View Full Version : Galleria Mall - Downtown



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Pete2
08-03-2009, 01:38 PM
Just curious - why was the proposed galleria mall downtown never built?

Oil Capital
08-03-2009, 10:04 PM
Just curious - why was the proposed galleria mall downtown never built?

Short Answer: Oil Bust

Jesseda
08-04-2009, 07:15 AM
sad but true, i thought a downtwon mall would have been great, maybe still a chance one would be great out there.. downtown shopping seems fun to me

Watson410
08-04-2009, 07:23 AM
I think it would be cool to have an outdoor mall, east of the ballpark. Similar to what they tried to do a year or two ago... Honestly, just bulldozing those metal buildings would cool too.... Talk about an eyesore!!

Steve
08-04-2009, 07:53 AM
It was far more than the oil bust. The entire concept was flawed from the start and the developer who was tasked with making it happen was really more interested in building office towers and in the end he admitted he unqualified to do a retail project. For what it's worth, we were very lucky the mall never got built: it would have almost certainly been a bust.

Jesseda
08-04-2009, 07:56 AM
i think it would be nice to have a opened air shopping plaza or at least convert two or three downtown building that are side by side each other into something like 50 penn place.. I would love to shop in a downtown atmosphere. to bad the underground wants wider and and higher ceilings it would bea nice little mall

OKCTalker
08-04-2009, 08:13 AM
That was a big bullet we dodged. A massive, failed downtown retail project would have diverted resources and attention from Bricktown, downtown and MAPS, and would have stalled (if not entirely killed) the eventual success of all three. It would have been akin to having another Skirvin around our necks, which by itself caused tremendous teeth-gnashing and conflict among business, civic and political leaders. I believe that we wouldn't be anywhere near the city we are today had this project moved forward.

Jesseda
08-04-2009, 08:46 AM
so you are saying its good not to have retail center in downtown? even though a lot of building are turning into apartments and/or condos?

Pete
08-04-2009, 09:14 AM
Remember, the Sheraton Century Center was an enclosed mall when it opened in the 70's... Complete with an FAO Schwartz toy store and a bunch of other retail tenants.

Failed miserably.

OKCTalker
08-04-2009, 09:16 AM
Jesseda - I didn't say that at all. What I said was that if the Galleria retail complex would have been built when planned - in the early-1980's - it would have wreaked economic havoc in the CBD. But I will continue with two additional points relevant to today: 1. There is no current economic justification for multi-tenant retail in the CBD (new or rehab); and 2. Recent residential developments have had a mixed record of success, with apartments more highly-occupied than condominiums.

Doug Loudenback
08-04-2009, 09:19 AM
It's NOT good not to have retail downtown. The proposed galleria was thought of as re-attracting suburban mall shoppers to downtown, not that it would have accomplished that. The old home-grown larger retailers (like Brown's, Rothschild's) right off the sidewalk are things of the past, as are the elegant single-screen movie houses. But, the old fussy, dirty, chaotic, have a great walk downtown ... that's what I miss. Could it return? Could a modern day Criterion come to be? Probably not, but, then, I would never have imagined Bricktown happening, either.

Jesseda
08-04-2009, 09:26 AM
i moved here as a a kid in the 80's, i did not know they had a downtown mall with a fao schartz store ( which to me is the best toy store in the united states, cant believe we lost it or even had it here in okc) i just think it would be nice to have store onlong the streets of downtown, window shopping during christmas and stuff like that, i hope bricktown gets some more retail along the river, and some more named retaurants, i would love to seea pappadeux in bricktown alongthe canal and unique stores like bath junkie, basins, a oklahoma store everything made in oklahoma from salsa to quilts.

Martin
08-04-2009, 09:31 AM
...a oklahoma store everything made in oklahoma from salsa to quilts.

well... there is red dirt emporium. -M

Steve
08-04-2009, 10:12 AM
At this point, I think Urbanized is welcome to plug his store.....

