BY STEVE LACKMEYER
Published: September 18, 2009

The summer of 2007 was brutal for downtown Tulsa when the rebuilding of several major streets created a drought for merchants. It prompted the city’s mayor to send an e-mail to about 25,000 workers pleading with them to frequent their neighborhood restaurants.

An even bigger $141.5 million makeover is in the works for downtown Oklahoma City — one that designers say will span 36 blocks and be one of the largest downtown street programs in the country.

"It’s massive,” Planning Director Russell Claus said. "Tulsa did some streetscaping like this, but not to this degree. It’s essentially a complete transformation of the public realm.”

See Steve's full article at:

NewsOK (http://newsok.com/major-downtown-facelift-in-works-for-oklahoma-city/article/3402000?custom_click=lead_story_title)

Wow, that's 2 articles from Steve on this in the last 2-3 weeks. Didn't see him at the Skirvin last night at the MTP meeting, hopefully he'll do an article on it soon as well.

Metro, my wife was sick last night so I had to stay home with the kids. Otherwise, I would have been at the meeting.

No worries Steve, we were surprised not to see you, but figured it was probably family if you weren't there (understandibly so).

I noticed in the Tulsa World article about facelift is in there and the Tulsa bashers are out in force. Lots of unflattering remarks such as OKC is home to low class hicks, OKC needs a tummy tuck, OKC can go to H**L. Several posters even state they lived in OKC for decades and would never move back there because it is a ugly, dirty city. You people think I bash OKC, by this is quite seething. Do you think it is based on jealousy or could it be true?? Does not look good for OKC from outsider's point of view. Again, I am a native of OKC so I am not an outsider even though I no longer reside there.Either way, I am happy that OKC is making major strides in improving the city. OKC seems to be more forward thinking for the future.

coming from posters at TW, it's pretty much just par for the course. If it was coming hot and heavy from an area w/o known sibling issues, that would be different.

Wow the tulsaworld comments are really sad, it is like a child crying out for attention.

My suggestion: anyone from OKC who logs on should simply acknowledge our city can always do better and compliment them on the reopening of the Mayo Hotel. Kill 'em with kindness.

I noticed in the Tulsa World article about facelift is in there and the Tulsa bashers are out in force. Lots of unflattering remarks such as OKC is home to low class hicks, OKC needs a tummy tuck, OKC can go to H**L. Several posters even state they lived in OKC for decades and would never move back there because it is a ugly, dirty city. You people think I bash OKC, by this is quite seething. Do you think it is based on jealousy or could it be true?? Does not look good for OKC from outsider's point of view. Again, I am a native of OKC so I am not an outsider even though I no longer reside there.Either way, I am happy that OKC is making major strides in improving the city. OKC seems to be more forward thinking for the future.

Do you ahev the link for the TW article?

Tulsa World: Major downtown facelift in works for Oklahoma City (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=12&articleid=20090918_12_0_OKLAHO429343)

The planners presentations on these projects are now at OKC Central - Information about Oklahoma City, Bricktown and beyond (http://www.okccentral.com)

The planners presentations on these projects are now at OKC Central - Information about Oklahoma City, Bricktown and beyond (http://www.okccentral.com)

Appears to be pretty impressive.

It is jealousy, pure and simple. That, and people who comment on articles in the Tulsa World seem to be very angry and unbalanced.

I should add, they must have many cousins in OKC, because the comments after articles in the Oklahoman are frightening and depressing.

I have pretty much learned to ignore comments on articles on any news website as they tend to bring out the worst in anonymous comments. I read the articles and skip the comments. The individual blogs like Steve's tend to have a more focused audience and doesn't seem to attract the general riff-raff that the main articles generate.

bluedogok, I agree with you wholeheartedly. That's why I'm not always happy when a particular blog topic gets teased on NewsOK. I'm very, very blessed to have a great group of readers at OKC Central (many of them are the same ones who make this the city's premier online community forum).

I have pretty much learned to ignore comments on articles on any news website as they tend to bring out the worst in anonymous comments. I read the articles and skip the comments. The individual blogs like Steve's tend to have a more focused audience and doesn't seem to attract the general riff-raff that the main articles generate.

You're right, but does "general riff-raff" mean ordinary, working Joe citizens? Or are they just a loud and angry fringe?

It is weird to read pages and pages of often racist, angry rants after rather innocuous news items. And I'm guessing more than a few of the angry ranters have immediate access to firearms. Kinda creepy.

There is a core group on almost every newspaper site that seems to provide nothing reasonable in commentary and are there merely to incite and flame, they are worthless flame warriors. I think the "Ordinary Joe's" tend to not post ccomments as much judging by the style of most comments.

