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metro
07-16-2009, 07:36 AM
Don't worry, the title is just for laugh's, but the media IS throwing around that title. Anyone see Oklahoma County's push for a new jail? Don't get me wrong, I do think we need one, and I hope they do move it away from downtown. I know this has been talked about for years and they have been looking at land in the east county, but before it was supposively going to cost more to build new. Now the estimates are coming in cheaper to build new than to renovate our poorly built county jail.

Thoughts?

The Journal Record - Article (http://www.journalrecord.com/article.cfm?recid=100645)

New Oklahoma County jail could cost $390M or more
by Sean Murphy
Associated Press July 16, 2009

OKLAHOMA CITY – A new jail could cost Oklahoma County more than $390 million, and renovating the facility that has been troubled by inmate escapes, suicides and violent clashes among inmates could cost even more, architects told county officials Wednesday.

An architectural firm hired by the county told commissioners a new 3,376-bed jail built on a 50-acre site would cost an estimated $391 million and require at least 300 new jail employees.Officials with Frankfurt-Short-Bruza also told commissioners that renovating and expanding the nearly 20-year-old jail would cost about $436 million and require about 400 additional employees.
“It’s certainly significant numbers, significantly more than we anticipated,” Oklahoma County Commissioner Ray Vaughn said. “We always talked about the possible renovation and annex costing somewhere around $120 million. This obviously blows that number right out of the ballpark.”

The 13-story building in downtown Oklahoma City has had problems since it was built in 1991. Within a year, at least a half dozen inmates escaped by pushing out decorative glass blocks and using bed sheets to climb down brick walls.

But the push for major upgrades grew after the U.S. Justice Department issued a scathing report on the facility last year. The report, which cited lax supervision, inmate violence and excessive force by guards, threatened a federal lawsuit if a resolution wasn’t reached.

Oklahoma County Sheriff John Whetsel, who manages the jail, said major changes have been made since the report was released, including increased training for officers and more scrutiny on every incident involving force. But Whetsel conceded the facility’s design is not ideal for housing the more than 2,200 inmates kept there.

Curtiss Pulitzer, an architect hired by FSB who specializes in the design of jail facilities, agreed with Whetsel.

“Physically, the place is clean and they run it well,” he said, “but the staffing needs are just tremendous because it’s a poorly designed facility.”
Pulitzer said the housing units are not designed to allow direct supervision of inmates by jail staff, who instead monitor inmates from control rooms where it’s difficult to see and interact with prisoners.

“Direct supervision results in much calmer institutions with fewer assaults on staff, fewer assaults on inmates, just a better operation all around,” Pulitzer said.

Vaughn said commissioners will work with FSB over the next few months to see what costs can be cut before the firm issues its final report in September. But something has to be done with the current jail, he said, describing it as “woefully inadequate.”

“We need to address that issue or we face the possibility of a federal lawsuit and the possibility of a takeover of our facility by the federal government,” he said.

Vaughn said he favors a countywide sales tax to help fund improvements or the construction of a new facility.

“Oklahoma County has no county sales tax, so I think it’s reasonable to look at that as a source,” he said.

A 1-cent countywide sales tax would generate about $120 million annually, although Vaughn said he would propose something less than that to pay for a new jail.

Patrick
07-16-2009, 07:42 AM
I'm sorry, but I'll be voting no on a new prison. The current prison isn't that old, and although it has its problems, why do we need to spend more tax dollars for a nicer prison? The one we have will work for the inmates.

metro
07-16-2009, 07:44 AM
I'm sorry, but I'll be voting know on a new prison. The current prison isn't that old, and although it has its problems, why do we need to spend more tax dollars for a nicer prison? The one we have will work for the inmates.

You mean "NO"? Well for one it is over-crowded and has no room for future growth. Unfortunately crime isn't dying out anytime soon. It's an eyesore for downtown, poorly built, etc.

westsidesooner
07-16-2009, 08:47 AM
I know the county jail has it problems. Its ugly, it was poorly built (or designed) and its to small to house the current, let alone future inmates. How did a boondogle like this ever get built? Who was the general contractor for the current county jail? And why was it so poorly built? Decorative glass blocks......gimme a break.