Jesseda
08-04-2009, 10:26 AM
i looked at the red idrt emporium web site, i might need to check there store out, i havent been to bricktown on the canal area in a couple years, so i might when it cools down go takea look around (hate the oklahoma heat)

Urbanized
08-04-2009, 12:33 PM
well... there is red dirt emporium. -M
Thanks!

At this point, I think Urbanized is welcome to plug his store.....
Looks like you guys have it covered.

I will, however put up a link to the store's website (http://www.reddirtemporium.com/), which has some two-year-old store photos and a smattering of our overall selection listed online. Stay tuned for lots more to appear before the holiday shopping season.

Oh, and you can follow us on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Oklahoma-City-OK/Oklahomas-Red-Dirt-Emporium/49732206261), or on Twitter (http://twitter.com/reddirtemporium) (@reddirtemporium (http://twitter.com/reddirtemporium)).

Wait...were those plugs?

mugofbeer
08-04-2009, 01:03 PM
Large-scale downtown retail has rarely been a success except in highly urbanized cities such as NYC or Chicago. You must have a VERY large population to support it, especially for those not living downtown and faced with the option of driving to a mall to Macy's or going downtown - most would just drive to the mall. I agree that, looking back, we should thank our lucky stars the downtown Galleria wasn't built. With fewer than 5000 people living in the CBD, the galleria wouldn't have been a success. As it is, nearly every major mall in the metro area is having problems.

Pete
08-04-2009, 02:28 PM
In most cities that currently have much downtown retail, it's been there in various forms for a long and continuous time.

In the places where it left (like OKC) it's been very difficult to get it reestablished.

Oil Capital
08-04-2009, 07:37 PM
Remember, the Sheraton Century Center was an enclosed mall when it opened in the 70's... Complete with an FAO Schwartz toy store and a bunch of other retail tenants.

Failed miserably.

Any source or verification for that FAO Schwartz [sic] factoid?

Pete
08-04-2009, 08:04 PM
Here's an ad from November 1979 (with apologies for the previous misspelling):

http://mysite.verizon.net/res17zef/schwarz1.jpg

metro
08-05-2009, 08:24 AM
Large-scale downtown retail has rarely been a success except in highly urbanized cities such as NYC or Chicago. You must have a VERY large population to support it, especially for those not living downtown and faced with the option of driving to a mall to Macy's or going downtown - most would just drive to the mall. I agree that, looking back, we should thank our lucky stars the downtown Galleria wasn't built. With fewer than 5000 people living in the CBD, the galleria wouldn't have been a success. As it is, nearly every major mall in the metro area is having problems.

Not necessarily, Downtown Indy had (may still have) a pretty successful downtown mall. I think it's all in City Demographics as well. You have to think, it'd be the closest real mall to southside, considering Crossroads is no longer a real mall. If the retailer mix was right and promoted good, I still think we could have a successful mall downtown, although the likelihood of someone building one is almost nil.

Steve
08-05-2009, 09:57 AM
xs

mugofbeer
08-05-2009, 11:34 AM
It would have to be a benefactor with virutually bottomless pockets like the Bass Brothers of Ft. Worth to take it on themselves. Even prior to the economic collapse, I doubt anyone could have found lenders willing to take on the risk because - and you are correct - the demographics. I haven't been to Indy in many years, and I am sure there are exceptions. Even in Salt Lake City where they had two nice downtown retail centers, they quickly declined so retail moved to the new Crossroads Plaza which is just outside downtown SLC.

bluedogok
08-05-2009, 11:41 AM
The San Antonio Rivercenter Mall is definitely struggling, and that was a few years ago before the current economic climate. Dillard's closed their store there in August of last year. That location had originally been a Joske's built originally in 1887, so it had been in Downtown San Antonio for over 100 years.

Indy's downtown mall was busy when I was up there but it was the Formula 1 race weekend, it would be interesting to see how busy the mall is on a normal weekend. Downtown retail is a tricky proposition to re-introduce, it has to be something different, more of a "destination" and not just a conventional mall placed downtown.

mugofbeer
08-05-2009, 11:51 AM
San Antonio is killing the Riverwalk by letting it get dominated by the large national chains. When I was there a few years ago, it was nothing but Chili's and Dave & Busters. The mom & pop places that gave it ambiance were closing right and left mainly due to outlandish rents. SA needs to figure out some way to keep the walk affordable for local people to have their businesses there and not make it exclusive to only the national chains we can go to anywhere.

donbroncho
08-05-2009, 01:32 PM
San Antonio is killing the Riverwalk by letting it get dominated by the large national chains. When I was there a few years ago, it was nothing but Chili's and Dave & Busters.

