Once upon a time there was a thread started on Union Station by Doug and Pete that showed off the station's architecture and people were talking about the station's history and its potential future. But then the thread, rightly or wrongly, got taken over by Tom Elmore.
This thread asks the following question:
How can this station be put to a greater and better use than it is now? COTPA has minimized its operations in the station and will pretty much be leaving open the main station area if I understand correctly.
The station is owned by the city. Could the location lend itself to someday in the future being a city museum? Could it become retail? Are there restrictions on how it can be used?
Moderators, can we please leave the discussion of the railyard out of this thread? Thanks. And Doug, can you repost your photos in this thread?

Elmore will just screw up this thread, too, Steve. Anyone that wants to see them can go to this photobucket link: unionstation pictures by DougLoudenback - Photobucket (http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/trains/unionstation/) ... or read about it in my blog article, http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2009/06/union-station-circa-2009.html.
He sort of chills my interest in posting on the topic. Bad karma.

OK, here are the photos from Doug and Pete that got the previous thread started:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/trains/trains_vrp_insideunion1s.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/trains/trains_vrp_insideunion2s.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/trains/trains_vrp_insideunion3s.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/trains/trains_vrp_insideunion4s.jpg

http://images35.fotki.com/v1127/photos/1/1131078/5988524/IMG_0049-vi.jpg

http://images36.fotki.com/v1158/photos/1/1131078/5988524/IMG_0036-vi.jpg

http://images35.fotki.com/v1127/photos/1/1131078/5988524/IMG_0039-vi.jpg

http://images30.fotki.com/v480/photos/1/1131078/5988524/IMG_0043-vi.jpg

http://images30.fotki.com/v472/photos/1/1131078/5988524/IMG_0046-vi.jpg

Perhaps the city could lease the space and part of it could be turned into a Tavern on the Green style restaurant? I've driven by Union Station, and the building itself is gorgeous. It practically begs for some sort of use that will draw people in large numbers.

Does anyone know whether how the highway will relate to the station in terms of location, grade level, exits and entrances around the station. (Tom, I politely ask you not to use this question as a way to introduce the railyard argument into this thread).

Here was my proposal from a previous thread:

http://mysite.verizon.net/res17zef/floorplan3.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-area-talk/18297-what-new-uses-union-station-building-part-our-new-central-park.html

That railroad museum would overlook the remaining tracks, right? Are presuming the lobby would stay in case rail traffic returned?

I actually would like to see the old lunch room and lobby combined into museum space; even the ramp leading down to the tunnel. It's all beautiful space.

Also, the museum could be broader, like for general OKC history rather than just rail.

But no, it would not overlook the old tracks, as not shown on that diagram is the huge cargo/mail docks located just to the south. Not sure what could be done with that -- maybe even more museum space in which case it would overlook the old rail yard (even though there is nothing much left).


The most important thing to me is that the General Waiting Room be preserved for the most public of uses, so people could freely see it and use it for events. It's right up there with the Great Banking Hall IMHO.

The two side courtyards are very nice as well and could be used as picnic areas or made available as part of the event space.

No offense. But I started a thread on this already. The two should be merged.

http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-area-talk/18297-what-new-uses-union-station-building-part-our-new-central-park.html

Here's the full floorplan showing the docks:

http://mysite.verizon.net/res17zef/floorplan.jpg

Does anyone know whether how the highway will relate to the station in terms of location, grade level, exits and entrances around the station. (Tom, I politely ask you not to use this question as a way to introduce the railyard argument into this thread).

As it stands now, the highway will be depressed, just a few yards behind Union Station. Now the highway guard walls may go 8-10 ft above ground behind the Union Station, but the "Central Park" pretty much ends at the highway, just yards south of the Union Station. Now how many yards I don't know due to the size of the models/renderings. Also, ODOT still has on the drawing boards an exit ramp on Robinson coming off at about what I believe they said was SW 7th and have it dead ending to the park, that is unless they take it off the drawing boards, but currently they still have the ramp in the plans, which makes no sense as it serves no purpose. Believe me, ODOT won on this one.