I understand that a prison is going to cost much more than an average retail or commercial building but $391,000,000.00? Are you kidding me? Even harder to figure still is the cost to renovate and add on to the current jail at $436,700,000.00. Are the bars made of gold? Do the "decorative" glass blocks have diamond chips in them? Heres a list of comparissons for other notable projects.

Comparing project costs
→Proposed new Oklahoma County jail: $391.1 million
→Proposed renovated/expanded Oklahoma County jail: $436.7 million

→Existing jail: Completed in 1991 for $52 million

→New Cleveland County jail under construction: $45 million

→Bricktown Ballpark: Completed in 1998 for $34 million

→Ford Center: Opened in 2002 for $87.7 million

→MAPS for Kids: More than 100 school projects for $470 million (scheduled for completion in 2012)

I have absolutely no compassion for career criminals who probably make up the majority of the current jail population. I dont think you end up there for minor or first time offenses. How about charging them rent.

The costs as mentioned are mind-blowing.

metro
07-16-2009, 08:51 AM
westside, can you compare the costs to other similarly sized jails in other metro counties? Comparing it to Cleveland County or the Bricktown Ballpark, is apples and oranges.

Patrick
07-16-2009, 09:02 AM
I'm not opposed to building a new prison, but I think these prices are astronomical. I'd rather throw more money at the local school system than fund a new prison. Unfortunately, MAPS for kids isn't going to completely revitalize the OKC Public Schools like originally promised. They still need more money.

westsidesooner
07-16-2009, 09:02 AM
Nope....at least not right now. I got those figures form this mornings story in the Daily Oklahoman. I should have mentioned/given them credit for that. My bad. And yes, comparing Cleveland counties jail with the one in Oklahoma county is a strech.

I read that story first thing this morning and it blew my mind. Decided to put down the paper til I was in a better mood. lol I really dont have much experience in construction other than being on the blue collar side of it when I worked for an electrical contractor. But Im eager to learn just why it does cost so much? Any ideas Metro?

To be honest I couldnt care less about prisoner comfort.

gmwise
07-16-2009, 09:04 AM
I think we should build down one a large secured building above ground, the prisoner is secured till the building is secured. then elevator him/her down.
and for 20 floors or whatever there they are no way for escapes.
As for the cost its either we do something or the feds/state takes over and build a new county jail and no oversight by local administration and they will tax us with no recourse by county citizens, which I think Caddo County and one other that doesnt come to mind right now.

Patrick
07-16-2009, 09:07 AM
So let the feds/state build it. And a 20 story underground prison would be VERY expensive.

Pete
07-16-2009, 09:11 AM
Put them in Crossroads!

Patrick
07-16-2009, 09:13 AM
Put them in Crossroads!

Not a bad idea actually! :)

gmwise
07-16-2009, 09:14 AM
Patrick, its not going to be built for free, the feds will just levy it on taxpayers.

Patrick
07-16-2009, 09:17 AM
Patrick, its not going to be built for free, the feds will just levy it on taxpayers.

Yeah, but they'll cut costs. I doubt they would be building a $300 million + facility.

gmwise
07-16-2009, 09:18 AM
must i mention the 500$ hammer? lol

Pete
07-16-2009, 09:19 AM
I remember when the current facility was being built in the late 80's and how incredibly sad it was that the only construction of any type in downtown was for a jail.

How things have changed!

gmwise
07-16-2009, 09:21 AM
Thank god! eh

gmwise
07-16-2009, 09:22 AM
I remember how many people call it The Money Pit ,and to this day thats how I see it

westsidesooner
07-16-2009, 09:35 AM
Put them in Crossroads!

lol. Can we build a acid filled moat around it? Crossroads actually sounds like a good name for a jail too.

I keep thinking of Escape from New York and The condemned YouTube - Movie Trailer - The Condemned (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqlz_u7RvjA) Now all we need is an island and a network sick enough to show the series. Whats one more sick reality show.

