This time it's Phoenix!

When are OKC leaders going to wake up? Sure, we don't need a light rail system now, but now is the time to start planning one. Sure, we don't have the problems Phoenix has, but we may have in about 10-20 years. For a project of this magnitude, we need to start looking at it now. To save money, we could at least create a start up line from Crossroads to downtown, that would serve Norman and Moore.

Camilla Strongin in this article sounds a lot like Ernest Istook and many of our city leaders.....saying population isn't dense enough and the city should build more freeways. Folks, gasoline isn't getting any cheaper. It will only get more expensive. We need to make our mass transit system a system for everyone (creative class included), not just the poorer classes.

We're too automobile dependent in this city.


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"Arizona Light Rail System Hailed

Tue Jan 25, 4:44 AM ET U.S. National - AP


By ANANDA SHOREY, Associated Press Writer

PHOENIX - Saying the nation's sixth-largest city was "strangling on its congestion," the country's top transit official signed an agreement to free $587 million in federal money to help sprawling Phoenix build a light rail system.


For Phoenix to "not plan ahead on something that is not focused on the automobile would be foolhardy," Federal Transit Administrator Jennifer Dorn said after signing the agreement Monday with the mayors of Phoenix, Tempe, Mesa and Glendale.

Street construction on a segment of track near the border of Tempe and Phoenix is set to begin by the end of February. A train will run on about a mile of test track by spring 2006.

A starter segment initially set to open at the end of 2006 is now scheduled to open in December 2008.

When that happens, transportation officials say congestion will be greatly eased on the freeways that serve about 3 million residents in one of the nation's fastest-growing cities.

Cars line up for blocks at some freeway onramps during peak hours, and it can easily take more than an hour for motorists to get to the outskirts from downtown during rush hour. With light rail, it will take about 20 minutes to get from downtown to Tempe and about the same time to get to north Phoenix. It will take 55 minutes to get from one end of the initial 20-mile arterial route to the other, including stops.

Besides easing traffic problems, Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon said light rail will create 1,600 full-time jobs. Property values surrounding the track will increase and the air will be cleaner, he added.

Gordon said light rail will enliven the downtown area, where streets typically empty after businesses close, forcing residents to drive to the suburbs for dining and entertainment.

Not everyone agrees, though. Project opponent Camilla Strongin said transportation money would be better spent on freeways since light rail is expensive, and construction will clog surface streets even more.

"The city is not designed with a dense-population core that would be well served by a light rail system," Strongin said.

In 2000, Phoenix passed a 0.4 percent sales tax for a transit plan that included light rail. The initial 20-mile arterial route will cost $1.3 billion, about half of which comes from the federal government. "

After I-40 is moved, then we can talk :D

I wouldn't be 100% opposed to it if they could do some kind of honest study that shows that there would be a future need it oil hit x price.

I sure would hate to build such a system and find later that no one used it because there weren't enough stops, the bus line was more effective at getting someone from A to B, etc. Just one study proving that light rail is something that should be even remotely close to one of our greater priorities. I ain't picky!

So far, we have nothing. We have a $500,000 study that said that the rubber tire system would give us a much greater value. I see plenty of arguments against, but the only arguments for are that in the future it MIGHT be needed, or it's just something cool that we need.

I think that's a fair assessment!

ACOG could consider light rail studies now....I'm sure they could probably get financing via a federal grant. That way we'd have something to discuss after I-40 is re-located.

I think that's a fair assessment!

ACOG could consider light rail studies now....I'm sure they could probably get financing via a federal grant. That way we'd have something to discuss after I-40 is re-located.

Actually, I think OKC and the state in general need to cool it on financing projects. The biggest reason we don't have money to fix roads today is because we have to make the payments on projects that happened so long ago that they've fallen into disrepair.

This time it's Phoenix!

When are OKC leaders going to wake up? Sure, we don't need a light rail system now, but now is the time to start planning one. Sure, we don't have the problems Phoenix has, but we may have in about 10-20 years. For a project of this magnitude, we need to start looking at it now. To save money, we could at least create a start up line from Crossroads to downtown, that would serve Norman and Moore.

