View Full Version : MAPS Public Process Needs Correction



bdhumphreys
10-24-2009, 09:41 AM
http://www.imaginativeamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/imagi_Correcting_A_Poor_Public_Process.jpg

My thanks to Doug Loudenback for the inspiration to speak up.

betts
10-24-2009, 10:10 AM
I have to agree with you. I don't like the process, although that doesn't mean I don't agree with the hoped for end result. I think it's short sighted not to present plans to all the voters, to give them ownership of the concepts, since they're primarily designed for us as a group.

joseph
10-24-2009, 10:15 AM
I attended a free public meeting a couple of weeks ago at Douglas High School where the Mayor spoke and there was many questions answered about the projects - very informative. There were public meetings that week in other parts of the city as well. My business is a member of the Chamber - the luncheon you referenced is a part of the Breaking Through luncheons that the Chamber hosts and the one Monday and the luncheons for the next two weeks focus on MAPS 3 (they are not press conferences). You could watch the presentations live via streaming video on the Chamber website - I believe they are doing these for the next two luncheons as well.

Midtowner
10-24-2009, 12:14 PM
It'll be a good test case to see if the Chamber can ramrod through anything they want... even a ballot asking for $777 million for "capital improvements."

jbrown84
10-24-2009, 04:50 PM
I don't really understand what is going on here. Do they really think they can get this passed without true public announcements/Q&As, etc??? What on earth are they thinking? It's very frustrating. I'm completely for MAPS 3, but this is hurting the cause all the while the naysayers are building their opposition.

lasomeday
10-24-2009, 06:16 PM
They haven't even told us why they chose certain projects. I don't understand why MAPS3 should include anything for the fair grounds. I think a hotel tax should be presented for the fair grounds.

And the senior citizen aquatics center came out of nowhere too.

There are so many holes that need to be filled before people can vote. That is a lot of money for the city to spend.

bdhumphreys
10-24-2009, 07:44 PM
I attended a free public meeting a couple of weeks ago at Douglas High School where the Mayor spoke and there was many questions answered about the projects

Joseph -

I have searched the City's MAPS 3 website (okc.gov/maps3 (http://okc.gov/maps3/)), YESforMAPS.org (http://yesformaps.com/), done a number of google searches for a variety of terms looking for a schedule of public meetings. I even subscribe to the twitter accounts for the OKC Chamber, YESforMAPS, the City of Oklahoma City, and Mayor Mick Cornett - but nothing was announced. If the meetings are listed anywhere, they are incredibly hard to find. I am honestly not trying to create something out of nothing, I am simply commenting on the reality that exists.

Would you mind telling me how you found out about the meeting at Douglas? It seems like the City's MAPS 3 website should list the meeting(s) somewhere, but it ostensibly does not (see here (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=hNq&q=douglas+site%3Aokc.gov%2Fmaps3&aq=f&oq=&aqi=)).

I spent the better part of the last 12 months researching the history of planning and development in Oklahoma City, and the current tactics closely resemble those that led to some of our City's most stunning failures.

Larry OKC
10-24-2009, 10:26 PM
They haven't even told us why they chose certain projects. I don't understand why MAPS3 should include anything for the fair grounds. I think a hotel tax should be presented for the fair grounds.

And the senior citizen aquatics center came out of nowhere too.

There are so many holes that need to be filled before people can vote. That is a lot of money for the city to spend.

Hope this info helps...

Believe the Mayor stated in the initial MAPS press conference that most of the items came from the MAPS 3 online survey done a couple of years ago (said something like 12 of the 14 top suggestions are either in MAPS 3 or already addressed thru things like the 2007 General Obligation & School bond issues).

Two words for the inclusion of the Fairgrounds: Clay Bennett. He has been the head of the Fairgrounds board for several years (decades?) now. A hotel tax already exists for the fairgrounds and either, it has already been dedicated to pay for the bond issues for improvements and/or is already being used for improvements under way. They want more improvements and they don't want to have to wait until those existing funding methods are available again.

The senior citizen centers was one of the MAPS 3 survey suggestions. MAPS 3 | Oklahoma City (http://www.maps3.org/factsheet.html)
It was probably a political consideration (a good number of active voters are in that demographic) and be spreading them across the city, MAPS 3 isn't "just a Downtown thing". When the Ford improvements ($120M) were removed and made a separate vote, that left $120M up for grabs. The "minor" items all fit in that $120M amount and any combination may have been included as a result:

Senior Citizens Aquatics ($50M)
Sidewalks ($10M)
River Improvements ($60M)
Fairgrounds ($60M)
Trails ($40M)
Contingency ($17M)

iron76hd
10-24-2009, 10:49 PM
RAM ROD IT CHAMBER!!! Secret meetings and all.

