View Full Version : OKC's rampant problems: blight, congestion, lack of civic planning, etc, etc, etc



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mireaux
06-17-2009, 05:07 PM
Its occured to me that in recent times that some areas of the greater OKC area seemed obviously blighted, some have been that way for many years, others are trending that way, and some areas are having efforts at preventing blight from occuring.

on the contrast, other areas are being developed aggressively from flat farmland, or are being gentrified, or torn down and rebuilt anew.

these "pockets of blighted areas" contrasted with the affluent areas make the overall OKC map look somewhat like a subdued checkerboard.

I find the OKC area unique compared to other major metropolitan areas of similiar populations. For starters, our greater metropolitan area is quite expansive and spread out. everybody wants their own stretch of land, and doesnt want to reside too too close to anyone else.

Not only is the highway infrastructure dated, but due to recent growth, its also inadequate for the amount of traffic it carries, and moreover the real issue is that there simply isnt enough highway route to effectively get anyone from point A to point B along the highways without having to..at some point..go needlessly a few miles out of your way to arrive at your destination.

I-240 westbound from I-35, as it connects to I-40 at the amarillo junction and proceeds northbound becoming I-44 is regarded as "OKC's west loop"

currently, there is no east loop..although a few years ago there was efforts to build such. The east loop would have passed along the eastern sides of MWC, Choctaw, Jones, etc...but it drew much protest from residents in these areas, and since has been thrown off the drawing board.

I guess eminent domain doesnt really work in all circumstances.

so because everyone wants their share of tranquility at their residence/town, and yet wants some sort of convienence of a big city,..we commute long distances to work along the few highways that exist that are insufficient for the traffic they carry.

neighborhoods are spread out, shopping centers are spread out...everything is spread out...nothing is nestled together. throughout the greater oklahoma city area there are wide patches of unused farmland that needlessly seperate residents and business from having the benefit of a well organized, and efficient metropolitan area..complete with well planned transporation, commerce, jobs and everything in between within its inlay. compare this to most other cities..it rarely exists elsewhere.

another real issue is that there is just one solitary highway that connects the state's largest city with the state's third largest city: oklahoma city and norman. whats worse is that the latter is growing at a fast rate, and no efforts are in place to build an alternate highway to connect the two cities together to alleviate the congestion on I-35.

why did OKC feel the need to spend money to lure Bass Pro here in an attempt to draw other businesses here? did they really think other corporations were really going to relocate here just cause a major outdoor supply store is located here? what kind of logic is that? whats worse, theres no hiding the hideous patchworked highway that is the I-40 crosstown that Bass Pro is located right next to.

Why does our city feel the need to bribe businesses to come here, when other major cities simply take a back seat, improve their city on their own accord, and soon enough corporations begin to notice the benefits on their own merit.

If you reside in the Mid-Del area and are wanting to commute to Warr Acres, or Bethany,..there really isnt a direct route that will take you there. No highway exists that cuts diagonally across the city. You either take I-40 or I-240, over to I-44,..and more than likely you end up hitting about 15 different traffic lights along the dreaded Northworst Expressway.

Why cant a new highway be built? Why cant more highways be built that better serve both residents and those traveling to, and/or doing business in our city.

If theres one thing any prospective business looks at before deciding where to locate, its definitely highway infrastructure, and OKC's is heavily deteriorated. Take a drive along northbound Sunnylane in Del City just north of 15th street and notice the large amount of accumulated rust spots on the I-40 overpass....really pretty, right?

Another thing that doesnt make sense is why there are various skyscapers located along the NW Expressway..Valliance Bank, and pretty much every other tall structure from Penn all the way out to Council Road...shouldnt those tall buildings all be located downtown, to help better the overall prominence of Oklahoma City's financial strength? (or at least present a faux facade of such)

No troubles, from the looks of things, the new Devon Tower should rectify that issue.

There seems to exist a lacked effort in building new buildings in Oklahoma City..its a rarity of sorts. It seems on the whole that that the majority of most buildings in the city were built somewhere between 1955 and 1980, and after that, construction was far and few between. I guess that can be attributed to the oil bust of 1983. But Oklahoma cant rely on oil and agriculture forever as its chief economic structure.

Its seems that the majority of native Oklahomans who attain college degrees move out of state to pursue careers, and that those who hold college degrees and live and work in Oklahoma City are from other places other than Oklahoma City...as if they had no idea what to expect before moving here, and feel they were cheated in the end.