People in Moore and Norman don't work downtown. Most of these suburbanites work at Tinker, well... mostly people that live in Moore. Some people in Norman actually do commute to downtown, but there are other places for them to work as well. They can work on Campus, and a lot of them work on some of the major employers along Ann brandon Blvd (Hiatchi, UPS, Saxon, etc, etc)

I think light rail would be great between Oklahoma City and Tulsa at the present time. Light rail for the Oklahoma City area is just not feasible until the popoulation grows to at least 3 million.

Oklahoma needs to strongly support mass transit and develop a better way to fund it. The best way I would suggest is to bring back safety inspections and charge $25 for the inspection. The money could be broke down to pay the inspection garage, roads and mass transit.

Like it or not vehicle inspections will return to Oklahoma. I think we need to do it before we have a tree hugging president and a liberal run congress that will force the EPA to mandate inspections in Oklahoma. Then Oklahoma drivers will be paying for a $30-60 smog check plus the state inspection fee.

I think light rail would be great between Oklahoma City and Tulsa at the present time. Light rail for the Oklahoma City area is just not feasible until the popoulation grows to at least 3 million.Excuse me! Between Tulsa and OKC? Ha! Who will use it? That's proposterous. Also, Phoenix does not have 3 million people either.


Like it or not vehicle inspections will return to Oklahoma. I think we need to do it before we have a tree hugging president and a liberal run congress that will force the EPA to mandate inspections in Oklahoma. Then Oklahoma drivers will be paying for a $30-60 smog check plus the state inspection fee.Oklahoma is not going to enforce this on their own behalf. Now, some government officials just may realize it is a prime time to leviate the deficit here. Some may not like the idea of disguising a tax as inspections fees though. I would recommend that they consider just... raising the taxes, a little bit. Just enough to raise money for a single line, no longer than 3 miles. Then, once the city collects ticket prices from this, expand the system. This also ensures we don't waste money on something we THOUGHT was a good idea. I just don't see how rail between Tulsa and OKC is a good idea under any circumstances, even if both Tulsa and OKC had over five million residents.

Sooner&RiceGrad:

No rail system is profitable that I've heard of -- at least there is no way in hell one would be profitable here in OKC. To start with the most correctable problem (but also one of the worst potential offenders), the rail line would probably be run by COTPA. COTPA couldn't manage its way out of a paper bag. Can you believe that the Santa Fe Parking Garage as old as it is has never been in the black?? How do you lose money on a parking garage!?

Rail lines as a rule around the country are HEAVILY subsidized by the municipality that they serve, or county, or whatever entity -- I've cited facts and figures in another thread which is now closed and I don't care to do so again.

As for the OKC-Tulsa rail line, I concur. The Turner Turnpike costs what... $6.00 two ways? Maybe $10.00 for gas? At the end of the line, I have the convenience of my own transportation? How is a rail line going to compete with that? What.. are they going to charge less than $20.00 round trip and not need HEAVY subsidies? If you need evidence of how silly an idea this is, take one look at the Amtrack line that runs between OKC and Dallas -- an abject failure.

The time to have decided on a light-rail system was before the I-40 realignment was selected: the new I-40, while it preserves Union Station intact, will trash most of the rail lines nearby, meaning there would have to be a new rail station built near downtown and rail constructed to reach it, increasing the price well beyond what anyone is likely to be willing to pay.

Phoenix has 1.4 million people; its five biggest suburbs (Mesa, Glendale, Scottsdale, Chandler, Tempe) have 1.2 million among them. Three million for the metro area doesn't sound at all out of line.

I may be complaing about a grain of salt, but is actually 2.6 million people.

The time to have decided on a light-rail system was before the I-40 realignment was selected: the new I-40, while it preserves Union Station intact, will trash most of the rail lines nearby, meaning there would have to be a new rail station built near downtown and rail constructed to reach it, increasing the price well beyond what anyone is likely to be willing to pay.

Phoenix has 1.4 million people; its five biggest suburbs (Mesa, Glendale, Scottsdale, Chandler, Tempe) have 1.2 million among them. Three million for the metro area doesn't sound at all out of line.

Is your name by any chance Tom Elmore with North American Transportation Institute? lol! He is very much against the new realignment of I-40 for the very reason you are. In a sense, he's absolutely correct. The Union Station rail yard is worth millions.

