Religion is Bovine Scat [Archive]

HVAC Instructor

08-08-2009, 03:55 PM

Anyone who takes the time to start a thread like this is either trying to be provocative or is being intolerant. You can't have it both ways to post a thread that has a titloe attacking religion and then claim "don't judge me" and demand respect for YOUR beliefs. This is a notice me, notice me thread if I ever saw one. Okay, you got noticed. If you can't stand the heat, don't post stuff like this and then whine when people respond the way you clearly intended.

Chill ECO. I'm just having some fun here, and yes, I am being provacative. How perceptive of you! (Must be that lawyer training kicking in :poke: ) I happen to find humor in religion. I also find Christians to be among the most intolerant people on the planet next to Muslims. And you seem quite intolerant yourself sometimes.

And, my dear, I can indeed take the heat.

So, if you find yourself offended by this thread, ask yourself why. If you know that you know that your belief is correct, and everyone else is wrong, then just smile and ignore it....that is unless you really are not sure and the George Carlin video upsets you because your "faith" is really not as strong as you thought, and you actually have doubts.

BTW - I'm Agnostic. Agnostic is not the same as Atheist. Look it up. And look up ALL of the definitions before latching onto only one of them and making an incorrect ASSumption. Then, if you find yourself interested, and I'll explain my version of Agnosticism.

PennyQuilts

08-08-2009, 04:14 PM

Gawd what a boor.

HVAC Instructor

08-08-2009, 04:35 PM

Gawd what a boor.

:LolLolLol Come on ECO...You are a much better jouster than that! :LolLolLol

PennyQuilts

08-08-2009, 04:38 PM

Gawd what a boor.

Sorry, that was rude. I admit, I am decidedly intolerant of religious intolerance. Probably the pagan in me. It also sets my teeth on edge for people to preach to others about their internal belief systems absent a request for discussion. By that, I mean there are a lot of people out there who are extremely proud of their beliefs and want to tell the world. A lot of agnostics and atheists tend to do this but for the life of me, I can't imagine why anyone would think anyone else is really interested. That is a personal thing. Dragging other people into it strikes me as someone who is insecure in their beliefs and wants to bounce them off other people to see if they fit. Or convert them so they won't be alone or, and this is the usual one, show off that they aren't running with the crowd. In Oklahoma, that is sometimes hard to do. I get that. But really, it is alot like talking about your sex life. In the abstract, fine. Personal stuff, icky. Go pray or something and leave us out of it.

HVAC Instructor

08-08-2009, 04:58 PM

Sorry, that was rude. I admit, I am decidedly intolerant of religious intolerance. Probably the pagan in me. It also sets my teeth on edge for people to preach to others about their internal belief systems absent a request for discussion. By that, I mean there are a lot of people out there who are extremely proud of their beliefs and want to tell the world. A lot of agnostics and atheists tend to do this but for the life of me, I can't imagine why anyone would think anyone else is really interested. That is a personal thing. Dragging other people into it strikes me as someone who is insecure in their beliefs and wants to bounce them off other people to see if they fit. Or convert them so they won't be alone or, and this is the usual one, show off that they aren't running with the crowd. In Oklahoma, that is sometimes hard to do. I get that. But really, it is alot like talking about your sex life. In the abstract, fine. Personal stuff, icky. Go pray or something and leave us out of it.

Much better response ECO!

You are still making assumptions, however. But..I am thrilled to learn you are a pagan!!

OK, to your bolded quote above. You can't imagine why anyone is interested in anyone elses beliefs? Then why did you just tell me you are pagan? Do you want to convert me..LOL! And you invited yourself into this conversation, so there is nothing for me to leave you out of, is there?

This is an internet thread on a subject that I happen to be interested in. I have a few more provacative religious comedic videos to post at a later time, so prepare yourself.

You are quite the interesting character too! Not to get personal here...but since you brought it up...If you promise not to talk about your sex life, I promise not to talk about mine. Actually, I will not be talking about mine whether you talk about yours or not. :omg:

I am indeed looking for a discussion here. I realize I'm a noob here and you old heads feel compelled to challenge me. I'm OK with that. Just understand I'm up for the challenge. :fighting4

mmonroe

08-08-2009, 05:04 PM

Honestly, this forum is about Value, Morals, and all stuff Spiritual... i didn't see religion in that description.

oneforone

08-08-2009, 10:53 PM

HVAC Instructor

08-09-2009, 07:59 AM

In my honest opinion, people have a right to believe whatever they choose to believe or not to believe.

