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metro
10-13-2009, 08:50 AM
Okay, I decided to start a thread on these "urgent needs" expressed by a couple posters that are derailing other threads. Several members suggested to start a new thread for that topic, so here you go. Discuss the "urgent needs" of the Police and Fire Depts. I'm all for supporting them, just wondering why they are waiting until now to raise a fuss if it's been a problem for 9 years. How come they didn't boycott MAPS for Kids, or even the recent MAPS for Ford Center Improvements?

kevinpate
10-13-2009, 08:54 AM
because they are bball fans?
because they knew having lots more folks flooding downtown was to their benefit when they did make a call for action?
because I don't know?
ding ding, we have a winnah!

ThePlainsman
10-13-2009, 09:21 AM
OK, I'm game. I support MAPS and will continue to support it. However, since we have police/fire folks clamoring for attention, here's what I want to know. Just some facts. I'm a big boy and will form my own opinion based on the facts provided. 1)How many police officers and firemen are currently active in OKC? 2)How does that compare with similar-sized cities across America? 3)How do OKC crime statistics compare with other similar-sized cities? 4)I'd prefer raw numbers instead of percentages, 5)How does the management structure compare to other cities of similar size?

If one of you folks can provide these FACTS, and these facts bear out some dissonance with similar situated cities, then, I'm open to suggestions in terms of solutions.

Just put some facts out there. Real facts. Cite some sources.

metro
10-13-2009, 09:30 AM
and heaven forbid our media do any research and demand facts and comparisons, they just allow the sensationalism from the fire and police on camera, without doing any real journalism.

kevinpate
10-13-2009, 09:49 AM
I don't know of the needs are real, perceived or simply desired.

As to the media, giving time to anyone with the call of "It's to protect you and your children" is often a close second to "It's for the children", irrespective of what It may be.


FWIW, my limited dealing with OKCS Fire and OKC Police suggests to me they are good peeps doing hard work.

Midtowner
10-13-2009, 11:49 AM
Their opposition amounts to no more than a union bargaining ploy. They weren't given raises for 2009 due to the economy and are hellbent on pressuring the city to reconsider that decision.

This is pretty shortsighted on their part since the only way we can pay them is by increasing tax revenues which can only be achieved through developing a larger tax base which can only happen if... well you get the idea.

smooth
10-13-2009, 12:39 PM
OK, I'm game. I support MAPS and will continue to support it. However, since we have police/fire folks clamoring for attention, here's what I want to know. Just some facts. I'm a big boy and will form my own opinion based on the facts provided. 1)How many police officers and firemen are currently active in OKC? 2)How does that compare with similar-sized cities across America? 3)How do OKC crime statistics compare with other similar-sized cities? 4)I'd prefer raw numbers instead of percentages, 5)How does the management structure compare to other cities of similar size?

If one of you folks can provide these FACTS, and these facts bear out some dissonance with similar situated cities, then, I'm open to suggestions in terms of solutions.

Just put some facts out there. Real facts. Cite some sources.

I don't remember exact numbers, however, there are over 1,000 uniformed personnel in each department. Both are short staffed.

Although one of the last bond issues provided a major remodel of the police headquarters building, it needs to be replaced. It is too small and outdated.

In addition, the fire department always has an urgent need for new motorized equipment. The latest round are manufactured by Farara based in Louisiana, and are really smooth, nice air conditioning, and LED lights. The older equipment breaks down often and feel like riding on an old buckboard. Plus, they are slow and don't have enough water storage.

About 1/3 of the fire stations are in horible condition and need replacing. Most have drives that allow entry from the rear, however, many don't. Some are being replaced, however, many more are needed. Plus, the outlining areas need more stations.

If you want sources, then you are welcome to contact the public information division of each department. You can also visit a fire station and see it first hand.

andy157
10-13-2009, 04:50 PM
Their opposition amounts to no more than a union bargaining ploy. They weren't given raises for 2009 due to the economy and are hellbent on pressuring the city to reconsider that decision.

This is pretty shortsighted on their part since the only way we can pay them is by increasing tax revenues which can only be achieved through developing a larger tax base which can only happen if... well you get the idea.Midtowner, for what it's worth I have always respected your views, and on most subjects I agree with what you have to say 99% of the time. But with all due respect, for you to say this is a Union ploy to get a raise is incorrect. Though I doubt it will happen, I would love the opportunity to give you the facts, figures, and some of the history of whats happen and in most cases not happen since Maps 1. It may not change your mind, but it might explain why this line in the sand has been drawn.

OSUFan
10-13-2009, 05:51 PM
Midtowner, for what it's worth I have always respected your views, and on most subjects I agree with what you have to say 99% of the time. But with all due respect, for you to say this is a Union ploy to get a raise is incorrect. Though I doubt it will happen, I would love the opportunity to give you the facts, figures, and some of the history of whats happen and in most cases not happen since Maps 1. It may not change your mind, but it might explain why this line in the sand has been drawn.

So please explain what the unions will gain directly by opposing and trying to defeat MAPS? How does this help them achieve their goals? What does staff shortages have to do with MAPS 3? Maybe I'm missing something but if MAPS fails we are still at square one with the unions correct? Help me see how these are two related issues.

LakeEffect
10-13-2009, 06:06 PM
Their opposition amounts to no more than a union bargaining ploy. They weren't given raises for 2009 due to the economy and are hellbent on pressuring the city to reconsider that decision.

This is pretty shortsighted on their part since the only way we can pay them is by increasing tax revenues which can only be achieved through developing a larger tax base which can only happen if... well you get the idea.

:congrats:

Midtowner
10-13-2009, 09:06 PM
Midtowner, for what it's worth I have always respected your views, and on most subjects I agree with what you have to say 99% of the time. But with all due respect, for you to say this is a Union ploy to get a raise is incorrect. Though I doubt it will happen, I would love the opportunity to give you the facts, figures, and some of the history of whats happen and in most cases not happen since Maps 1. It may not change your mind, but it might explain why this line in the sand has been drawn.

Andy, thanks for your response. If you look around the country, (and I really don't have the answer to this) how does OKC compare insofar as the equipment our emergency personnel are using, facilities, etc. as compared to peer cities?

Surely you can't actually expect to always have the newest and best equipment. All equipment has an expected usability time -- it's good for a few years, it's passable for a few more, then it has outlived its life. Where are we on that curve?

