I got this from Steve's blog:

Canal Connection (http://www.canalconnection.com/)

Wow, that's an exciting website...

That would be truly awesome.

What a great place to live/own a business that area would be.

I also like how it purposely runs along or through open parking lots to help fuel new businesses and buildings on those parking lots.

They are using the Northern Canal extension to help sell that area of Bricktown and revive it, it looks like. There's really no other reason for that canal extension. But that's okay. I'd love to see the Coca Cola Parking lot to be infilled, or at least partially along that canal extension because that street could be a true extension of Bricktown.

http://www.canalconnection.com/conceptual.jpg

Looks like the north extension would be a good boost for new development along the parking lots as architect mentioned. Very exciting. The West expansion looks pretty ambitious to me, however.

Poorly thought out and unnecessarily ambitious for starters. Nice graphics, tho.

This is a little extensive. What is this, like the plan over the next 75 years?

I liked the original idea to extend it from Harkins across that parking lot, hug the train wall, then replace Reno to the Myriad Gardens. The cost of the original canal was $23 million in 1999. I could see this part of the project easily topping $75 million.

I hope anyone that wants to build near the canal can also do underground parking because I could see a lot of it being eliminated due to the canal running through it and development popping up on either side.

That area where it says Future Development. Is that where those rundowm mills and that Oklahoma's 100th Birthday graphic painted on an old building reside? I sure can't wait for those buildings to be demolished.

Yes, Thunder, that's the site of the current co-op which has been for sale for about a year now.

Yes, Thunder, that's the site of the current co-op which has been for sale for about a year now.

It's a miracle!!! :LolLolLol

The co-op is beautiful. It adds interest to the city, acknowledges the state's agriculture industry, and doesn't look like the rest of the city. The new boathouse row on the river, with its shiny metal buildings, echo the co-op's materials and shapes. I think there is almost no chance that anything that replaces the co-op will be as interesting or beautiful. More likely it will look like the schlock that is lower Bricktown. Does anyone agree with me? Can't anyone else appreciate that old industrial buildings have their own aesthetic beauty and interest?

Taurus, I've opened my mind to what you are saying and can see that point of view. I used to think more like Thunder on those buildings.

But I agree, it's one of the very few things that are unique about OKC and I think we should look hard at adaptive use for at least some of them.

Otherwise, until I see some evidence to the contrary, I would expect whatever replaces it to be quite unremarkable.

The co-op is beautiful. It adds interest to the city, acknowledges the state's agriculture industry, and doesn't look like the rest of the city. The new boathouse row on the river, with its shiny metal buildings, echo the co-op's materials and shapes. I think there is almost no chance that anything that replaces the co-op will be as interesting or beautiful. More likely it will look like the schlock that is lower Bricktown. Does anyone agree with me? Can't anyone else appreciate that old industrial buildings have their own aesthetic beauty and interest?

I feel the same way about hubcap alley. The run down buildings and open fields where the old buildings have either burned or been condemned make me think of the simpler times and the automotive part and salvage yard history of that part of the city.

I also particularly enjoy the abandoned homeless shelter.

I find the Co-op interesting, but not beautiful by any means.

If it were up to me, I would demolish most of it. But I do see the beauty that some people find in it. I think part of it should remain, maybe one of the larger mills or whatever that thing entails and adapt it to something else, retail or whatever. But I do not wish to see that behemoth stand untouched for any second longer. Most of it should go for something much more aesthetically and purpose pleasing. I'm sorry I don't see eye to eye with you.

Taurus, I've opened my mind to what you are saying and can see that point of view. I used to think more like Thunder on those buildings.

But I agree, it's one of the very few things that are unique about OKC and I think we should look hard at adaptive use for at least some of them.

Otherwise, until I see some evidence to the contrary, I would expect whatever replaces it to be quite unremarkable.