Hmmm ppv could pay for the construction costs!!! :bright_id

I guess Im still confused on how the Sears-Willis Tower can be renovated for $350,000,000 and the new 50 story luxury hotel planned beside it would cost $225,000,000. Just what is so expensive in a jail as opposed to a luxury hotel?

OU Adonis
07-16-2009, 09:46 AM
How about charging them rent.



They are I believe. There was some law in 06 or 07 that has them charge a daily fee if the person is convicted.

Luke
07-16-2009, 10:14 AM
How about changing the laws a bit so we don't incarcerate so many people in the first place.

Incarceration Rate - Kaiser State Health Facts (http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparemaptable.jsp?ind=760&cat=1)

As it is, Oklahoma ranks 4th per capita in incarceration rate. Also, the US incarcerates more people than any other nation on the planet.

Something doesn't sound right.

Another thought... privatize the prisons. It's working elsewhere. It could work here and save us money.

westsidesooner
07-16-2009, 10:17 AM
It would be nice to see a breakdown of what crimes the current jail population is incarcerated for. Any stats like that available?

stick47
07-16-2009, 10:26 AM
Seems that a feasable solution would be to spend a little upgrading the present facility as needed plus build a smaller one to increase capacity.
If not that, then put the money into increasing the capacity of the state prison at Mcalister.

hoya
07-16-2009, 09:24 PM
Seeing as how I actually know something about this subject (for once), I'll chime in. There are a lot of misunderstandings floating around in this thread, and I'll try to clear them up. I go inside the county jail two or three times a week to see clients, so I'm fairly familiar with it and the problems it has.

First, don't refer to it as a "prison". It's a county jail. The difference is this. A prison is where people go after they've been convicted of felonies. A county jail is where you stay while you're waiting for your trial (or where you serve out a misdemeanor sentence). The people in the jail are generally not serving out a sentence, they are normally awaiting their day in court and have not been convicted. They're generally the very poor, people who can't afford to make bond (only a small handful of people are held without a bond).

Second, the Oklahoma County jail is woefully unsafe. It's unsafe for the prisoners, it's unsafe for the guards, and it's unsafe for those of us who go in there to talk to people. Whatever you think about the safety of the prisoners, I didn't commit any crimes, and I deserve to be safe when I do my job. The problem is that the jail is so poorly designed that the guards can see maybe 2% of the floor at any one time. There are numerous blind spots, places where a guard might only be fifteen feet away, but he can't see what is going on. That's bad design, and it leads to increased prisoner violence. It makes the guards feel unsafe, and so they're more likely to be violent (and the guards who are less... savory... know they can get away with more). It is unsettling to go into the jail to see a client and find that you're in a room with someone who might just be a murdering rapist, and the door has locked automatically behind you, and the nearest guard is sitting in a near-soundproof room with no windows halfway down the hall. A few years ago, a pregnant woman who was incarcerated in the jail died when she were left handcuffed to a railing in an out of the way place and then went into labor. Guards forgot she was there and left her there for several hours.

You know it's overcrowded, right? It's so overcrowded that they have to keep the male sex offenders housed on the women's floor of the jail. Oh, they keep them in a seperate wing, but those wings all empty out into the same hallways.

The jail needs to be useful. People have to come to and from the jail every day. Each day, inmates are taken out of their cells, transported to the courthouse, and then sent back. Each day, attorneys, families, psychiatrists, probation officers, and the cute little chicks who work for the court services office go into the jail to meet with various inmates. There's a LOT of people going in and out every day. There are also a lot of people who move about from floor to floor of the jail. You've got medical staff, guards, the chaplain, various inmates being moved from one floor to another, people bringing meals, etc, who all have to go back and forth throughout the building. And the problem is, the jail isn't useful. It can take twenty minutes to go from the second floor to the fourth floor. This costs county taxpayers money, because everything takes longer.

We do not have an option to simply not fix the jail. If we do that, the feds will come in, they won't be concerned with "cutting costs" (why would they? they won't be paying for it), and they'll build a new one.

Why are the costs so high? The Sears Tower renovations covered about 3 floors, as I understand it. The problem with the jail is it needs to be secure. It can't just be any old building. Crossroads? There's no way they could have any safe oversight of that building.