That won't help it pass though...:congrats:

Larry OKC
10-24-2009, 11:08 PM
...If the meetings are listed anywhere, they are incredibly hard to find. ... It seems like the City's MAPS 3 website should list the meeting(s) somewhere, but it ostensibly does not ...

Agree, there is much talk about things being open and transparent and the critical need to get information to the public, etc., etc., then they keep doing what you have mentioned. Certainly seems self-contradictory at best.

From the More Info sidebar in Luncheons ‘map’ out Oklahoma City’s tax plan details (10/22/09)

More events planned

→Oklahoma City Mayor Mick Cornett has scheduled two more Breaking Through luncheons, during which he and other featured speakers will discuss details about MAPS 3. The luncheons will be 11:30 a.m. to 1 p.m. Oct. 29 and Nov. 16. Both will be at the Petroleum Club, 100 N Broadway Ave., Suite 3400.

→The cost is $30 for Greater Oklahoma City Chamber members and $35 for nonmembers.

→To register, go to Greater Oklahoma City Chamber - Membership Central - Chamber Events Calendar<br> and Registration (http://www.okcchamber.com/events).

Think others have mentioned a free meeting (U.N?) or something like that in other threads. Will see if I can locate and repost the info here.

Larry OKC
10-24-2009, 11:18 PM
MAPS PRESENTATION AT NOVEMBER U.N. SOCIAL
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On November 12, the Untitled Artspace on 3rd Street will host the November social. Not only will the Skirvin’s John Williams and Nonna’s Avis Scaramucci be honored with U.N. Ambassador awards, but Chamber President Roy Williams will be speaking on MAPS 3.

As always, the social will be 5:30 – 7:30 p.m. and free appetizers and a cash bar will be available. See you there!

Hope this helps

OSUFan
10-25-2009, 07:35 AM
Not to really take sides on this but I watched the last luncheon on the chamber's web site live for free.

bdhumphreys
10-25-2009, 09:41 AM
Not to really take sides on this but I watched the last luncheon on the chamber's web site live for free.

Sorry to point out the obvious, but a live feed does not provide an opportunity to ask questions.

Public meetings...have questions. Press conferences...have questions. Infomercials...ahh, now I understand.

joseph
10-25-2009, 09:55 AM
The town hall meetings held a couple of weeks ago at John Marshall High School, Douglas High School, and Integris Southwest were mentioned on local news (I don't recall which one I saw it on). I also heard about it from friends. If you go to one of these, the luncheons, or one of the many upcoming sessions that are being scheduled - I think you will see that questions are encouraged of the Mayor and other speakers. There should be plenty of chances to ask questions and get the information out and I am sure we will hear about many more opportunities in the coming days.

flintysooner
10-25-2009, 10:25 AM
There's been enough information provided for me to consider how I'm going to vote on the proposition.

There are 3 big projects and 5 smaller ones. The plans detailed have been about what I'd expect at this stage of the game which is just a little more than preliminary. The ballot has been defined and all I have to decide is if I want to vote for a one cent sales tax.

City government seems to have pretty much been trustworthy with the previous projects based on what little I know.

I am sympathetic to many of those who oppose but those arguments seem insufficient to persuade me to vote no.

Most everyone I know who can and will vote have made up their mind.

I suppose I could spend a lot more time worrying about details but honestly I see little benefit to it.

bdhumphreys
10-25-2009, 10:37 AM
I am sympathetic to many of those who oppose but those arguments seem insufficient to persuade me to vote no.

Just to be clear, I am not, nor have I ever opposed MAPS 3 or attempted to persuade anyone to vote no.

That said, I strongly object to the public process that has, or rather hasn't, been implemented. We were lied to about what meetings would take place over the summer. Opportunities for engagement have remained extremely limited throughout the past two months. And, even behind the scenes, people are being hushed and intimidated out of sharing ideas.