I am a Christian and your not. No skin off my nose. I will respect you for that provided you respect me for believing in God and Jesus Christ.

The only thing I may do is compare notes with you and see why you believe what you believe. I like to know why people see things they way they do. Most of the time I find people have not done their homework on politics or relgion. They believe one thing or another based on what they hear in the media or from friends that are full of BS.

Thank you OFO. That is all I am looking for is a discussion. I too want to know what others believe, how they came to believe it, and whether they still sometimes have doubts and questions about their beliefs.

Many people want their religious beliefs to be placed off limits to questioning for some reason. I do not understand this because if a belief is of a solid foundation, questions concerning that belief should not be able to crack that foundation.

PennyQuilts

08-09-2009, 08:08 AM

For many people, their religion is sincere and private, something between themselves and their god. They don't care what others believe and don't feel the need to explain themselves to others or debate the issues. It is not a haughty lack of care, simply an absence of needing to explain or convert.

IMO, once you start explaining how your theology "works," you are going to start getting into a man made swamp. God/Goddess, to my way of thinking, is way too big for puny mortals to explain, define or really understand. The second you go down that path, you are limiting it to your own understanding of how things work. For those of us like myself, it is just something you know in your soul. You learn to trust your instincts and work to shut up your inner self so you can hear something besides internal racket. The more involved your religion is, the more man has attempted to put his stamp on a force of nature. It is like erecting a skyscraper on the frozen tundra. It suits man, not the tundra. And tells you nothing about the tundra except for those places where man tries to control it for his own purposes.

evh5150

08-09-2009, 12:55 PM

for those who dont believe in any divine deity..you simply believe everything just exploded into perfection ala the big bang theory?

yeah, ..right...sure.

ive seen many things explode. never seen anything explode into flawless perfection.

going along the lines of what eastcoastokie is saying, i believe the end of the world will arrive when man's intelligence has achieved a level that he believes he can rationally explain everything, and with logical scientific blueprints to map it all out.

when adam and eve ate the apple they were told by the serpent beforehand that they would attain a level of intelligence akin to a god-like status. mankind's intellect increases everyday as we figure new things out, and learn about what we never knew before.

so one day, in the far-fetched future..we will have learned and discovered everything..literally everything. ..and thats when the world's demise will come, when not a single soul hardly believes in a god at all.

USG '60

08-09-2009, 02:40 PM

mmonroe

08-09-2009, 02:48 PM

I too am christian, I don't like to discuss manners about religion, but I do believe I am christian as not part of a religion, but as part of a relationship with God.

@evh I believe when the Bible talks about the serpent telling adam and eve that they would become to a "god like sense" that he was purely talking about knowing the difference between good and evil. At the time, Adam and Eve knew only good and not evil. It's why they were then aware of their nakedness and hid from one another and God.

mugofbeer

08-09-2009, 04:18 PM

HVAC Instructor

08-09-2009, 06:52 PM

[QUOTE=HVAC Instructor;245033]Can't add anything to that. Enjoy! :evilsmile

HVAC - if your goal is to get a discussion going, you used a pretty foul way of doing it. You made an assessment of religion and gave your opinion. You did it on an anonymous chat page but if you used that sort of method on the street and said "Hey buddy, your wife looks like Bovine Scat" you might not be alive right now. If you went to Saudi Arabia and said "Allah is Bovine Scat" your body might be in a dozen pieces and being dragged around the streets of the city. You have a pretty funny way of saying something and then expect people to be civil. I agree with the poster above, I think its more of a perverted way of making a big statement to compensate for something else that is small - and this is coming from an agnostic.

So Mugsy, are you telling me these good peaceful Christians on the street would physically harm me for daring to point out the utter ridiculosness of their fairytale they call a religion? And you point out the obvious of what Islamists would do. Beautiful! You just made the point perfectly as to why religion is bull****, specifically the Abrahamic religions.

So much for the concept of peaceful religion.

mmonroe

08-09-2009, 07:04 PM

HVAC Instructor

08-09-2009, 07:28 PM

who said all religion was peaceful? You can't tell me that there hasn't been at least one time that any religion, or lack of one, wasn't crazy or dangerous at one point in their existence of being a religion.

