View Full Version : Video Tour of Bricktown Retail



Steve
08-04-2009, 03:38 PM
I've been thinking a lot about how everyone knocks Bricktown for not having any retail. But have you ever considered what shops are open and what they offer?
Moderators, I've tried to post the videos here but without any luck and would be happy to have the videos reposted here at www.okctalk.com. In the meantime, you can watch the videos, including the latest on the Bricktown Candy Co., at http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2009/08/04/video-tour-of-bricktown-retail/

Doug Loudenback
08-04-2009, 06:51 PM
Steve, the only videos that can be inserted in this forum are YouTube videos. That's because the forum's software has html code turned OFF.

Pete
08-04-2009, 08:39 PM
Thanks for that, Steve.

Just points out there are lots of great local enterprises around downtown that need our support.

Steve
08-04-2009, 08:43 PM
Pete, for what it's worth, because the videos come with ads, I'm pretty sure The Oklahoman is cool with them being reposted. I really tried to figure out how to get them posted directly on this site, but to no avail

Pete
08-04-2009, 08:53 PM
BTW, the reason we don't enable HTML in the forums is because to do so would seriously compromise the security of the site.

This recommendation comes in the strongest possible terms from vBulletin customer support.

Steve
08-04-2009, 08:56 PM
That makes a lot of sense.

bbhill
08-04-2009, 08:58 PM
Great videos.

Got me hungry for gummy bears. grr

BailJumper
08-05-2009, 06:40 AM
But have you ever considered what shops are open and what they offer?

Yeah, I consider them lousy and no draw at all. You can get $200 jeans or tourist crap. I've walked Bricktown many times and the criticism is there for a reason. There is no substantial retail in Bricktown. But I blame the property owners who think their property is lined in gold and want unreasonable rent rates. But, who am I to vent? I'm just a consumer.

metro
08-05-2009, 07:20 AM
I'm with BDP. While it is important to support what we have, it's kitche stuff for the most part and not real retail that will draw.

Steve
08-05-2009, 08:02 AM
What kind of retail do you want down there?

metro
08-05-2009, 08:07 AM
I know myself as well as many others are anti-chain when possible (mainly for restaurants), but when it comes to clothing, most people like designer labels, not mom and pop clothing or handmade tourist knick-knack items. Sorry, but for downtown retail to take off, we're going to have to see some major retailers (Barnes & Noble, Express, Gap, Armani Exchange, Blockbuster, Victorias Secret, Steve Madden, Apple Store, H&M, and other major retailers that we have and don't have.) We need a mix of things we do have that are common and people can come downtown to shop (or us downtowners don't have to leave downtown to get decent clothing) as well (remember thousands of visitors and conventioners are used to these brands and have money they want to blow), as well as we need a mix of retailers that we don't have in this market yet that will be a regional draw for locals.

Steve
08-05-2009, 10:02 AM
OK, but here's the thing. If you want books, the Red Dirt Emporium has a decent selection of local books - it's a s start. Ditto for DVDs and music. If you're looking for Blockbuster to open up downtown, you're going to be disappointed. This is a chain that is likely going to disappear all together. As for some of the other names - geez, it sounds like a suburban mall metro.

metro
08-05-2009, 10:13 AM
Thats where people shop, at name brand retailers. I think you're missing my point. Yes ideally we want unique local shops and high end national retailers, but to get those, again we can hash this out until eternity, but it's chicken and egg, you won't get high end or enough locals, without safe national names like Gap, Express, Victorias Secret, Barnes & Noble, etc. No offense to Urbanized, but you can't compare Red Dirt to Barnes & Noble or Full Circle.

Steve
08-05-2009, 10:18 AM
I disagree. The egg is local. And what it will take is someone to go out and recruit the right mix of local retail and for building owners to be realistic in lease prices (something I'm starting to see some movement on). And nobody is comparing to Red Dirt to Barnes & Noble or Full Circle. But I think if someone were smart and added a used book store down there, you could have a pretty decent shopping experience in terms of book buying. When I travel, I have no desire to shop at the stores you mention.