I appreciate your sarcasm, Midtowner. But the co-op is not burned out, condemned, or abandoned. It is a place that actually employs people and produces something of value. Of course, if the co-op moves, it may be condemned and abandoned. Or perhaps it will just be torn down like most of downtown Oklahoma City in the 1980s and remain a blank space for the next 25 years. Now that's progress.

I saw a video on that Producer's Co-op on the Oklahoman website about a year ago when they expanded their operations a bit.

Those huge metal structures are seed silos... Just big open spaces where they pile the cotton seeds (and now other types of seeds as well) before they are crushed and turned into oil.

Because they are so big and open, it would be very interesting to see what the creative mind could come up with for adaptive use.

Looking at aerials, the appears to be about ten of these silos of varying size. keeping 2 or 3 of the large ones might be a cool exercise in design.

http://mysite.verizon.net/res17zef/coop.jpg

The Co-Op is better than what would probably replace it....another Randy Hogan suburban style office complex.

Here's the inside of one of those silos... They are obviously filled from the top through the openings in the cupolas that sit on the highest ridge. And they are clear-span inside:

http://mysite.verizon.net/res17zef/coop2.jpg

That's some serious expansion. One question though. Is there enough EFIS stockpiled somewhere to adequately cover the new Lower BT, and Lower BT West?

It doesn't look too ambitious to me. The translucent parts of the expansion probably wouldn't be built, but rather the easements would be obtained via Maps3. I think that the plan looks good. Looks like development sans destruction. I hope it's included on the Maps3 ballot.

You guys are so sure of what future development where the Co-op currently stands will become. You do not know.

Yes. Lower Bricktown was a flop. But our city leaders know that now. We know that. We aren't going to let it happen again. What makes that area south of LB any different than Bricktown proper? It's a chance to redeem that area and according to these plans, this is also a chance to make Lower Bricktown what it was supposed to be. I see infill where it's most crucial. I see that this new canal extension could potentially give room to fix what is so wrong.

If you're so worried of a some **** of a development taking over a nasty looking mill, then you are the ones that need to make sure it's not tore down for nothing. You need to be the ones that are vocal about it's reuse when it is demolished or adapted to a new use.

You guys are so sure of what future development where the Co-op currently stands will become. You do not know.

Yes. Lower Bricktown was a flop. But our city leaders know that now. We know that. We aren't going to let it happen again. What makes that area south of LB any different than Bricktown proper? It's a chance to redeem that area and according to these plans, this is also a chance to make Lower Bricktown what it was supposed to be. I see infill where it's most crucial. I see that this new canal extension could potentially give room to fix what is so wrong.

If you're so worried of a some **** of a development taking over a nasty looking mill, then you are the ones that need to make sure it's not tore down for nothing. You need to be the ones that are vocal about it's reuse when it is demolished or adapted to a new use.


Lower Bricktown was not a flop. Over a decade ago, this area was nothing but abandoned warehouses with homeless people running around. At least there's a reason to go downtown now. Development could of been quicker and better, but at least there is a need for the entertainment district - it's not going away anytime soon.

My beef with the city is the desire for another convention center. I'll support it if there is a serious design in place for people movers.

You have to throw in the old steel fab buildings in East Bricktown before going after the Co-op. Interestingly enough, they did demo a small structure recently off of sheridan, probably more so that it looked like it could collapse soon...

I saw a video on that Producer's Co-op on the Oklahoman website about a year ago when they expanded their operations a bit.

Those huge metal structures are seed silos... Just big open spaces where they pile the cotton seeds (and now other types of seeds as well) before they are crushed and turned into oil.

Because they are so big and open, it would be very interesting to see what the creative mind could come up with for adaptive use.

Looking at aerials, the appears to be about ten of these silos of varying size. keeping 2 or 3 of the large ones might be a cool exercise in design.

http://mysite.verizon.net/res17zef/coop.jpg

I strongly agree with Taurus and Pete both here. Let's take it a bit further and consider how this facility could actually be adapted into the new conference center. The large clean-span buildings are ideal for convention space. The new architecture that would be integrated with the existing buildings would look towards the future of the city as well as celebrating our past. This is a very unique opportunity.

