View Full Version : Change the Method, Not the Message.



metro
08-10-2009, 01:07 PM
Change the Method, Not the Message - LifeChurch.tv : swerve (http://swerve.lifechurch.tv/2009/08/10/change-the-method-not-the-message/)


gWRv1mf-Bk4

Martin
08-10-2009, 01:10 PM
just put the movie id inside the youtube tag, not the whole url.

like so:
[ yt ]gWRv1mf-Bk4[ /yt ]

-M

metro
08-10-2009, 01:12 PM
Thanks M!

HVAC Instructor
08-11-2009, 01:30 PM
From the comments section of youtube:


(2:50) It's a sad day when people aren't in church because they're "not interested". There are people going to hell every day not because they're not interested in church but because they're not hearing the TRUE Gospel. I'm sure if people knew the Bible was true they were TRULY loved by a Holy and Just God Who died for their sins to keep them out of hell, they might have an interest in hearing about it.

We REALLY do need to reach these people!!!

Translation: The church really needs to find better methods of communication to get people into church through guilt and fear tactics such as the concept of spending an eternity in hell for not accepting our concept of god. (but god loves you! and the church needs the money.)

Midtowner
08-11-2009, 02:01 PM
And boy oh boy does LC need the money. Those webservers and laser light shows don't pay for themselves y'know.

PennyQuilts
08-11-2009, 02:14 PM
Back in the days when I was a practicing Baptist, I found the amount of money given to the pastor and his family for every single thing they wanted to be a real stumbling block, as they say. I mean, I couldn't afford to take my kids to DisneyWorld but they'd take up collections so they could, and camps and trips to Europe and you name it. If I heard once, I heard a zillion times that you need to look past the messenger to the message - just the same, it left a bad taste in my mouth. I felt like the flock was getting fleeced a bit too much.

HVAC Instructor
08-11-2009, 02:15 PM
Back in the days when I was a practicing Baptist, I found the amount of money given to the pastor and his family for every single thing they wanted to be a real stumbling block, as they say. I mean, I couldn't afford to take my kids to DisneyWorld but they'd take up collections so they could, and camps and trips to Europe and you name it. If I heard once, I heard a zillion times that you need to look past the messenger to the message - just the same, it left a bad taste in my mouth. I felt like the flock was getting fleeced a bit too much.


You godless heathen!

PennyQuilts
08-11-2009, 02:19 PM
You godless heathen!

Heathen, yes. Godless, nope!

HVAC Instructor
08-11-2009, 02:20 PM
Heathen, yes. Godless, nope!

Wait a minute...don't you pagan types worship godesses?

PennyQuilts
08-11-2009, 02:34 PM
Wait a minute...don't you pagan types worship godesses?

Some do. It is definitely open to a maternalistic leanings but not nearly so rigid as the paternalistic ones.

That being said, if you want an orderly society, a paternalistic religion is your best bet.

HVAC Instructor
08-11-2009, 02:37 PM
Some do. It is definitely open to a maternalistic leanings but not nearly so rigid as the paternalistic ones.

That being said, if you want an orderly society, a paternalistic religion is your best bet.

People are going to start whispering stuff about us if we keep agreeing like this.

Yes, if women ran the world, there would be no wars. I could live with that. I've had enough macho BS for my lifetime.

Luke
08-11-2009, 02:50 PM
Translation: The church really needs to find better methods of communication to get people into church through guilt and fear tactics such as the concept of spending an eternity in hell for not accepting our concept of god. (but god loves you! and the church needs the money.)

Are you opposed to punishing people generally speaking?

PennyQuilts
08-11-2009, 02:51 PM
Yes, if women ran the world, there would be no wars. I could live with that. I've had enough macho BS for my lifetime.