Exactly!! Both Islam and Christianity claim to be peaceful religions, but we all know better, although Christianity has managed to evolve beyond the violence it once openly advocated. Islam unfortunately has failed to evolve. Society can only hope religion eventually evolves out of existence or at least into a non intrusive form.

mugofbeer

08-09-2009, 07:54 PM

I think you are trying to twist what I said to support your obvious attempt to anger the Christian community out there. First, I never said anything about Christians attacking you on the street for your point of view. On the contrary, I think the vast majority of evangelicals out there would love to engage you in a discussion of religion and never, ever utter a foul word as long as you didn't attack them in some way. I know the same isn't true for evangelical or Islamists out there.

Second, I never said religion wasn't the cause of much of the world's strife. But the vast majority of Christians are tolerant of those who are not religious and don't try to force their religion on you. Of course, there are those who are intolerant and do try to force their morals and beliefs - but they are in a minority. I have different feelings about Islam but I have no doubt much of it is ignorance about the religion on my part.

Third, you seem to assume I am a Christian. I am also agnostic myself but I am not going to put someone down or insult their religion or their beliefs just because I find some silly pleasure out of it. Christianity has had a huge positive impact on our country and the world along with its significant negative impact.

Fourth, I never said Christianity is a peaceful religion. Christians are to turn the other cheek but Christians are not going to take the Ghandi route and do it until everything and everyone they know is destroyed. No where does it say Christians cannot defend themselves. I feel quite certain that if attacked by a muslim nation, virtually all Christians of this country would happily defend their faith, their families and their country. Of course the same is true for ANY country that attacks this one - Christians will be at the front of the line to defend it.

My entire statement was to show how hypocritically "intolerant" the point of your entire thread is and point out the fact that belief in anything, whether its religion, whether its politics, diet, exercise and fitness, ecology, homosexuality or 1000 other things - will always result in some number of people who take things to the extreme. Of the 325 million or so people in this country, a large percent call themselves Christian - for S's & G's say 200 million. With 200 million Christians, you are pretty likely to have 50 million or so who are pretty fundamentalist. Of those, there may be 3-5 million who are extremely devout and fundamentalist. Of those you will have a few hundred thousand who you might consider to be pretty off the wall. More Christians = more intolerant people. More nutritionistas = more calls for the end of McDonalds and Tex-mex food.

Bring up veganism and you will find hundreds of people who take it to the extreme and protest to stop people from eating meat (as if that is going to stop anyone). Go to a gay pride parade and you will find people who demand homosexuality taught in school and want textbooks to mention the gender preference of those discussed. You will find factions who hate men (period). You will also find factions who support the rights of children to have sexual relations with adult men (NAMBLA). There are extremists everywhere and when you make hostile statements about religion such as you did on this thread, you risk looking rather extremist and hateful yourself. If you want to live a good agnostic life, try starting with tolerance.

Don't sit there and try to say that Christians are more intolerant than another group. Personally, I find left-leaning entertainers and 20-something political activists to be the most hypocritical and intolerant people around. Exactly how and why is it you equate Christianity with pacifism and unwillingness to defend itself?

PennyQuilts

08-09-2009, 08:03 PM

Mug, I so enjoy your thoughtful, real and reasonable posts.

mugofbeer

08-09-2009, 08:06 PM

Thank you. I just enjoy good, respectful debate. There are things I am pretty intolerant about too, though, admittedly.

HVAC Instructor

08-09-2009, 08:38 PM

Don't sit there and try to say that Christians are more intolerant than another group. Personally, I find left-leaning entertainers and 20-something political activists to be the most hypocritical and intolerant people around. Exactly how and why is it you equate Christianity with pacifism and unwillingness to defend itself?

You twist just as much, no more, than you accuse me of doing. The discussion here is religion, not gays, not NAMBLA nor any of the other strawman arguments you just put forth in your verbose reply. And I did not say nor assume you were a Christian. I actually read your post, did you actually read mine? Further, how you assume I equate Christianity with an unwillingness to defend itself is beyond me. Didn't say it. Didn't imply it. I was responding to your implication that I would not say to a Christian face to face that their religion is a fairytale, but you put it into the context of insulting someones wife. Verbosity does not a well thought out reply make.

Bottom line, all religion is man made and has no basis in fact or historical or archeological evidence to back up the existence of a divine being, period. That is the discussion here, not veganism or any of the other ism's you have attempted to get this thread off track with.

mugofbeer

08-09-2009, 09:16 PM

HVAC - enjoyed the debate but I am done for the nite. See you next time.

mmonroe

08-09-2009, 10:12 PM

Unfortunately sometimes people speak of stereotyped groups because well, thats how everyone else speaks about them. They're uneducated on the real facts and only believe what they hear. It's like you say the word pagan and a lot of people would instinctively think about the devil and spells and whatever. When in fact pagans are not like that at all. It's the same as when someone hears the word christian. They instantly think of the stereotyped generation of christians who are "older" and still educated with the thoughts of the 1940's and sometimes results in naming the same christian denomination as the hypocritical, backwards thinking, bible thumping, trouble makers.