Pete
08-05-2009, 10:45 AM
Local owners are far more likely to be urban pioneers on the retail front, as they want to be part of an area of town, have a passion for these neighborhoods, fall in love with a particular building, etc.

When it comes to site selection for chains, it's pure, heartless demographic analysis.

And we all know that the numbers in OKC's core right now do not add up.


Thank goodness for the locals that are already downtown. They are the ones trying to get a foothold and form a foundation that others can build upon.

Steve
08-05-2009, 10:48 AM
Here's what I see coming over the next couple of years - IF - AND ONLY IF - people support the retailers already downtown. I see a used bookstore. I see some antiques and collectables stores. I see more local clothing stores (I'm not sure why LIT didn't work when it was ok in Deep Deuce for a couple years. Clayton's simply missed the market). I see opportunities for the kind of stores Metro would thumb his nose at but tourists want -stores that sell Western wear and trinkets, stuff like that. I even see the potential for a niche toy store.

CCOKC
08-05-2009, 11:40 AM
What about art galleries? I am thinking about places like Taos NM or Eureka Springs AR.

Steve
08-05-2009, 01:31 PM
Bricktown has had them before and they weren't supported. There is one artist with a small shop now in the Miller Jackson building next to Hooters.

BailJumper
08-05-2009, 03:31 PM
I'm with Metro.

Steve, I appreciate your sentiment but that artsy dreamy mushy Bricktown you envision will never arrive.

Personally, I want to see a CVS or Walgreens in the immediate downtown area soon.

"Used book store"? Talk about your dying niche retailers. A used book store would never be able to pay their rent in Bricktown. I would however support a B&N with coffee shop.

We need one building with a visionary owner to push to get 7-8 retailers to all open at the same time. That means great marketing to both chains and local owners and offering rent incentives to get them to open shop. With a retail core in one building you might be able to assure that most, if not all, survive.

Steve
08-05-2009, 03:35 PM
I'm not saying that's the mix I want; I'm saying that's what I suspect we'll see based on various conversations and observations.
Will we ever see a CVS or Walgreens downtown? Not sure. Maybe more likely in the Oklahoma Health Center. But even that would be a deviation from their required minimum rooftops.
You can be with Metro - that doesn't bother me. But there's a fundamental disconnect between the perception of retail development displayed by posters on this site and from what I hear talking to developers and retail experts.

BailJumper
08-05-2009, 03:55 PM
Hmmm, and which is more critical to successful retail? "Developers" and "retail experts" or consumer perception? I firmly believe perception is the reality. If people perceive Bricktown has no convenient parking, it doesn't matter that there is actually an abundance of parking, people will avoid Bricktown because of the perception.

If consumers perceive there is no retail in Bricktown then consumers will not specifically go to Bricktown for shopping.

I've been in Red Dirt and do not believe for a second they've ever been profitable.

Steve
08-05-2009, 04:14 PM
No doubt consumer perception is important, Bailjumper. But sometimes I see things on this board that aren't well rooted in reality. Sorry if I've got to be the guy who throws out the challenges and questions, but it's in my DNA.

evh5150
08-05-2009, 05:55 PM
in order for any retail to really take off..its going to have to all be clustered together and easily accessible from the epicenter of bricktown..especially, be convienently accessible from the canal.

what i envision that would work would be either a two or three tier/storied crescent-shaped large pedestrian-only brick & mortar (ala bricktown style) shopping center enclave on opposite sides of the canal and are linked together by a large, wide pedestrian-only bridge that spans over the canal. each enclave would feature about 10 shops on each story, so you could have either 20 stores, or 30 stores on each side of the canal. there would be wide staircases to get to the upper floors, and concrete ramps for the handicapped.or maybe just do without the stairs altogether and just use the gently ascending ramps for all.



the bridge spanning over the canal would be of a transparent material (glass, fiberglass, etc) that would allow shoppers to see boats passing underneath them as the make their way over to the opposite crescent's shops. the bridge would be adorned with florescent pastel neon lights at night and some moderate plants along the bridge.