MAPS 3 will be great for Oklahoma City. But some things are more important than public improvements, especially maintaining an open and honest government. If it takes the disintegration of the latter, in order to obtain the former, then the city overall is taking a step backwards.

lasomeday
10-25-2009, 10:42 AM
I totally agree with BHumphrey. It seems that if a group in OKC wanted something on the ballot they just pushed the mayor and city council to put it on there. I think the Chamber pushed for the convention center and the fair people pushed for their expo center. I am for everything on the ballot except these two. I think if we want these then they should be in a hotel tax not a sales tax. These are deal breakers for me. The convention center is too expensive! And I don't think that any fair ground improvements should be on a MAPS ballot. Didn't we just spend money to upgrade the fairgrounds?

bdhumphreys
10-25-2009, 11:02 AM
lasomeday - I appreciate your agreement and welcome your thoughts on the individual projects.

That said, I do hope that this thread will remain focused on the MAPS 3 public process and not get bogged down in a more general discussion on the merits of the MAPS 3 projects that is already provided for in other threads.

andy157
10-25-2009, 11:46 AM
lasomeday - I appreciate your agreement and welcome your thoughts on the individual projects.

That said, I do hope that this thread will remain focused on the MAPS 3 public process and not get bogged down in a more general discussion on the merits of the MAPS 3 projects that is already provided for in other threads.I'm not lasomeday, but having to pay $35 to learn more about MAPS 3 explains more than I need to know regarding the process. Maybe I should have said all I need to know

bdhumphreys
10-25-2009, 01:01 PM
There should be plenty of chances to ask questions and get the information out and I am sure we will hear about many more opportunities in the coming days.

I don't doubt that we will. I am sure that the city will be scrambling to infuse the process with some strain of legitimacy now that the natives are growing restless.

Of course, they have now waited so that it is too late to change anything. What we will see in the coming weeks is a political campaign - not a public process.

OSUFan
10-25-2009, 01:10 PM
Sorry to point out the obvious, but a live feed does not provide an opportunity to ask questions.

Public meetings...have questions. Press conferences...have questions. Infomercials...ahh, now I understand.

I wasn't trying to prove any points. Just simply stating those luncheons are streamed live for anyone who wants to watch them. I've talked to several people who have had open discussions with the Mayor or other city leaders at different meetings or gatherings. I guess they just need to get the word out better.

bdhumphreys
10-25-2009, 02:08 PM
I guess they just need to get the word out better.

I couldn't agree more!

And the public meetings should have begun well before the MAPS 3 project list was set by the council. City officials were actively discussing MAPS 3 with certain interest groups throughout the spring and summer of 2009 - I think the public deserved similar opportunities for input.

krisb
10-25-2009, 03:27 PM
Agreed that the process could be a lot better. I have been informed that any civic group, neighborhood association, etc can invite the MAPS 3 coalition to speak at their event/meeting/gathering. My understanding is that many neighborhoods and non-profit groups have already hosted some of these meetings.

LakeEffect
10-25-2009, 03:30 PM
Agreed that the process could be a lot better. I have been informed that any civic group, neighborhood association, etc can invite the MAPS 3 coalition to speak at their event/meeting/gathering. My understanding is that many neighborhoods and non-profit groups have already hosted some of these meetings.

Why don't they state that on the www.yesformaps.com site then?

Doug Loudenback
10-25-2009, 06:25 PM
How hard would it be for the chamber and/or the city to simply list upcoming meetings on their respective websites, where held, who's speaking, date and time.

Is that so difficult?

Remember back in the March 4 campaign ... Roy Williams was out and about in well publicized meetings and speaking engagements, and he withstood the heat of those present who were anti-March 4-vote just fine.

The city and the chambers' (compound possessive) posture gives an appearance that they are fearful of possible confrontational encounters. Maybe they are.

jbrown84
10-25-2009, 08:13 PM
They haven't even told us why they chose certain projects. I don't understand why MAPS3 should include anything for the fair grounds. I think a hotel tax should be presented for the fair grounds.

And the senior citizen aquatics center came out of nowhere too.

There are so many holes that need to be filled before people can vote. That is a lot of money for the city to spend.

The list of projects comes from the things requested by citizens on the Maps3 website. The top 10 or 15 were listed in the initial press release, and they all pretty much were covered either by MAPS 3 or the last bond issue.

There is already a hotel tax dedicated to the fair, but there's not enough to do this expo center at this time.


It seems that if a group in OKC wanted something on the ballot they just pushed the mayor and city council to put it on there. I think the Chamber pushed for the convention center and the fair people pushed for their expo center. Didn't we just spend money to upgrade the fairgrounds?

Every project has a special interest group that pushed it. A mostly grassroots citizens group pushed the streetcar. The Chamber (as the promoter of city businesses) pushed the convention center. The fair board pushed their expo center. The Bricktown Association pushed a canal extension that they didn't get. All the projects either benefit the public as things we can directly enjoy, or they benefit us more indirectly by supporting our businesses and expanding tourism, which leads to higher sales tax revenues and more jobs. Some do both.