I believe in God, and I believe in Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior but I don't like to tell people that. 2 reasons. They instantly think i'm going to try and press what I have between me and my God on them, and they also write me off as some fanatical. Of course, the same backwards thinking hypocrits who call themselves christians blame me for not sharing my relationship with God with others and they quote the Bible at me all day long, and sometimes even out of context saying that I should go out and tell all nations and everyone I meet. The problem is, people have gone about it the wrong way and people don't like to deal with that and it's increasingly becoming a put off from someone learning about christianity than bringing them to learn about christianity.

I agree that religion is man made.. who else but man to think of trying to place something as far beyond understand as a God into some sort of rules or reasons for being and trying to prove those instances with science and logical reasoning.

geez... i guess i could go on, but it's late and I leave for florida in 6 hours.

mmonroe

08-09-2009, 10:18 PM

You twist just as much, no more, than you accuse me of doing. The discussion here is religion, not gays, not NAMBLA nor any of the other strawman arguments you just put forth in your verbose reply.

It's called comparing for better understanding. Sometimes it takes a comparative look at two different things and the way they coincide with one another to better understand the point that is being put across.

PennyQuilts

08-10-2009, 06:25 AM

Bottom line, all religion is man made and has no basis in fact or historical or archeological evidence to back up the existence of a divine being, period.

Well, so we know your position. No need for further discussion on this thread.

HVAC Instructor

08-10-2009, 06:57 AM

Well, so we know your position. No need for further discussion on this thread.

At least no further discussion from you counselor, jury and judge.

PennyQuilts

08-10-2009, 07:07 AM

At least no further discussion from you counselor, jury and judge.

Look, why bother to keep trying to post on something that you are just going to attack if it doesn't jive with your personal belief system? It is a sure-fire way to quash discussion. You've turned this thread into your very own soapbox in the guise of open discussion. You've made it clear that you have no respect for Abrahamic religions but you are tolerant of others. Got it. We now know what you think/believe, which was apparently the purpose of this post all along.

HVAC Instructor

08-10-2009, 08:09 AM

Look, why bother to keep trying to post on something that you are just going to attack if it doesn't jive with your personal belief system? It is a sure-fire way to quash discussion. You've turned this thread into your very own soapbox in the guise of open discussion. You've made it clear that you have no respect for Abrahamic religions but you are tolerant of others. Got it. We now know what you think/believe, which was apparently the purpose of this post all along.
ECO - It is you who is on the attack, following me from thread to thread, passing your judgement as if you are the high-queen of OKC Talk. Kind of feels like a case of forum stalking. You do not address the issue, you only attack the poster.

Give it a rest, or get on the topic and off of me personally please.

PennyQuilts

08-10-2009, 08:36 AM

I haven't followed you - these are just topics that are interesting to me. Check it out and you will see that, historically, this has been an interest of mine.

You seem to want to be able to say whatever you want with no blow back. This isn't about attacking you, rather, you have been the one attacking those that disagree with your religious beliefs. All I said was that there seems to be no point in trying to have discussion because as soon as someone disagrees with you, their religion gets labeled BS (assuming they have a religion you don't support). My own religion, of course, is okay because it isn't Christian - apparently. But you don't have to be Christian to recognize intolerance when you see it.

dismayed

08-10-2009, 08:10 PM

Often times I think far too much is made of the religious aspects of "religious wars." History shows us that at the core of even the Crusades was a tremendous amount of political intrigue and struggle for the control of nations, and for the most part such wars were really a battle over land more than anything else.

Even with Muslims today many of the same things are happening, the average person is being manipulated by the powerful who are twisting their religion in an attempt to gain power and land.

Make no mistake, this is an element of humanity that will always find a way to extort its power over men, whether it is through religion, the political process, the media or massive corporate interests. To blame religion itself for these problems is as illogical as blaming liberty.

