:16 PM
Word is that Couch is fired if this does not pass. McFerron has stated off the record (via his Moore call center) that MAPS is tanking, and that Bennett, McClendon and Nichols are furious with Cornett.

LakeEffect
11-22-2009, 08:31 PM
Word is that Couch is fired if this does not pass. McFerron has stated off the record (via his Moore call center) that MAPS is tanking, and that Bennett, McClendon and Nichols are furious with Cornett.

Who is your source? Why would Couch be fired for something that's not under his control? He can't use City forces to campaign for an election...

Blazerfan11
11-22-2009, 08:36 PM
Trust me on this.

betts
11-22-2009, 09:38 PM
Trust me on this.

Since when, Mr. Hunt, should we believe your data? I doubt Nichols, McClendon or Bennett would make you privy to their thoughts.

Larry OKC
11-22-2009, 11:29 PM
Here you go, Larry. The mayor and/or DOK have clearly read your concern, and this is the response:...

Thanks for posting the article (actually had just read it before coming over to the threads). At first glance, I thought the same thing & thought I was reading new info, but it is essentially the same info that was in the Chamber's Convention Center Study that we have been talking about for 8 months now. WOW, 8 months, time flies when you are having this much fun...LOL

First things first. Yes, long term future growth is a concern, but the immediate concern is, are we planning for the growth that is going to be needed between now and when the C.C. opens? The answer is, doesn't look that way. As the presenter of one of the luncheons pointed out their CURRENT needs are what we are going to have built in 10 years (editorial in Sunday's Oklahoman said 10 -12 years). The Mayor even acknowledged the 10 year gap when talking about the lost business, yet the C.C. in MAPS 3 doesn't address what is going to happen in that 10 year span. It is presuming everything stays static for the next decade.

Anywho, the background info and then responding to this article:


Q&A with Mick Cornett (Oklahoman, 3/11/09)

Q: The Greater Oklahoma City Chamber released a study Tuesday recommending construction of a $400 million convention center. How do you see this proposal moving forward?

A: First of all, the $400 million number you mentioned is if we pursued both a phase one and two. I think we are more focused on considering a phase one in the short term, which would cost closer to $250 million....

From the Chamber's Executive Summary (3/9/09), apparently this is the Phase 1 (MAPS 3)/Phase 2 the Mayor mentioned above.


Summary of Convention Center Program Recommendations

Prime Exhibit Space
Cox: 81,500 sf
New C.C.: 200,000 sf
Expanded: 300,000 sf

...

Total Building Space
Cox: 1,000,000 sf (as mentioned in the article, skewed by the arena)
New C.C.: 570,000 sf
Expanded: 850,000 sf


From the article:

"The proposed $280 million convention center is the largest part of the $777 million MAPS 3 plan."
Check, this comes close to matching up with the Chamber's & Mayor's cost of "Phase 1"


"The proposed convention center would be 550,000 square feet..."
Check. This is the total building space since it goes on to talk about the Cox's higher space number includes the arena. The Study recommended 20,000 more sf, but close enough I guess (even though the cost of the 20,000 LESS sf is $30M MORE).


"The Cox Convention Center has 84,000 square feet of exhibition space, well short of the 200,000 square feet the study indicated the city needs. The new convention center would meet that need..."
Check. Since the sf amount of the building comes close to matching up, can presume the 200,000 sf prime Exhibit Space is roughly there. But have to remember these numbers are the CURRENT sf requirements, not what the requirements will be 10 years from now when the C.C. opens.


"...and would include enough adjacent open space to allow for a 100,000 square foot expansion decades later when it might be needed."
Decades later? How much have sf needs changed from 10 years ago till now? Seems more than likely we will already be needing that 100,000 sf when the C.C. opens. Here comes MAPS 4 ($120M+).


"It is the biggest economic engine of MAPS,” Williams said of the convention center. "These people come in from out of town, they spend the money and they leave.”
Don't disagree with that statement at all. So it still mystifies me as to why the Mayor wants to "stage" the C.C. last (10 years, mol). Seems you would want to get something as important (biggest economic engine) as this up and running as quickly as possible. The nearly 3 times (rounded up from 2.7) that they are estimating in increased sales tax, motel tax, etc, would be flowing in and actually increase the amount of funds available for the other MAPS 3 projects.

The Mayor & Chamber have stated more than once we are CURRENTLY losing convention business due to the Cox limitations, why "stage" it last, 10 years down the road? That's 10 years of lost business.

andy157
11-23-2009, 02:10 AM
Thanks for posting the article (actually had just read it before coming over to the threads). At first glance, I thought the same thing & thought I was reading new info, but it is essentially the same info that was in the Chamber's Convention Center Study that we have been talking about for 8 months now. WOW, 8 months, time flies when you are having this much fun...LOL

First things first. Yes, long term future growth is a concern, but the immediate concern is, are we planning for the growth that is going to be needed between now and when the C.C. opens? The answer is, doesn't look that way. As the presenter of one of the luncheons pointed out their CURRENT needs are what we are going to have built in 10 years (editorial in Sunday's Oklahoman said 10 -12 years). The Mayor even acknowledged the 10 year gap when talking about the lost business, yet the C.C. in MAPS 3 doesn't address what is going to happen in that 10 year span. It is presuming everything stays static for the next decade.