Larry OKC
10-25-2009, 10:13 PM
How hard would it be for the chamber and/or the city to simply list upcoming meetings on their respective websites, where held, who's speaking, date and time.

Is that so difficult?

Remember back in the March 4 campaign ... Roy Williams was out and about in well publicized meetings and speaking engagements, and he withstood the heat of those present who were anti-March 4-vote just fine.

The city and the chambers' (compound possessive) posture gives an appearance that they are fearful of possible confrontational encounters. Maybe they are.

Couldn't agree more...and with the last part, maybe they are considering the "townhall" rancor that happened over the summer (on the national level)...but if they can't stand the heat......

bdhumphreys
10-26-2009, 07:44 PM
Wanted to update this thread with my most recent posts on the subject. Yesterday, I posted (http://imaginativeamerica.com/) this quote on my blog:


MAPS 3 will be great for Oklahoma City. But some things are more important than public improvements, especially maintaining an open and honest government. If it takes the disintegration of the latter, in order to obtain the former, then the city overall is taking a step backwards.

I am speaking specifically about the public process and I stand by the quote. After thinking it over some more today, I have decided there is no use continuing to harp on this, so I just posted the following:


Hopefully I have made my point on the MAPS 3 public process (http://imaginativeamerica.com/2009/10/maps-3-public-process-needs-correction/) to date. It is clear that what we have witnessed so far cannot possibly represent our City’s best effort at a inclusive process. That said, the past is the past. There is nothing that can be done before the December 8th MAPS 3 vote to rectify the situation – including more blogging on the topic.

Instead, I am looking forward. Looking forward to a favorable result for MAPS 3 at the polls on December 8th. Looking forward to the post-vote public meetings, and planning charettes, and lively discussions (and maybe even an open competition) focused on finding the best locations for the projects and making sure the best ideas are implemented. If such a process takes place in the future, then we can all find the grace to forget what has taken place thus far and channel our energy into ensuring the projects are a success.

I have been told by multiple persons over the past few days, that my public objections to the MAPS 3 public process will hurt my chances of finding a job in Oklahoma City. Well, if that is the case, it is most unfortunate. Because more than anything, I am looking forward to returning to Oklahoma City and contributing my energy and ideas in an effort to make it a better place to live. That was the dream two years ago when I left to attend graduate school and it remains the dream today.

Appreciate the discussion and look forward to working together to ensure the MAPS 3 projects are well planned and successfully implemented!

betts
10-27-2009, 02:19 AM
Appreciate the discussion and look forward to working together to ensure the MAPS 3 projects are well planned and successfully implemented!

Amen. I think efforts need to be directed towards passing MAPS, but, if that happens, the public should not sit idly by and assume the best. Although the vagueness of the language can be perceived as a disadvantage, and I understand peoples' concerns, it can conversely allow for greater public participation by adding decision making to the ongoing process.

Doug Loudenback
10-27-2009, 05:52 AM
Well, I don't think that our city is well served by ignoring issues that are involved RIGHT NOW and which could be as quickly changed. So, I'll keep on keepin' on all the while favoring MAPS 3.

When the time comes that I perceive that there is nothing to be gained by honest and thorough journalism and that it is really better to pretend that it doesn't matter because of a greater good, when that time comes ... when that time comes ... hey, that time will not ever come.

News reporting could be changed RIGHT NOW. I understand that someone from the Chamber made a presentation at the Downtown Rotary Club last night, though I may be mistaken. I've looked for news about the event (yesterday to see if it was noticed anywhere publicly, today to see if any reports appear). Couldn't find anything. Maybe I misunderstood about the presentation.

bdhumphreys
10-27-2009, 09:51 AM
Well, I don't think that our city is well served by ignoring issues that are involved RIGHT NOW and which could be as quickly changed. So, I'll keep on keepin' on all the while favoring MAPS 3.

When the time comes that I perceive that there is nothing to be gained by honest and thorough journalism and that it is really better to pretend that it doesn't matter because of a greater good, when that time comes ... when that time comes ... hey, that time will not ever come.

News reporting could be changed RIGHT NOW. I understand that someone from the Chamber made a presentation at the Downtown Rotary Club last night, though I may be mistaken. I've looked for news about the event (yesterday to see if it was noticed anywhere publicly, today to see if any reports appear). Couldn't find anything. Maybe I misunderstood about the presentation.