The station itself is "suggested" to be marketed as multi-use to anchor the far SW corner of the park. It will have bigger rentals such as bikes, sports equipment, etc. as well as possibily have a museum, restaurant, event space, 2nd floor offices for ODOT, and other amenities. There are currently no plans for paddleboats or anything in the lakes at the park. They are suggesting all water activities (boats, etc.) be done at the Oklahoma River. The "signature" for Central Park is going to be the large interactive water feature (with programmable fountains, etc.).

No offense. But I started a thread on this already. The two should be merged.

http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-area-talk/18297-what-new-uses-union-station-building-part-our-new-central-park.html

Can we just keep this thread about the station and that's it and not central park? Central Park may or may not happen depending on the fate of MAPS 3. Why can't people just let this topic live on its own?

The "signature" for Central Park is going to be the large interactive water feature (with programmable fountains, etc.).


Hopefully it will be as cool as it sounds, unlike the Centennial Fountain in LB.

I don't know Steve. I get aggravated by duplicate threads about similar things. I guess my take on it is that if the park or other major development does not occur around Union Station the discussion of it's possible uses is irrelevant. If the area is not approved the building continues to sit in a slum hidden by the old post office.

Also, COTPA does not have the funds to bring it up to ADA standards which is the major reason that public events have not been encouraged there. In speaking with administrators, it is the park that is causing impetus for possible alternate uses of the building. COTPA is only offering the available parts of the building for storage and not public use.

So no, I think the two topics are mutually reliant at this time. If you know something other than park developers encouraging the re-adaptive use of the grand building, then I think it does deserve it's own speculative thread.

I get aggravated by people who hijack threads ... but whatever.

Hopefully it will be as cool as it sounds, unlike the Centennial Fountain in LB.

Thanks alot! lol Centennial is scaled for the space and the budget. It is a great centerpiece. We need major space for the kind of fountain I think you wish it was such as a Bellagio or Jacarta. The park will provide space for a decent fountain.

I get aggravated by people who hijack threads ... but whatever.

I catch your drift Steve.

Not meaning to target you Jeff, and I just realized that's how that sounded.

No. It is a beautiful grand building that is a beacon surrounded by slum. It deserves to be discussed. I think the same thing about the possibilities that Sante Fe offers. They are both totally underutilized and were practically given away. They should be in civic hands.

Now, on the other hand, I think we provided some great entertainment Jeff when everyone thought we were at war. Maybe we could stage something for them....

The battle of Sanka Crystals in front of Coffee Slingers? We could duel it out with plastic cups on sticks. lol. No seriously, you are right about stirring something up about this building.

What's amazing about it, and looking at Pete's ideas, you realize that this building can easily have five different major entrances and themes. It's almost like a mall....

Ok, I'll play.

When considering space, don't forget that the 2nd floor has usable space and that offices are present on the first floor and the tunnel space appears usable. Plus, at least some outside space exists on the south side. I may have taken a pic or two a few years back ... I'll have a look.

I have no idea what the total square footage of usable space is, but it would seem to have enough to be something of a tourist destination, were the space put to use for the usual suspects which were mentioned before:


Museum collection ... trains particularly and Oklahoma City and County, generally (since we don't have one);
Hands-on areas for kids and miniature train enthusiasts;
Exhibit and event space like Pete showed;
Food vendors/restaurants;
Gift shops;

I'd suppose the above are givens. But, that still leaves a heck of a lot of space, I'd suppose, for something more creative. That part is harder for me since I'm not that good at being creative. It would be good to have some thoughts "outside the box" to come up with something really nifty.

A miniature train ride? See ... I'm not very creative.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/trains/unionstation/unionstation_6_26_2009_23s.jpg (http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/trains/unionstation/unionstation_6_26_2009_23.jpg)

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/trains/unionstation/unionstation_6_26_2009_18s.jpg (http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/trains/unionstation/unionstation_6_26_2009_18.jpg)

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/trains/unionstation/unionstation_6_26_2009_19s.jpg (http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/trains/unionstation/unionstation_6_26_2009_19.jpg)

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/trains/unionstation/unionstation_6_26_2009_16s.jpg (http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/trains/unionstation/unionstation_6_26_2009_16.jpg)

Doug, should the interior addition from the early 1980s be kept or scrapped?

The question is premature, in my estimation. First, a grand concept/plan would be established and then decisions like that would be made. Are you talking about the area in the southeast corner, below?