Here's a direct link to the plans:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/content.newsok.com/documents/20090824%20DEVON-IMPLEMENTATION-MTG-LOW-OPT.pdf

This OKC-Tulsa thing has got to be the most stupid juvenile rivalry of any two cities. Most grown up places do not engage in this my city is better than your city stupidity. Sad

This OKC-Tulsa thing has got to be the most stupid juvenile rivalry of any two cities. Most grown up places do not engage in this my city is better than your city stupidity. Sad
Wanna bet, read any city forum and it is the same crap over and over by some people in every city. We have our San Antonio-Austin, Fort Worth-Dallas, Houston-Dallas ones down here, then you have St. Paul-Minneapolis, Milwaukee-Chicago, St. Louis-Chicago, Boston-New York, Baltimore-DC, Oakland-San Francisco, Portland-Seattle, etc. Cities much older than Oklahoma City or Tulsa have partaken in these ridiculous spats forever. It seems to be more common than most would think, "grown-up" has nothing to do with the people living there.

well, definitely not with the posters, whether they live there or not, ala Paul of Yukon and Cletus of Mayberry, or so they note, two of the more juvi banters at newsok.

Bastions of intelligent discussion you're mentioning there Kevin.

This OKC-Tulsa thing has got to be the most stupid juvenile rivalry of any two cities. Most grown up places do not engage in this my city is better than your city stupidity. Sad

Agree. But it's fairly one-sided. It's the Tulsans who seem to be the bitter siblings.

This OKC-Tulsa thing has got to be the most stupid juvenile rivalry of any two cities. Most grown up places do not engage in this my city is better than your city stupidity. Sad

I agree, having said that, I now live in Tulsa and I miss OKC a lot, we're actually heading down there today for my brothers birthday. But downtown OKC is nicer and has more to do and the roads as a general rule are better in OKC. Both places have their positives and negatives, and I also don't understand the hating on the other city everytime something positive happens...

Agree. But it's fairly one-sided. It's the Tulsans who seem to be the bitter siblings.

I really think thats because most Tulsan's want the Tulsa of the 70s and 80s back when it was the nicer more dominant city in the state...many of the major companies left and the state, and the city did nothing to keep them.

It would make you cringe if you see some of the old paperwork I've been through from the 60s/70s/80s at just how many energy companies we lost to Texas, it is stunning. This happened in OKC as well but not to the same extent.

Most grown up places do not engage in this my city is better than your city stupidity. Sad

Actually, most cities have some city with which they are some sort of rival. However, in most cases there are significant differences between the cities in terms of culture, infrastructure, services, economic portfolio, history etc. There are differences between Oklahoma City and Tulsa for sure and Oklahoma City has been changing a lot in the last couple of decades, however, relative to most other "city rivalries" the two are extremely similar. I have actually never been to or lived in two cities that are more alike, especially in terms of lifestyle, culture, and economics. The state of the rivalry today seems to be fueled mostly by lingering perceptions of a time when maybe there were more differences and by ego or foolish pride backed by little substance.

I do think there are some things on Oklahoma City's plate that could create some real differences in the near future in terms of lifestyle options and services, but even then I don't see either city changing to the degree where the differences are as apparent and as measurable as those between some of the cities bluedogok listed. And as long as the economic makeup between the two cities are so similar, I really don't see one city doing anything in the next 10 years or so that the other city can't eventually match or top.

In the grand scheme of things, the reality is that what Oklahoma City has or may have in its near future, i.e. downtown improvements, Devon Tower, MAPS 3 projects, etc. are still pretty much "catch up" projects in order to try and provide options in the state that are not currently available, but can be readily found elsewhere. It really has nothing to do with Tulsa at all and none of it is targeted that way. What would really be great is if both cities continue to improve in such a way that there are some quality and competitive living and economic options for both and that they can actually be cross sold and boost Oklahoma's image overall.

I'm a big fan of Tulsa and a resident of OKC. There were times I would have preferred to live in Tulsa, but not now. OKC seems more "open" than Tulsa right now. There is an institutional inertia in Tulsa that seems to prevent progress. To add another word, provincial comes to mind when I think of Tulsa.

People there literally get hostile when OKC comes up in conversation. It's almost like an inferiority complex, which is strange, given Tulsans' longstanding sense of self-importance. But now, when they claim their superiority, it has a hollowness to it, almost like they don't really believe it, they're just saying it. It's holding them back. Personally, I don't understand why they're not thrilled OKC is improving itself. For years, we were an "embarrassment" to them, giving the state a bad image with our alleged lack of sophistication. Now that we're getting it, however, they are becoming enraged. It's bizarre, sad, and if I may say so, embarrassing.