Shoot, if you look enough on this board, you will see a bunch of people who think having a Dave and Busters is one of the greatest thing ever. Thats bad to hear about the SA riverwalk..i went there 10 years ago and it was great...

mugofbeer
08-05-2009, 01:33 PM
When I was there there were maybe 3-4 non-chain places in the area we were which was the main area around the Hyatt

Steve
08-05-2009, 01:39 PM
DonBroncho, that was also a factor in the demise of West End. Ironically, it was a much-heralded theme restaurant (Planet Hollywood), that started the death spiral (which takes us full circle back to the other thread on the Hard Rock Cafe).
Experts repeatedly say successful districts feature and promote locally owned shops, restaurants and entertainment. I'm sorry, but if given a choice between Nonna's, The Mantle, Mickey Mantle Steakhouse versus Ruth's Chris, Morton's and PF Chang's in Bricktown, I'd take the locals. And if given a choice between The Gap and Victoria's Secret vs Oklahoma's Red Dirt Emporium and Put a Cork In It, I'd again take the locals.
BTW: Locally owned shops, restaurants and clubs - the good ones - reinvest back here in Oklahoma City. The chains don't. The CityWalk guys are a perfect example - they reinvested with Michael Murphy's Dueling Pianos.

mugofbeer
08-05-2009, 01:41 PM
Sorry, Steve, don't get it. Explain?

jbrown84
08-07-2009, 08:14 PM
Sorry, Steve, don't get it. Explain?

Seriously?


I've definitely seen the decline of the Rivercenter Mall in San Antonio having been going there over the years. Just in the last 10 years there's been a significant change. Also, I recently visited St. Louis where they have a mall inside their historic Union Station downtown. It is in terrible shape with more vacancy than Crossroads. Also, Tulsa has a dead downtown mall. As someone said, it only works in places like Chicago and NYC.

Urban Enthusiast
08-08-2009, 11:05 AM
Downtown malls are notorious for failing. Indianapolis has a very successful mall, Circle Centre, but before that there was an unsuccessful mall in Union Station. And yes, Tulsa used to have the Forum, which had an ice skating rink. It closed up shop sometime in the early to mid '90s.

Personally, I would like to see more traditional shopping in the downtown area with storefronts on the ground floor. Preferably clustered in a shopping district for better appeal.

mugofbeer
08-09-2009, 10:06 PM
I thought Steve was referring to the West End in Dallas but thats another example of a decline in a downtown entertainment district when the chains are left to take over.

jbrown84
08-12-2009, 07:45 PM
Personally, I would like to see more traditional shopping in the downtown area with storefronts on the ground floor. Preferably clustered in a shopping district for better appeal.

Agreed.

Platemaker
08-13-2009, 03:29 PM
Large-scale downtown retail has rarely been a success except in highly urbanized cities such as NYC or Chicago. You must have a VERY large population to support it


Even in Salt Lake City where they had two nice downtown retail centers, they quickly declined so retail moved to the new Crossroads Plaza which is just outside downtown SLC.

I just spent a week in Salt Lake and their downtown mall didn't seem to have any problems.

rondvu
08-13-2009, 04:32 PM
I agree with Steve. I always try to patronize the local businesses, e.g. Bunny's or Tim's over McDonald's. They have an investment in their business and their livelihood depends on traffic. If the corporate powers is another city decide to bankrupt a business or close the lower preforming stores then you have huge holes in the shops and restaurants. Ask yourself this, Wow so and so closed at it was ALWAYS so busy, wonder why? Chili's, Applebees and Outback all taste the same and truth be know the food come prepackaged from the same kitchen, untouched by human hands. I believe the locals have more staying power.

mugofbeer
08-14-2009, 12:13 PM
I just spent a week in Salt Lake and their downtown mall didn't seem to have any problems.