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/trains/unionstation/unionstation_6_26_2009_04s.jpg (http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/trains/unionstation/unionstation_6_26_2009_04.jpg)

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/trains/unionstation/unionstation_6_26_2009_04crops.jpg (http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/trains/unionstation/unionstation_6_26_2009_04crop.jpg)

I've looked at the pics that I took from the south side of the tracks a couple of years ago and they don't show enough to be useful in this discussion. But some MS Maps aerials do ... I don't know a thing about the structures on the south side ... condition or use. In this, you can see the pair of courtyard areas that Pete mentioned which could be put to use.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/trains/unionstation/unionstationaerial1.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/trains/unionstation/unionstationaerial2.jpg

From this photo that Steve posted above (one of Pete's, I think), it looks like the south portion was finished out pretty nicely, too. Cargo/storage I suppose, but it does have the same rock exterior finish.

http://images30.fotki.com/v480/photos/1/1131078/5988524/IMG_0043-vi.jpg

Thanks alot! lol Centennial is scaled for the space and the budget. It is a great centerpiece. We need major space for the kind of fountain I think you wish it was such as a Bellagio or Jacarta. The park will provide space for a decent fountain.

I said that because Hogan and others talked real big about that fountain, comparing it to the Bellagio specifically. It's a great fountain, but it was oversold.

A lot of things are oversold in this city, it just isn't Hogan. Anyone remember the large pillar of light that stands east of I-235...? I think we were told it would be an attraction similar in nature to the Seattle Space needle or the St. Louis arch. Barely anyone knows it's even over there.

Yes, I almost used the Beacon of Hope as another example.

It's so forgettable I had forgotten the actual name of it! :)

BTW, how many times have we been promised grand plans for First National Center? How many failed promises did we have with the Skirvin before the city finally jumped in? What about the Steel Yard? The Factory? All of the hotels and mixed use developments planned for the empty lot across from the ballpark?

It's so forgettable I had forgotten the actual name of it! :)

BTW, how many times have we been promised grand plans for First National Center? How many failed promises did we have with the Skirvin before the city finally jumped in? What about the Steel Yard? The Factory? All of the hotels and mixed use developments planned for the empty lot across from the ballpark?
Patrick et al., Steve started this thread in the hopes that it had the possibility of staying on topic and not get diverted. I came close to not participating because I figured that chances were not good in that regard. This thread has nothing to do with likes/dislikes of whatever other projects may be seen as good, bad, or indifferent. It has to do with possible future uses of Union Station, nothing more, nothing less. I hope that everyone, not just Tom Elmore, will cooperate and stay on topic. Please?

Thanks Doug! Patrick, I'd suggest you ask the moderator to take your comment and make it the start of a new thread about "failed promises."
Now, back to Union Station. As I look at the freight dock areas, it is stunning how a top finish was used for every bit of the exterior of the station. Would the dock areas be the best place to build out small retail shops if a multi-purpose mall approach were taken (as suggested by Pete's plans)?

Here are a couple more of the docks which face south (towards the old rail lines).

Not sure what could be done with this area... Perhaps gallery space for local artists?

That part of the building will be very close to the new expressway.

http://mysite.verizon.net/res17zef/docks1.jpg


http://mysite.verizon.net/res17zef/docks2.jpg

Sorry, all the talk about the Centennial and LB got us off topic.

Back on topic...what would you guys think about the restaurant being Oklahoma Station BBQ???....seems to fit the concept, and the owners of Oklahoma Station are very rail friendly. This great local restaurant could be the tenant for the restaurant space you guys are proposing.

The interior shots are beautiful, it's an incredible building, but the aerial shots caught my attention as far as potential. You really get a feel of the size of Union Station with the aerial view and it's such a great building. Count me as one who hasn't come up with anything even worth mentioning for such an incredible space as Union Station.

As I mentioned in another thread, I spent a few days in Kansas City and was very impressed with what they've done with their restored Union Station (http://www.unionstation.org/visitorinfo.html). It now houses several museums including a science museum, planetarium, (basically like ours out on Lincoln), a railroad museum, and a couple of nice restaurants. It also is now the working Amtrak station the past six years. Their Union Station is bigger than ours, but it's hard for me to compare sizes. But just 15 years ago that building in KC was very close to demolition after failed negotiations for redevelopment!