Oh, I don't agree with that, darling. Women can be plain mean - tons meaner than men. You didn't want to fall into the hands of Apache women, for sure. I've seen women cause more commotion on a slow afternoon than men can do in a month. I do think mothers want to stop war because they have kids to protect. I also think it is really, really difficult to keep young men from going out and clobbering SOMEONE if they don't have a good war. Thank god for contact sports is all I can say about that energy reliever.

metro
08-11-2009, 02:58 PM
And boy oh boy does LC need the money. Those webservers and laser light shows don't pay for themselves y'know.

Actually LC asks far less often for money than any other church I've attended or visited. Show me another church who offers a 100% money back guarantee on the tithe and tells you to take out of the offering bucket if you're an adult in need of food,clothing or shelter.

HVAC Instructor
08-11-2009, 03:57 PM
Oh, I don't agree with that, darling. Women can be plain mean - tons meaner than men. You didn't want to fall into the hands of Apache women, for sure. I've seen women cause more commotion on a slow afternoon than men can do in a month. I do think mothers want to stop war because they have kids to protect. I also think it is really, really difficult to keep young men from going out and clobbering SOMEONE if they don't have a good war. Thank god for contact sports is all I can say about that energy reliever.

Goes back to the yin/yang principle of balance. And that was what I was referring to: Mothers. My mother is Cherokee, but I'd swear she's Apache, but she completely despises war.

Easy180
08-11-2009, 07:31 PM
Actually LC asks far less often for money than any other church I've attended or visited. Show me another church who offers a 100% money back guarantee on the tithe and tells you to take out of the offering bucket if you're an adult in need of food,clothing or shelter.

How many folks tithing would have the bells to walk in and ask for their tithe back?....Probably a little cynical but I'm certain the guarantee and the whole take money from the bucket wouldn't be offered up as much if they weren't raking in the cash

Have nothing against LC but it's beyond evident their cash flow is plenty strong

bluedogok
08-11-2009, 07:44 PM
How many folks tithing would have the bells to walk in and ask for their tithe back?....Probably a little cynical but I'm certain the guarantee and the whole take money from the bucket wouldn't be offered up as much if they weren't raking in the cash

Have nothing against LC but it's beyond evident their cash flow is plenty strong
They said the same thing when there was barely 100 at the one service when they met in a large empty room a Mat Hoffman's bicycle facility at 122nd & Santa Fe. That message hadn't changed in the time that I went there up until the time that I moved to Austin in 2003.

Easy180
08-11-2009, 07:53 PM
They said the same thing when there was barely 100 at the one service when they met in a large empty room a Mat Hoffman's bicycle facility at 122nd & Santa Fe. That message hadn't changed in the time that I went there up until the time that I moved to Austin in 2003.

I'm sure it has stayed the same bluedog...Just comes across more as marketing to me is all...They know very few would take them up on the offer

HVAC Instructor
08-11-2009, 07:55 PM
Are you opposed to punishing people generally speaking?

How in the world did you come to make that ASSumption? :dizzy:

Luke
08-11-2009, 08:30 PM
How in the world did you come to make that ASSumption? :dizzy:

Are you backtracking? Why not answer my original question?

;)

HVAC Instructor
08-11-2009, 08:59 PM
Are you backtracking? Why not answer my original question?

;)

Geezeo-Petey! I'm missing your logic Luke. Here's my comment you are referring to:


From the comments section of youtube:

Translation: The church really needs to find better methods of communication to get people into church through guilt and fear tactics such as the concept of spending an eternity in hell for not accepting our concept of god. (but god loves you! and the church needs the money.)

I was referring to the use of fear and guilt by churches to increase attendance and income to the church. Get a grip man! What's that got to do with punsihment, as in law & order? There is no law in America you break by not believing in a particular diety, (although there are some here who wish there was) or not attending church and tithing. You are attempting a strawman argument here.

Midtowner
08-11-2009, 09:05 PM
Actually LC asks far less often for money than any other church I've attended or visited. Show me another church who offers a 100% money back guarantee on the tithe and tells you to take out of the offering bucket if you're an adult in need of food,clothing or shelter.