Its been a couple of years since I was there and it was pretty deserted then because everything had moved to the Crossroads center about a mile away. Maybe its picked up - or are you referring to the Crossroads center that is brand new?

Platemaker
08-14-2009, 01:37 PM
Its been a couple of years since I was there and it was pretty deserted then because everything had moved to the Crossroads center about a mile away. Maybe its picked up - or are you referring to the Crossroads center that is brand new?

I'm talking about the gateway center that TRAX runs to.

mmonroe
08-14-2009, 02:15 PM
Anyone ever notice the different mindset between tulsans and oklahomans? The cities that is. Tulsa is about attractions and okc.. well, we're working on getting our name into the big leagues, but we're not that impressive compared to other cities. I just got back from Panama City Beach, Florida... i drove. I stopped in almost every major city across the SE USA. While driving in between some major cities there is absolutely nothing... But when you do get to those major cities, there are attractions like crazy. Not to mention the beautiful architecture and landscaping. It was depressing leaving Memphis, TN and driving through Arkansas, who's only cool thing to see in my opinion was ANO, their Nuclear Power Plant, and then into oklahoma. Talk about a boring drive. It didn't even get interesting until we hit midwest city.

My question is, Why do we not have something crazy carved into our foot hills like Mt. Rushmore, or Crazy Horse in South Dakota. Where is our archway like st. louis? Why don't we have a space needle or . . . . something. Why do we stop short on where the OKlahoma river ends being a wide body of water. Why is it not wider or longer? What is taking MAPS3 so long?

I'm impatient.

jbrown84
08-14-2009, 03:09 PM
I don't really understand what you are getting at. Every city you went to had an equivalent of the St. Louis Arch or Mt. Rushmore (nowhere near a city)??

MAPS is not about big expensive monuments. It's about quality of life.

Also don't follow what you mean about the different mindsets of OKC and Tulsa.

mmonroe
08-14-2009, 09:34 PM
eh, i was quick to post. What I meant is that tulsans have a might set of attracting people, ie tourist, we as people in okc think about making things better for ourselves. What I was saying as a whole is that we don't really have attractions as of yet. I mean, yes we are building things as we move along, but nothing that defines oklahoma past cowboys and indians. Everywhere I went had something that defined it's city. (Major cities exclusively.)

rondvu
08-15-2009, 06:48 AM
Anyone ever notice the different mindset between tulsans and oklahomans? The cities that is. Tulsa is about attractions and okc.. well, we're working on getting our name into the big leagues, but we're not that impressive compared to other cities. I just got back from Panama City Beach, Florida... i drove. I stopped in almost every major city across the SE USA. While driving in between some major cities there is absolutely nothing... But when you do get to those major cities, there are attractions like crazy. Not to mention the beautiful architecture and landscaping. It was depressing leaving Memphis, TN and driving through Arkansas, who's only cool thing to see in my opinion was ANO, their Nuclear Power Plant, and then into oklahoma. Talk about a boring drive. It didn't even get interesting until we hit midwest city.

My question is, Why do we not have something crazy carved into our foot hills like Mt. Rushmore, or Crazy Horse in South Dakota. Where is our archway like st. louis? Why don't we have a space needle or . . . . something. Why do we stop short on where the OKlahoma river ends being a wide body of water. Why is it not wider or longer? What is taking MAPS3 so long?

I'm impatient.

Did you say MIDWEST CITY?

jbrown84
08-15-2009, 02:56 PM
eh, i was quick to post. What I meant is that tulsans have a might set of attracting people, ie tourist, we as people in okc think about making things better for ourselves. What I was saying as a whole is that we don't really have attractions as of yet. I mean, yes we are building things as we move along, but nothing that defines oklahoma past cowboys and indians. Everywhere I went had something that defined it's city. (Major cities exclusively.)