The city recently passed some major bond issues to benefit the Fire Department and Police Department. Some are saying those measures are inadequate. You've probably read my posts and you know when it comes to any sort of government, I've said it before -- no government worker ever thinks their situation is adequate. More and better is always available because supplying municipalities with cool equipment is the business of lots of folks... but when it comes to what the taxpayers need, newer/cooler equipment might not always be the best use of funds.

The equipment and facilities are there to help you do an adequate job, so what is not getting done and why are the present facilities, including those paid for in the 2007 bond issue not adequate? And how can opposing MAPS cure these ills? I'm open to information here, and I think this is a great place for you to be making your case. I came to know tonight in a very dramatic way that city leaders and opinion leaders do read this board. So if I'm wrong and this isn't a collective bargaining ploy, what is it? What's going on?

Steve
10-13-2009, 10:09 PM
I'm not taking sides here or entering into the debate. Nor is it up to me to identify the person behind the screen name. But in this case I know Andy, and suffice it to say, he's definitely an expert when it comes to arguments being made by the fire union.

Urban Pioneer
10-13-2009, 10:29 PM
I just watched the city council and it seems like bargaining to me. The firemen have been quite respectful but it was made clear at the council meeting that there is an offer on the table that they would like to see pursued. The representative suggested that he would "rather not see it go to a vote of the people." I would rather have people vote on it than it be a vote for against MAPS as MAPS has nothing to do with it other than bargaining.

betts
10-13-2009, 10:49 PM
I agree with other people here in saying I am not at all against our police and fire personnel being adequately compensated for their work. Nor am I interested in them having to work unconscionably long hours (although we're fine with our doctors doing so, and they've got people's lives in their hands at least as often). I'd simply like to know how we compare with other comparable cities. Two which come to mind are Indianapolis and Salt Lake City. They're two cities of reasonably similar size that probably have similar needs. How do we compare to them? Then, I'd also like to see a computation of disposable income. People talk all the time about the fact that our salaries here are so low. That is true, but our cost of living is also very low. Once when we were discussing potential NBA ticket sales in Oklahoma City I computed average income, average housing prices, taxes, etc between OKC and Seattle. What I found was that although salaries were far higher in Seattle, when you factored in living costs, we probably had as much, if not more, disposable income as they did. So, I'm not as interested in actual salaries as I am in disposable income comparisons.

Patrick
10-14-2009, 04:05 AM
So please explain what the unions will gain directly by opposing and trying to defeat MAPS? How does this help them achieve their goals? What does staff shortages have to do with MAPS 3? Maybe I'm missing something but if MAPS fails we are still at square one with the unions correct? Help me see how these are two related issues.

:congrats:

Patrick
10-14-2009, 04:10 AM
I'm not taking sides here or entering into the debate. Nor is it up to me to identify the person behind the screen name. But in this case I know Andy, and suffice it to say, he's definitely an expert when it comes to arguments being made by the fire union.


Doesn't take rocket science to figure out it's Andy Summers with IAFF local 157. Why the need for such secrecy? His screenname obviously says who he is. Nothing secret about it. And Andy is a great guy....respect him a lot. We just differ in our opinions.

Simply put, opposing MAPS 3 does nothing to benefit the fire dept. They're simply using MAPS 3 as a leveraging tool to try to get their pay increased. I don't know too many govt jobs right now that are increasing salaries or are hiring. I work as a physician for the VA, and we're on a hiring freeze and experiencing pay cuts. So, why should the OKCFD be any different? Face it, the economy sucks, and deal with it. If anything the MAPS programs have kept our city from losing jobs by keeping major employers like Devon from leaving. It's a good investment.

bombermwc
10-14-2009, 07:23 AM
AMEN Patrick - everyone has to make a sacrifice right now. If the FD and PD feel that they in some way should be exempt from that matter, then I'd love to hear their plans for raising funds for their needs. They aren't going to get a tax any higher than it is now, so might as well forget that. And if they want capital items, then they need to get some ongoing bonds started. I'm not interested in funding new trucks out of an ongoing tax. I gurantee that if that got started, we'd see funding wasted on things we don't need. Crap - just look at the Sherrif's department and how much money they waste on crap they don't need. They piss and moan on a daily basis about wanting more while they waste money on toys every chance they get.

I definitely agree that some of the fire stations need to be replaced...and more probably need to be remodeled. But I'm going to echo a previous comment. There's adequate and then there's want. What they want is the best new whatever....but they don't need that. I'll support more man power, but we also need to start weeding out that retirement crap. Why do they still have full retirement? I don't, pretty much no one else does....but that's a whole different arguement. The day paramedics, doctors, and the average joe gets retirement, then I'll feel differently.

iron76hd
10-14-2009, 07:54 AM
The line has been drawn because Police, Fire, and City Services don't think they can support a MAPS3. They can't in vote for something when they truely know the state of our city services.

I invite anyone who wants to listen to a few of the interviews done with representatives from Police and Fire to google "okc issues podcast". Their are some interesting facts that have been given in the interviews.

There is also a study that was done by an independent company. A study called for and supported by counsel. The "Berkshire Study" will be made available to Mark Shannon from 1000am in the next couple of days. This is a study that states our Police Department is short at least 200 officers to address the CURRENT city. A study that states our current Gang Unit of 12 should be about 40 to combat our CURRENT gang problem. A study that all can read. During the meeting in which the representatives were presenting to the Police Chief, Mayor and Counsel, the Mayor coundn't or didn't want to listen and left early never to return.

They are not bargaining. Begging for city leaders to listen to our understaffing levels and address those before we move on MAPS3 that's it.

They didn't want to have to air out dirty laundry. They didn't want to have to explain how the Mayor and Counsel have ignored staffing levels in EVERY part of City Services. City Employee's have pride in their city and it's leaders. It's a last resort to not support something they tell our citizens is great for them, but now it's become necessary.


Mark Shannon at 1000am from 5-7 pm has at least let SOME of the facts out.

OSUFan
10-14-2009, 08:24 AM
The line has been drawn because Police, Fire, and City Services don't think they can support a MAPS3. They can't in vote for something when they truely know the state of our city services.

I invite anyone who wants to listen to a few of the interviews done with representatives from Police and Fire to google "okc issues podcast". Their are some interesting facts that have been given in the interviews.

There is also a study that was done by an independent company. A study called for and supported by counsel. The "Berkshire Study" will be made available to Mark Shannon from 1000am in the next couple of days. This is a study that states our Police Department is short at least 200 officers to address the CURRENT city. A study that states our current Gang Unit of 12 should be about 40 to combat our CURRENT gang problem. A study that all can read. During the meeting in which the representatives were presenting to the Police Chief, Mayor and Counsel, the Mayor coundn't or didn't want to listen and left early never to return.

