First off, this is not meant to be an inflammatory post, these are simply thoughts that I've had, and I feel more comfortable speaking anonymously than I would face to face with anyone.

How does a person come to have faith in their heart? I'm not talking about just 'going through the motions', but really, honestly believing in their heart that there is a higher power who created everything that we experience with our five senses.

Do the majority of people of 'faith' really believe in their heart of hearts or are they choosing to believe simply on the chance that there is a higher power and that by believing they will ascend to heaven once their shell has expired? Is faith simply learned from our environmental and social circumstances? Is there any choice in faith, or like other conditions do some people simply have it and some don't based on their genetic makeup?

I ask these things because I have never had faith, I consider myself to be a non-believer, however I can imagine eventually coming to a point in my life where I might yearn for spiritual enlightenment of sorts. To believe in something that one can thank for every good thing that happens in life and to potentially blame for all of the bad, to believe that every occurrence in life is part of some grand design... to have hope... for humanity, for the world and for myself. I simply cannot understand the ability of people to 'let go' of logic and reason in order to have faith, and so I cannot foresee doing so myself.

I wish that more science and proof were available so that I could embrace these things that many people hold sacred, however I understand that that goes against the very definition of faith. I also understand that I am condemning myself to an eternity of suffering in the pits of Hell if I am wrong, yet I resign myself to my faults if they are faults and am content to be true to myself.

I am confused.

I think that the short and sweet answer is that one cannot DECIDE to believe something, especially regarding matters metaphysical.

Personally, I think man is hard wired to believe in a higher power under the right circumstances. Some people see it in nature, some feel as though they have a calling from the time they are young. Others "get religion" when their world goes belly up on them and they don't know where to turn. Some inch towards a spiritual belief as they age and begin to get a different perspective on life. Some begin to see patterns in the world and it starts to make sense to them that perhaps there is something...there. Some have an event that causes them to see the world through different eyes.

I will say this - someone with a religious faith sees the world quite differently than those who don't. There is a richness to every moment as they ponder whether an event is a manifestation of god or mere happenstance. Things take on meaning beyond the mundane. That doesn't mean they are frothing at the mouth fundamentalist zealots (although certainly it can be carried that far). But many perfectly reasonable, successful people have this sort of mind set and you'd never really know it.

Look for the ones with a serenity and peace about them who soldier on no matter what. Chances are, they are doing the mental analysis that comes with having a religious faith that allows them to think things through instead of simply reacting. They look for patterns and question their own contribution to a situation - and wonder what lessons they should learn from it. That may be what faith it - it is not a doctrine or a theology. It is more a notion that things happen for a reason and if we just can't figure out what the reason is - after doing a careful analysis of whether it is a man-made problem - there is an idea that there is a time for every season and a purpose for the things that happen. As you get older, you start to see how things turned out, how lives changed and how good can come from what seemed like terrible circumstances. And you learn to accept what you can't change - the loss of a beloved child or the death of a spouse, perhaps disease or estrangement from a loved one that you can't fix. Faith, many times, is a belief that god knows all about it and has a plan. It may well be that you are already on that path. You certainly are asking the right questions. I wouldn't worry about it too much and I sure wouldn't worry too much about the hell part.

How does a person come to have faith in their heart? I'm not talking about just 'going through the motions', but really, honestly believing in their heart that there is a higher power who created everything that we experience with our five senses.

I can't speak for anyone but myself when it comes to those who have faith, especially since so many carrying my banner (Christian) march to such a different beat than I do. As for myself, there are several reasons why I have faith. A couple of the biggies for me are: conscience and creation.

In his book, Mere Christianity, CS Lewis does a great job of building a case from atheism (which he once was) to theism and then further to Christian theism. The first argument he gives is something he calls the Law of Human Nature. Basically, it's our conscience.