Luke
07-16-2009, 09:31 PM
How in the world was it allowed to be so poorly designed in the first place?

dismayed
07-16-2009, 09:35 PM
For starters, the folks of Oklahoma County need to fire wingnut Wetzel's ass. He's in charge, the federal findings fall squarely at his feet. In addition to that, he's the guy that tried to do an end-run around the city council a few years ago to get a new jail built. I have no doubt he's at the center of the current effort.

It makes no sense. The jail's problems are personnel related. They are trying to justify spending a huge amount of money on a new jail so that they can keep track of the prisoners with the number of jailers they have.

Here's a thought: if you quadruple the number of jailers and employ them for ten years I guarantee you that those costs WILL NOT EXCEED $400 MILLION. That being the case, there is no freaking way that this proposal makes any sense whatsoever from a return on investment standpoint. It's nuts.

hoya
07-16-2009, 09:40 PM
Dismayed, have you ever seen the inside of the jail?

Luke, I know the firm that designed it had never built a jail before. They didn't know what the hell they were doing.

okyeah
07-16-2009, 11:46 PM
hoyasooner, you should launch a grassroots campaign for this. I'd choose it over maps 384,733,545

USG '60
07-17-2009, 06:01 AM
And on top of everything else, the building contractors paid off all the inspectors to turn the proverbial blind eye. What did that first fix cost on the glass blocks, plumbing, etc? I forgot. All involved should have been shot or sent to Texas ...one or the other.

okcpulse
07-17-2009, 06:26 AM
I do know for a fact that the engineers designed the jail with plumbing that belongs in an office building, which is only in use 12 hours a day at most. And people are in office buildings to work, not to live.

Engineers did not take into account the fact that the jail, at full capacity or not, is in use 24 hours a day. The plumbing simply can't handle the capacity, hence all of the plumbing problems.

The people who designed this jail ought to be canned and sent down to the bottom of the barrel sector of the work force for the rest of their lives serving hot dogs and wearing a funny hat. Although I am sure 20 years later most of them are retired or otherwise.

Oil Capital
07-17-2009, 06:36 AM
Dismayed, have you ever seen the inside of the jail?

Luke, I know the firm that designed it had never built a jail before. They didn't know what the hell they were doing.

And didn't that firm go out of business, largely because of their work on the jail project?

Oil Capital
07-17-2009, 06:47 AM
westside, can you compare the costs to other similarly sized jails in other metro counties? Comparing it to Cleveland County or the Bricktown Ballpark, is apples and oranges.

Of the numbers quoted here so far, the Cleveland County jail seems the most appropriate comparison. Sure, it's a lot smaller, but it seems multiplying the constructions costs by the differential in number of beds should get you to a pretty good estimate. And it seems logical that a larger facility should be able to be built for less per bed than a smaller one.

I believe the Cleveland Co. Jail is slated to have something like 535 beds? This proposed OK Co jail is to have 3,376, 6.3 times as many as Cleveland Co.
6.3 x $45 Million = $283.5 Million.

westsidesooner
07-17-2009, 08:32 AM
Why are the costs so high? The Sears Tower renovations covered about 3 floors, as I understand it. The problem with the jail is it needs to be secure. It can't just be any old building. Crossroads? There's no way they could have any safe oversight of that building.

Hoya....excellent post. Thank you. I still wish I knew who was in chage of giving the "ok" on such a horrible design. And who was in charge of hiring a firm that had never built a jail before. Mind-blowing to the extreme. A jail is definitley not the place to cut corners.......I guess we got what we paid for huh...

As for my post on the sears/willis tower renovations I understand that you cant really compare the two, but my understanding is that the renovations will cover the entire tower. I didnt mean to be misleading or even try to compare the two eye for eye. I was just puzzled over how such a huge building could be revamped, or for that matter a fifty story hotel could be built for less money than is being proposed for a much smaller (though obviously more secure) jail building. I plead my ignornace in construction cost....but still curious.