Anywho, the background info and then responding to this article:



From the Chamber's Executive Summary (3/9/09), apparently this is the Phase 1 (MAPS 3)/Phase 2 the Mayor mentioned above.




From the article:

Check, this comes close to matching up with the Chamber's & Mayor's cost of "Phase 1"


Check. This is the total building space since it goes on to talk about the Cox's higher space number includes the arena. The Study recommended 20,000 more sf, but close enough I guess (even though the cost of the 20,000 LESS sf is $30M MORE).


Check. Since the sf amount of the building comes close to matching up, can presume the 200,000 sf prime Exhibit Space is roughly there. But have to remember these numbers are the CURRENT sf requirements, not what the requirements will be 10 years from now when the C.C. opens.


Decades later? How much have sf needs changed from 10 years ago till now? Seems more than likely we will already be needing that 100,000 sf when the C.C. opens. Here comes MAPS 4 ($120M+).


Don't disagree with that statement at all. So it still mystifies me as to why the Mayor wants to "stage" the C.C. last (10 years, mol). Seems you would want to get something as important (biggest economic engine) as this up and running as quickly as possible. The nearly 3 times (rounded up from 2.7) that they are estimating in increased sales tax, motel tax, etc, would be flowing in and actually increase the amount of funds available for the other MAPS 3 projects.

The Mayor & Chamber have stated more than once we are CURRENTLY losing convention business due to the Cox limitations, why "stage" it last, 10 years down the road? That's 10 years of lost business. Larry, if MAPS 3 passes on Dec 8th, then 30 days or so later, the City announces they had decided to move the C.C. project to the head of the line. Would that shock or surprise you?

Larry OKC
11-23-2009, 04:38 AM
Larry, if MAPS 3 passes on Dec 8th, then 30 days or so later, the City announces they had decided to move the C.C. project to the head of the line. Would that shock or surprise you?

I would be pleasantly surprised. The Chamber had said 6 years at one point. I wouldn't be shocked as undoubtedly there are some powerful and influential people at the Chamber, so I would imagine they are pushing for sooner rather than later. But given the Mayor's consistent stance that it be "staged" last (10 years) and Sunday's Oklahoman editorial said "city officials" had put it at 10-12 years. So, who knows?

jbrown84
11-23-2009, 07:27 PM
Why is "downtown" so much better than "anywhere else" in the city? Yeah, it's better for residents of downtown, but for the people who don't live there, shouldn't they be able to have parks where they live as well? Should they be able to not have to drive downtown for a walk in the park?

There are parks all over the city. This is going to be a unique park with unique attractions. A central location makes sense.

Chance23
11-23-2009, 11:29 PM
There are parks all over the city. This is going to be a unique park with unique attractions. A central location makes sense.

There are a lot of parks in the central part of the city, and they gradually taper out the further away you get, to the point where the outskirts of the city have none. You can look at the layout on the city parks website. There are some big parks elsewhere, but you can clearly see that many of the areas away from downtown don't have such (northeast OKC, SW OKC), while downtown has many parks.

So again, not saying a downtown park is a bad idea, but can you look at the park locations and tell me there's something within a reasonable distance to all portions of the city?

jbrown84
11-24-2009, 10:38 AM
Several large parks have been added in the last 10 years to the edges of the city.

Southlakes park down by the airport. Route 66 Park on the west side of Lake Overholser. You also have Earlywine, Will Rogers, Lincoln, Woodson, Trosper, Dolese, Stanley Draper, and Lake Hefner in the suburban areas of OKC.

I'm not sure where you live that you feel you don't have parks nearby. It must be an anomaly, because the parks are well distributed across the city of OKC. You do see fewer smaller neighborhood parks in the newer neighborhoods because the culture in more recent decades was to just turn over plats of land to developers, who (in OKC at least) rarely incorporated parks into their housing developments.

Chance23
11-24-2009, 02:13 PM
Several large parks have been added in the last 10 years to the edges of the city.

Southlakes park down by the airport. Route 66 Park on the west side of Lake Overholser. You also have Earlywine, Will Rogers, Lincoln, Woodson, Trosper, Dolese, Stanley Draper, and Lake Hefner in the suburban areas of OKC.

I'm not sure where you live that you feel you don't have parks nearby. It must be an anomaly, because the parks are well distributed across the city of OKC. You do see fewer smaller neighborhood parks in the newer neighborhoods because the culture in more recent decades was to just turn over plats of land to developers, who (in OKC at least) rarely incorporated parks into their housing developments.

Here, I'll give you a link.

City of Oklahoma City | Parks Maps (http://www.okc.gov/Parks/parks_maps/index.html)

SE, SW, NE and to a lesser extent, NW OKC all show a lack of parks compared to the central portion of the city.

Trosper isn't that far from central OKC. Earlywine is a decent distance away. Draper is the furthest. But if you look out at the rest of the city you should be able to see what I mean. Further NE is pretty much a dead zone and there's no parks at all in SW OKC. The closest there is probably Woodrun, which they haven't even defined. That contrasts pretty clearly from the central area, where there are dozens of parks scattered throughout.

Yes, there are parks scattered about, but there aren't parks in a lot of areas in the city. Some of it is rural, and I get that, but there's still an odd amount of land that isn't supported.