They are not bargaining. Begging for city leaders to listen to our understaffing levels and address those before we move on MAPS3 that's it.

They didn't want to have to air out dirty laundry. They didn't want to have to explain how the Mayor and Counsel have ignored staffing levels in EVERY part of City Services. City Employee's have pride in their city and it's leaders. It's a last resort to not support something they tell our citizens is great for them, but now it's become necessary.


Mark Shannon at 1000am from 5-7 pm has at least let SOME of the facts out.

Again, how does defeating maps help you get closer to your goals? What do the unions hope to gain out of maps being defeated?

betts
10-14-2009, 08:33 AM
Sorry, but you should have chosen a different media source. I refuse to listen to Mark Shannon's show.

I can understand, but disagree with, people who don't support MAPS because they don't want to pay any taxes. I can understand, but disagree with, people who don't support MAPS because they don't like the projects. But, if the police and firemen's unions are going to say "We'll show you. If you don't give us what we want, we're going to see if we can defeat something you want", how can you ask us to support you? That's childish behavior, and it frightens me to think that the people who are protecting my life would stoop to childish behavior. The two are completely independent issues, so don't try to tie them together. I also don't support a union telling its members how to vote, regardless. I find that unconscionable.

Things are rarely as simple as they are presented. It seems as if the unions are refusing to consider the possibility that further development of our city might actually increase money available to support our police and firemen. A rising tide lifts all boats. I would be interested in reading a copy of the Berkshire Study, but I'll not listen to rant radio to hear it. If I agree, then I'll do my part and encourage our city council to do something about the problem. But, I will ALSO be voting yes for MAPS. We need more people, and more development in the city itself to raise property values and property taxes which can be used to improve city services. We don't need to give people reasons to move elsewhere.

Midtowner
10-14-2009, 09:07 AM
Shannon doesn't really do his homework. He reads the policy statements of groups like OCPA or in this case the unions and he latches on to those conclusions as if they were his own. He doesn't strike me as a real smart guy, so his analysis isn't worth very much to me. Ron Black, on the other hand, was worth a listen. The man did his own research and his own homework. He didn't always reach the same conclusion, but at least he thought things through.

At any rate, back to the subject, it sounds like the unions are cutting off their nose to spite their face.

Most academics will tell you that when they're reading a study, they'll first read the abstract (which tells you what the study is) and then skip straight to the methodology to see whether the research is worth a crap. I'll withhold judgment on the study's conclusions until I've seen the methodology. Typically, studies like this are commissioned in order to prop up a preconceived conclusion, so they're not worth a lot.. maybe this one's different, but I doubt it.

Since obviously, staffing is not going to be funded by a bond issue or a new sales tax, the only realistic solution to the unions' problems is for the tax base to increase, and with it, their funding levels. If this isn't a union ploy to get more cash, then iron, andy, tell me how opposing measures which will improve our tax base helps improve these vital services?

neverontime
10-14-2009, 09:20 AM
I agree with the comment about beefing up the gang unit. It seems like every time areas like midtown or bricktown finally take off you see more speed traps and DUI sting operations. Meanwhile, in my neighborhood people are getting robbed, harassed by adolecents who break in homes go to Juvenile Detention and return the next day with a vendetta against the person who called the cops on them. Why don't we put our limited resources towards reducing hard crimes???

brianinok
10-14-2009, 10:08 AM
I've yet to see one argument how defeating maps will help the police or fire departments do their jobs better. I'M WAITING!

soonerguru
10-14-2009, 10:10 AM
Well that settles it for me. I was a huge fire and police union supporter, but no more. They want to punish the entire city so they can get a raise, and where I work, people are getting pay cuts and layoffs as well.

This is childish and short-sighted and over time, the public will tune them out.

Dumb, dumb politics.

Consider me anti-cops and fire unions at this point. I'm done.

proud2Bsooner
10-14-2009, 10:43 AM
It sounds like police and fire are using an unrelated suject in MAPS3 to garner their own attention to me. MAPS3 has nothing to do with police and fire. If police and fire need attention there are other ways to address them. I guess they're mad because they were not included in MAPS3, and my guess is that they threatened to oppose it if they weren't included.

If police and firemen ares so overworked, why do they choose to take side jobs? I don't think its to survive. I think it's to maintain a certain lifestyle that they choose.

I know plenty of police and fire people, with little more than high school educations, that live in 3000+ square foot homes...mostly because they do things like build houses, do other construction work, or take security jobs. City pay increases will never amount to the money they make on the side to maintain the lifestyles to which I am referring.

Their jobs allow them lots of time for side jobs. I'm sure the side jobs make them feel overworked and overwhelmed sometimes. But the side jobs are still done by their choice.

kevinpate
10-14-2009, 12:16 PM
I'm not anti-union, and I'm not most assuredly anti civil servant (having served our state from 89-06).

However, some comments throughout recent threads, and here, strike me as thinking some of the union membership might wanna begin wondering if their reps actually have their best interests in mind.

weird strategy, at least to me.

andy157
10-14-2009, 02:33 PM
I'm not anti-union, and I'm not most assuredly anti civil servant (having served our state from 89-06).

However, some comments throughout recent threads, and here, strike me as thinking some of the union membership might wanna begin wondering if their reps actually have their best interests in mind.

weird strategy, at least to me.

Kevinpate, there is no need whatsoever for the Union membership to begin to wonder if their Union Reps have their(the members) best interest in mind. Why? Because, the Maps 3 opposition position was not an arbitrary decsion made by Union leadership and forced upon the members. In fact, it was just the opposite.

The opposition to Maps 3 by the leadership of the Union is the result of an abolute mandate from the supream authority of the Union, the members. The members where assembled, given their options along with the pros and cons to each of those options, given the opportunity to speak for or against those options. Then, using their right to a Democratic process voted unanimously to oppose Maps 3.

kevinpate
10-14-2009, 03:00 PM
So, after rallying folks together and hashing it out, the one single best available strategy was decided, without dissent, to be go forth and vocally oppose the extension of a temporary sales tax?

Ok, let's say your folks are wildly successful, stunning everyone.

Let's say supporters take to the streets, the malls, blogs, broadcast venues and church steps and proclaim
NO GROWTH UNTIL WE HAVE MORE COPS AND FIREFIGHTERS!
HEY HEY, HO HO, PROGRESS HAS GOT TO GO!
HEY HEY, HO HO, PROGRESS HAS GOT TO GO!

WHATTA WE WANT?
MORE COPS AND FIREFIGHTERS!
WHEN WE WANT THEM?
NOW!