That said, I readily acknowledge the good things happening there and hope that Tulsa can break through the inertia. There needs to be a way for the silent majority, if Swake is to be believed, to shut up the loudmouths.

I do wish we had Tulsa's music venues and lineup of concerts (not just at BOK, more so the Cain's), but perhaps the School of Rock will lead to better concert options here.

It's intriguing to read this thread and the one at TulsaNow: Articles, forums, resources and discussion about Tulsa (http://www.tulsanow.org). I'm not seeing any crass references and name calling in against Tulsa in this thread, though you do see that (along with some intelligent, thoughtful discussion) at the Tulsa forum.
I'd like to hear from the people who are on Tulsa Now who visit here how statements like "Okc is a cesspool....." are constructive.

Steve,

The statement you reference is precisely what I was talking about. Tulsa has a little-brother complex, an inferiority complex, and a perversely negative view of OKC's success. This is holding their city back. But the facts are that Tulsa fails to pass public initiatives, and OKC passes them. No amount of their bitching about OKC changes that simple fact. That's one of many reasons why this is a more progressive city.

well,

OKC has revamped Ford and NBA with more revamp a comin', and they got BOK and Britany's Circus

OKC has a plan for light rail, possibly expanded Amtrak (separatef rom Maps), better streets, bike trails, water holes for the elderly and nice crowds at Bricktown ballpark,
and they got fussin and fumin and a park for da Drillers

OKC has OU Medical Complex growing and blowing, and Tulsa had Repubs out dem the Dem's just to keep the OSU teaching hospital alive, hopefully

OKC has Devon and Tulsa has, well the Mayo has reopened, I'll give them that

Not sure why anyone over there ought to feel like someone slipped a bitter pill into their tacos

It's still a beautiful city though, and I retain many happy memories of when I lived there, long long ago, in a galaxy where Star Wars Episode VI was still in post production

It's still a beautiful city though,

Not as much as it used to be....It's starting to show wear, especially downtown.

I do wish they had a few more forceful Ron Norick types and a couple of Bob da Builder types who would sit down over a coffee and and say Can We do it? Yes Tulsa can! AND, then go do it. Wouldn't hurt OKC, and would help the entire state, just as OKC has helped raise the overall image over thelast decade plus.

Yep, just like it WAS in OKC pre-MAPS, the Tulsa gov't and business leaders seem to be its own worst enemy in this latest period and they lost the populace in the process. The CAN-DO/WILL-DO spirit that Tulsa had when OKC didn't seems to be gone. The voters also are not blameless either, they need to be willing to take chances, when MAPS I was passed it was a big chance for OKC and most of those who did vote for it knew it was a long shot to work.

They have done well in recent years with the new arena and ballpark but it takes more than that to generate the positive momentum. It is too nice of a city be heading in the wrong direction than it should be.

They weren't wrong on it being a long shot. Backing their own play by that first MAPS extension was a lesser leap. Now, it's pretty much don't sponsor something really dumb and don't just assume you can ride a temp tax forever, and most likely, enough folks will show up to let you do exactly that.

I do wish they had a few more forceful Ron Norick types and a couple of Bob da Builder types who would sit down over a coffee and and say Can We do it? Yes Tulsa can! AND, then go do it. Wouldn't hurt OKC, and would help the entire state, just as OKC has helped raise the overall image over thelast decade plus.

Kevin,


They do have these types, the public there just doesn't trust/support them when given the chance to vote.

I'm a big fan of Tulsa and a resident of OKC. There were times I would have preferred to live in Tulsa, but not now. OKC seems more "open" than Tulsa right now. There is an institutional inertia in Tulsa that seems to prevent progress. To add another word, provincial comes to mind when I think of Tulsa.

People there literally get hostile when OKC comes up in conversation. It's almost like an inferiority complex, which is strange, given Tulsans' longstanding sense of self-importance. But now, when they claim their superiority, it has a hollowness to it, almost like they don't really believe it, they're just saying it. It's holding them back. Personally, I don't understand why they're not thrilled OKC is improving itself. For years, we were an "embarrassment" to them, giving the state a bad image with our alleged lack of sophistication. Now that we're getting it, however, they are becoming enraged. It's bizarre, sad, and if I may say so, embarrassing.

That said, I readily acknowledge the good things happening there and hope that Tulsa can break through the inertia. There needs to be a way for the silent majority, if Swake is to be believed, to shut up the loudmouths.