this whole center should be built within close proximity of the harkins theatres and nearby restaurants, so it can benefit from their current traffic, and also add a surge to their existing sales as well.

at the top of each building crescent, there would be a large illuminated marquee facade that would say something like "The Shops at Bricktown" or "Bricktown Plaza" etc

metro
08-06-2009, 09:04 AM
I'm not saying that's the mix I want; I'm saying that's what I suspect we'll see based on various conversations and observations.
Will we ever see a CVS or Walgreens downtown? Not sure. Maybe more likely in the Oklahoma Health Center. But even that would be a deviation from their required minimum rooftops.
You can be with Metro - that doesn't bother me. But there's a fundamental disconnect between the perception of retail development displayed by posters on this site and from what I hear talking to developers and retail experts.

No offense, but doesn't this statement somewhat contradict your other statement above? Also I'm pretty sure the HSC already has Walgreens, just inside existing buildings. Most people don't know St. Anthony's has two Walgreens inside their physicians buildings.


I disagree. The egg is local. And what it will take is someone to go out and recruit the right mix of local retail and for building owners to be realistic in lease prices (something I'm starting to see some movement on).

Patrick
08-06-2009, 10:30 AM
I'm somewhat torn on this issue. Although I'd prefer for Bricktown to be made up of mostly local tenants, I think we might need a few more national retailers to locate downtown to serve as retail anchors. I think a CVS/Walgreens located on the canal (San Antonio has one) would be a good option. At the same time though, think of any downtown, mainstreet America, and you don't see stores you'd find in any suburban mall. You usually see local restaurants, local dime stores and pharmacies, local hardware stores, local clothing stores, etc.

Pete
08-06-2009, 10:35 AM
You guys may remember that I talked to the people at Walgreens about a year ago and they said downtown wasn't even close to meeting their criteria.

This is the sort of reaction you can expect from any retail chain... They have limited resources and prioritize expansion based on demographics and coverage. All you have to do is run a simple demographic study for that area and it would be immediately eliminated.

BTW, nobody has mentioned we already have a major chain downtown: Bass Pro. Of course, the only way that happened was due to substantial subsidies.

Urbanized
08-10-2009, 07:05 PM
I've been in Red Dirt and do not believe for a second they've ever been profitable.
So if you’re wrong about this, does it mean that you’re wrong about everything else?

For years I sat around, much like some of the people in this thread, and thought (and told others) “someone should do something about getting retail in Bricktown…” or “they’re doing it all wrong, I would do it the right way,” and then realized that a bunch of talk and negativity was just that. So I did something about it. I got partners and put my ideas to work. I’ve said it before on this board, if anybody has a retail concept for Bricktown that they think can’t miss and reasonable financial wherewithal, PM me and I’ll do everything I can to help you put YOUR ideas into practice. I can guarantee you that I can get you with people down here who will find great retail space for you at a very fair price.

The “high rent” knock on Bricktown may have applied in 1999 and the early part of this decade, but it’s mostly urban legend at this point, if you ask me. I'm CERTAIN that it is cheaper than rent at any mall that’s not on life support. If you’re looking at 500-1,500 feet, which is probably optimal for locally-based retail, I would say rent would be almost inconsequential in the overall scheme of things. By far the bigger challenge than reasonable rent is finding someone willing to divide a large floor plate, but there are definitely some here who would be willing to do so or who already have space this size.

By the way, not that I am going to divulge actual numbers, but after a little over six months of moderate investment during the build-out, stocking and opening of our store, we have not had to put another dime into it and have minimal debt. The last time we had to put new money into the operation was in March of 2008. We actually could have sat back and begun recording profit at that point, but since then we have repeatedly reinvested pretty much everything earned back into the store, its fixtures and its inventory. If you look at photos of the store today versus 2007 I think that is quite evident. Now out of the building and significant re-investing mode, we saw our first official profit shortly after 18 months of business. I think that is excellent by anybody’s standards for a startup business. We are more than confident in the long-term, ongoing viability and profitability of the store. Hope that clears it up for you.

