I just returned from a week in Wisconsin and spent a full day walking through old town Milwaukee, as there is a lot to see in terms of urban development and just in general. I've said many times I think Milwaukee is the most under-rated city in the U.S.

So, you are going to see lots of posts from me about all the things they do well there and how it can serve as a model for OKC.


Brew Town has an area much like Bricktown called the Historic Third Ward; tons of old brick buildings renovated into condos, apartments, galleries, theaters, retail, restaurants and mini-museums.

On the north end of the district (just on the other side of the interstate from the CBD) there is the Milwaukee Public Market (http://www.milwaukeepublicmarket.org/index.php), a large glass and steel building that features about a dozen vendors selling produce, spices, bread, beverages, meat, etc. It's much like a Whole Foods inside, it's just that there are lots of different businesses rather than just one.

There is also lots of open space for events, cooking classes and just eating and hanging out.

Most the businesses sell prepared food as well; again much like a deli section in a Whole Foods. The market itself is operated as a non-profit organization and was financed by grants and public funds. I understand it's loosely based on Pike Place in Seattle, but it's only a few years old. It also looks 100% full.

There is also some large adjacent outdoor space for sitting, music and big seasonal produce/goods markets.

I think this would work in Bricktown (or nearby) beautifully:

http://mysite.verizon.net/res17zef/market1.jpg

http://mysite.verizon.net/res17zef/market2.jpg

http://mysite.verizon.net/res17zef/market3.jpg

http://mysite.verizon.net/res17zef/market4.jpg

http://mysite.verizon.net/res17zef/market5.jpg

http://mysite.verizon.net/res17zef/market6.jpg

Here's another image that shows the second level seating area that is also used for classes and events:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_klPiDoA1-yQ/SGnYOANvELI/AAAAAAAAAXs/jqDpbMiZC2I/DSCF0177.jpg

Very nice. Also Fayetteville, AR surprisingly has many things our downtown is lacking. I intend on writing a post about my recent visit there as well as pics.

That would be awesome right about where the Bass Pro is. ; )

San Francisco's Ferry Building is another example of these public markets that every city seems to have these days:

Ferry Building Marketplace (http://www.ferrybuildingmarketplace.com/)

http://www.cooltownstudios.com/images/sf-ferrybuilding-int.jpg

The best part about this concept is that it combines several vendors of different specialties creating a destination in and of itself. It is not like one vendor (i.e. Whole Foods) trying to meet the daily grocery needs of a limited geographic region of the community. It actually becomes something you do, like "go to the mall". It can also serve the lunch crowd with several specialty places to eat and even cater to tourists with unique shops and gift booths.

Placed in or around bricktown, something like this could single handedly solve the grocery store problem downtown and actually be a real catalyst in a greater expansion of retail downtown. It creates instant synergy and density for residents, while at the same time being yet another attraction for the area.

What's funny is that something like this would almost be reason enough for me to begin looking for a place downtown. Maybe all of the triangle developers need to get together and build one of these places to help actually justify the prices they are asking. : )

IMO, the is the best answer to downtown's "needs" going forward.

I love it...Still think we are a ways off from having anything close to this concept. Someone must be willing to take a risk and not expect a dime of return for a very long time. We have a long way to go. Tons of talk - Zero action!!

I agree it's still a way's off but also the best way to bring grocery retailers to the downtown area. In Milwaukee, it was several years of talking and planning followed by a couple of slow years before the project clicked. Also, since the building itself was funded with grants and public money, I believe the rents are very low. I imagine they are inching up now the place has become a big success.

It's not hard to imagine a nice wine store, something like Watonga Cheese, Market C, a place with special BBQ sauces, salsas, etc. The crowd in Milwaukee is a great blend of downtown workers, hip urban people that live nearby, locals making a short trip (there is decent parking) and tourists. I love that it's a place to eat, shop, hang out, take classes, have events, etc. And all that is driven by the community and mix of retailers, not just one big profit-seeking chain.


FYI, Milwaukee has a Whole Foods a mile or two north of their downtown, in an area similar to Midtown. There are lots of similarities to Oklahoma City, they are just way further along in terms of urban infrastructure, development and people living in and near their core.

That would be awesome right about where the Bass Pro is.

1) You're right. 2) Eventually we may need to find a new use for that building anyway, and this idea would be perfect. 3)It could easily go in their parking lot on the canal and a parking structure could be built on Reno. 4) Another great location would be across Reno in the huge parking lot of the Bricktown Events Center. 5) Or... Use some of the current grain silos at the co-op for this purpose, tied together with glass and steel structures between.