I do wish we had Tulsa's music venues and lineup of concerts (not just at BOK, more so the Cain's), but perhaps the School of Rock will lead to better concert options here.
You hit the nail on the head...I love seeing OKC do well even though I live in Tulsa and I hope Tulsa will improve its standing...


It's intriguing to read this thread and the one at TulsaNow: Articles, forums, resources and discussion about Tulsa (http://www.tulsanow.org). I'm not seeing any crass references and name calling in against Tulsa in this thread, though you do see that (along with some intelligent, thoughtful discussion) at the Tulsa forum.
I'd like to hear from the people who are on Tulsa Now who visit here how statements like "Okc is a cesspool....." are constructive.I am a member of both sites and that type of crap is not constructive but many people don't care, they're clinging to Tulsa past and in many cases its the same people that perpetuate the problems...


Not as much as it used to be....It's starting to show wear, especially downtown.
I work downtown you are 100% correct, but the entire area is undergoing substantial infrastructure investment, but the city has made some god awful decisions regarding the IDL and the land it encompasses.

Yep, just like it WAS in OKC pre-MAPS, the Tulsa gov't and business leaders seem to be its own worst enemy in this latest period and they lost the populace in the process. The CAN-DO/WILL-DO spirit that Tulsa had when OKC didn't seems to be gone. The voters also are not blameless either, they need to be willing to take chances, when MAPS I was passed it was a big chance for OKC and most of those who did vote for it knew it was a long shot to work.

They have done well in recent years with the new arena and ballpark but it takes more than that to generate the positive momentum. It is too nice of a city be heading in the wrong direction than it should be.Another excellent post. Tulsa has a corrupt political system that you'd expect in Chicago not in Oklahoma. Numerous city officials have been arrested for taking kickbacks from companies regarding infrastructure investment....and we're not talking pennies here, according to local news reports and FBI information invoices were inflated by 30 to 40% on major road/sewer/electrical and other infrastructure investment.

It's no wonder people here do not trust the government, after moving up here a few years ago I was astounded at the blatant corruption and investigations going on in government.




Kevin,


They do have these types, the public there just doesn't trust/support them when given the chance to vote.

As I said there's a reason politicians aren't trusted up here, problem is the poeple of Tulsa proper keep voting for individuals embedded in the system instead of bringing people who are not already rooted in the corrupt practices around the city. We went from LaFortune (corrupt dirty SOB) to Taylor who's better but still pretty bad...

Then you have the massive political divide between the left and the right and those in the middle. Everyone here is deathly afraid of new taxes and some new taxes should be avoided and given the city's poor track record with tax payer money the last 15 years its understandable, every 2025 project has come in over budget, in the case of BOK...way over budget. (see invoice inflation???)

But the reality is, that is going to require substantial investment and tax increases if the infrastructure here is going to be rebuilt properly. The city voted down a 2 billion dollar tax to fix the roads and instead voted for a 450 million dollar plan...stupid...we should either do it right and do it once or not do it at all, instead we'll do 450 million, then need another 600 million and then another 800 million, in the meantime the poeple feel like they're being taxed to death because every few years another major tax renewal/hike is on the books. Taxes are high in Tulsa compared with OKC but we do not get the state/federal funding the OKC metro gets, and for good reason. But that means some sacrifices will need to be made in order to maintain quality infrastructure in Tulsa.

OUGrad, thanks so much for taking a shot at this discussion. I'm curious - in the Urban Tulsa article by Easterling there's mention of improvements coming to the Brady District. I think the Brady District has so much going for it - I'd be excited to see it become the worthy rival to Bricktown as the state's premier urban entertainment destination that it should be (why, oh why did OKC tear down its own version of Cain's?)

OUGrad, thanks so much for taking a shot at this discussion. I'm curious - in the Urban Tulsa article by Easterling there's mention of improvements coming to the Brady District. I think the Brady District has so much going for it - I'd be excited to see it become the worthy rival to Bricktown as the state's premier urban entertainment destination that it should be (why, oh why did OKC tear down its own version of Cain's?)

Every city makes mistakes, OKC has made their share :(

But everytime we go to OKC (we were down today) there's more construction more new buildings, most of it private investment and the roads are improving rapidly...

Tulsa has a more urban feel than OKC especially in midtown...its got plenty of postives going for it and its a naturally pretty city, especially compared with OKC (I'm not knocking OKC but its a lot greener/hilly here).

OKC has had great leadership for almost two decades...people forget when the first MAPS was passed there was a LOT of controversey but the city stayed plugged in with the public did a good job of managing the process and continues to do that. The result is public trust and a public that has felt the impacts of all the investment in the city.

Tulsa has some potential to rival bricktown but its not going to happen over night. The riverdistrict in Jenks is fun but its fairly small at this point.