The basic idea is that we, as humans across civilizations and across time, have a general idea of what we "ought" to do and it's been the same throughout time. It's a universal "oughtness". And when we don't do what we "ought", we know it. That, to me, is suspicious at the very least. Much more could be said, but I recommend at least reading the first 20 or 30 pages of Mere Christianity where he talks about this idea. (link to online text below)

The second thing for me is creation. I'm sitting in my cubicle at work and am surrounded by things that are man made. A computer, a TV, a phone, speakers, cubicle walls, lights, on and on and on... Forget my cubicle, how about the simple ceramic mug sitting on my desk. Not terribly intricate, not terribly fancy, but if I told you that nobody made it and that it was formed out of the earth that way, you would say I'm crazy. What about a candy wrapper. If you're stuck in the middle of nowhere looking for signs of life, a candy wrapper can be a wonderful sight. Why? Because, as simple as it is, candy wrappers don't just happen. They're put there by someone.

With that in mind, how am I to believe that something infinitely more complex than a candy wrapper, like our universe, or even an ant or maybe just one living cell, just happened. Anybody that spots a wrapper in a forest KNOWS it was put there. But the trees and grass and dirt surrounding the wrapper? "That all just happened." I just can't buy that logic.

I could go on... but those are a couple of the biggies for me.


Do the majority of people of 'faith' really believe in their heart of hearts or are they choosing to believe simply on the chance that there is a higher power and that by believing they will ascend to heaven once their shell has expired?

Technically, that is an unanswerable question. However, I'm sure some people who regularly choose not to listen to what they "ought" to do maintain some semblance of faith as fire insurance, so to speak.


Is faith simply learned from our environmental and social circumstances? Is there any choice in faith, or like other conditions do some people simply have it and some don't based on their genetic makeup?

I think those are great questions too. Different people are compelled in different ways. If someone ends up believing because of conscience or creation or genetics or family upbringing, then great. Some people come to faith trying to prove it wrong! I think everyone is capable of believing. I maintain that Truth will always surface one way or another at one time or another no matter what that Truth is.


I ask these things because I have never had faith...

We all have faith. We will believe in something based on the evidence that supports it. So, I would say, even you have faith in the beliefs you hold based on the evidence that supports them.


I consider myself to be a non-believer, however I can imagine eventually coming to a point in my life where I might yearn for spiritual enlightenment of sorts. To believe in something that one can thank for every good thing that happens in life and to potentially blame for all of the bad, to believe that every occurrence in life is part of some grand design... to have hope... for humanity, for the world and for myself.

Many times it seems that life's circumstances bring us to a point where we are more likely to take the step of faith, if you will. ...To believe there is something more than to what only meets the eye. Maybe it's when we are holding our minutes-old child in our arms. Perhaps it is when we are shedding tears over the casket of a loved one. There are many, many, scenarios in life that push us to think outside the limited natural realm.


I simply cannot understand the ability of people to 'let go' of logic and reason in order to have faith, and so I cannot foresee doing so myself.

I don't think "letting go" is the right term. I would say it's more of an "embracing" of the reality that science cannot measure, but is innately known. Like you, I consider myself a thinking person. But, I also consider myself a believer as well. I don't think there needs to be a line separating intellect and faith.


I wish that more science and proof were available so that I could embrace these things that many people hold sacred, however I understand that that goes against the very definition of faith. I also understand that I am condemning myself to an eternity of suffering in the pits of Hell if I am wrong, yet I resign myself to my faults if they are faults and am content to be true to myself.

Actually, the more we know and the more science is able to show, the more likely we are to have faith. The more details we discover about our universe, the less we can pawn it off on chance.


I am confused.

If you enjoy reading, there are a couple of books I recommend.

Mere Christianity which can be found in it's entirety online:

C.S.Lewis. Mere christianity (http://www.lib.ru/LEWISCL/mere_engl.txt)

And Letters From a Skeptic...

Amazon.com: Letters from a Skeptic: A Son Wrestles with His Father's Questions about Christianity (0612608762442): Greg Boyd, Edward Boyd, Dr. Gregory A. Boyd, Edward K. Boyd: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Letters-Skeptic-Wrestles-Questions-Christianity/dp/1564762440)

All in all, I think this passage from Acts 17 sums it up nicely:

"From one man God made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us."

I appreciate the replies, and though I do not consider myself to be a believer, nonetheless I often find myself moved to tears by the conviction and faith of others, as has happened here.