2) Eventually we may need to find a new use for that building anyway, and this idea would be perfect.

Is Bass Pro in trouble?

Not that I'd miss it. I've never been there, and I love the idea of that market.

I have bought up the same concept before in the Whole Foods thread but with the Chelsea Market in NYC (http://chelseamarket.com/) as the model. Seems to me a workable, local concept just waiting for the right people to bring it together.

Pete,

Thank you for this outstanding post.

The more I find out about Whole Foods, the more I think this Public Market concept is actually better.

Whole Foods (Whole Paycheck) is overpriced and caters to high-income customers almost exclusively.

This market concept is excellent and should be presented to the Chamber and other city leaders.

We (not me) need to stop spending every waking minute focusing on Core to Shore and make something like this happen in our existing downtown.

Sign me up!

Tuck, agreed! Let's petition your neighbor, Councilwoman Meg Salyer to push for this at City Hall.

Tuck, agreed! Let's petition your neighbor, Councilwoman Meg Salyer to push for this at City Hall.

Whatever it takes...

How about getting a bunch of growers and makers of stuff together to put together a project like this?

Sounds like a great idea.

These are smashing concepts, both, and as a frequent visitor to SF, the Ferry Building is one of my fave stops (right after Whole Foods, natch!)

For OKC, however, I could see more of the Milwaulkee concept, with more of a traditional farmer's market look and feel, with a few gourmet selections thrown in for good measure. As a downtown, we are still very much in need of the BASICS.

The Ferry Building, while there are a few basic organic farm grocers in there, is largely comprised of specialty gourmet farmers and vendors - mushrooms unlike any you've seen before, the Cowgirl Creamery organic cheeses (heaven!!!), breads of all kinds, truffles, an olive oil shop, a lavendar shop, a gourmet chocolate shop, and of course, sea food, plus various other things. Of course, SF is smack in the middle of some of the most robust agriculture areas in the country (slapped between Santa Barbara in SoCal and the Napa Valley areas), so there are gobs of local products from which to choose.

There's also a GREAT little Mexi joint in there (name escapes me). Ahhhh....I'm drooling just thinking about it all.

Might be a great fit. I'd still like to see a small grocer or market of some type in that stand alone builing on the east side of Walker, about ninth. Might be too small except for a concept market, but there are two large bay doors on the back that make me think it was a grocer or food vendor of some kind back in the day.

I'll try and find out who drove this project in Milwaukee, as they put together a task force, sought grant money, then went to the public sector for support. I believe there was TIF money involved... Maybe the new Devon TIF could help here?

Milwaukee obviously felt the need to jump-start these type of retailers in the area... I bet, like OKC, they realized no grocer was going to pump it's own money into such a risky area, especially when there were far better sites for their purposes just a couple of miles away. And FYI, Milwaukee has many, many more people living downtown than we do... And they still couldn't get a traditional grocer down there.

The key to this particular market is that while they have basics for people that live down there (and for workers that want to pick something up) they also have goods and an atmosphere that you can't find elsewhere. As with any retail in the downtown area, if you merely try and copy what is already done in the suburbs, the locals will never come.


If something like this could get rolling, I think you'd see more small retailers follow.

It would be nice if OKC could develope something like this.

Having a cafe or other small restaurant in there utilizing the foods brought in by the vendors would also be a big draw. Go shop, eat and relax during lunch or after work!

OK. I'm ready for my annual fall SF trek!

Here's more on how this whole thing came together... Looks like it was driven by a downtown BID group:


Milwaukee Public Market gets grant
Daily Reporter (Milwaukee), Apr 26, 2004 by Sean Ryan

A $2.5 million federal grant coupled with a $2 million construction loan are propelling the Milwaukee Public Market project into construction this summer.

Our goal is to be a tightly run project that comes in on time and on budget, said Einar Tangen, chair of the Milwaukee Business Improvement District No. 2, a leading collaborator on the project. We hope this will be an economic benefit not only to the city but to the region. People should look at this as a community project.

The six years of preparation and fund raising will come to fruition this summer when work begins on the $10 million indoor and outdoor fresh food market to be built on the corner of Water Street and St. Paul Avenue.


The building's first floor will have permanent vendor areas for bakers and butchers up front and a space for produce booths in the back. The second floor will have a designer demonstration kitchen and offices, and the basement will have storage space. There will be a canopy for outdoor vendors along the building's west edge on Water Street.