I had to take my sister-in-law to the airport in Tulsa because a flight out of OKC was canceled. She's never been a resident of this state and had never been to Tulsa. (She also had not spent much time in Oklahoma City, for that matter). As we were driving to the airport, she turned to me and asked curiously "Is it just me, or is Tulsa falling apart?"

I love Tulsa, but I found myself unable to come up with a response to that question. She was the pretty good definition of an outsider, and that was her first thought of Tulsa. I think it's better for the state if both cities thrive and improve. The petty rivalry is just stupid.

...they got BOK and Britany's Circus

Hey, the Ford Center got Britney, too... when she was less skankified. ;)

This OKC-Tulsa thing has got to be the most stupid juvenile rivalry of any two cities. Most grown up places do not engage in this my city is better than your city stupidity. Sad

Really?
(Scratches head)
Dallas and Houston go at it pretty hard... as do Chicago and NYC.

I agree ed.

And Dallas and Houston are quite similar; in the same fashion as OKC and Tulsa.

Ditto Chicago and New York, there really isn't much difference that either have to offer that the other city doesn't - both NYC and Chi are our country's premier urban cities; just different location and history.

But, I do know that New Yorkers do have a huge respect for Chicago (most think it is the ONLY city they would ever move to) and most Chicago people know NYC has it all (but so does Chicago); And even Dallas people give Houston credit for their taller skyline and energy business while Houston people envy Dallas's 'wealth culture'.

But the same does not seem to be said for Tulsa for OKC. It seems as though many old school people in Tulsa really HATE oklahoma city - and refuse to ever open their eyes to the current state of affairs. In fact, doesn't dallas also dump on OKC?

Hm, Im glad that OKC has thick skin and is able to shake off this adversary - and pick itself up. I don't think Tulsa will ever be able to catch OKC - because due to their arrogance and inability to get anything done or agree to something for their city;

OKC has moved on to a different class of cities. As was said, many of the infrastructure projects and improvements to OKC are NOT to impress or wow Tulsa; but they are to compete with Dallas, Denver, Indy, and Seattle.

can you seriously tell me that Tulsa will EVER build a huge convention centre complex that OKC will build with MAPS 3? can you seriously tell me that Tulsa will ever build a downtown streetcar AND commuter rail to its suburbs AND Amtrak? can you seriously tell me the Tulsa will add to their airport or significantly change their river or make the Brady District as big and 'touristy' as Bricktown?

I dont think so.

Im not saying that Tulsa will not improve their convention centre or build a new one - it just will not be as big as OKC's. Im not saying that Tulsa will not have commuter rail OR a downtown streetcar; they just will not have both. Im not saying that Tulsa will not improve their airport or rebuild the Arkansas River; just not the huge retrofits that have and are taking place in OKC.

OKC is now looking to compete with the out of state big boys and not really looking or caring what Tulsa thinks anymore. Sure, Tulsa is still the state's gem and probably always will be, but OKC is the powerhouse and it is important that the state's largest and biggest show can compete or at least show up at the table of national cities/states.

It helps our state, and Tulsa can sure have a place as our gem - but they need to get away from cursing OKC and instead recognize the potential they have and work with OKC to improve the state.

Otherwise, Tulsa might become the next Lawton when all that remains up there is people stuck in the 1970s-1980s (arguably a small but loud/powerful minority up there) and three empty office towers.

From the Journal Record:

OKC Council approves $95M loan for Devon project

City Council members authorized Oklahoma City's Economic Development Trust to borrow $95 million for public improvements associated with the planned Devon headquarters skyscraper Tuesday, a loan provided by Devon itself. The maneuver effectively allows the city to begin working on downtown landscaping and infrastructure improvements in a previously approved tax increment finance district before bank financing would otherwise be available because the land is still undeveloped, officials said.

Interesting...

From the Journal Record:

OKC Council approves $95M loan for Devon project

City Council members authorized Oklahoma City's Economic Development Trust to borrow $95 million for public improvements associated with the planned Devon headquarters skyscraper Tuesday, a loan provided by Devon itself. The maneuver effectively allows the city to begin working on downtown landscaping and infrastructure improvements in a previously approved tax increment finance district before bank financing would otherwise be available because the land is still undeveloped, officials said.

Sounds about right, Devon breaks ground on Oct1 on the tower?

Oct. 6

Kevin,


They do have these types, the public there just doesn't trust/support them when given the chance to vote.

Who are they? I can usually figure out who to vote against (the 'no new taxes - we don't need a new arena - we don't need to revitalize downtown types) but I don't know enough about the people who run for city council and mayor to know who would really do a good job.