HEY HEY, HO HO, PROGRESS HAS GOT TO GO!
HEY HEY, HO HO, PROGRESS HAS GOT TO GO!

Let's say it catches on so fast, so huge that teabaggers begin to hurl themselves off bridges in envy and every last Ogle says "wow, well played!"

Let's say straw polls show a resounding 68% plan to vote down MAPs3 and do so specifically because they heard your call for bodies before growth.

Then what?

I'm not agin ya.
I'm not a MAPs3 cheerleader, though I think some of it is rather awesome.

I am curious by nature though, and the present approach is, to me anyways, more than a wee bit curious.

Edumacate me. Some folks swear it is possible to do. Others, they ain't so sure.

David
10-14-2009, 03:42 PM
Kevinpate, there is no need whatsoever for the Union membership to begin to wonder if their Union Reps have their(the members) best interest in mind. Why? Because, the Maps 3 opposition position was not an arbitrary decsion made by Union leadership and forced upon the members. In fact, it was just the opposite.

The opposition to Maps 3 by the leadership of the Union is the result of an abolute mandate from the supream authority of the Union, the members. The members where assembled, given their options along with the pros and cons to each of those options, given the opportunity to speak for or against those options. Then, using their right to a Democratic process voted unanimously to oppose Maps 3.

Who prompted the assembly to happen in the first place?

Also, I have a very hard time believing you that it was a unanimous decision. Did anyone abstain from voting?

Midtowner
10-14-2009, 03:57 PM
Who prompted the assembly to happen in the first place?

Also, I have a very hard time believing you that it was a unanimous decision. Did anyone abstain from voting?

I don't have a hard time believing this was unanimous. These aren't just unions, these are brotherhoods. If you've ever been a part of something like that, you'd know that unanimous votes, particularly if they are cast out in the open, are almost always unanimous.

That doesn't mean they're correct or based on anything approaching fact.

That doesn't mean a newer fire truck with a better ride isn't going to get to a victim any faster than what we have now.

I'll freely admit that we probably have some deficiencies in our emergency services and we need new stuff. I don't think that's what the issue is here. I think it's that the unions want for their workers what just about everyone else in the country doesn't get -- raises.

David
10-14-2009, 04:13 PM
I don't have a hard time believing this was unanimous. These aren't just unions, these are brotherhoods. If you've ever been a part of something like that, you'd know that unanimous votes, particularly if they are cast out in the open, are almost always unanimous.

That doesn't mean they're correct or based on anything approaching fact.

That doesn't mean a newer fire truck with a better ride isn't going to get to a victim any faster than what we have now.

I'll freely admit that we probably have some deficiencies in our emergency services and we need new stuff. I don't think that's what the issue is here. I think it's that the unions want for their workers what just about everyone else in the country doesn't get -- raises.

Oh, I wasn't thinking about the fact that it was probably an open vote. Not exactly a supportive environment for dissenting opinions in that case.

lump9816
10-14-2009, 04:26 PM
To Mid and others, I'm new to this board as I've pretty much been a lurker reading for quite some time now. But to all of you who are insinuating that this problem stems about a raise, you are wrong. This is about the city bargaining in bad faith. And not just with firefighters, but the two other city workers unions as well. The city basically got their heads handed to them in arbitration with the firefighters union, thus the dok front page production claiming this is all about money. Repeatedly, all the unions stated they would forego raises if the city would at least talk about staffing issues that are very real. Since the inception of the first maps project through the last, the city has asked all of the unions to back them and they did. After all, it would benefit the members, but so far they've seen their numbers sink. There are less personnel and a greatly increased workload. The unions want this issue addressed and the city's leaders won't, period. I understand we are in tough economic times, and I'm certain that the IAFF Local 157, the FOP and the AFSCME leaders know it. But since roughly 1995 they have been asked to do mor with less, after nearly 15 years it gets frustrating. This has nothing to do with pay or raises, this is an ongoing problem that has finally reached its boiling point.

andy157
10-14-2009, 05:37 PM
So, after rallying folks together and hashing it out, the one single best available strategy was decided, without dissent, to be go forth and vocally oppose the extension of a temporary sales tax?

Ok, let's say your folks are wildly successful, stunning everyone.

Let's say supporters take to the streets, the malls, blogs, broadcast venues and church steps and proclaim
NO GROWTH UNTIL WE HAVE MORE COPS AND FIREFIGHTERS!
HEY HEY, HO HO, PROGRESS HAS GOT TO GO!
HEY HEY, HO HO, PROGRESS HAS GOT TO GO!

WHATTA WE WANT?
MORE COPS AND FIREFIGHTERS!
WHEN WE WANT THEM?
NOW!

HEY HEY, HO HO, PROGRESS HAS GOT TO GO!
HEY HEY, HO HO, PROGRESS HAS GOT TO GO!

Let's say it catches on so fast, so huge that teabaggers begin to hurl themselves off bridges in envy and every last Ogle says "wow, well played!"

Let's say straw polls show a resounding 68% plan to vote down MAPs3 and do so specifically because they heard your call for bodies before growth.

Then what?

I'm not agin ya.
I'm not a MAPs3 cheerleader, though I think some of it is rather awesome.

I am curious by nature though, and the present approach is, to me anyways, more than a wee bit curious.

Edumacate me. Some folks swear it is possible to do. Others, they ain't so sure.To answere you first question. Yes

andy157
10-14-2009, 05:44 PM
Who prompted the assembly to happen in the first place?

Also, I have a very hard time believing you that it was a unanimous decision. Did anyone abstain from voting?The members, it's called a regular monthly Union meeting. Sorry you find that so hard to believe. No, but they had the right to abstain, as well as the right to vote no.

andy157
10-14-2009, 05:47 PM
I don't have a hard time believing this was unanimous. These aren't just unions, these are brotherhoods. If you've ever been a part of something like that, you'd know that unanimous votes, particularly if they are cast out in the open, are almost always unanimous.

That doesn't mean they're correct or based on anything approaching fact.

That doesn't mean a newer fire truck with a better ride isn't going to get to a victim any faster than what we have now.

I'll freely admit that we probably have some deficiencies in our emergency services and we need new stuff. I don't think that's what the issue is here. I think it's that the unions want for their workers what just about everyone else in the country doesn't get -- raises.See my other post it's not about STUFF or a RAISE

Jim F.
10-14-2009, 06:05 PM
Andy.... you expect the counsel to allow the union to have input into staffing decisions? Doesn't happen at any job I ever heard of. you know the councel would never allow that. Face it, it's about the money. The union wants a raise. they would never get input into the staffing numbers.

andy157
10-14-2009, 06:11 PM
Doesn't take rocket science to figure out it's Andy Summers with IAFF local 157. Why the need for such secrecy? His screenname obviously says who he is. Nothing secret about it. And Andy is a great guy....respect him a lot. We just differ in our opinions.