The project was waiting for the U.S. Department of Commerce Economic Development Administration's $2.5 million grant for the job to clear, which it did last week with the help of Rep. Paul Ryan.

Private and public funds

The project budget includes $5.5 million in private donations, a $2 million construction loan, $500,000 from the state Department of Commerce and a $300,000 Commerce grant that Mayor Tom Barrett secured when he was still in the House of Representatives.

Tangen said fund-raising efforts would continue and that his group hopes to have paid off the project debt by the time construction is complete next spring. It's awaiting an answer on a $750,000 brownfield cleanup grant from the state and is marketing naming rights - $3 million for the Market Hall, $1 million for the second floor demonstration kitchen and $500,000 for the outdoor market on Water Street among other areas.

The steering committee will organize a smaller group to function as the owner on the project and oversee the not-for-profit market's operations.

The project is a mix of hard business practice and community support. It is the result of serious market study, follows the location, location, location mantra, and will push its tenants to mix up their products to keep the market fresh. But the point of the building is to give Milwaukee a downtown place to buy fresh produce and to provide a promotion area for the state's agricultural community, and the group is willing to pitch in funding to help vendors succeed. The produce left over at the end of each day will be given to local food pantries.

This will provide the opportunity to showcase the city in a different light, Tangen said. This is a big undertaking, and part of our money is going to make sure that they (vendors) can be successful. This market is for everybody.

CG Schmidt Construction Inc. helped develop the project as a partner with The Kubala Washatko Architects Inc. and will be the general contractor. The federal funding requires the project to follow federal bidding regulations, and all contractors must pay prevailing wages on the job. Tangen said the project team would meet with the Economic Development Administration to discuss its oversight on the project.

From their position, it's 2.5 million bucks, he said. They should be looking at what's going on.

3)It could easily go in their parking lot on the canal and a parking structure could be built on Reno. 4) Another great location would be across Reno in the huge parking lot of the Bricktown Events Center. 5) Or... Use some of the current grain silos at the co-op for this purpose, tied together with glass and steel structures between.

Also, the parking lot just north of the U-Haul building would be cool, too. Not sure how big that lot is, but it would be a great location and could be a real anchor for retail in bricktown and more in lower bricktown, if they ever figure out how to add more...

The old OPUBCO distribution center would have been a great place, too, but I think that is occupied by OBU now, right?

There also might still be potential on Automobile Alley as well for something like this.

Basically, real estate we got. Funding, vision, and a spearhead, not so much.

Honestly, we gave Bass Pro a big break and, after that, I really thought we shouldn't be subsidizing retail anymore, but this is one thing that I could come around to and say "ok, maybe give it one more shot". It would certainly give the area much needed daytime draw beyond the CBD population and, if done right, I think could be a bigger draw from outside the district than any grocery store chain, Whole Foods included.

I'll try and find out who drove this project in Milwaukee, as they put together a task force, sought grant money, then went to the public sector for support. I believe there was TIF money involved... Maybe the new Devon TIF could help here?

Milwaukee obviously felt the need to jump-start these type of retailers in the area... I bet, like OKC, they realized no grocer was going to pump it's own money into such a risky area, especially when there were far better sites for their purposes just a couple of miles away. And FYI, Milwaukee has many, many more people living downtown than we do... And they still couldn't get a traditional grocer down there.

The key to this particular market is that while they have basics for people that live down there (and for workers that want to pick something up) they also have goods and an atmosphere that you can't find elsewhere. As with any retail in the downtown area, if you merely try and copy what is already done in the suburbs, the locals will never come.


If something like this could get rolling, I think you'd see more small retailers follow.


I've read recently that other cities have actually paid to subsidize private grocery chains, an idea that's not so great. Why are cities doing this? Because these grocers would not have chosen to locate there for any reason due to market conditions.

The public market idea is much more palatable, because it provides a genuine trade opportunity for a ton of small businesses, meets the needs of the citizens, and does not favor one company over another.

I'm fairly certain it was a Texas city that subsidized the store, and I think it was a Tom Thumb or something. Not really that great of a store to begin with, and nothing unique.

The market concept is brilliant because it would be unique to Oklahoma City, with unique vendors, selling a lot of truly local (and a lot of organic) groceries.

There are many things about Whole Foods that aren't really what they seem.

To me, this is a better idea than working with any single chain.

Milwaukee has many, many more people living downtown than we do... And they still couldn't get a traditional grocer down there.


I think every poster on this board, every lurker, and everyone involved in downtown development needs to read this point, let it sink in, and think about it.