For more info., visit one of his sites: http://www.oklahomacityrail.org/ (http://www.oklahomacityrail.org/)

This is a pretty interesting trasncript of a convrsation between Tom Elmore and Cara Rice......he references Ernest Istook:

"Tom Elmore: Well, I'll tell you why it's important - because you may recall back in 1996 we tried to get a light rail circulator in downtown Oklahoma City off the ground. It was to be built entirely in Frank Lucas' congressional district. Congressman Lucas was for it. The senators were for it. Mayor Norick was for it. Everybody was for it - everybody had worked very hard. And that year we only wanted back 13 million of the roughly 30 million we send in every year to the Federal Transit Trust Fund - for use here in Oklahoma City. 13 million in one year. Something stopped that - and that something is a fellow named Ernest Istook who stepped over into the business of Frank Lucas' people, who never got an opportunity to vote for him or against him - and wrote a very nasty letter to the house transportation subcommittee chairman from House Appropriations, a guy named Frank Wolf - BLASTING and impugning the motives and the integrity and the veracity of the OKC planners who had drawn this thing up. "They say the want the money for this - but they really want it for something else" - you know, you never can trust those people in Oklahoma, you know how we are down here.

Cara Rice: (Laughs) - uh huh...

Tom Elmore: Anyway, suffice it to say that the money went away. The project went away. Oddly, however, Salt Lake City, Utah came up with a 35 million dollar federal fund for new start for transit. Now, I want you to understand, I've got nothing against Salt Lake. I've spent a lot of time there, I know it very well, and I'll tell you that if there's a city in the West that really needed to get a start on some highway alternative transportation, it certainly was Salt Lake - because they've got a day to day air quality problem. The city is in a basin there with the salt lake and the air quality is so bad, I've been out there many days when the commercial radio stations were saying, "please don't come outside if you don't have to..."

I don't begrudge them that system at all. The problem I have is Ernest Istook --- well, as you may know, Congressman Istook also happens to be a Mormon bishop. And, many people have told me over the years that they've seen him out there a LOT. Well...

Here's more of the transcript if you want to read it: http://www.oklahomacityrail.org/cararicetranscript.htm (http://www.oklahomacityrail.org/cararicetranscript.htm)

Actually

2000 US Census

Phoenix MSA 3,251,876 (no cmsa) growth 45.3% 90-00


For reference

OKC CMSA 1,160,942 growth 12.7% 90-00
Tulsa CMSA 908,528 growth 12.3% 90-00

OKC is actually closer to 1.25 million.

Istook saying that the money would probably have been used for something else may very well have been right. We do sort of have a history of that in these parts.

wheres the figures backing up okc at 1.25 million

Emporis.

Uh, no, I'm not Tom Elmore, but I have read some of his pieces on rail in this area.

Verifying the Oklahoma City metropolitan statistical area population from the U.S. Census Bureau, population estimates as of 2003....

Oklahoma City 7 County MSA- 1,132,682
Oklahoma City 8 County CMSA- 1,200,030

Hope this helps!

The 8 county includes Stillwater, right? That sounds good, even though it is a malicious lie from a resident standpoint. I like Stillwater, so that's fine w/ me. I wish El Reno wasn't so close to us though... but they are doing stuff to clean themselves up. That's good.

Stillwater is in the "metro"? Heh... May as well include Tulsa.

They'd love that over at tulsanow, eh? Imagine: "OKC Metro area: norman, edmond, midwest city, tulsa..." :D

Stop. Your bringin' down the man (Tulsa)!

No, Sooner&RiceGrad. Stillwater is not included in the Oklahoma City CMSA. In 2004, the United States Board of Budget and Management reconfigured the Oklahoma City metropolitan statistical area. Before last year, the Oklahoma City MSA included six counties... Canadian, Cleveland, Logan, McClain, Oklahoma and Pottawatomie.

After the reconfiguration, the Oklahoma City MSA lost one county but gained two. Pottawatomie County was dropped from the MSA, but was added to the CMSA. Lincoln and Grady Counties were added to the MSA. Payne County, which includes Stillwater, is not part of any CMSA nor is it considered a micropolitan area.

On another note, the Oklahoma City MSA touches borders with the Tulsa MSA, at the Creek and Lincoln County lines. God help the people of Tulsa!!!

i still havent found or seen any figures backing up okc at 1.25 million

Does it matter? Wikipedia... Emporis... and so on. It doesn't mean anything though.

I would say Lincoln County definately sounds to the OKC beat... but Grady?