Still not sure what major attractions other cities have that we don't, other than the specific ones you mentioned. You also said in the same post that there was nothing to see in all of Arkansas, including Little Rock. What is it you think we are missing, exactly?

megax11
08-17-2009, 10:52 AM
I am a huge fan of Crossroads mall, but even I would like to see this happen -

Build a huge mall somewhere downtown, like Dallas has with their Galleria. It could have all of the big stores, namely the ones I shop at (Hollister, Buckle, A&F, AE,) even an arcade like Quail still has. Lego could open a store there. Since this would be more centralized, Simon could pack up Penn Square, and get the hell out of dodge, and Crossroads can be demolished, since it would certainly go to waste making it a business mall, or a mall full of government offices (boring.)

This way we'd have malls in a more balanced fashion. Quail up north, Sooner down south, and this huge mall, downtown, for the north and southsiders.

In my opinion, this would bring more business downtown, and maybe some more Bricktown projects could get done.

I'll say this, and I know it isn't much. If Crossroads fails, I refuse to shop at any other malls, for the sole fact that gives money to that sector, and they flourish while my sector falls down the hole. Southside deserves some love, but is getting none. I know I am one person, but other's may catch on someday, to the fact that when they spend money in other parts of the city, it goes toward that area, and helps them grow and grow, while they give little thought to the people who came that far to spend money (convienance.)

jbrown84
08-17-2009, 02:30 PM
"Pack up" Penn Square??? Are you serious?

decepticobra
08-17-2009, 02:39 PM
Chili's, Applebees and Outback all taste the same and truth be know the food come prepackaged from the same kitchen, untouched by human hands..

Sounds like youre referring to Landrys. They own many restaurants (I forget which exact ones they own)

Yum! owns Taco Bell, KFC, and Pizza Hut so all 3 of them use the exact same shredded cheese trucked in from the same distribution company whether it be for tacos, pizza, or chicken bowls.

Drake
08-17-2009, 07:00 PM
"Build a huge mall somewhere downtown, like Dallas has with their Galleria."

???

The Galleria in Dallas is in north Dallas, not near the downtown area.

mugofbeer
08-17-2009, 10:43 PM
The day of the huge indoor mall is passing us by. When there are so many big box strip centers, most malls are having trouble. In cities where zoning laws are more strict than OKC and the surrounding area and the malls don't have competition on every single flipping streetcorner, the malls are making it - otherwise, only the ones in established, high income areas are surviving. The more marginal malls are dying a slow death.

Patrick
08-18-2009, 08:15 AM
eh, i was quick to post. What I meant is that tulsans have a might set of attracting people, ie tourist, we as people in okc think about making things better for ourselves. What I was saying as a whole is that we don't really have attractions as of yet. I mean, yes we are building things as we move along, but nothing that defines oklahoma past cowboys and indians. Everywhere I went had something that defined it's city. (Major cities exclusively.)


I'm confused. What attractions does Tulsa have that we don't have? The only real tourist attractions in Tulsa I can think of are Philbrook and Gilcrease. So, we have the OKC Museum of Art and National Cowboy and Western Heritage Museum. Plus we have Science Museum Oklahoma, the Bricktown area and Bricktown canal, all of the attractions in the "Adventure District", etc. etc.

Patrick
08-18-2009, 08:18 AM
Build a huge mall somewhere downtown, like Dallas has with their Galleria. It could have all of the big stores, namely the ones I shop at (Hollister, Buckle, A&F, AE,) even an arcade like Quail still has. Lego could open a store there.

Galleria isn't any closer to downtown Dallas than Penn Square is to downtown OKC.


Since this would be more centralized, Simon could pack up Penn Square, and get the hell out of dodge

That wouldn't be a very smart business decision. Penn Square is pretty successful and Simon has too much at stake there. I mean, it's the most successful shopping area in the city.



In my opinion, this would bring more business downtown, and maybe some more Bricktown projects could get done.

I don't think we want a suburban mall downtown. I'd prefer more storefronts like in most downtown areas.


I'll say this, and I know it isn't much. If Crossroads fails, I refuse to shop at any other malls, for the sole fact that gives money to that sector, and they flourish while my sector falls down the hole. Southside deserves some love, but is getting none. I know I am one person, but other's may catch on someday, to the fact that when they spend money in other parts of the city, it goes toward that area, and helps them grow and grow, while they give little thought to the people who came that far to spend money (convienance.)