Face it, we are not going to have a grocery store downtown that fits any conventional development strategy. It's not going to happen anytime soon.

That is, unless we consider other options, and this is an outstanding one, IMO.

The public market idea is much more palatable, because it provides a genuine trade opportunity for a ton of small businesses, meets the needs of the citizens, and does not favor one company over another.

And maybe, just maybe, we could make it only locals and use a high profile public subsidy to help businesses owned by people who actually live and work here. Hey, and then maybe, just maybe, a much greater share of the profits would actually stay here, too. Hmmmm....?

And maybe, just maybe, we could make it only locals and use a high profile public subsidy to help businesses owned by people who actually live and work here. Hey, and then maybe, just maybe, a much greater share of the profits would actually stay here, too. Hmmmm....?

That sounds very good, and is very sustainable, and would be an admirable goal, but it could also be too limiting.

If you look at the vendors at the Milwaukee facility, they are all locals that typically have another sort of outlet, but use the public market to showcase particular items and to gain access to many who may not know about them, or don't want to travel to where they are.

It's great that we have places like Market C, Sage, Prairie Thunder, etc. But it would be even better if the community could give them a leg-up and at the same time create a unique environment.

In fact, the idea is so unique in the state that it could easily draw people from all over just to visit there. When I was in the Milwaukee market, it was a Monday about 10:30AM and it was pretty darn busy, which impressed me to no end.


BTW, Milwaukee has about 15,000 housing units downtown and OKC has less than 3,000.

Good find Pete. Sign me up for the Milwaukee Pub Market idea. I'm completely sold. I think those cooking classes would be great date ideas for those looking for an alternative nights out. I'm down for this idea.

I've got a location/building that would be perfect for the project! With parking, to boot!

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/maps/vintage/itenbiscuit2.jpg
(image via Doug's site)

All it would take is peeling off the metal(?) siding and a little TLC...

Now if we can only kick UHaul out of it................. I seriously think this should be in MAPS 3, its probably too late, but if they sat aside $2-3 mil for this, we could easily get it off ground, and that's pocket change for MAPS 3.

Whoa, I had no idea that was the U-Haul building.

The building as you see it in that picture is 100% intact, underneath the sheet metal cladding. Including those stunning casement windows. The storage compartments inside are all built out of lightweight materials and built between the existing structural pillars, etc. That building could be cleared out and brought back to its original interior state in a very few days with a couple of skid steer loaders.

Interestingly, the very concept being discussed in this thread was planned for that building in the 1970s. A local attorney, Bill Peterson, planned to convert that building into a market based loosely on Pike Place Market in Seattle. U-Haul beat him to the building though. He then went on to form Warehouse Development Company with Neal Horton and John Michael Williams, which was the company that started the redevelopment of Bricktown. Steve details it all in his Bricktown book, and I think Doug has posted about it before on this site, including the original conceptual.

It was a huge missed opportunity, 'though it really got the ball rolling on what is now Bricktown. You wonder what the district would have become if Peterson had succeeded way back in the late '70s. Also, the U-Haul thing could have been a blessing in disguise. It has entombed that building for someone else to be able to do an amazing historic preservation job and redevelopment at a later date.

By the way, those casement windows wrap all four sides of the building, which is not often the case on a structure like that.

i think the uhaul building would be great... but then again, i think this has underutilized potential... -M

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2028/2152724055_40206ed0ae.jpg?v=0

mmm, agreed, especially since the City DID have plans to Remodel it into a first class market a few years ago, and then bailed supposively. See this thread:

http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-area-talk/18522-okc-public-farmers-market-get-remodeled.html

I thought of the old farmer's market as well, the problem is that it's not within walking distance of downtown residents and that's a huge drawback IMO. It rather defeats the main purpose.

The Iten Biscuit Building (aka U-Haul) has the most potential and positives going for it: location, visibility, close(r) to rooftops, parking, and so on...

The only other current space that would make sense, besides the Old Farmers Market, would be this jewel of a building:

http://digital.library.okstate.edu/encyclopedia/entries/A/images/AU002B.jpg

. . .don't want to quote the whole passage, but Pete mentioned something about a nice wine store, cheese shop, et cet. Since we can't sell wine in grocery stores, how would that work?? Would it be considered like a big indoor mall?? Or would the liquor cartel have to sign up??

. . .don't want to quote the whole passage, but Pete mentioned something about a nice wine store, cheese shop, et cet. Since we can't sell wine in grocery stores, how would that work?? Would it be considered like a big indoor mall?? Or would the liquor cartel have to sign up??