I've never been to a church which required or even asked for anything called a "tithe" (even thought he church I attend invented the darn thing).

Luke
08-11-2009, 09:31 PM
Geezeo-Petey! I'm missing your logic Luke. I was referring to the use of fear and guilt by churches to increase attendance and income to the church.

First, you're assuming hell is not real.

Obviously, if there were no hell, then you might be accurate in your assessment of LifeChurch's alleged scare tactics.

However, if there is a hell, then is it not the responsibility of people who believe in hell to warn people about the dangers therein?

I would hope (at the very least) that the murderers, rapists and torturers of the world who get away with it in this life would at least get what's coming to them in the one to come.

Finally, I believe that our innate sense of right and wrong and the expression of that in our society by means of a system of justice (which I assume you support) is simply a reflection of the ultimate justice system in place by our Creator.

Martin
08-12-2009, 05:32 AM
How in the world did you come to make that ASSumption?

that looks an awful lot like flamebait... and it was unnecessary. certainly you're capable of carrying on a conversation like a mature adult.

-M

Martin
08-12-2009, 05:37 AM
even though the church i attend invented the darn thing

huh... i didn't know you were jewish.

-M

HVAC Instructor
08-12-2009, 07:11 AM
that looks an awful lot like flamebait... and it was unnecessary. certainly you're capable of carrying on a conversation like a mature adult.

-M

Sorry, but it was an assumption out of the blue that made absolutely no sense. Not flamebait at all.

Have I somehow offended your religous sensibilities?

Martin
08-12-2009, 07:13 AM
sorry, but it was an assumption out of the blue that made absolutely no sense. not flamebait at all.
i don't take issue with you calling it an assumption... what i take issue with is your choice of capitalization. certainly that much was obvious.

-M

HVAC Instructor
08-12-2009, 07:20 AM
i don't take issue with you calling it an assumption... what i take issue with is your choice of capitalization. certainly that much was obvious.

-M

Fair enough then. I only intended to emphasize the point, not to flame.

metro
08-12-2009, 07:49 AM
How many folks tithing would have the bells to walk in and ask for their tithe back?....Probably a little cynical but I'm certain the guarantee and the whole take money from the bucket wouldn't be offered up as much if they weren't raking in the cash

Have nothing against LC but it's beyond evident their cash flow is plenty strong

We also planted over 1000 churches worldwide last year too........ 1 out of every 27 iphones on the planet has downloaded our YouVersion Bible. 1.8 million people worldwide watch our services online in over 40 different countries and over 35 different languages. Sounds like following the Great Commission to me. Using resources to teach the Gospel to all nations..all at no cost to the user. There are churches out there that charge for sermons, videos, materials, etc. but you can't knock LC because we give all our resources available for free. Ironically, I don't hear any of the critics in this thread knocking on the churches out there that charge for this stuff. Go figure.

LC is also one of only about 100 churches to receive ECFA accredidation for financial integrity. In all fairness, why aren't the other 3500+ churches in the metro being singled out. They aren't certified by a highly respected organization on their financial transparency and integrity. With success brings more critics though....

http://www.okctalk.com/faith-values/14768-lifechurch-tv-receives-ecfa-accreditation.html

HVAC Instructor
08-12-2009, 08:28 AM
Ironically, I don't hear any of the critics in this thread knocking on the churches out there that charge for this stuff. Go figure.
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It is good to hear that LC has integrity and does not charge for sermons, although I've never heard of a church that did. However EVERY church I have ever been in does ask for offerings in some form or fashion. Nothing wrong with that either. Gotta pay the preacher, buy him a house and a car and pay his kids college tuition, etc, and the utilities if not taxes...