Hmmmm....a new convention center within the co-op buildings? Call it the Co-Op! Actually, that would be a pretty novel concept. I honestly don't think the current co-op buildings will be demolished. They have too much money wrapped up in that facility.

I'm sorry. But the only part of LB that isn't an embarassment to real urban character is the area around the Centennial Plaza. That's it. Way to pinpoint me out when everyone else is calling LB a flop and I'm just repeating them, and the one defending it and saying it can be fixed.

I say forget the canal expansion and put that money towards the downtown area public transportation, which IMO would have a far greater benefit for DT and BT than more canal

It looks like the largest of those silos is 350 x150 feet (the one in the upper right of the aerial I posted)... That's over 50,000 square feet in one big space.

Why not use some of them as part of a new convention complex?? They could be tied together with a modern glass base, similar to the Denver Airport:

http://www.visitingdc.com/images/denver-airport-address.jpg

Less kinks in the canal please! Straight lines! The California portion of the canal looks best between buildings aligned to a grid. Everyone knows it's man made... why make it wind like a river? Do that and we're REALLY trying to rip on San Antonio.

Plus I could bet it a lot cheaper, faster, and simpler to build.

I say forget the canal expansion and put that money towards the downtown area public transportation, which IMO would have a far greater benefit for DT and BT than more canal

Totally agree... first things first.

Could 'they' be thinking it would be easier to pass a new MAPs project if a canal is involved?

convention center
fair ground perks
new canal route or two (to bring in other's moneys)
new bus or three, but hey, they're cng!

nah, I'm just being a jerk .... yeah, that's it.

Canal expansion is not necessary.

Not until we see the existing canal used to it's full potential. No more empty spaces along the canal, no more parking lots along the canal, and no more grassy hills along the canal. There is so much wasted space along the canal as it is, we don't need a longer canal with more empty spaces.

It is nice to see the dream rendering of what the canal could be some day, but where is the hotel and shopping mall that was dreamed about long ago for our existing canal?

A longer canal is not a pressing need for this city. I will be voting NO for canal extension.

Also I will be voting NO for the "central park", not until I see a park nearly ten times the size of the proposed park idea.

Another NO vote for the convetion center, will depend on the location. I don't think it needs to be south of the Ford Cener away from downtown and away from bricktown.

I will vote YES for a new and improved transit system, that I will probably never ride on.

I think that the new MAPS has not been thought out very well at all, and it is being rushed to get on the ballot before the tax will expire.

Regarding their website - I find their quotation of Jeff Speck interesting. Speck is much more qualitative in his support of a (slightly) extended canal. From his report:



Another solution being considered along this axis is the continuation of the Bricktown
canal system west from its current terminus to the Ford Center entrance. This exciting
concept is brilliant in theory, but must be carefully studied to make sure that its reality
can approach the power of its vision. We must remember that the successful parts of the
Canal are those where the waterway is lined by active buildings, not walls. For people to
choose to walk from the Ford Center into Bricktown along this canal, it must be flanked
at its grade by restaurants and housing that give supervision and life to its trajectory.
Given that half of the built canal currently lacks such edges, it is difficult to advocate for
building more of it. That said, an extended canal that reached the Ford Center, were it
properly shaped and lined, would be a tremendous addition to the city.

Specifically, his statement "Given that half of the built canal currently lacks such edges, it is difficult to advocate for building more of it" is extremely important. Why build more when we can't get private business to fill out the existing area? The quote of his they chose to use is about street connections to Bricktown, not the canal...

Hopefully a new canal would force property prices down in BT due to the sudden glut of canal-side real estate. That'd spur some real growth down there.

Cafe, then let's get to the heart of this matter: if there is no canal extension, and if Bricktown loses its interstate frontage, and if the convention center is built south of Ford Center (where the entrance will be a half-mile away from the bulk of Bricktown's restaurants), how is Bricktown not hurt by all this?