Simply put, opposing MAPS 3 does nothing to benefit the fire dept. They're simply using MAPS 3 as a leveraging tool to try to get their pay increased. I don't know too many govt jobs right now that are increasing salaries or are hiring. I work as a physician for the VA, and we're on a hiring freeze and experiencing pay cuts. So, why should the OKCFD be any different? Face it, the economy sucks, and deal with it. If anything the MAPS programs have kept our city from losing jobs by keeping major employers like Devon from leaving. It's a good investment.Patrick, I'm sorry but your deduction caused me to LOL, Andy Summers will think it funny as well. I mean no disrespect, but you may want to think about re-taking rocket science 101, or a least get some remedial training. Nevertheless, my name is Mike Anderson, there the cat is out of the bag, and if your the Patrick I think you are, we have met. Did I meet with you and Keith S. a few years back? Now that I've outed myself I won't be able to give Fire121 a hard time. Sorry G.H. I still LYLAB

smooth
10-14-2009, 06:53 PM
"That doesn't mean a newer fire truck with a better ride isn't going to get to a victim any faster than what we have now."

Actually, it will. The older equipment has been known to break down on the way to an incident. Not often, however, it happens. They even break down before they make it out of the station. So, replacing them with high quality equipment will make it faster. Why? It does't break down.:kicking:

kevinpate
10-14-2009, 07:00 PM
To answere you first question. Yes

Ok, but in light of that, the equally if not more intriquing Q comes afterwards, should the planned opposition knock MAPs3 down.

I truly am curious about the 'Then what?' or I wouldn't have asked.

soonerguru
10-14-2009, 08:13 PM
I don't have a hard time believing this was unanimous. These aren't just unions, these are brotherhoods. If you've ever been a part of something like that, you'd know that unanimous votes, particularly if they are cast out in the open, are almost always unanimous.

That doesn't mean they're correct or based on anything approaching fact.

That doesn't mean a newer fire truck with a better ride isn't going to get to a victim any faster than what we have now.

I'll freely admit that we probably have some deficiencies in our emergency services and we need new stuff. I don't think that's what the issue is here. I think it's that the unions want for their workers what just about everyone else in the country doesn't get -- raises.

Midtowner. I think the problem is these people are idiots. First of all, they come on this board and suddenly start attacking long-time posters and making ridiculous suggestions about them.

They are so clueless they don't realize that the people who post here would be the most likely to support their initiatives.

Then, they think by holding MAPS hostage they're going to win converts.

Here's what I think will actually happen:

They will trash MAPS and make this a very personal and public, nasty campaign.

Then, MAPS will still pass by a sliver of the vote.

Then, when these blowhards come back to us for help we'll tell them where they can put it.

iron76hd
10-14-2009, 08:48 PM
I guess I'm the only one that reads other posts. I read each post and laugh because you ask a question that's been answered.

We aren't so confident as to think that just our deciding not to support MAPS3 will keep it from passing. In not supporting it, we will no longer hide the short staffing problems our city has as a whole. We WILL make every effort to make sure that at least citizens know what is really going on within each part of their city services.

The citizens will untimately make the decision now. You will decide what's most important to you and your family. I like how some of you supporting MAPS3 no matter what like to speak for the rest of the city.

The Mayor will no longer get us to just smile and tell citizens everything is GREAT like we have for years. We feel an obligation to at least inform them of the things this city's employees NEED to meet their obligations to Police, provide Fire Protection and take care of this city.

That's it. The rest is up to them. Many of you are a SUPPORT MAPS3 AT ANY COST person. I can see that. You've not even commented on any FACTS about staffing you've been given. The FACT about police staffing or fire staffing or city worker staffing. If you don't read about any of it. Comment on it. or listen to any interviews about it. then news flash. YOU DON"T CARE ABOUT IT. Just say it!!! It's not important to you. Unless the Mayor tells you their's a problem you won't believe it!! WOW!! Be MEN think for yourself it's ok. The study the MAYOR demanded is crap. All 3000 plus city employee's are full of it. The Mayor knows best. LOL...

You've come back with the same lame post. "You just want raises!!! Your childish. You want raises!! Your holding the city hostage. What do you have to gain by not supporting MAPS? Your just mad because you're not getting raises."

And the answers have been given over and over.

It's not PAY that's an easy excuse. In fact from what I understand the Fireman have also told the Mayor and City Manager openly that they will give back their raises they won through arbitration to add additional Fireman. READ IT...Give back their raises. Are you reading????:beaten_fi

My favorite is the guy that eludes to Officers working traffic or lord forbid...DUI checkpoints. Guess none of that's important. What an idiot..Forget POLICE.:poke:

Forget Fireman. What about the rest of this city's employee's. Parks, Streets...if they say they need additonal staff are we to think they are not important??? Are we not to listen to their concerns?

Just try to listen to the FACTS about staffing. If it's bull to you. Then that's your choice. We just want citizens to know what's going on for the first time in years.

IF MAPS3 doesn't pass then the people have spoken. RIGHT? Then and maybe only then the counsel will attempt to address other concerns. Maybe not. But saying nothing and just smiling hasn't gotten them anywhere either. If you have a better way to reach the Mayor and city manager besides sitting down and shutting up...please let them know....I'm waiting!!!
I'm waiting!!!

Soonerguru...I'm sorry i didn't know being a long time poster gave you some sort of special respect. I thought all of the posts were on the subject for the most part.

I didn't know having an opinion that differs from yours made people Blowhards and Idiots.

Predictions.

All of the pretty pictures in the world. All of the scenes of a grand park with picnics and archs. All of the fancy commercials that will be run by private interest groups, like Chesapeake, Devon or the Mayor won't matter. All of the articles that will be run by the Daily Oklahoman (who obviously supports MAPS3) trashing Police and Fire. All of these should be starting anyday. ALL of that won't MATTER......

IF...IF the regular citizens that actually care about having adequate Police Protection, Fire Protection, and GOOD City Services know the TRUTH about our city's state.