Doug - I agree. I didn't mean my "no blogging" statement to be a blanket ban on all bloggers covering all aspects of MAPS 3. I am really glad you have stepped up to offer facts and information that is unfortunately not available anywhere else. Please continue to do so! I only meant to say that on this particular aspect, I feel I have made my point.

By the way, you are right about the Bricktown Rotary event. I think the only definitive announcement came one hour and fifteen minutes before the event in a comment on my blog by Casey Cornett (http://imaginativeamerica.com/2009/10/maps-3-public-process-needs-correction/#comments). I didn't see it show up anywhere else and unfortunately, while the Bricktown Rotary site did show that Mayor Cornett would be speaking, it did not indicate that MAPS 3 would be discussed. Thus, any web searches for a MAPS 3 event would come up empty.

By the way, I hear the event was fairly typical. Surprisingly, even though Bricktown has a tremendous amount to lose if the existing Core to Shore plan is implemented wholesale, there apparently was not a single difficult questions asked during the Q&A.

metro
10-27-2009, 09:53 AM
RAM ROD IT CHAMBER!!! Secret meetings and all.

That won't help it pass though...:congrats:

The same goes for your police/fire unions tactics in opposing MAPS 3! :bright_id

metro
10-27-2009, 10:03 AM
There's been enough information provided for me to consider how I'm going to vote on the proposition.

There are 3 big projects and 5 smaller ones. The plans detailed have been about what I'd expect at this stage of the game which is just a little more than preliminary. The ballot has been defined and all I have to decide is if I want to vote for a one cent sales tax.

City government seems to have pretty much been trustworthy with the previous projects based on what little I know.

I am sympathetic to many of those who oppose but those arguments seem insufficient to persuade me to vote no.

Most everyone I know who can and will vote have made up their mind.

I suppose I could spend a lot more time worrying about details but honestly I see little benefit to it.

Well said. I definitely don't agree with the process. But sufficient evidence doesn't exist to where they are going to "screw us". These people's and future city officials political careers would be DOA if they decided to make major changes. Hopefully they will learn their lesson on any future proposals, but I'm not going to cry over details and hold up progress in this City either.


Just to be clear, I am not, nor have I ever opposed MAPS 3 or attempted to persuade anyone to vote no.

That said, I strongly object to the public process that has, or rather hasn't, been implemented. We were lied to about what meetings would take place over the summer. Opportunities for engagement have remained extremely limited throughout the past two months. And, even behind the scenes, people are being hushed and intimidated out of sharing ideas.

MAPS 3 will be great for Oklahoma City. But some things are more important than public improvements, especially maintaining an open and honest government. If it takes the disintegration of the latter, in order to obtain the former, then the city overall is taking a step backwards.

Blair, I love ya man and agree with your principles. Perhaps you can convince your father, our former Mayor to speak out publically about this honesty and open government issue since he has a lot of clout in this City. I imagine that would go a long way in how our citizens and leaders think.


I totally agree with BHumphrey. It seems that if a group in OKC wanted something on the ballot they just pushed the mayor and city council to put it on there. I think the Chamber pushed for the convention center and the fair people pushed for their expo center. I am for everything on the ballot except these two. I think if we want these then they should be in a hotel tax not a sales tax. These are deal breakers for me. The convention center is too expensive! And I don't think that any fair ground improvements should be on a MAPS ballot. Didn't we just spend money to upgrade the fairgrounds?

It was also citizens, but yes special interest groups had a say so, and frankly, without them a MAPS 3 wouldn't pass. Everyone needs their slice of pie as most items wouldn't pass on their own, the same was said with all previous MAPS programs. We need a new and larger convention center, no matter how unpopular. Look at the numbers compared to peer and even smaller cities. Our numbers are pathetic. I think there is more than sufficient evidence of why we need a new convention center.


I'm not lasomeday, but having to pay $35 to learn more about MAPS 3 explains more than I need to know regarding the process. Maybe I should have said all I need to know

There have been and will be free places to learn and discuss about MAPS 3. Oklahoman has provided info on several events.


Agreed that the process could be a lot better. I have been informed that any civic group, neighborhood association, etc can invite the MAPS 3 coalition to speak at their event/meeting/gathering. My understanding is that many neighborhoods and non-profit groups have already hosted some of these meetings.

I don't know about every organization. But I'm sure they'd be willing to send some representative to speak to your group. The council members, chamber, and others have been meeting with HOA's and other groups for a month or so now. Definitely ask for a meeting if you can set one up.