But I am an equal critic of all religion that uses guilt and fear to get people into their buildings, and ultimately their money into the church coffers. I am also opposed to the tax exemption enjoyed by religious organizations. They rake in BILLIONS of dollars and pay not one dime in taxes. That is morally wrong and unjustified. Churches should pay property taxes and any other tax like any other business because thay ARE businesses, and in some cases BIG businesses taking up prime real estate space and passing their share of the communities tax burden onto the citizens of the community. What a racket...make the non-believers pay your taxes, LOL!

metro
08-12-2009, 10:30 AM
Just curious, is it also a racket that the "non believers" or world makes the church take a large part of care for the homeless, needy, etc. then, when we should raise taxes and let the government to a worse job at it?

bluedogok
08-12-2009, 10:49 AM
It is good to hear that LC has integrity and does not charge for sermons, although I've never heard of a church that did.

What he is talking about are materials like handouts, videos, Powerpoint presentations, etc. for other churches or groups to use instead of packaging them and selling them like some other churches do.

HVAC Instructor
08-12-2009, 11:10 AM
Just curious, is it also a racket that the "non believers" or world makes the church take a large part of care for the homeless, needy, etc. then, when we should raise taxes and let the government to a worse job at it?

How many homeless shelters does LC operate?

metro
08-12-2009, 03:36 PM
Not sure since I'm not on staff, but we have hundreds of different ministries we fund. The one I DO know of is Mercy Ministries that caters to poor and needy over by N. Lincoln. We also help out and support regularly the City Rescue Mission and other local homeless shelters. We held a "Homeless Block Party" several months back with over 3000homeless in attendance.

Here is a link to our Mercy Ministries page, and a link if you want to get plugged in by helping us at the City Rescue Mission the 2nd Friday of every month.

LifeChurch.tv - NW Oklahoma City - LifeMissions - Mercy Ministries (http://noc.lifechurch.tv/lifemissions/mercy)

LifeChurch.tv - Edmond - Blog - City Rescue Mission-Second Friday of Every Month (http://edm.lifechurch.tv/blog/post/city-rescue-missionfebruary-13)

metro
08-12-2009, 03:39 PM
What he is talking about are materials like handouts, videos, Powerpoint presentations, etc. for other churches or groups to use instead of packaging them and selling them like some other churches do.

And the actual sermons (both the sermons in print form for pastors) or the actual video, as well as we provide at no cost video messages for churches around the world to use at no cost, if they want to give their pastor a break from preaching, or just to have the opportunity to have some of the world's greatest leading pastors speak at their church, that they otherwise could not afford to bring in. We also provide youth videos, kids videos, praise and worship videos and music and just about anything else you can think of at no cost. What a great way to give back to the Kingdom of God, that should be United as One (especially to the smaller churches who otherwise would never have the resources to do such quality materials.) Now that's the church at large coming together as one as talked about in Acts 2.

VideoTeaching.com (http://videoteaching.com/)

LifeChurch.tv - Free Church Resources (http://www.lifechurch.tv/free-church-resources)

Midtowner
08-12-2009, 04:02 PM
huh... i didn't know you were jewish.

-M

The OT tithe as IIRC was more of an income tax paid to the Levites (a landless tribe) which would in turn donate 10% of their income to the church.

The Catholic Church way back when decided that this meant they'd get 10% of everything.

It seems to me though that even under the OT, only 1% [10% of 10%] actually made it to the church since the Levites, while also administering the Temple, etc., also performed many ministerial governmental functions. Thus, only a 1% tithe seems to be justifiable.

possumfritter
08-12-2009, 04:17 PM
I have always believed the best way to get the "message" out is to simply live your life the way the "Mesenger" taught us. If someone is drawn to you by the way you live your life, then you have done exactly what you should have been doing and you are free to share your beliefs with them.

On top of that, those that do follow the "Mesenger," ought to accept the fact that everyone has a right to believe as they do and to accept their beliefs.

Finally, I have to add, I stopped attending churches in the metro area because of the fact that they were not teaching from the Book, but rather from their wallets. I just got tired of it to be quite honest with you.

That's my two cents.