Regular citizens are all over the city and in the Majority (thank god). You know regular citizens. Working folks. The ones that work so much they don't have time to have picnics with their family in a fancy MAPS3 park. They ones that actually have to save to afford to take their family to the $7 a ticket fair that MAPS3 want's to improve. The ones that look across the street from their home and see a city park that hasn't been updated in 20 or 30 years. The folks that unfortunately have to call the Police regularly and expect and deserve good service. The folks that have the drive-by's on their street. You know the ones YOU only see on the news. The folks that don't live in a gated community or have PRIVATE security in their neighborhood.

The folks that do care about an additional ONE CENT tax. Those regular folks. If they know the TRUTH about what's really going on. and get out and VOTE......then

MAPS3 won't be a reality. It won't even be close. Not by a longshot.

okclee
10-14-2009, 08:48 PM
I would like to see more Okc Police actually live in the central urban areas that they work in. Instead of living out on the far edges of the city, such as near Moore and Edmond.

iron76hd
10-14-2009, 09:31 PM
I would like to see more Okc Police actually live in the central urban areas that they work in. Instead of living out on the far edges of the city, such as near Moore and Edmond.

I have several stories of how living in these areas almost turned into career ending problems for officers. I could tell you the stories about how they weren't supported when they tried to clean up their particular neighborhood. You wouldn't believe it. I promise. If they had the full support of their department and the city, they could easily help clean up alot of those places. It sounds crazy. I agree with you though. I also have to think most decide to live where they believe the best schools are for their children. My guess only. Or assume they live in some of the areas they do for the same reasons our city leaders and most influential people don't live in those same urban areas.

David
10-14-2009, 09:37 PM
The members, it's called a regular monthly Union meeting. Sorry you find that so hard to believe. No, but they had the right to abstain, as well as the right to vote no.

So, was it an open vote, or a secret ballot?

Midtowner
10-14-2009, 09:39 PM
Midtowner. I think the problem is these people are idiots. First of all, they come on this board and suddenly start attacking long-time posters and making ridiculous suggestions about them.

They are so clueless they don't realize that the people who post here would be the most likely to support their initiatives.

Then, they think by holding MAPS hostage they're going to win converts.

Here's what I think will actually happen:

They will trash MAPS and make this a very personal and public, nasty campaign.

Then, MAPS will still pass by a sliver of the vote.

Then, when these blowhards come back to us for help we'll tell them where they can put it.

They're entitled to their opinions. I've learned that OKCTalk is probably OKC's premiere forum for folks from all different walks of life to exchange ideas as equals. I'm by no means an expert on emergency services. What I see is that at current funding levels, somehow, they do a hell of a good job.

I know OCPD and OCFD still attract some of the best and brightest applicants for their academies. I know that for the most part they deliver a high level of service.

My understanding thus far is that this entire issue is about staffing and vacations. Pay is probably a secondary issue. I'm just asking the same questions of our municipal employees that I'd ask from anyone who was trying to take my money in exchange for services -- can they promise me that with 40 officers focusing on gang crimes instead of 12, that there'd be a highly significant difference in gang activity? If we had remodeled and rebuilt fire stations, would that mean that the trucks would get where they needed to go faster? That said, these issues seem to be completely irrelevant in the MAPS context for reasons above. MAPS is not and never will be an adequate funding mechanism for staffing. The purpose of MAPS is capital improvements to improve the economy. Arguably, this is the very solution which our municipal employees are looking for because as we know MAPS = increased municipal revenue.

They all do a hell of a good job and I'm thankful. I know as much as we trash these guys, our trash will continue to be picked up at the curb and the police and fire departments will continue to lose brave men defending folks like us.

I just think their energy is misspent here. They are organized. Heck.. if they wanted to, they have the manpower to pack the city council with ex police and firemen. In fact, in its current state, if they supported MAPS, then packed the Council with their guys, they could have $777 million to spend on police and fire department needs only. (kidding sort of)

On a serious note, I'm all about seeing a constructive discussion happen here without all the name calling. I know for a fact that the city's political and opinion leaders do read these threads. As many of you know, despite the fact I seem like a MAPS cheerleader, I'm against the current proposal due to the wishy-washy ballot language, but that's another topic entirely.

Mikemarsh51
10-14-2009, 10:19 PM
Let me jump in here with some facts. Next month I will have 25 years with the OCFD. I was hired with Andy157 and it's not Andy Summers. Prior to March of 1989 we could not get a sales tax to help Public safety. 3 Firefighters were killed and the good folks of this city saw that we had a need. When the tax was passed to add 5 stations and 200 extra Firefighters we had 748 personnel. After the stations were added and the people were hired the City began to let the numbers fall as far as they were concerned they could let the number of personnel fall back to 748. Local 157 had to take the City to District court to get an injunction to keep the number at 948.

That number has been the benchmark we work off of. As a side note the City has said they were willing to challenge us on the number at any time. Why would they be willing to fight to drop the number of personnel. The responses are double of what they were 10 years ago. The population is about 100,000 higher than when the 1989 sales tax. Just look around and think about how much we have grown in 20 years. We have 26 Advanced Life Support, Paramedic Engines. We have 9 more to complete the program. The city has not adjusted for that, because each Engine goes from 3 to 4 personnel minimum. The have not added 26 people x 3 shifts.

The industry standard is 10 years for frontline equipment and 20 years as back up. We have done reasonably well on keeping up with this. The 14 year old Engine I ride is due to be replaced this week. That rig will go to the Northside to replace an Engine that is unusable. We are getting our Ladders that we bought in 1991 replaced now 3 of the 4 are upgraded and in service. We do have a 1985 Ladder that is a backup, it will barely do 50 MPH and is the second oldest piece of equipment besides the 1910 parade Engine.

Our gripe has nothing to do with anything other than let's address the cities needs before we address the want's. If you want to discuss money, we operate on wages like this, we and the City agree on 10 similar cities of like size and like sized departments. We average the salaries of the ten and we shoot for 100% of the average. I don't believe we have ever been at 100%, usually around 95-98%.

Ask me anything and I will tell you what I know.

iron76hd
10-14-2009, 10:30 PM
They all do a hell of a good job and I'm thankful. I know as much as we trash these guys, our trash will continue to be picked up at the curb and the police and fire departments will continue to lose brave men defending folks like us.



Thank you for keeping us on point. And yes sir no matter what. Most of our Policeman and Fireman believe it's their calling and more than just a job. So make no mistake. No matter what. If a citizen in this city calls....to quell a disturbance of 200 or 20,000 and their are only two available officers to respond ...they'll go...just the two...no questions asked. Or a Fire that requires 4 trucks but they only have enough men or women to fill two...they'll go...no questions asked..