Crossroads has already failed. The place is dead.

megax11
08-18-2009, 08:51 AM
Penn Square is probably so well off because us southsiders have to rely on that mall, since ours is on its deathbed. See the trend? We drive 10-15 minutes, just to help that side of town prosper, while even our strip malls are thin of new businesses, let alone our mall.

Penn Square is off to a good start due to the people over there, plus a mixture of those of us on southside who want a good shopping experience, but is close, yet so far away.

How can southside flourish like other areas, building a good amount of plazas and filling them with new businesses and doing something with all the abandoned areas we have, if we are giving our money to certain sectors of the city?

A senior manager friend of mine from Toys R Us, told me that Southside TRU may close down, due to the impending Moore location. If they think I am going to shop there, because they can't just give Moore a convienant location, while keeping their other locations, then they are dead wrong. It is all about convienance, and us southsiders are getting **** on, because we are spending our money in the wrong places. I even heard they may close their Norman location, which isn't fair to Norman people who have supported them for years upon years, just for them to bail to greater pastures, making it more convienant for them, not the customer.

If it were up to me, I would have all these plazas filled in southside. Tell these lasy capitalist pigs who think to only put a bingo hall in a plaza and reap the rewards, to cut it out, of get the **** out. They're wasting the potential southside has to grow, because they want to be lazy and sit on all the cash coming in. I would have Crossroads fixed up, city bought, and fixed up into retail, or I'd bulldoze the POS, and make way for a nice outdoor shopping district.

I believe in equality. Moore, northside, Quail, Edmond, Norman and southside, all deserve some lovin in the retail sector. Sadly though, retail is bailing on those they relied on for so many years, and going to better pastures, while expecting those they relied on to drive further when gas is rising yet again.

I never support anything that uses my money just to bail, and make things more inconvienant for me. Other's will in time, get smart to the fact as well.

In before they cant do this during this bad economy.

metro
08-18-2009, 09:17 AM
The City shouldn't be getting into the retail business in the first place. Let the private sector locate businesses where it wishes (within legal zoning requirements). Besides, didn't you "dream" Crossroads is making a comeback and your dreams come true? So then what's all this negative rhetoric.

mugofbeer
08-18-2009, 09:54 AM
Penn Square is probably so well off because us southsiders have to rely on that mall, since ours is on its deathbed. See the trend? We drive 10-15 minutes, just to help that side of town prosper, while even our strip malls are thin of new businesses, let alone our mall.

Penn Square is off to a good start due to the people over there, plus a mixture of those of us on southside who want a good shopping experience, but is close, yet so far away.

How can southside flourish like other areas, building a good amount of plazas and filling them with new businesses and doing something with all the abandoned areas we have, if we are giving our money to certain sectors of the city?

A senior manager friend of mine from Toys R Us, told me that Southside TRU may close down, due to the impending Moore location. If they think I am going to shop there, because they can't just give Moore a convienant location, while keeping their other locations, then they are dead wrong. It is all about convienance, and us southsiders are getting **** on, because we are spending our money in the wrong places. I even heard they may close their Norman location, which isn't fair to Norman people who have supported them for years upon years, just for them to bail to greater pastures, making it more convienant for them, not the customer.

If it were up to me, I would have all these plazas filled in southside. Tell these lasy capitalist pigs who think to only put a bingo hall in a plaza and reap the rewards, to cut it out, of get the **** out. They're wasting the potential southside has to grow, because they want to be lazy and sit on all the cash coming in. I would have Crossroads fixed up, city bought, and fixed up into retail, or I'd bulldoze the POS, and make way for a nice outdoor shopping district.

I believe in equality. Moore, northside, Quail, Edmond, Norman and southside, all deserve some lovin in the retail sector. Sadly though, retail is bailing on those they relied on for so many years, and going to better pastures, while expecting those they relied on to drive further when gas is rising yet again.

I never support anything that uses my money just to bail, and make things more inconvienant for me. Other's will in time, get smart to the fact as well.