The improvements, detailed on the Sears Tower website, Willis Tower - a global icon, a premier business location, a breathtaking skydeck view (http://www.willistower.com/) are to involve replacing and glazing the 16,000 single-pane windows; and upgrading boilers, elevators, escalators, lighting restroom fixtures and water management systems.

trousers
07-17-2009, 08:43 AM
[QUOTE=Luke;239174]How about changing the laws a bit so we don't incarcerate so many people in the first place.

Incarceration Rate - Kaiser State Health Facts (http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparemaptable.jsp?ind=760&cat=1)

As it is, Oklahoma ranks 4th per capita in incarceration rate. Also, the US incarcerates more people than any other nation on the planet.

Something doesn't sound right.

This.

bbhill
07-17-2009, 08:50 AM
How about we quit incarcerating so many nonviolent offenders like recreational marijuana users?

:backtotop

Patrick
07-17-2009, 10:07 AM
The contract went to the lowest bidder. The company has sense changed its name and actually built a dam or two on the Oklahoma River. So, the city is still using this contractor. Their current name: CP Integrated Services. Their name when they built the Oklahoma County jail: RGDC Inc.

bbhill
07-17-2009, 07:45 PM
The contract went to the lowest bidder. The company has sense changed its name and actually built a dam or two on the Oklahoma River. So, the city is still using this contractor. Their current name: CP Integrated Services. Their name when they built the Oklahoma County jail: RGDC Inc.

Hopefully these aren't the same people that screwed up the bridges on the west end of the Kilpatrick Turnpike. lol Perhaps Oklahoma should start looking at other issues in addition to cost?

hoya
07-18-2009, 11:44 AM
Hoya....excellent post. Thank you. I still wish I knew who was in chage of giving the "ok" on such a horrible design. And who was in charge of hiring a firm that had never built a jail before. Mind-blowing to the extreme. A jail is definitley not the place to cut corners.......I guess we got what we paid for huh...

As for my post on the sears/willis tower renovations I understand that you cant really compare the two, but my understanding is that the renovations will cover the entire tower. I didnt mean to be misleading or even try to compare the two eye for eye. I was just puzzled over how such a huge building could be revamped, or for that matter a fifty story hotel could be built for less money than is being proposed for a much smaller (though obviously more secure) jail building. I plead my ignornace in construction cost....but still curious.

The improvements, detailed on the Sears Tower website, Willis Tower - a global icon, a premier business location, a breathtaking skydeck view (http://www.willistower.com/) are to involve replacing and glazing the 16,000 single-pane windows; and upgrading boilers, elevators, escalators, lighting restroom fixtures and water management systems.

Then my bad on the Sears Tower. I saw something on the news about it, and my impression was the renovations were only supposed to cover 3 floors. But that might have been the 3 floors that Willis was moving their offices into.

I'm not exactly eager to pay more money in taxes for another jail. We really shouldn't have to build another one so soon after we built the last one, but it's one of those situations where we don't have much choice.

OUSoonerfan3
07-18-2009, 02:14 PM
The contract went to the lowest bidder. The company has sense changed its name and actually built a dam or two on the Oklahoma River. So, the city is still using this contractor. Their current name: CP Integrated Services. Their name when they built the Oklahoma County jail: RGDC Inc.

So RGDC, a national design firm based out of Miami, FL became CPI, a small Oklahoma based road and bridge building company? Really?

On edit: Manhattan Construction was the General Contractor for the jail. HTB and RGDC were the architect/engineering firms.

mugofbeer
07-18-2009, 09:44 PM
I had to laugh when I saw someone bring up the same thought I had a few weeks ago. Crossroads Mall is going out of business. It will be closed within a year or two. Why NOT think outside the box and use it for a county jail? I am not an architect or an engineer but I know Denver was considering buying and converting an old warehouse into a city jail before the residents of the nearby neighborhoods complained too much. There aren't any residential areas within 1/4 mile of the actual mall building at Crossroads. It would be a good place for it and would show the city / county is trying to be prudent with taxpayer money.

bdl1411
07-18-2009, 11:44 PM
Maybe the incarceration rate is so high because the United States has a better police force and judicial system than most, if not all other countries? Maybe it's that combined with the industrialization of the US creating lots of cites in which people are living together, creating more crime..and we hold them accountable.