Urbanized
08-10-2009, 07:25 PM
I have some more thoughts on this subject that I'll try to put together. Being (as far as I know) the only Bricktown retailer who posts on this board, I guess I have a unique perspective on the matter.

Steve
08-11-2009, 08:36 AM
Uh-oh, someone is trying inject facts into this discussion. And with this I predict the thread will die.

BailJumper
08-11-2009, 02:31 PM
Uh-oh, someone is trying inject facts into this discussion. And with this I predict the thread will die.

Oh Steve, quite the journalist you are. If you don't agree with the banter its all fable but if you do then its all fact. I remember the same spewing by other Bricktown establishments proclaiming all is fine and then weeks later they were gone.

I stand by my non-fact based assessment that I highly doubt Red Dirt is a money maker. Not that it isn't a pretty cool store for a tourist trap, I just don't see the math adding up. Could I be wrong? Certainly. Have I pegged most of the Bricktown businesses in the past? You bet.

Urbanized
08-11-2009, 02:44 PM
Maybe you should ask Steve if I have ever lied to him about business conditions, good or bad, in the more than ten years that I have known him.

metro
08-11-2009, 02:49 PM
Oh Steve, quite the journalist you are. If you don't agree with the banter its all fable but if you do then its all fact. I remember the same spewing by other Bricktown establishments proclaiming all is fine and then weeks later they were gone.

I agree, the board has had quite a Daily Oklahoman spin on it as of late.

Steve
08-11-2009, 03:30 PM
I agree, the board has had quite a Daily Oklahoman spin on it as of late.

Not sure what you mean by that. I've been a member of this site since 2005. I understand the cynicism in this instance - some businesses have been less than honest. But I've been seeing good traffic at the Red Dirt Emporium, and by the way, the Bricktown Candy Co. Can observation alone determine whether a business owner is being honest about their store's success? Of course not. But in this case you've got one anonymous person claiming it's a failure and the business owner stating it's making money.

I'm representing only what I hear, see and observe. Take it or leave it.

Urbanized
08-11-2009, 03:39 PM
Well, I really have nothing to gain by fibbing to locals, being a tourist trap and all. :wink:

Urbanized
08-12-2009, 01:41 PM
OK, before I post up the lengthy diatribe that I typed out last night about my views on Bricktown retail, the specific ideas behind our store and why I'm pretty confident that it will defy the "retail curse" in Bricktown, let me ask the following questions. If you and I have already discussed the first few questions in person, please don't spoil it by giving the answers.


What current retail operation in Bricktown would you describe as the oldest, the most long-lasting?
What would you say is the SECOND oldest?
What retail operation (don't limit yourself to free-standing) more than doubled its square footage not long after opening, and why do you think they did so?
Even if a long-running retailer doesn't meet your own definition of a "great" or even an "appropriate" retailer for Bricktown or downtown, can anything be learned from their longevity?
Can anything be learned from the failure of other retailers in Bricktown?
Is it possible that maybe -- JUST MAYBE -- there is something (or things) at work in this district besides the ever-popular assumption that lack of retail is all the fault of the stereotyped greedy Bricktown property owner bogeyman?
What do you think is the most underappreciated and overlooked group of people who utilize Bricktown, when it comes to planning, business startups, and discussions like these?

Doug Loudenback
08-12-2009, 02:32 PM
I hate tests. :fighting2 :ohno: :Smiley127

Steve
08-12-2009, 02:48 PM
I dare Metro and Bailjumper to take on the challenge!

donbroncho
08-13-2009, 08:24 PM
Hmm Steve no one has taken on your challenge. I am not going to even try because I am very ignorant about the subject. I really do want to see someone try though...

donbroncho
08-13-2009, 08:28 PM
OOPs not your challenge Steve, the Red Dirt Emporium owners...my bad

Steve
08-13-2009, 08:29 PM
Um, yeah.... pair this up with the time I posted an invitation for folks with some opinions about Bricktown to discuss their thoughts one-on-one with Bricktown Association director Jim Cowan. That thread suddenly went dead too.