Sorry, all the talk about the Centennial and LB got us off topic.

Back on topic...what would you guys think about the restaurant being Oklahoma Station BBQ???....seems to fit the concept, and the owners of Oklahoma Station are very rail friendly. This great local restaurant could be the tenant for the restaurant space you guys are proposing.

Seriously? Oklahoma Station isn't quite "Tavern on the Green." This is a PRIME location for a signature restaurant. We have plenty of Oklahoma Stations and other similar restaurants in OKC, we don't need to water down the park with Oklahoma Station. We need something of Red Prime or higher quality for this location. This WILL BE OKC's SIGNATURE RESTAURANT.

http://www.tavernonthegreen.com/



Sidenote: As "Central Park" is currently proposed, there will be a smaller building built at the front of the park that will have small rentals (frisbees, soccerballs, kites, etc.) as well as have a small cafe and bathrooms/changing rooms. I think a burger joint or sandwich shop would be a good fit.

http://www.thecentralparkboathouse.com/

The one in KC is awesome but it's also 850,000 square feet -- that's almost as big as Penn Square.

Ours is 55,000 square feet and I think that includes the docks.


But one thing they've done in KC is keep their Great Hall (similar to our General Waiting Room) open and available for large events, like weddings. This is something we must do as well.

I'd be curious what Tuck thinks about the chances of a nice restaurant making it at Union Station. Can it work if the property is redeveloped independent of anything changing in the immediate area? Would it work if the postal facility is razed but no central park is built? Or would the mayor's park have to become a reality for the station to be a feasible site for commercial development?

Not Tuck, but I don't think any venture would be successful in that building until that area is substantially cleaned up.

Just driving down there is quite shocking, especially given the proximity to the CBD.


The good news is the building has been nicely preserved and can wait for the area to develop.

Personally, I'd like to see the 80's decor go and have the old style revived. Toss all the green carpet and such....wood/tile floor it. Return it back to it's historical look. It looks more dated with the 80's look than Santa Fe did with the dust bunnies.

bomber, from all indications (and what I observed when I toured) all the "improvements" would be easy to remove.

The original floors, ceilings, walls, light fixtures, woodwork, etc. seem to be preserved.

Personally, I'd like to see the 80's decor go and have the old style revived. Toss all the green carpet and such....wood/tile floor it. Return it back to it's historical look. It looks more dated with the 80's look than Santa Fe did with the dust bunnies.

Not to mention I SERIOUSLY doubt they'd keep it if it is restored to it's grandeur and used for OKC's premier event space in the heart of our new "Central Park."

Since it is registered as historical, all the "improvements" were designed to be later removed. So, "restoration" could be done with a sledge hammer. The property can't be sold easily as COTPA acquired partlly with Federal Funds.

I wonder then if museum and community space might be a better use....

I wonder then if museum and community space might be a better use....

With a mini set of rails and a caboose turned into a taco truck right outside

TOOT TOOT

(I love my new meds!)

I think in the short term the museum / community space could be implemented but I'd love to see a nice restaurant incorporating the front loggia when the time is right (i.e. the park gets built and/or the area is vastly improved).

You know, it's not really THAT far from Boathouse Row either. Too bad it's not on the other side of Shields, but it's not too far a stretch to imaging the place being a eating/something destination for the boaters out there as well.

Add a couple restaurants and maybe some souvenier option....it's got plenty space on the dock side for that type of alteration. And I don't believe the docks are "historical" since they were added later. THey have plenty room for some design changes to make them work.

Too far a stretch?

Where's the money for a history museum though? The old State Capitol museum in Guthrie just closed and pretty much everything else is consolidating to the Oklahoma Historical Society's new digs.

Just let COTPA keep it as office space until there's a good sized park there. Then? Let someone pay a lot of money to rent the place and try to build a successful business in that location. Deciding what 'should' be the use for that building probably at least 10 years before anything viable could be there is a futile exercise, IMHO.

Well that's very true, but it's still fun to play at it. Isn't that why we are here? There's a whole crapload of work that needs to be done in the area before anyone would even WANT to be there....but that's not the point.

nah, there's lots of people down that way every day even now, nights and weekends too. Of course, in today's economy, yesterday;'s as well, they don't spend a lot on fine dining.