Or the United States judges are overzealous dictator a-holes. I really have no clue...but I think maybe my idea is plausible.....maybe...

Luke
07-19-2009, 12:50 PM
Maybe it's that combined with the industrialization of the US creating lots of cites in which people are living together, creating more crime..and we hold them accountable.

What's the crime in someone who wants to do drugs? Other than someone saying it is?

If we're going to legislate people's lives that much, then how about we legislate the food they each. Heart disease is the number one killer in the US. We've levied heavy taxes on tobacco, why not tax producers of foods with a certain fat content.

Why not? Because people should be free. Free to be stupid, free to be fat, free to smoke... Free to do what they want as long as the don't harm anyone else. And as soon as they do, then they should be accountable to those actions.

bdl1411
07-19-2009, 02:16 PM
What's the crime in someone who wants to do drugs? Other than someone saying it is?

If we're going to legislate people's lives that much, then how about we legislate the food they each. Heart disease is the number one killer in the US. We've levied heavy taxes on tobacco, why not tax producers of foods with a certain fat content.

Why not? Because people should be free. Free to be stupid, free to be fat, free to smoke... Free to do what they want as long as the don't harm anyone else. And as soon as they do, then they should be accountable to those actions.

Drugs often lead to crime with the users' heads being tripped out. Even if it doesn't, the addict becomes an unproductive drain on society. In jail he does this too...but at least there's some deterrence set up....in the form of DARE not to do drugs or enjoy your stay in jail.

Fat people don't hurt people physically...beside their eyes. They are not more likely to hold up a convenience store in order to pay for their fix of twinkies.

I am not saying all addicts are violent..I'm just saying it does increase the propensity towards it and renders them pretty ineffective at liiiiiiiiiiife.

USG '60
07-19-2009, 03:24 PM
Luke, let's also mention that besides being free to be stupid and/or fat they should also be free to suffer the consequences without you, me and others bailing their butts out and paying their bills.

BD, that isn't hard to understand is it?

Freedom was never meant to be easy on individuals. There are decisions to be made and consequences to be paid. We need to pay our own tuition to the school of Hard Knocks.

bdl1411
07-19-2009, 08:31 PM
I understand what you are saying, I just don't agree.

Luke
07-19-2009, 10:17 PM
Drugs often lead to crime with the users' heads being tripped out.

Then why don't we outlaw alcohol?

mugofbeer
07-19-2009, 10:21 PM
We already have alcohol, we don't need another one by legalizing pot. We already have to worry about drunk drivers, why worry about stoned employees, stoned drivers, stoned neighbors running over our children while they back out of the driveway (yes, it happened in my neighborhood in Denver).

Smokin Joe
07-19-2009, 10:35 PM
[QUOTE=Luke;239174]As it is, Oklahoma ranks 4th per capita in incarceration rate. Something doesn't sound right.



Yea... You can Thank Valley Brook for that one....


How about we quit incarcerating so many nonviolent offenders like recreational marijuana users?



No Kiddin.. But hey.. We got 3.2 beer... and can't even buy a bottle of wine at the grocery store as we go home and cook dinner....

We don;t need a new Jail, we need a new way of thinking...

I love Oklahoma, God and Freedom, but sometimes we are just so backwards.

Joe

bdl1411
07-19-2009, 11:58 PM
Then why don't we outlaw alcohol?

Beats me, it worked delightfully well the first time. ; )

hoya
07-20-2009, 08:50 AM
I don't want to get into the whole outlawing drugs thing. Drugs mess you up, period. Whether people should be free to flush their lives away, that's a question bigger than our next county jail. Remember, freedom isn't just some blanket ability to act as you want in all situations.

Again, we can't turn Crossroads into a new county jail. Well, we could, but it would be a bad idea. It's not designed as a jail. We'd basically have to tear our the entire inside and rebuild it. It's so far removed from what a jail looks like that it's not even funny.

Luke
07-20-2009, 09:05 AM
Remember, freedom isn't just some blanket ability to act as you want in all situations.

Just how you want them to act?