In before they cant do this during this bad economy.

I do find it unfortunate that Crossroads is in the condition it is in but keep in mind, that whether you spend your tax dollars on the south side or on the north side, as long as you spend in OKC, the tax dollars will go to the same place. Unfortunately, it appears the south side just doesn't spend its money in mall type settings, but rather spends at Wal Mart or other strip center stores. Plus, Crossroads has competition you may not think of in Heritage Park mall (also on the ropes) and Sooner Fashion Mall in Norman (unknown health but with the new development next to Westheimer airport in Norman, look for Sooner Fashion to have some real problems soon). In its rush to get new tax revenue from the huge project, I hope Norman didn't kill off another shopping area.

ElmoFromOK
08-18-2009, 11:25 AM
Whoa! I had no idea we had an FAO Schwarz here. I was just about to bring up the Sheraton Century Center shopping area as well. I was a kid in the 70's and somehow never knew about this awesome toy store being there.

My parents got some splainin' to do!!

ElmoFromOK
08-18-2009, 11:33 AM
I believe in equality. Moore, northside, Quail, Edmond, Norman and southside, all deserve some lovin in the retail sector. Sadly though, retail is bailing on those they relied on for so many years, and going to better pastures, while expecting those they relied on to drive further when gas is rising yet again.

Retail follows the money. There is more money (and higher incomes) in the Penn Sq area than there is in the Crossroads area.

ElmoFromOK
08-18-2009, 11:38 AM
Seems like a large indoor mall is a doomed idea these days. Less and less people are willing to go out of their way to shop in a mall when they can instead shop online from work or home and have it all brought to them.

The only time I can see shopping making a comeback in downtown is if quality stores with high curb appeal can open in areas where people are going to be anyway. They might have some success capturing some business that way. Sadly, I do not find it likely that this will happen.

That being said, I really wish we would create some quality shopping experiences downtown. Seems like this is one of the puzzle pieces we still have to solve in our long road towards building a amazing downtown OKC .

Patrick
08-18-2009, 12:07 PM
Penn Square is probably so well off because us southsiders have to rely on that mall, since ours is on its deathbed. See the trend? We drive 10-15 minutes, just to help that side of town prosper, while even our strip malls are thin of new businesses, let alone our mall.

Actually looking at demographics on Penn Square, it's mostly supported by the area around it, mostly Nichols Hills. But, it draws from all over the city, including Edmond. Demographics show it's actually supported by Yukon and Mustang more than any other area outside the region surrounding the mall. Looking at Simon's demographics, only about 5% of shoppers come from the south side.


Penn Square is off to a good start due to the people over there, plus a mixture of those of us on southside who want a good shopping experience, but is close, yet so far away.

Off to a good start? The mall is the oldest "retail" mall in the city, so there's a long history there, both good and bad. Shepherd is older, but it's no longer retail.


How can southside flourish like other areas, building a good amount of plazas and filling them with new businesses and doing something with all the abandoned areas we have, if we are giving our money to certain sectors of the city?

Most of your retail is now concentrated in Moore and Norman, both booming suburbs on the south side.


A senior manager friend of mine from Toys R Us, told me that Southside TRU may close down, due to the impending Moore location. If they think I am going to shop there, because they can't just give Moore a convienant location, while keeping their other locations, then they are dead wrong. It is all about convienance, and us southsiders are getting **** on, because we are spending our money in the wrong places. I even heard they may close their Norman location, which isn't fair to Norman people who have supported them for years upon years, just for them to bail to greater pastures, making it more convienant for them, not the customer.

It's all about demographics and location. Toys R Us is struggling, and they're probably just wanting to consolidate their 2 south side stores into one......right in the middle of the 2 in Moore.


If it were up to me, I would have all these plazas filled in southside. Tell these lasy capitalist pigs who think to only put a bingo hall in a plaza and reap the rewards, to cut it out, of get the **** out. They're wasting the potential southside has to grow, because they want to be lazy and sit on all the cash coming in. I would have Crossroads fixed up, city bought, and fixed up into retail, or I'd bulldoze the POS, and make way for a nice outdoor shopping district.