As I have said in other posts, I enjoy learning as much about various religions as I can, and I'm not sure whether I do it for enjoyment or maybe I'm actually subconsciously looking for a particular religion that provides the answers that I'm looking for.

If there is a path to faith, then I am certainly just starting along it and am not sure whether I will ever reach the end, but it is very hard for me to conceive that people can accept Jesus or whatever your particular religions counterpart is without keeping an open mind that they might be wrong, same as I find it hard to believe that people can be so ignorant as to be adamant that there is no possibility of a higher power whatsoever.

Whether or not there is a higher power, there can be no denying that by and far, religion has had a positive impact on the societies of the world... sure, there have been the occasional hiccups in that idea, but for the most part, as I understand it, religion is about love, tolerance and decency.. all of which I do my best to adhere to short of believing. Well, I have a tendency to ramble, and I think I'm starting to do so, so I'll end it here.

I appreciate the replies, and though I do not consider myself to be a believer, nonetheless I often find myself moved to tears by the conviction and faith of others, as has happened here.

As I have said in other posts, I enjoy learning as much about various religions as I can, and I'm not sure whether I do it for enjoyment or maybe I'm actually subconsciously looking for a particular religion that provides the answers that I'm looking for.

If there is a path to faith, then I am certainly just starting along it and am not sure whether I will ever reach the end, but it is very hard for me to conceive that people can accept Jesus or whatever your particular religions counterpart is without keeping an open mind that they might be wrong, same as I find it hard to believe that people can be so ignorant as to be adamant that there is no possibility of a higher power whatsoever.

Whether or not there is a higher power, there can be no denying that by and far, religion has had a positive impact on the societies of the world... sure, there have been the occasional hiccups in that idea, but for the most part, as I understand it, religion is about love, tolerance and decency.. all of which I do my best to adhere to short of believing. Well, I have a tendency to ramble, and I think I'm starting to do so, so I'll end it here.
You certainly come off as a very respectful non-believer (sounds like agnostic may be a better word). It's like a breath of fresh air around here. :tiphat:

Amen

how can one obtain faith? by marrying someone determined to help them along the way.

I think Luke said it very well and I would just like to add that I feel like I am "embracing logic" when I consider the possibility of a creator/after-life. If I was a betting man (which I am) and was given the heads up bet of creation vs. evolution from a single cell being (without guidance from a creator)....I would take the creator side.

I think non-believers and believers alike talk too much in terms of absolute sometimes, when neither of us truly know for sure. I can only go by my experiences and come to what I think is a logical conclusion. Life seems random and at some points and not so random at others.....that 2nd half is what pulls me towards the belief in a creator/religion camp.

My decision is simply this: I am a better person believing what I beleive in and adhering to those principles than not.

My decision is simply this: I am a better person believing what I beleive in and adhering to those principles than not.

I consider myself to be a pretty decent human being, never been arrested for anything, try to help people when I can and all of that. Do you feel that you are a better person on the inside, maybe having some sense of purity or righteousness or do you mean you are a better person outwardly?

I consider myself to be a pretty decent human being, never been arrested for anything, try to help people when I can and all of that. Do you feel that you are a better person on the inside, maybe having some sense of purity or righteousness or do you mean you are a better person outwardly?

Good question. I think religion (in it's proper context) continually makes you look inward to ensure you are being the type of person to other's that God has called you to be. So it is definitely "outwardly" in definition. I DO NOT feel that I have some sort of "righteous" mentality...at all. I have been in those enivornments before and it is an instant turnoff.

I appreciate what you just said about looking inward to see if you are where you need to be. The difference in traditional religion and much of the gobbly gook that I see these days is just that - a failure to instill in the "believer" the need to look inward and evaluate your own motivations and actions before focusing on what others are doing.

A sense of purity. Candidly, Fanusen, you sound pretty darn spiritual, to me, even if you don't espouse a particular religious doctrine/theology. Aren't you answering to what inside of you is telling you to do/be? What does it matter what you know or what you believe if you are are trying to adjust yourself to what you feel called towards?