Doug Loudenback
10-27-2009, 10:24 AM
Metro, I hadn't thought to add anything further in this thread, but you said,


There have been and will be free places to learn and discuss about MAPS 3. Oklahoman has provided info on several events.
Aside from the Oklahoman's after the fact reporting on the 10/21 Chamber lunch, and in which modest reporting it mentioned the location of the next 2 "Breaking Through" luncheons, I'd be very appreciative of any other meetings -- "several events" -- which have been mentioned in the Oklahoman before they occurred ... even after they occurred. I'm honestly not aware of any.

Can you advise?

Doug Loudenback
10-27-2009, 10:34 AM
One more thing:

A lot of this could be cleared up nicely if the Mayor and David Thompson would simply conduct a true public press conference and take questions from real reporters.

What a concept!

Even if the Oklahoman might not send any of its established reporters (but it might ... how would it look if it did not do so), I'm sure that the Gazette and Journal Record, as well as News9, etc., would be more than glad to attend and tell whatever stories there might be to tell.

bdhumphreys
10-27-2009, 11:25 AM
Metro, I hadn't thought to add anything further in this thread, but you said,


Aside from the Oklahoman's after the fact reporting on the 10/21 Chamber lunch, and in which modest reporting it mentioned the location of the next 2 "Breaking Through" luncheons, I'd be very appreciative of any other meetings -- "several events" -- which have been mentioned in the Oklahoman before they occurred ... even after they occurred. I'm honestly not aware of any.

Can you advise?

I agree with Doug on this one. Just to double check, I went through the first five pages of Google results with the search term: "maps 3" and "public meeting" (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&q=%22maps+3%22+%22public+meeting%22&start=0&sa=N)...I even tried again with: "maps3" and "public meeting" (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=CYV&q=%22maps3%22+and+%22public+meeting%22&aq=f&oq=&aqi=) just to be certain.

So far, all I have found are unrelated sites and comments from myself, Doug, and others asking "Where are all the MAPS 3 public meetings?".

proud2Bsooner
10-27-2009, 11:47 AM
I guess some are upset that their hands didn't get to dip in the cookie jar...I dunno.

The great thing about MAPS is that tangible things are laid out on the table. You either vote that you want to pay for it or not. It's simple. Now maybe we all don't get to decide what goes on the ballot, but who has that kind of time???

I tell ya who...those who could benefit from these deals... So some guys benefit from the progress of the City, whats new? Maybe this is a new set of guys. Maybe they are from the newer mayors camp and not the old mayors camp. I dunno.

This is about the progress of OKC. And we all get to vote. All this bickering serves no purpose as far as I am concerned. Unions and other greedies are stirring up trouble.

Its laid out there. Either vote yes or vote no on the merits of the proposals.

Doug Loudenback
10-27-2009, 12:23 PM
You are so totally missing the point, proud. I'm voting yes. Blair is, too. Oh, well ...

bdhumphreys
10-27-2009, 12:50 PM
You are so totally missing the point, proud. I'm voting yes. Blair is, too. Oh, well ...

Hear! Hear!

proud2Bsooner
10-27-2009, 02:52 PM
You are so totally missing the point, proud. I'm voting yes. Blair is, too. Oh, well ...

Then perhaps the point has been no better laid out than the vision of MAPS3. How many people should be allowed in on the decision? The situation could easily turn into a money grab. It's human nature to push for items that would benefit your cause ($$$).

Exactly what has been missed in this MAPS3 proposal? Because we're basically talking generalities here about the process, which does not appear to do us any good. It's basically just bellyaching. The process is the process, and someone has to draw a line on whom will be involved. You can only take so many suggestions, and frankly, what has been laid out as the offering looks quite appealing. But who knows?

It seems that certain people were removed from the process. I'm not in the know enough to understand why that may be. I'm sure some know or have good suspicions.

Midtowner
10-27-2009, 02:56 PM
Proud, I think what folks are grasping at is that the claim by the City that this process would be open to the public was basically a lie. They have a website which has very little content, ran a survey, and otherwise have not included the public much at all.

This is of great concern to some because we generally do not trust things which are unfamiliar or even worse, government sponsored agendas which purposely excluded the public from the decisionmaking process. The City is asking for a hell of a lot of trust for us to just fork over the money for these projects which they'll be in no way bound to complete.

proud2Bsooner
10-27-2009, 03:02 PM
Proud, I think what folks are grasping at is that the claim by the City that this process would be open to the public was basically a lie. They have a website which has very little content, ran a survey, and otherwise have not included the public much at all.