You can think of an MSA as an area where people shop, work, and live. If people living 20 miles away from a city centre venture to the city limits often enough (not sure what the figure is) to shop or work OR if they must come to the central city for urban services, then it is usually considered MSA. CSA is the surrounding area from the MSA where people venture into the central city less often but still do for essential goods and services.

The size of OKCs MSA and CSA does not surprise me at all. You all think of Cincinnatti and Seattle as big cities - but in fact, it is their CSAs that make them big. Cincin has less than 300k people in the central city but their MSA includes southern OH and Northern KY. Their CSA touches Louisville MSA! Some would even argue that Louisville should be included into Cincin CSA because healthy pop ventures to cincin for goods and services.

Ditto that for Seattle, which is 560k central city and 1.7 mil MSA (which are cities that more or less tough Seattle (just like OKCs MSA). Well, Tacoma also has a MSA (which is 1.2 mil) - BUT for high-end essential services nearly everyone in the Puget Sound travels to Seattle (or Vancouver BC). So, Seattle's CSA is nearly 4 million people! and includes an area the size of OKC to Tulsa (NO KIDDING!!!). Do people in Tacoma really care about Seattle, NO but for hi end shopping or major league sports, well you have to go to Seattle or Vancouver, but Seattle is much closer. So, the Tacoma MSA is part of the Seattle-Tacoma-Bremerton CSA.

I sincerely doubt that Tulsa MSA would ever join into the OKC CMSA. Tulsa has enough essential services to keep their MSA coming there. Aside from Transient visitor or state commerce (or the recent concerts, entertainment, and sports) most Tulsans do not have to come to OKC, and vice versa.

But, I bet you that Stillwater goes to OKC quite often! As does Enid, Lawton, and most every other city in the original 405 area code. That is why OKC got a CMSA! Because an expanded population relied heavily on OKC than just the MSA.

Now, why was Pot county dropped from OKC MSA and moved to the CMSA? I have no idea. Technically, the OKC limits tough Pot County, which is indemnific (did I spell that right) of a MSA. And yes, Grady County (Guthrie) is part of OKC CMSA. Actually, it should be part of OKCs MSA, because there is almost NOTHING in Guthrie so they have to come down the 30 miles or so to OKC and Edmond for shopping, services, and certainly Entertainment!

Sorry for the long message, but I wanted to chime in here because I think there was beginning to be doubts about how important OKC is to the state. It is very similar in nature that Seattle is to my state - Washington. Or Portland to Oregon, or Denver to Colorado.

Speaking of Denver, their CMSA goes alltheway to Wyoming, even tho Bolder has a MSA, Ft Collins has an MSA, CheyenneWY has an MSA (albeit very small); Denver CMSA includes all of them (except Cheyenne officially but really, everyone from Cheyenne goes down to Denver for everything, Cheyenne is like Guthrie but it is the state's capital and largest city).
They cut Denver CMSA off at Colorado Springs (I forget the county). That is some 200 miles N-S! We wont even talk about E-W (which Western KS and the whole state of CO and UT come to Denver as it is the ONLY Big city for 600 miles [then you run into OKC by the way]!).

I think if OKC had better "organized commuter" situation you would have light rail. Unfortunately for OKC, everything is spread out - factories in western and southern, offices downtown and nw, and everything inbetween everywhere else.

Downtown OKC and the capital/health sciences centra are the only centralized commutes (besides Tinker but most Tinker people live nearby) in OKC but even then there are a plethora of freeways to get you there.

Right now, I think some 40,000 people work in Downtown OKC. Double that number with at least half commuting into downtown (meaning all of the current number commuting in from say Edmond), then OKC would be higher on the list for mass transit. This is what many call "critical mass."

Depending upon how you look at it, this is sad for OKC by its design (or good in that OKC never really has traffic problems except I-44 in western). And to tell you the truth, the outer loop freeway/turnpike really does not help OKCs chances for rapid mass transit. Trucks can bypass the central city, leaving those inner freeways for vehicles.

I wish Seattle was designed like this, but unfortunately for us we only have 1 N-S interstate for our whole region!!! and 1 E-W interstate! Seattle therefore is always congested, given the CMSA I told you about in the earlier post (stretching some 100 miles N-S). One interstate for 3.5 million people stretching some 100 miles N-S. Well, that is why Seattle gets a lot for transit for busses and commuter rail (although we currently dont have rapid mass transit either, but it is being built, sort of).