I'm against drug abuse just as much as most people are. I want people to live happy, healthy, productive lives. However, if people want to eat big macs everyday, smoke a pack a day, go bungee jumping, cliff diving, fire walking or do drugs... that's their business and the government should certainly not care.

Don't get me wrong, people should care when someone is doing something bad for themselves. And people DO care. That's why family, friends, churches, organizations, non-profits and the like are availalbe - to try to help people. But government mandated don't-do-this-to-yourself-because-I-say-so? Nah.

I think some of you think that if a certain government agency didn't exist, then those people would all be screwed. Realistically, more often than not, taxpayers are being screwed and a non-profit, church, family or friends would do a much better job.

DaveSkater
07-20-2009, 09:30 AM
So RGDC, a national design firm based out of Miami, FL became CPI, a small Oklahoma based road and bridge building company? Really?

On edit: Manhattan Construction was the General Contractor for the jail. HTB and RGDC were the architect/engineering firms.

Truth. My company bid on the electrical portion of that job. Thank God we were not successful in our bid with one of Manhattan's competitors.

CPI was definately not a player. LOL

hoya
07-20-2009, 09:53 AM
Just how you want them to act?

I'm against drug abuse just as much as most people are. I want people to live happy, healthy, productive lives. However, if people want to eat big macs everyday, smoke a pack a day, go bungee jumping, cliff diving, fire walking or do drugs... that's their business and the government should certainly not care.

Don't get me wrong, people should care when someone is doing something bad for themselves. And people DO care. That's why family, friends, churches, organizations, non-profits and the like are availalbe - to try to help people. But government mandated don't-do-this-to-yourself-because-I-say-so? Nah.

I think some of you think that if a certain government agency didn't exist, then those people would all be screwed. Realistically, more often than not, taxpayers are being screwed and a non-profit, church, family or friends would do a much better job.

Then go out and participate in the political process. Vote. Make your voice heard. Change the law. "Freedom" is primarily political freedom (along with your other protected rights). You can exercise that freedom and get laws changed. Or maybe you can't. Maybe most people disagree with you and feel that drugs should be illegal. What freedom isn't is the ability to just go out and ignore the law because you don't like it.

But that's all a conversation I don't want to get into.

Drake
07-20-2009, 09:58 AM
Well, you guys successfully knocked this thread off track.

I remember walking in that jail a few years ago to visit a couple friends who work there. DISGUSTING. I had been in the old jail across the street (think Shawshank or The Green Mile) but it was better for its purpose than that new jail.

They are in an office that has constant water leaks thru the ceiling. Its take about 10 minutes to see the piss poor construction.

Luke
07-20-2009, 10:04 AM
Then go out and participate in the political process. Vote. Make your voice heard. Change the law. "Freedom" is primarily political freedom (along with your other protected rights). You can exercise that freedom and get laws changed. Or maybe you can't. Maybe most people disagree with you and feel that drugs should be illegal. What freedom isn't is the ability to just go out and ignore the law because you don't like it.

But that's all a conversation I don't want to get into.

Ah, but I do. :)

Of course, I vote, that's a given.

I understand that I must work within the shackles of our current system. However, I think we aren't so shackled we can't change something.

I've contact all my representatives regularly (even in the past week!). I spoke with one on the phone for about 30 minutes the other day regarding health insurance. It was great.

I've knocked doors for campaigns.

I've donated to freedom fighting, liberty loving candidates.

I've considered running for something... merely entertaining that idea. :)

I post here and try to help people see that we may not need as much government as we think.

I actually do what I can.

Midtowner
07-20-2009, 10:19 AM
The bottom line here isn't really whether this is something we ought to spring for. The only question here is how much it'll cost. $400MM might really be a bargain compared with what the feds will do if they take over the facility. Before making up my mind, I'd want to see what similar projects have cost the taxpayers elsewhere. If this can be constructed during a down economy where labor and materials are relatively cheap, we could get a real bargain.

There really is no "if" we get a new jail, only a "when." It'll need to go somewhere near downtown in order to be near the courthouse unless we also want to build a new courthouse annex to the new jail. That'd render a lot of expensive holding facilities at the current courthouse (on the top floors) useless.