This is of great concern to some because we generally do not trust things which are unfamiliar or even worse, government sponsored agendas which purposely excluded the public from the decisionmaking process. The City is asking for a hell of a lot of trust for us to just fork over the money for these projects which they'll be in no way bound to complete.

Despite much of the current-era political rhetoric, we do not live in a democracy. I'm no MAPs expert, nor am I an attorney, but how is the current process different than previous projects? Were there public meetings with input garnered from local residents? My memory does not serve me, nor did I have a famous local last name for me to know.

Midtowner
10-27-2009, 03:09 PM
I think expectations for openness in 2009 are vastly different from 1993.

proud2Bsooner
10-27-2009, 04:04 PM
Maybe they are different, but comparing this to the City's past failures sure seems like an overreaching and dangerous statement...particularly when this is something that one alledgedly supports. The arguments presented about transparency sound awfully flakey on one hand (i.e. democracizing the process??? To what extent???) and self-serving on the other (MY vision for OKC). Both bad. People who criticize should be ready to be criticized. This discussion is usless at this point. We all get to vote. Sorry your voices weren't heard. Mine wasn't either, but I'm not b!tching and moaning about it.

Doug Loudenback
10-27-2009, 04:36 PM
Despite much of the current-era political rhetoric, we do not live in a democracy. I'm no MAPs expert, nor am I an attorney, but how is the current process different than previous projects? Were there public meetings with input garnered from local residents? My memory does not serve me, nor did I have a famous local last name for me to know.
Well, whether we live in a democracy, I guess that we disagree. The citizens of the city will decide whether to pass the proposal, at least, I hope so.

Which leads me to the second matter. You asked how MAPS 3 is different than previous projects.

Aside from ballot issues, the main other thing that is different is that in MAPS and MAPS For Kids, journalists, and I'm talking about Oklahoman journalists, were free to investigate, write articles, and report upon the opinions of those having a con-MAPS position with the 1st 2 MAPS initiatives, notwithstanding that the editorial position of the paper was pro-MAPS.

In MAPS 3, David Thompson, Chairman of the Chamber's Board, is leading the Chamber's campaign; David is president of the OPUBCO Communications Group; and Oklahoman reporters are being disallowed to perform the same roles that they did in MAPS and MAPS For Kids. And that has an enormous bearing upon the roll of the press in a democracy.

When the 4th estate becomes so entwined with government as to control what its readers get to read, that's a problem. It's one thing for a newspaper to have an editorial opinion; it's another for that editorial opinion to subjugate its news and reporting functions.

If this doesn't bother you in the slightest, well, all I can again say is that we disagree.

I'm fine with the projects selected, even if the process wasn't the open one which was promised. You keep talking about stuff which is beside the point of the matters being discussed in this thread, though I don't know why.

bdhumphreys
10-27-2009, 04:57 PM
Despite much of the current-era political rhetoric, we do not live in a democracy. I'm no MAPs expert, nor am I an attorney, but how is the current process different than previous projects? Were there public meetings with input garnered from local residents? My memory does not serve me, nor did I have a famous local last name for me to know.

Hmm, I really seem to have ticked you off. Not sure I understand the reason for lashing out. The fact that I balance my boosterism with logic and principles doesn't seem like such a bad thing. Why can't we get our MAPS 3 projects and a legitimate public process? That doesn't seem like too much to ask.

Anyway, to answer your question: Yes, there were public meetings with the previous MAPS efforts.


Proud, I think what folks are grasping at is that the claim by the City that this process would be open to the public was basically a lie. They have a website which has very little content, ran a survey, and otherwise have not included the public much at all.


Exactly!



I think expectations for openness in 2009 are vastly different from 1993.

True, and yet the previous MAPS efforts still managed to have a more substantial public process.


Aside from ballot issues, the main other thing that is different is that in MAPS and MAPS For Kids, journalists, and I'm talking about Oklahoman journalists, were free to investigate, write articles, and report upon the opinions of those having a con-MAPS position with the 1st 2 MAPS initiatives, notwithstanding that the editorial position of the paper was pro-MAPS.

In MAPS 3, David Thompson, Chairman of the Chamber's Board, is leading the Chamber's campaign; David is president of the OPUBCO Communications Group; and Oklahoman reporters are being disallowed to perform the same roles that they did in MAPS and MAPS For Kids. And that has an enormous bearing upon the roll of the press in a democracy.