OKC has how many freeways? Freeways is hurting OKC just like it did LA. Look how big LA had to get before it got mass rapid transit. I think the LA area was at least 8 million people before they got their first light rail system.

Sometimes, freeways hurt trains!!! On another note tho, you have to take care of the freeways in the central city, otherwise commerce suffers. They should replace the I-40 downtown bridge but I wish they would move the alignment north a block near Union Station to preserve the rail yard. Why do they need the yard for the freeway? the State owns the land all around it, they can push the freeway north a bit in that area!

But still, it should be replaced; otherwise, look for OKC to begin showing up on the radar for a rapid system for downtown sooner than you think! Maybe that is a good strategy after all?

Funny story about the Phoenix system: Some may believe that "nobody was watching" what Ernest Istook pulled here in 1996 when he threw over his "fellow Republicans," Frank Lucas, Jim Inhofe, Don Nickles and Ron Norick to shoot down the $13 million (of our own money) that we wanted back for the MAPS I downtown trolley circulator.

However -- somebody obviously "was watching."

Recall that the Omnibus appropriations bill from which the OKC federal match was pulled included $35 million in startup funds for the Salt Lake LRT system. The starter line was ready and served well during the 2002 Winter Olympics.

Recall, as well, that, the purchase price of each gallon of fuel for public road use anywhere in the nation includes 2.86 cents federal tax for the Federal Transit Trust Fund. Oklahoma had sent in something over $30 million that year -- retrieving "the norm" -- less than $10 million. (Currently the "contribution" reportedly exceeds $70 million, annually.)

Fast forward to September, 2004. Arizona Governor Janet Napolitano wanted light rail down to Tempe -- but the "Istook wannabes" in her state legislature, "Mormon, conservative Republicans...," as they, themselves would style it -- were resisting. So, Governor Napolitano amazed all -- including reporter Le Templar with the Salt Lake Trib -- by making a surprise "pilgrimage to Salt Lake" to visit the 92 year old president of the LDS Church, Gordon B. Hinckley.

For her trouble, Gov. Napolitano -- who apparently is not a Mormon -- was roundly derided and pilloried in the "conservative press."

However -- in December, 2004, the Governor's effort apparently paid off, as US House Transportation Subcommittee Chair Istook, his Senate counterpart Richard Shelby in tow, appeared in Phoenix with, as I recall, the committment of $587 million for the light rail project....which had been extended down to Mesa, where it reportedly circles the 80-year-old Mormon regional temple.

Think about it.

In Oklahoma, Istook "threw over" his fellow Republicans to take away transit money they (sort of) "wanted." In Arizona, he threw over his fellow Republicans by giving them a half billion in federal transit aid they didn't want.

Would you say Governor Napolitano's strategy "worked," or not?

Who told Istook to "thow his buddies over?"

By the way -- among the last things Istook achieved for Utah before being virtually run out of the chairmanship on "a rail" -- was funding for a new, fast commuter rail line providing oil-crisis-proof-workforce-mobility to Tinker's competitor, Hill AFB, the "third ALC," from Salt Lake / Provo to the south and Ogden to the north.

How does the old Oklahoma City, Ada and Atoka Railway line from the north side of Tinker through the neighborhoods of Midwest City link to the rest of the region's railways?

Via OKC Union Station -- which links Tinker to Altus AFB, Ft. Sill, and Vance AFB.

Who influenced most of the money to fund ODOT's determination to destroy Union Station's yard, and with it all that longstanding connectivity?

Ernest J. Istook.

Will Istook's "strategy" "work out" -- or will we save our state's transportation and economic futures by frustrating it?

As said previously -- "Think about it."

TOM ELMORE

T Elmore-

your riddle perplexes me.

are you saying that Salt Lake City has light rail because of E. Istook?

are you saying that, if only OKC had had the winter olympics, a politician from arizona would have come to Oklahoma to pander for transport projects from a local congressional representative, the result being a light rail project in OKC?

I hope things work out, nonetheless, the current public transit system is horrible, I blame COTPA!

cheers!

Istook sure didn't help his own state much with federal dollars for transporation, that is for sure. Heck, he was chair of the transporation committee! I sure would like to see him put in the spotlight again. Oh BTW, we still don't have all the funds for the new I-40 relocation.