Doug Loudenback
08-13-2009, 08:38 PM
Bump. Guess I'm not alone in hating tests.

Steve
08-13-2009, 08:46 PM
What current retail operation in Bricktown would you describe as the oldest, the most long-lasting?
What would you say is the SECOND oldest?
What retail operation (don't limit yourself to free-standing) more than doubled its square footage not long after opening, and why do you think they did so?
Even if a long-running retailer doesn't meet your own definition of a "great" or even an "appropriate" retailer for Bricktown or downtown, can anything be learned from their longevity?
Can anything be learned from the failure of other retailers in Bricktown?

I know the answers...

Doug Loudenback
08-14-2009, 03:49 AM
Good for you. I still hate tests.

BailJumper
08-14-2009, 07:33 AM
I'm representing only what I hear, see and observe. Take it or leave it.

Yeah the ladies around the watercooler in my office apply that same logic to their facts too!

Steve
08-14-2009, 02:52 PM
Bailjumper, not sure the ladies at the watercooler are attending meetings, looking at documents and talking to those directly involved. Of course, I say this to yet another anonymous person on the internet.
Take it or leave it for what it's worth. For what it's worth, Chad has actually offered to let me look at his books to verify his store is making a profit. Not sure that would make any impression with you or not.

donbroncho
08-14-2009, 07:53 PM
So Steve, when do we get the answers to the test? I think we all failed it lol. And speaking of Bricktown retail, just tried out the Bricktown Candy Company(yes i know theres a thread about it). That place will succeed. Super nice guy that runs it, as Im sure you can attest to. Will be back...

Steve
08-14-2009, 09:23 PM
So Steve, when do we get the answers to the test? I think we all failed it lol. And speaking of Bricktown retail, just tried out the Bricktown Candy Company(yes i know theres a thread about it). That place will succeed. Super nice guy that runs it, as Im sure you can attest to. Will be back...


If Metro and Bailjumper say it's ok, I'll take a stab at it.

Urbanized
08-15-2009, 02:50 PM
Well, as far as the "look at my books" comment, while I would indeed let Steve look at them because I have known him for years and trust him, it was more of a flippant comment in a personal conversation regarding this thread; "heck, I'll SHOW you my books." I wasn't really meaning that he would then report back to the people here. I don't give a tinker's damn whether someone on the innerwebs thinks we're turning a profit or not. It's inconsequential.

What IS consequential is what my accountant and my partners think. Suffice to say that, especially in light of the past two quarters, we're looking for other ways to expand and even start new ventures. We took a very steady, studied, conservative approach to starting a retail operation down here, and it has paid off.

I also think the fact that we knew the answers to the questions above -- obviously, few others do, not only those on this board but also many of those who have tried to invest here -- helps us considerably. Beyond that, we almost surely know the Bricktown VISITOR market better than any other businesspeople in the district. That's not a boast, just a consequence of our other, 10-year business experience here. That is what gave us a leg up when building a business in an especially tricky market for retail, I believe.

I hate to say it, but I think most failed business down here were started on gut feelings, unrealistic enthusiasm, poor planning and a lack of understanding of how Bricktown really functions from a business standpoint.

Do I want to see some great nationals give a shot in the arm to the retail mix down here? Absolutely. It will only help what we are doing. But WE have to be here first. By "we" I don't mean my store specifically; I mean multiple independent retailers like mine. It is the nature of urban infill and destination retail development as opposed to mall retail development.

You can believe me, you can believe the Main Street and downtown development training that I had during the mid-late '90s and early part of this decade, you can believe the retail development experts that I have spoken with, and those that I know Steve has spoken with, you can believe the many books on the subject, and you can believe the retail consultants that the City, the Chamber and Bricktown have employed and worked with recently, or not. It's really that simple.

How's that for "spewing?"

Steve
08-15-2009, 03:00 PM
The Internet: Where everybody is the expert.

Urbanized
08-15-2009, 03:10 PM
Well, I might not have as much experience at dogging people out on the Internet, but I DO own an retail store in Bricktown that is about to celebrate its second birthday. Maybe that counts for something.

Nah, probably not...