It is hard to believe that this is true, but one needs no more evidence than Doug's matrix comparing the quality and number of articles (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2009/10/about-our-principal-bee-watcher.html). Given the size of the conflict, one would think the Oklahoman would at least always disclose it in articles covering MAPS 3, but they have not.

bdhumphreys
10-27-2009, 05:35 PM
People who criticize should be ready to be criticized.

Oh, forgot to mention. Feel free to dish out whatever you want. I have screwed up plenty in my life, so it is not too difficult to find things to criticize.

Larry OKC
10-27-2009, 06:19 PM
... Perhaps you can convince your father, our former Mayor to speak out publically about this honesty and open government issue since he has a lot of clout in this City. I imagine that would go a long way in how our citizens and leaders think.

Seems unlikely since he is the co-treasurer of the Yes Camapign but we can hope. Not eacatly the same of course, but there are a few things in common. Ran across this old article recently and seems apropos...

Does the county sheriff need a sales tax? | Journal Record, The (Oklahoma City) | Find Articles at BNET (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4182/is_20030501/ai_n10157909/)
Does the county sheriff need a sales tax?
Journal Record (5/1/03)

"This is not about public safety," Humphreys continued. More than 98 percent of the citizens of Oklahoma County have a municipal police force that patrols their neighborhoods, Humphreys said. It doesn't seem equitable to tax 100 percent of the people to pay for services for 2 percent, he said. Humphreys quoted the sheriff's claims that crime is down by 60 percent.

"It's totally unaccountable," Humphreys said. "If the sheriff wanted to buy a jet airplane, he could, according to this ballot language, and he'd be answerable to nobody." The semi-annual reports the ballot would require would only show how funds were spent after the fact, he said.
.....
Members of the Sheriff's Citizens Advisory Committee mentioned in the ballot, which would be responsible for overseeing how the funds are spent, serve at the sheriff's pleasure, he said.
...
Though the sheriff has said a large portion of the money from the tax would go to the jail, and that Oklahoma City would no longer need to pay the county millions each year to house prisoners, Humphreys stressed that those words are not contained in the ballot.

bdhumphreys
10-27-2009, 06:25 PM
That is a pretty impressive find Larry. The comments certainly allow for some interesting parallels to be drawn.

Doug Loudenback
10-27-2009, 06:59 PM
Larry's a snitch. Let's get him.

Doug Loudenback
10-27-2009, 07:00 PM
:dizzy: :dizzy: :dizzy:

Midtowner
10-27-2009, 08:01 PM
WOW Larry, totally awesome stuff.

That is freakin' fantastic.

That said, the parallels are not perfect. While the sheriff is an elected official, c'mon, when is the last time an Oklahoma County Sheriff ever lost an election? City councilmen lose 'em all the time and there are several of 'em.

So yeah, I can draw some distinctions, but they ain't perfect.

Larry OKC
10-28-2009, 06:01 AM
Thanks Doug, bdhumphreys & midtowner...for ending my day laughing

That's one of the inherent problems with analogies, they are rarely EXACTLY the same (by definition: 2a: resemblance in some particulars between things otherwise unalike : similarity).

Doug Loudenback
10-30-2009, 08:37 PM
Well, I don't think that our city is well served by ignoring issues that are involved RIGHT NOW and which could be as quickly changed. So, I'll keep on keepin' on all the while favoring MAPS 3.

When the time comes that I perceive that there is nothing to be gained by honest and thorough journalism and that it is really better to pretend that it doesn't matter because of a greater good, when that time comes ... when that time comes ... hey, that time will not ever come.

News reporting could be changed RIGHT NOW. I understand that someone from the Chamber made a presentation at the Downtown Rotary Club last night, though I may be mistaken. I've looked for news about the event (yesterday to see if it was noticed anywhere publicly, today to see if any reports appear). Couldn't find anything. Maybe I misunderstood about the presentation.
It is no small pleasure for me to note that Steve Lackmeyer was authorized by the Oklahoman to attend the October 29 Breaking Through luncheon and that he was allowed to report on the event today, October 30, in the Oklahoman and more extensively in his OkcCentral blog (http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2009/10/30/maps-3-central-park-and-the-myriad-gardens/).

How these significant facts developed must surely be a great story all by itself -- I would have loved to have been an invisible man watching the hand-wrenching and hair-pulling which must have occurred within the cloistered and guarded walls of the OPUBCO Building on Broadway Extension before this was allowed to happen.

In any event, I sincerely commend those at the Oklahoman who were responsible for making this happen.