Each vendor would be a separate 'store.'

All great ideas, be careful not to turn this new project into an Antique Co-op style market.

i think the uhaul building would be great... but then again, i think this has underutilized potential... -M

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2028/2152724055_40206ed0ae.jpg?v=0

Agreed. That would be quite a sight all fixed up.

It would be nice to see the Farmer's Market all fixed up, but it wouldn't make a good location for what this thread is about. It is not in the CBD or residential section of downtown.

It would be nice to see the Farmer's Market all fixed up, but it wouldn't make a good location for what this thread is about. It is not in the CBD or residential section of downtown.


Let's take a closer look:

It's a 20 minute walk from Bricktown to the Farmer's Market.

It's just about the same distance from Bricktown to Sycamore Square and the Legacy.

It's more like 15 from Sycamore Square and Legacy to the Farmer's Market.

Sure it is not the CBD... but, especially after the revitalization of Film Row is complete... it will be walkable from residential... and could be considered part of downtown for all practical purposes.

It is also a sort of 'gateway' district to/from Stockyard's City/Exchange Ave... one of OKC's most unique urban neighborhoods.

I think it would be wise to grow development that direction. (As opposed to a project like this in the biscuit building)

Let's take a closer look:

It's a 20 minute walk from Bricktown to the Farmer's Market.

It's just about the same distance from Bricktown to Sycamore Square and the Legacy.

It's more like 15 from Sycamore Square and Legacy to the Farmer's Market.

Sure it is not the CBD... but, especially after the revitalization of Film Row is complete... it will be walkable from residential... and could be considered part of downtown for all practical purposes.

It is also a sort of 'gateway' district to/from Stockyard's City/Exchange Ave... one of OKC's most unique urban neighborhoods.

I think it would be wise to grow development that direction. (As opposed to a project like this in the biscuit building)

These are all good arguments, but people in this town will not walk there. It wouldn't have the same glue in that location. Sorry. It is what it is.

These are all good arguments, but people in this town will not walk there. It wouldn't have the same glue in that location. Sorry. It is what it is.

People here are walking more and more everyday. It may be inch by inch but it's happening.

If we are going to look at Oklahomans' current/past/stereotyped attitudes about walking in a "J. Brian Walters-sort-of-way" then we might as well give up on our Trails project, parks and recreation, sidewalks, streetcar hopes and all streetscapes... because we are fat and lazy and it is what it is.

Let's take a closer look:

It's a 20 minute walk from Bricktown to the Farmer's Market.


I wouldn't walk in any direction down Reno Ave towards Farmer's Market. The bridge is so damn scary.. I mean... SCARY. My out of town guest commented that it looked like the homeless people were tailgating the opening of the mission. They had chairs out, beers open and loitering all over the place.

This is fantastic place in Stockholm that could serve as a model for the type of market being discussed here. It is full of unique products and tiny restaurants.

Östermalms Saluhall (http://www.saluhallen.com/)

There are lots of these type of markets in Europe, but I don't see why something similar could not work in OKC. If a suitable location could be found, and I think it MUST be IN Bricktown IN an old building, then a unique formula of local products could work just fine. I'm thinking about many of the products that are currently sold in the Farmer's market, but also things such as buffalo meat / rattlesnake meat (why not?) and lots of fresh vegetables. I could imagine a special area for Indian-related (American) as well as Soul Food. This might sound too 'low class" for an upscale market, but in reality, these are the types of things that define our region. Why not a 'State Fair' restaurant, specializing in the wonderful canned products that were omnipresent in Oklahoma's Pioneer days. I can tell you first hand, that this would draw many tourist as it is not your standard chain restaurant or attraction.
Yes, it will take subsidies from the City to get it started, but again, why not? This would benefit all residents in one way or another. An additional way to finance it would be to give local restaurants the opportunity to have a 'mini-restaurant'. How about a small Cattleman's Diner in the Market with the best quality Oklahoma steaks to eat there or take away raw vacuum-packed. I mean really, the possibilities just go on and on! Let's take a chance and get the city excited about this!

Good idea about the market, and I support the city subsidizing one, but in NO WAY, does Cattlemen's come even close to the best steaks in OKC.

Good idea about the market, and I support the city subsidizing one, but in NO WAY, does Cattlemen's come even close to the best steaks in OKC.

Oops! Didn't mean to step on toes. I still like their steaks, but then I don't get back very often. Any recommendations?

Back to the market though, unique restaurants or vendors (produce/cheeses/wines/bakeries, etc.) would be a nice addition to Bricktown.