A sense of purity. Candidly, Fanusen, you sound pretty darn spiritual, to me, even if you don't espouse a particular religious doctrine/theology. Aren't you answering to what inside of you is telling you to do/be? What does it matter what you know or what you believe if you are are trying to adjust yourself to what you feel called towards?

I think that it all depends on our motivations. I consider myself to be a good person by the things that I do or do not do, but I would also say that my outward 'goodness' is tempered by what I feel and think inside and by the motivations that I have for doing them.

I realize that this idea may seem a bit radical, but I have looked inside myself and this is what I've found. I subscribe to the idea that every action that a person takes in their lifetime is taken for purely selfish (egoistic) reasons VARIETIES OF EGOISM AND HEDONISM (http://faculty.washington.edu/wtalbott/phil240/trego.htm) , so when I do something that others consider to be a good deed or helpful etc, I am doing it only because I gain something from my action, even if it simply makes me feel good to help someone, that is my motivation, not the desire to do the act of helping someone. I am a selfish person, and I am not ashamed to say so, because I believe that all people are, and that I find a bit of purity by tracing actions and reactions back to their bases: Egoism.... Ok, think I may have gotten off point a bit here, but suffice it to say, I don't think that spirituality in any way motivates me at this point.

Yes, in a way I am being selfish by not accepting religion into my life, but I also would be selfish if I did.

Among my frieds I am known as a do-gooder, always willing to help someone in need. I am often kidded by having "saint" placed before my name. The ones that really know me are privy to my real motivations and they are the same as yours. It took reading Ayn Rand's The Virture of Selfishness to understand myself. It is strange how painful it was to admit it to myself. But I finally realized that it really doesn't matter if one knows why he is "good" as long as he is and is fairly consistent with it.

Relax and be grateful that you get to reap the rewards that go with being nice, polite, fair and helpful, without being phony or forced.

I've heard that theory about being motivated for selfish reasons but the fact is, a lot of times people have multiple reasons to do contradictory things. If they consistently do the "right" thing, I think that says something, particularly if they aren't motivated by a fear of hell/hope of heaven.


I don't think you are a bit off point. The essense of introspection is to examine your own motivations and you are doing that to be honest to yourself. What is the value in that? You tell me.

Any why is being a good person important to you - why does doing the right thing make you feel like a good person?

Faith is not blind belief, suspending intellect or questions. That definition is the first thing you need to discard.

I'm not sure which of us you are asking, Eco, but I am going to elaborate based on you question.

By definition life is more pleasant when people around you are friendly and helpful. The best way to assure that the world around you is like that is to be that way. One of my "quirks" is that I am (pleasantly) driven to make the person at the checkout counter laugh and engage them in friendly conversation. Another is that if I think someone is being dishonest with me I never try to "catch them" in that lie; instead I suggest a different answer along with the reason they made that "mistake." I have no enemies that I know of. I am good because it makes life good. Selfishishness is not the same as being stingy or even selfcentered. Oh, one more point, in real life most of my humor is selfdepricating. That helps too.

I hear people complain constantly about how they are treated by this person or that, by this store or that or this cop or that. Hmmm, I wonder why people are always nice to me. Because I'm selfish. :Smiley063

I am not sure I believe in the "going to Heaven" part. I definately don't believe in the "going to hell". With that said, there is a bit of scientific evidence to believe that we do have a soul. You might try reading up on some old Edgar Caycee books regarding reincarnation. Someone might correct me here, but I believe the entire buddah religion is made up of a reincarnation doctrine.

My limited brain can not grasp the notion of a Supreme Being, yet the very big bang itself lends itself to that very thing. For people to be hypnotized, and "regressed" and then speak in languages that they've never learned, about subjects they've never studied will give at least a little bit of science to the whole reincarnation theory. And it does not go contrary to God or Jesus Christ either.

If your soul is nourished, (being good, doing the right thing to others, abhorring evil) then it grows. As it grows it becomes godly. Then the shell dies, and the properly nourished soul is reincarnated into another body (newborn). This would be a good explanation why very young children seem to remember past lives. (I did, according to my Mother, as did my son)

If you don't nourish the soul, it withers and dies.... (hell). Perhaps God, and the golden rule is food and education for the growing soul, and each life experience helps to shape the soul for it's next incarnation. That would explain retardations, childhood diseases and deaths, etc...