USG '60

08-10-2009, 08:53 PM

gmwise

08-11-2009, 04:44 AM

I think ECO is a depressed, bitter,older woman.
I think she wants to be a admin of the site and this shows why she must not be one.
Its ok to disagree with someone, but to descend to name calling by private messages, in a effort to provoke the same from others and then she claims innocence.
I dont buy she's practicing, in the area of law.Maybe in the area of gossip and backbiting

PennyQuilts

08-11-2009, 05:07 AM

Martin

08-11-2009, 05:12 AM

gmwise, stick to the topic. -M

USG '60

08-11-2009, 05:43 AM

Psilocin

08-15-2009, 11:41 PM

George Carlin, one of my heroes. He will be missed. :<

On to the point!
Before I start, I would like to point out that I try my best to be have as little bias in discussions like this as possible. Unfortunately, my main bias is that I end up arguing against who I see as the more passionate side... Because being the Devil's advocate is so much fun.

Bottom line, all religion is man made and has no basis in fact or historical or archeological evidence to back up the existence of a divine being, period.
Eh?
You say that so assuredly. Most of the places described in the Bible are actual places and have been found to have historical importance. Along with this, there are practices in other religious/spiritual beliefs like meditation and yoga that have been shown to improve physical and psychological health. The Hindi psychological systems made several thousand years ago could also be called more accurate and helpful than Western psychological systems... But, then again, it's not difficult to be better than throwing emotionally numbing drugs at someone and saying "This will fix your problems!"

I'm gettin' off-topic.

There are also very interesting scientific discoveries that actually support the idea of a "One-ness." The point isn't that there's a "Divine being" but that "All" is divine and one. Simple reasoning can lead one to the idea that everything is one... By simply saying all contributes to the existence of all.

I don't believe that there is a God. I believe everything is God. It's funny and uncanny how the Horus/Jesus/Buddha archetypes always have the same message, even though they all supposedly lived in 2,000 year gaps to eachother, in different parts of the world. Of course, none of this can be proven by regular means. This is where it requires faith...

But doesn't anything require faith?
Yeah, I'm throwing out the "Is reality REALLY how you see it?" argument... because I'm a big, mean jerk and I rather have a stalemate than a loss. >=P

Sun

08-17-2009, 12:57 PM

This thread is pretty dumb. Even though Im agnostic I respect this sub forum and the people who post on here even if we dont have the same beliefs. i'd advise you to do the same!:053:

gtinms

08-19-2009, 05:07 PM

To each his own.

I'm working on my post count, but HVAC, Psilocin, any Carlin fans, check out a coupla comics who share the same mindset as George. I can't post links, but on youtube, search for Doug Stanhope and Bill Hicks. I think you'll enjoy them.

-Jonathan

DaveSkater

08-20-2009, 02:44 PM

I'm Presbyterian, not so much as because I think my form of religion is better than yours, but because my family was Presbyterian. Since I'm a caucasian male, and my heritage is "historically and politically abhorred", I can be a part of something that transcends my current generation.

I'm a scientifically reasoning person. I try to place logic with everything I learn. To logically and scientifically believe in God and Jesus Christ is a stretch. In that stretch is faith, and that faith is woven by my family members and ancestors that I love and hold or remember dearly.

So you don't believe. Good for you, and I couldn't care less. So I do believe. What's it to you? Why is it a point of contention?

To me, God is family. Jesus was the Son. He set the example for the rest of our lawless, murderous and sinning generations to come how to act. Was he made up by man? Perhaps. And then again perhaps not. None of us alive today know for sure. Will he come again? Perhaps, perhaps not. Again, none of us alive today know for sure. At the end of an awful day, or in the cold December of an old soul's days, if it brings peace and comfort for them, why on earth would you go out of your way to critisize him or her for believing?

I also believe in Reincarnation, of a sorts. At least there some psuedo science can be inferred. Such as hypnotic regressions and people speaking in languages they didn't know, about subjects they couldn't understand. (edgar casey) It can also exist with Christianity. (or other religions even)

I never could understand why someone had to put someone elses beliefs down. That's like questioning my lineage. Which is never advisable.

HVAC Instructor

08-20-2009, 07:17 PM

PennyQuilts

08-20-2009, 07:31 PM

It isn't about shaking faith. That is a really a bit condescending and denotes that you just don't get it. It is just that it is disrespectful to people. You are anti religion - don't even try to suggest you are neutral because you've been pretty hateful and mean spirited about it. We can't know why you feel this way and it doesn't really matter. But before you belittle someone about the strength of their faith, you might want to consider that you may not really understand where they are coming from. This anti religion mission you seem to be on seems pretty self indulgent. What do you care if other people have their faith? No one is making you believe that way. It may well be a comfort to them. You are entitled to your beliefs but belittling others seems sort of pointless and sad.

HVAC Instructor

08-20-2009, 07:55 PM