Crossroads will never be a successful retail center again. The demographics just aren't there. It's similar to what happened to Shepherd Mall. The demographics around Shepherd Mall changed, just as the demographics around Crossroads Mall have changed. If you want a retail center on the south side, you'll have more luck going for the SW 104th and Penn area.


I believe in equality. Moore, northside, Quail, Edmond, Norman and southside, all deserve some lovin in the retail sector. Sadly though, retail is bailing on those they relied on for so many years, and going to better pastures, while expecting those they relied on to drive further when gas is rising yet again.

Actually it's the southsiders that have bailed for greener pastures in Moore and Norman. Retail just follows demographics. The money unfortunately, has moved south.


I never support anything that uses my money just to bail, and make things more inconvienant for me. Other's will in time, get smart to the fact as well.

It all comes down to business. Retailers are in the business to make money. They're going to locate in areas that are most likely best for their business. When retailers make decisions about locations, it all comes down to the bottom line. And who can blame them, especially in this tough economy. To stay out of bankruptcy, they have to make smart business decisions.

Patrick
08-18-2009, 12:20 PM
Seems like a large indoor mall is a doomed idea these days. Less and less people are willing to go out of their way to shop in a mall when they can instead shop online from work or home and have it all brought to them.

Yes and no. Obviously, the trend now is to build outdoor lifestyle centers. But really, these aren't much different than malls. They're just outdoor malls. Had the trend not changed, you'd see indoor malls still being built. Retail would still get built regardless.

Indoor malls in areas with good demographics and backed by solid management companies are still doing well, and will continue to do so. Poorly managed indoor malls in declining areas will fail, just as any retail center would. So, I don't think you can completely place the blame in the "indoor mall" as much as changing demographics and changing trends for new retail concepts.


The only time I can see shopping making a comeback in downtown is if quality stores with high curb appeal can open in areas where people are going to be anyway. They might have some success capturing some business that way. Sadly, I do not find it likely that this will happen.

Retail follows rooftops. We need to get more people living downtown, and then maybe we'll see more downtown retail.


That being said, I really wish we would create some quality shopping experiences downtown. Seems like this is one of the puzzle pieces we still have to solve in our long road towards building a amazing downtown OKC .

Again, the key rests with creating more downtown residents. Also, we'll have to come up with a proposed planned retail development. Depending on retail to develop on its own typically doesn't happen. Retail stores typically clump in well planned and developed retail centers. This doesn't have to be a lifestyle center. It can be a well planned urban development. Having a common owner of all of the warehouses on the north canal in Bricktown with a clear focus of creating a retail center would be a plus. Or the same could be done in Automobile Alley, Midtown, or wherever you want to locate it.

jbrown84
08-18-2009, 03:51 PM
How can southside flourish like other areas, building a good amount of plazas and filling them with new businesses and doing something with all the abandoned areas we have, if we are giving our money to certain sectors of the city?

That's not the fault of anyone but "southsiders" who don't shop in their own retail developments. You are the ones that stopped shopping at Crossroads.



I believe in equality. Moore, northside, Quail, Edmond, Norman and southside, all deserve some lovin in the retail sector.

There is no equality in business. That's just the way it is. Sorry.

mmonroe
08-18-2009, 05:02 PM
Ok, let my better try to explain myself I guess. And mind you, it is an opinion.

We don't have a defining attraction that when you're here you say, "I'm in Oklahoma City." I was purely using the arch, crazy horse, rushmore etc. as examples. I don't believe I ever stated that every city I visited had each and every single one of those examples but a few did have defining attractions that let you know where you were at.

What happened to the observation tower that was going to be built near the river?

bluedogok
08-18-2009, 09:34 PM
To most national retailers, Moore is "Southside OKC", it's south of downtown and there is still a large population south of it. Most don't distinguish parts of town by whatever city it's in until it's time to try and get incentives, then they will definitely play an OKC vs. Moore vs. Norman. The area around Crossroads has always been more industrial, not that many residential rooftops and not the ones with large amounts of disposable income that retailers covet.