The co-op is beautiful. It adds interest to the city, acknowledges the state's agriculture industry, and doesn't look like the rest of the city. The new boathouse row on the river, with its shiny metal buildings, echo the co-op's materials and shapes. I think there is almost no chance that anything that replaces the co-op will be as interesting or beautiful. More likely it will look like the schlock that is lower Bricktown. Does anyone agree with me? Can't anyone else appreciate that old industrial buildings have their own aesthetic beauty and interest?

I agree, but I'd like to see them repurposed for something the general public can use. I'd also like to see some infill in that general area as well, but I agree, it makes our City look less cookie-cutter and like Lower Bricktown.

Also, who is funding this canal extension website? Steve do you know? How come no pressing questions like you did with the MTP?

The website is registered through a proxy. All I can tell you is that it was registered on July 4th. Other than that, all of the owner's information is private.

Metro, it's the Bricktown Association. They revealed themselves on Thursday. Their board is chaired by Avis Scaramucci. The association's director is Jim Cowan. Both have been profiled extensively. Metro, your questions indicate you're not keeping up with what I write and report. Oh wait, you don't subscribe or buy the paper....

Not true, you and I both know I read your articles and blog, and never said I don't buy the paper, I buy it frequently at the stand, and you know I read it online and Iphone. I just don't "subscribe" to getting it at my doorstep. No point of it in this digital age. I still didn't see you interrogate the Bricktown Association/aka Canal Extension proponents like you did the MTP. I see it no differently as they are both "public works" campaigns. Maybe you're not keeping up with your blog. I don't see anywhere you called Canal Extension board out near to the effect as you did MTP. Where are the hardball questions for them. What experience does Jim Cowan or Avis Scaramucci of all people have with canal planning or "public transit" (if you want to call those canal boats public transit)? If there wasn't a DIRECT BENEFIT to them and Bricktown, I can guarantee they wouldn't be doing this campaign.

Metro, I'm pretty much through answering you. I didn't grill MTP. I asked them to identify board members, to give a background on Jeff, its director, and questioned whether Mayor Mick Cornett was endorsing their group since they quoted him (I'll have a column out on MTP next week).
It's laughable to suggest I don't ask hard questions of the Bricktown Association.

Steve, I'm not trying to piss you off but I'm just calling it as I see this one.

Either way, I see nowhere on your blog you calling out BA, Avis Scaramucci, and Jim Cowan out about this Canal Extension, their board, asking for their resumes, etc. Who does their board consist of besides Avis Scaramucci? So is the Canal Extension board the Bricktown Association Board? If so maybe we should ask them why as the proposed extension will affect other portions of downtown, but will directly benefit Bricktown the most.

In all fairness, Jeff Bezdek of MTP is just as well known as Avis and Jim AND he HAS a proven track record of urban planning.

In all fairness, Jeff Bezdek of MTP is just as well known as Avis and Jim AND he HAS a proven track record of urban planning.

Good point.

An entity called the "Bricktown Association," a Domestic not for profit corporation has been in existence since its certificate was filed on 6-22-1990.

What are you saying Mid?

Not much other than that I looked 'em up on the Secretary of State's website. If it's the same group, they've been in existence for nearly 20 years, which I think is significant. The Association is mentioned frequently in Oklahoman articles. They seem to be the goto mouthpiece for all things Bricktown.

Now, as to what sort of clout such a group would have in being able to propose a canal extension which couldn't be accomplished without significant public subsidy is something I can't speak to. They do seem to be a pretty significant player in the area though. I'd take this thing seriously.

Yes, but many of the "players" in Bricktown have changed, even the face of Bricktown has changed (some not for the good, we still have plenty of vacant properties since canal opening). So what does that say about such a long-term organization, that has a 10 year old vacant canal front, some of it in which the dirt piles haven't even moved in the entire 10 years? Jeff Bezdek was questioned far more, has a background in urban planning, and he has been in the game for a while and developed significant projects across the state, including Centennial Plaza in Bricktown, the Kerr McGee Bell Tower on the River. Does that not too speak for itself? He was interrogated far more than the Bricktown Association was, no question.