I don't know what it costs to build a downtown jail. Maybe $400MM is reasonable. You can believe if the feds take over it'll probably run a lot more than that. The current facility is by all accounts unable to be fixed. Sometimes it's best to just cut your losses and move on. I don't think we know all of the facts here, so passing judgment as to this estimate, is IMHO, premature.

hoya
07-20-2009, 12:37 PM
The floors on top of the courthouse need renovations, too. :) Even simply bringing people over for court means those floors exceed their capacity as determined by the fire marshall.

kevinpate
07-21-2009, 04:34 AM
I'm starting to like the convert crossroads suggestion.
detainees get the old foley's
judges get the old JCP
clerks get the old wards
DA and P-defenders each get floor in old Dillard's
Fill the small store fronts with probation, drug testing, an office supply place, foodie halls, etc.

urbanity
08-05-2009, 07:54 AM
With MAPS 3 ramping up and a city vote looming, will Oklahoma County taxpayers say yea or nay to a costly jail?

New report slaps needed county jail overhaul with huge price tag | OKG Scene.com (http://www.okgazette.com/p/12776/a/4422/Default.aspx?ReturnUrl=LwBEAGUAZgBhAHUAbAB0AC4AYQB zAHAAeAAslashAHAAPQAxADIANwAyADkA)

warreng88
11-19-2009, 07:33 AM
Quote for new Oklahoma county jail decreases

County officials say they hope to take prices for the construction down to $200 million; new location cuts cost
BY JOHN ESTUS
Published: November 19, 2009

Oklahoma County commissioners got a cheaper quote Wednesday for a new jail and were told building it is the best way to fix the county’s dilemma.

The recommendation means the county will likely ask voters to approve funding for a new jail next spring, District 3 Commissioner Ray Vaughn said.

It would cost about $310 million to build a new jail within 10 miles of downtown, according to an estimate presented to commissioners Wednesday by local architecture firm Frankfurt Short Bruza.

"There’s more than just the building and the cost. Now we’ve got to talk about, of course, the funding methods,” Vaughn said. "There’s a lot of issues left to be decided.”

A funding method, final cost and location for a new jail are undetermined.

For more than a year, commissioners and an advisory committee have been researching whether it is best to build a new jail or fix the existing jail, which has seen numerous problems since opening in 1991.

The problems culminated last year when the U.S. Justice Department issued a report decrying the jail as a place where inmates’ constitutional rights are routinely violated by uncontrolled violence, poor medical care and chronic overcrowding.

County officials have since reached an agreement with the Justice Department to avoid serious and costly sanctions for the problems detailed in the report. The agreement is contingent on fixing problems at the existing jail or building a new one.

Architects managed to shave $81 million off the estimated cost for a new jail delivered to commissioners this summer, but it remains far above what county officials had anticipated.

Vaughn said officials will continue to look for ways to reduce the cost of the construction project in an effort to get it "in the $200 million range.”

The nation’s poor economy might help the county cut costs, Vaughn said. Bids for county capital projects have been coming in much cheaper than normal recently.

"The contractors are hungry and they need work,” Vaughn said.

The proposal that commissioners received this summer estimated the cost for a new jail at $391 million and a renovated jail at $436 million. The cheaper costs presented Wednesday were achieved mostly by reducing capacity by 500 beds to about 2,800, Vaughn said.

Renovating the existing jail was priced at $279 million in the revised estimate, but the estimate also said building a new jail outside downtown would save $24 million in annual operating costs in the next decade over renovating the existing building.

For that reason, commissioners were told the most cost-efficient long term solution is building a new jail.

NewsOK (http://newsok.com/quote-for-new-oklahoma-county-jail-decreases/article/3418654)

kevinpate
11-19-2009, 08:48 AM
making it smaller is an interesting choice. Weren't they using excess bad space to hold inmates for others at a fee, helping with operational costs until the beds were needed due to local growth.

Curious also how new and not downtown saves 234M in operational costs over renovating downtown? Seems a Q a reporter might have asked. Maybe ran out of alloted space and there will be a followup. One can dream.