The devil is human condition of temptation and corruption. And that is simply a matter of failure to abhor evil and to feed the soul.

If I'm right, my soul moves on and I achieve the "eternal life" that's promised. If I'm wrong, I merely die like everyone else, with a healthy soul, and a good memory of me in others.... Either way, I win in the end!

I've always known that my Christian friends were much happier, content, less worried, etc etc .... basically because every decision they make isn't something they really have to stress over.. 'it's in God's hands' or ' the Lord led us here and will take care of everything" on an on...

They don't have to be really responsible for anything nor do they have to worry too much about things because they know God is in control and that if they pray about it, they will find the answers.

It would be an ideal existence to have that sort of infallible, incredible faith.. but I think I've learned over the years.. either you have it or you don't.

You can't force it .. of course, you can try to surround yourself with like-minded people (ie church/bible study) but there is always this little shadow of a doubt in the back of your mind. Most people I talk to that have true faith never question the existence of God.. 'he just is.. are you crazy'? Look at that rainbow? How can you not believe?' lol Their faith is just a pure feeling of 'knowing' that God is watching over them. I think it's a peaceful way to live.. wish I had unwavering faith but I have a logical streak that just won't let me mind go to burning bushes and omnipotent beings hovering in the clouds.

I'm not sure if you can overcome those niggling doubts and just go along with the flow.... because you'll never feel sincere or true to yourself if you pretend to believe in something that you really don't feel.

Very well expressed, Karried. I envy those people, too. One simply cannot force a belief on himself, dadgummit.

I also have a strong, logical, skeptical streak but I was blessed with just "knowing" there was something greater than what we "know" from as early as I remember.

If your soul is nourished, (being good, doing the right thing to others, abhorring evil) then it grows. As it grows it becomes godly.

What is evil?

From Dictionary.com

e⋅vil [ee-vuhl]

–adjective
1. morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.
2. harmful; injurious: evil laws.
3. characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous: to be fallen on evil days.
4. due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character: an evil reputation.
5. marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc.: He is known for his evil disposition.

–noun
6. that which is evil; evil quality, intention, or conduct: to choose the lesser of two evils.
7. the force in nature that governs and gives rise to wickedness and sin.
8. the wicked or immoral part of someone or something: The evil in his nature has destroyed the good.
9. harm; mischief; misfortune: to wish one evil.
10. anything causing injury or harm: Tobacco is considered by some to be an evil.
11. a harmful aspect, effect, or consequence: the evils of alcohol.
12. a disease, as king's evil.
–adverb
13. in an evil manner; badly; ill: It went evil with him.
—Idiom
14. the evil one, the devil; Satan.



If I'm understanding the definition correctly, it seems to me that more or less anything one does could be considered evil, because most everything has a potential to harm, yet the definition barely takes into account what a persons intentions or motivations are. If you take into consideration possible 'Butterfly Effects' scenarios, noone is safe from our individual evils.

What are acceptable evils? Is it only considered to be evil if the act is committed upon a being with a soul, and if that is the case, what is the criteria for that?




On a side note, years ago I acquired what I believe to be a First Class relic of Saint John Neumann complete with Papal seal. Being that I am currently a non-believer, would the church consider it sacrilegious for me to be in possession of it, and if so, would the same be said for my rosary and saint medal collections?

but there is always this little shadow of a doubt in the back of your mind. Most people I talk to that have true faith never question the existence of God..

I wonder how honest these people are being? Every Christian I know has doubted at one time or another....

I wonder how honest these people are being? Every Christian I know has doubted at one time or another....

There is a difference between doubting the existence of god and the truthfulness of a particular doctrine. I suspect people from any religion, if they think about it all, wonder if it is correct. But I honestly believe there are plenty of people who have always felt "god" in their life. Maybe that is the difference. If you narrow "god" down to what fits in a narrow theology, it is easier to have doubts. If you merely accept he exists without trying to define him, it just isn't the same level of doubt. IMO.