If he's going to be deciding where $1billion of our money goes, I'm not opposed to the interrogation. The Bricktown Association doesn't directly decide where tax dollars go.

Neither does MTP, that is my point. Try and look at the parallells between MTP and Canal Extension Patrick. They are both private movements for public works enhancements, one got interrogated far more than the other and I was simply asking why the difference. They were both meant to get the dialogue going on their respective subjects, not decide where $1 billion goes.

To clarify something that is being misrepresented: on my blog I noted that MTP was soliciting contributions for its campaign and that is when I asked for names of the group's directors and a background on Jeff.
MTP was a brand new group with no history. The Bricktown Association has been around for 20 years. As far as I know they are not soliciting money from the public for their campaign.

Steve, thanks for providing more information.

In regards to your reporting, you know I appreciate and respect it, I've probably posted more about your stories than anyone on this website. I've provided you leads as well. I don't however recall "time and again" me questioning your motives and ethics. Secondly, even if I did on a regular basis, is that a bad thing? Shouldn't the public hold the media accountable? I mean the media holds the public (and private entities for that matter) accountable. Again, your taking it personally and I wasn't trying to piss you off, but I think it was a valid discussion point. You seem as if your journalism shouldn't ever be called into questioning. Is the public not to form opinions on what is reported in the media?

Platemaker seemed to agree and got what I was saying.

Are there any cost estimates for this? Is it broken down into phases and different implementation timelines? What would go in MAPS 3?

Are there any cost estimates for this? Is it broken down into phases and different implementation timelines? What would go in MAPS 3?

According to the pics it looks at least twice the length as the existing canal. Not to mention, this time around there is actually stuff happening downtown that can conflict with construction raising the price tag. The existing canal cost $23.1 million... so I'm guessing $50-75 million.

The four mile Portland street car cost $77 million... ;)

Platemaker, the map represents a master plan, just as MTP is proposing a master plan. The Bricktown Association is not seeking to do everything shown at once. A person involved with effort is saying an initial extension would likely start at around $10 million.

Has there been any talk about this maybe being a catalyst for further development in the older parts of Bricktown?

It would seem that if the market was flooded by newer and already renovated properties that the older properties couldn't maintain the sorts of rents they have historically maintained.

Metro. Thanks for your tireless support of me and MTP effort. Steve and I have reconciled our mis-understanding and I think that the "perceived grilling" was a healthy process to properly vet who and what the transit project is. With that said, I have conducted a thorough interview with Steve and I think we are both satisfied with the answers that have boded out of a more positive and open dialogue.

Regarding the canal- I think that some extensions as part of a MAPS 3 initiative are definitely worthy of consideration. Both the streetcar and parts of what have been discussed as a canal extension could very well provide the connectivity and walkability that people so greatly crave downtown. I would say that obviously there is a limited pie to divide so we must be judicious with this tax money to benefit our citizenry as resolutely as possible.

With regard to the canal, I would say that any extension that warrants the greatest consideration is crossing under the great divide that is EK Gaylord. At Urban Neighbors, the canal extension that we were asked to endorse specifically centered around the need to cross under this busy street and directly connect the convention district. I would assume that the other pieces of that pie are phased extensions (as Steve points out) part of a grand master plan to get people thinking. Hopefully Jim Cowan or someone will give greater clarification as to what are "desired phases" and how much they cost.- Jeff Bezdek

I'd like to know what that $10 million initial extension would be. Where would it go?

With regard to the canal, I would say that any extension that warrants the greatest consideration is crossing under the great divide that is EK Gaylord. At Urban Neighbors, the canal extension that we were asked to endorse specifically centered around the need to cross under this busy street and directly connect the convention district.

This is exactly were it needs to start.

I fixed their map for them:

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/7734/conceptualupdate.jpg