What they'd like to prevent if possible is losing one Policeman or Fireman because of unsafe staffing numbers. Or more importantly losing one citizen...for the same reason...

If speaking out falls on deaf ears...then so be it...we can say we tried...but saying nothing...hasn't worked thus far...

Urban Pioneer
10-14-2009, 10:51 PM
I heard this morning that the same study that these workers spout about also has analysis that they can do more with less if their resources are distributed appropriately. I challenge you Ironman, post the ENTIRE study without cut and paste and let this forum decide for themselves.

Also, the convention center is suppossed to be self supporting with internal budgeting to hire the appropriate level of emergency workers. The park is an ACTIVE park with 365 programming. It too will generate some of its own income and be staffed appropriately. The new streetcar system will be staffed with operators in a secure cab with radios and camera monitoring. It does not require transit police. We may even want to put our "Ambassadors" on board.

This "proportianate staffing" argument is premature and a scare tatic to make emergency workers think they will be stretched to cover more infrastructure and gain public sympathy. Find a stronger argument. The reason why additional people have nit been hired is due to good management and new technology such as computers and a 1st class communication system. If things were that stretched and bad the crime statistics would reflect it.

Your leadership has you worried and convinced that holding this public vote hostage will somehow get the City Manager to give you what you want. It will not work.

Urban Pioneer
10-14-2009, 10:52 PM
I heard this morning that the same study that these workers spout about also has analysis that they can do more with less if their resources are distributed appropriately. I challenge you Ironman, post the ENTIRE study without cut and paste and let this forum decide for themselves.

Also, the convention center is suppossed to be self supporting with internal budgeting to hire the appropriate level of emergency workers. The park is an ACTIVE park with 365 programming. It too will generate some of its own income and be staffed appropriately. The new streetcar system will be staffed with operators in a secure cab with radios and camera monitoring. It does not require transit police. We may even want to put our "Ambassadors" on board.

This "proportianate staffing" argument is premature and a scare tatic to make emergency workers think they will be stretched to cover more infrastructure and gain public sympathy. Find a stronger argument. The reason why additional people have nit been hired is due to good management and new technology such as computers and a 1st class communication system. If things were that stretched and bad the crime statistics would reflect it.

Your leadership has you worried and convinced that holding this public vote hostage will somehow get the City Manager to give you what you want. It will not work.

Midtowner
10-14-2009, 10:55 PM
Iron, I also thank you for your service to this city. My understanding thus far (and as promised, I have not checked the statute I've been directed to, nor the case I was told about) is that the actual complaint is about paid vacation time. Is that the case? Or is it something else? I think if your two unions are to make a point to the public, you need to get a little more specific. With all due respect, myself and most other citizens don't know a dang thing about what constitutes unsafe staffing numbers.

Are unsafely staffed fire crews common? If so, why? What jobs are missing? What is needed to fix this? I'm someone who probably is better informed than your average person and I have no clue what specifically your issues are and how they are relevant to MAPS.

Pretend I'm on the city council. What is it (and be as specific as possible) that needs to change and most importantly, how do we pay for it?

oneforone
10-15-2009, 12:53 AM
I moved to Midwest City about a year and a half ago and I have been amazed at the level of service the emergency responders provide. They are able to do this for one reason. Public Safety is a top priority.

I think it is time for Oklahoma City to do the same thing. The city of Oklahoma City funds the Zoo with a permenant sales tax so why don't they do the same with public safety.

Larry OKC
10-15-2009, 02:31 AM
... Also, the convention center is suppossed to be self supporting with internal budgeting to hire the appropriate level of emergency workers. The park is an ACTIVE park with 365 programming. It too will generate some of its own income and be staffed appropriately. The new streetcar system will be staffed with operators in a secure cab with radios and camera monitoring. It does not require transit police. We may even want to put our "Ambassadors" on board. ...

Urban Pioneer,

Not saying any of that isn't true (or will be true when finished) but what are you basing that on? The projects themselves aren't even listed or referenced in any way (read the Ballot and the Ordinance). If the projects aren't even mentioned, where is the level of detail (staffing) coming from? Thanks!

Larry OKC
10-15-2009, 02:50 AM
... The city of Oklahoma City funds the Zoo with a permenant sales tax so why don't they do the same with public safety.

City of Oklahoma City | Public Information & Marketing (http://www.okc.gov/maps3/QA.html)

You are correct, there is a permanent tax for the Zoo (1/8th of a cent), but there is also a “public safety (fire and police)” that get 3/4 of a cent “The public safety portion of the Oklahoma City sales tax actually covers only a small part of the money that is ultimately spent on those functions. The rest comes from the general fund.” If not mistaken the dedicated 3/4 of a cent is for equipment (salaries come form the City’s general fund budget).

Larry OKC
10-15-2009, 02:59 AM
... I will say this again, the Firefighters didn’t, and don’t want a raise. Now I don’t know what else I can say to make that any more clear.

The Mayor is telling you this has nothing more to do than with the fact that the Firefighters want a raise. That is not true, that is where the lie is. Again, I don’t know how to make that explaination any more clear. ...

Hi Andy157,

Not taking either side on this one...as I posted earlier (in other thread where you're post was), a recent article in the Oklahoman that had this to say from the “Overtime a Hot Issue” linked pic at:

NewsOK (http://newsok.com/burningthroughmoney)

Last month, the city council and the fire union each rejected the other’s final offer for a new contract. The UNION WANTS RAISES and new hires the city says it can’t afford.

Are you saying the article is incorrect?

Thanks in advance!

Patrick
10-15-2009, 04:57 AM
The line has been drawn because Police, Fire, and City Services don't think they can support a MAPS3.

Ummmmm.....tell the truth there...the union leaders don't think they can support a MAPS 3. I know many city employees, firefighters, and police officers that are supporting MAPS 3.


They can't in vote for something when they truely know the state of our city services.

I could use a similar excuse. I'm simply voting down more state funding for education because I'm upset that the Crisis Center, where I moonlight, needs updating and more nurses. The two don't even relate. You're holding one hostage because you're upset about another issue. Similar to the folks on the NE side of town voting down the NBA tax because Porter was fired. Same thing about holding back progress in OKC because law enforcement and the firefighter's union has their panties all in a wad about their pay and manpower.


I invite anyone who wants to listen to a few of the interviews done with representatives from Police and Fire to google "okc issues podcast". Their are some interesting facts that have been given in the interviews.

Most people willing to take the time to make those podcasts already have an agenda from the beginning.


There is also a study that was done by an independent company. A study called for and supported by counsel. The "Berkshire Study" will be made available to Mark Shannon from 1000am in the next couple of days.

I think that's your problem.....you think Mark Shannon is credible!


This is a study that states our Police Department is short at least 200 officers to address the CURRENT city. A study that states our current Gang Unit of 12 should be about 40 to combat our CURRENT gang problem. A study that all can read. During the meeting in which the representatives were presenting to the Police Chief, Mayor and Counsel, the Mayor coundn't or didn't want to listen and left early never to return.

So, the Crisis Center is understaffed. We need more docs and nurses. Does that mean I should vote down, say, improvements in state education, just because I'm upset with the fact that our state's mental health dept. doesn't have enough manpower? Shoot, who doesn't have a manpower problem right now?


They are not bargaining. Begging for city leaders to listen to our understaffing levels and address those before we move on MAPS3 that's it.

The unions' requests are completely out of line. They're wanting pay increases and increase in manpower while every other municipal dept is cutting back. Hmmm....makes a lot of sense to me.....every union has an agenda, and they're not always reasonable. Unions aren't always all they're cracked up to be. One of the reasons the US automakers had to be bailed out is because of the UAW and their ridiculous requests, claims, and management.


They didn't want to have to air out dirty laundry. They didn't want to have to explain how the Mayor and Counsel have ignored staffing levels in EVERY part of City Services. City Employee's have pride in their city and it's leaders. It's a last resort to not support something they tell our citizens is great for them, but now it's become necessary.

Blah, blah, blah. Whine, cry. City isn't giving me what I want, so I'm going to take it out on the entire city and make everyone suffer and live in a crummy city with poor quality of life.



Mark Shannon at 1000am from 5-7 pm has at least let SOME of the facts out.

Shannon is about as credible as OJ Simpson.

OKCGUY3
10-15-2009, 11:33 AM
Facts:
1.OKC police and fire have been asked to cut this years budget 2% - proposals will include lay offs, not filling vacant positions = less police and firefighters NOW.
2. There are 50 less firefighters now than there were in 1999.
3. Firefighters were awarded a raise by arbitrator this year and have offered to exchange that raise for fixing staffing issues. (pretend you scheduled a day off with your child 4-6 months in advance and were told it was approved only to be told a week before the big day that it is now cancelled. Yes 4-6 months in advance is almost routine if they want a day off scheduled.)
4. TWO fire stations have been CLOSED due to building damage. One has been closed over a year and NO repairs have begun. The other has been closed a few months and it is not going to be repaired because it was scheduled to be replaced in the year 2000! No construction has begun to replace it. That means there are citizens waiting longer for service they use to be able to rely on within two minutes of having an emergency.
5. Have you waited on a police officer lately. Car wreck yesterday took over an hour and a half for an AVAILABLE police officer.
6. Maps projects have been a great thing for our city.
7. Some Maps projects that were approved have not been completed within budget or at all for that fact. ( school upgrades )
8. 3/4 cent sales tax in 1989 required 200 additional firefighters to protect the city. The fire department has had to fight to try and keep that number but today there are not 200 more firefighters on the street than there were in 1989.
9. Swimming pools and parks that are in the city now are not being kept up and open due to cuts. Yet we want to open a bigger park to maintain with less people.
10. There are no current public plans to increase firefighter, police, or public works staffing. If I am wrong on this, tell me where it is. ( actually a reduction plan is in place )

I think we all want a great city that is amazing and interesting. Is it so hard to believe that something as great as MAPS 3, maybe should wait until the other problems in the city are addressed first. I see the Mayor on TV hyping MAPS 3 and putting down the people who keep this city running. However, I do not see him on the streets saying "fix these fire stations, Fix these police cars, protect our citizens faster and better than we are doing now, I demand the best protection and service for my citizens! How can I keep them safer and provide cleaner streets and neighborhoods than we currently have? " On the contrary, what I am hearing is - give our workers more to do, forget the current problems with safety, streets, service, etc... we will worry about that later.
We need to concentrate on being a big league city. (at least in the appearance of those who don't know any better)

Patrick
10-15-2009, 11:54 AM
Did some research and here are some facts. These facts are from ICMA studies. I just don't see where we're understaffed compared to other cities. The majority of the top 25 cities have far fewer firefighters per population than we do. ICMA studies show that the national average ratio of # of firefighters per 1,000 population is 1.61. Oklahoma City is higher than the national average, at 1.9.

Here's a review of the list:

Ratio of # of firefighters per 1,000 members of the population:

Oklahoma City: 1.9

Norman: 1.14

Edmond: 1.53

Midwest City: 1.74

Moore: 1.32

Jacksonville: 1.5

Chicago: 1.784

Houston: 1.798

San Francisco: 2.157

Seattle: 1.824

Detroit: 1.613

Nashville: 1.928

Boston: 3.390

Philadelphia: 1.597

Phoenix: 1.064

Indianapolis: 1.275

Dallas: 1.417

Milwaukee: 1.817

Austin: 1.452

New York: 1.737

San Antonio: 1.177

San Diego: 0.757

Ft. Worth: 1.251

San Jose: 0.806

Los Angeles: 0.937

Charlotte: 1.437

El Paso: 1.474

Patrick
10-15-2009, 12:30 PM
Data from the US Dept. of Justice:

Police Depts.

# of sworn police officers per 1,000 population:

National average (swayed by high crime cities like NYC, Newark, Detroit, and Chicago): 2.1

OKC: 2.0

Tulsa: 2.05

Portland: 1.9

Indianapolis: 1.3

Nashville: 2.2

Austin: 1.7

Los Angeles: 2.5

Miami: 1.3

Dallas: 2.4

Phoenix: 2.0

Las Vegas: 1.6

San Diego: 1.7

San Antonio: 1.6

Denver: 2.7

Seattle: 2.2

San Jose: 1.6

Steve
10-15-2009, 12:38 PM
Questions: Is the population to firefighter ratio really the best comparison? I've always wondered about this. The housing stock in Oklahoma City, in general, consists mostly of homes built with modern codes, whereas there are a lot mroe older homes prone to catching fire in a city like Detroit... Bryan Dean and John Estus did a great expose you can find online that shows how OKC firefighters of today are facing far less risk than their predecessors.... I've talked about this and had good discussions in the past with Andy, and I understand that firefighters are busier because they are co-responding to medical calls. That, of course, begs the question whether firefighters should be responding or whether it should be left to ambulances...

westsidesooner
10-15-2009, 12:41 PM
Thanks for the stats Patrick. Are there any that provide that info in regards to police and firemen/women per sq mile of city?