Why does other major cities have a lot more commerce compared to Oklahoma City. Why does Dallas have several malls (22 to be exact, and most of them are doing fairly good business showing no signs of weakening), but yet the greater Oklahoma City area has about 7 malls (Quail, Penn, Crossroads, Northpark, Heritage Park, Sooner, Shawnee) and about half of them are suffering in revenue.

Why? whats the difference? If Dallas/Ft Worth has a metropolitan populous of close to 6 million people and can support 22 malls...why cant Oklahoma City with close to 1 million populous in its greater vicinity simply support a mere 7 malls?

What can Oklahoma City learn from other major cities to improve its financial record? to improve its transportation system? to reduce crime and drug trafficking? to better its schools? to lure other businesses here to relocate?

Even if the city should improve itself over time, could it be possible that we may someday serve as a shining example for some other troubled cities to learn from us?

raspberryswirl
09-03-2009, 08:24 PM
I feel the same way. I can't wait to get out....

mireaux
09-29-2009, 10:47 PM
I feel the same way. I can't wait to get out....

whats stopping you?

hoya
09-29-2009, 11:44 PM
Our highways are far from crowded. I can go from one end of the city to the other at rush hour less time than it took me to go 10 miles at 11:00 at night in Washington DC. We don't need more highways.

Dallas can support more malls because they have more people. 22 malls with 6 million people is 3.5 malls per million people. We have 7 malls per million, according to your numbers, so if half of them are failing, then we're doing just as we should, compared to Dallas.

mireaux
09-30-2009, 12:55 AM
Our highways are far from crowded. I can go from one end of the city to the other at rush hour less time than it took me to go 10 miles at 11:00 at night in Washington DC. We don't need more highways.

Dallas can support more malls because they have more people. 22 malls with 6 million people is 3.5 malls per million people. We have 7 malls per million, according to your numbers, so if half of them are failing, then we're doing just as we should, compared to Dallas.


the highways in okc are less congested, however they arent as efficient as they should be. it requires a driver to drive needlessly out of their way to go to and from many A to B destinations. A prime example would be if you wanted to travel from say 63rd & Independence Ave to Rockwall and 50th. The logical route would be N.W Expressway, but ever count how many stoplights youd have to stop at? Those stoplights become even more annoying at rush hour.

If you wanted to avoid stoplights along N.W Expressway, you could travel south along I-44 and take I-40 westbound till you reach the KilPatrick and loop around exiting off of Hwy 3/NW Expressway. That would be the only route I could fathom to get someone there with the fewest stoplights encountered. You see how silly that is?, but its a daily reality unless you dont mind stoplight after endless stoplight on the expressway. There are other examples of highway route ineffeciencies in Okc, this was just one.

It may be worthy to also note that the N.W. Expressway contains the most dangerous intersection in the entire state of Oklahoma. This intersection is located at the junction of Nw expressway and I-44 just to the immediate southeast of Penn Square Mall. Its so awful that there are concrete barracades to direct traffic coming off of I-44 onto the westbound expressway to funnel it into a single lane.

Another burning question is why there is only one solitary highway route that links Oklahoma's most populated city to its third most populated city? Taking I-35 south bound from I-240 at evening rush hour to Moore-Norman is a total headache. Other cities would have already built an alternate highway to parallel the route to alleviate the congestion, or widen the exisiting route.

It may be true that other cities have more traffic on their highways, but at least they offer more highways to choose from and the highways are laid out in more direct paths that will get you there in less comparitive time and fuel expense.

what good are less congested highways if the routes arent as effective for commuting?

btw,I found humor that when making highway comparisons you chose to compare okc to dc and not dallas as dfw has one of the best highway systems for commuting in the us.

PennyQuilts
09-30-2009, 04:54 AM
OMG. Please go to my area on the east coast to get some perspective. We literally plan our day around traffic to even run as simple an errand as a visit to the home improvement store, library or grocery store. It controls the rhythm of our lives. OKC has some areas that aren't as developed and some are downright run down - won't diagree with you there - but OMG. You can get just about anywhere at anytime in thirty minutes. In many areas, in cities on the east coast, thirty minutes won't get you through the first four intersections. I've sworn I would never, given a choice, live in an area filled with rivers that have few alternative routes. And hilly/older cities are like a cow path. The things that you complain about in OKC leave me with my mouth agape. Lots of things to complain about but overall, traffic isn't one of them. For a city that size - or half that size - it is a marvel.

As for your question as to why there are the traffic problems their are - in a word - money . Have you any earthly idea the cost to add the things you are discussing? It doesn't grow on trees, for sure. You can't just willy nilly draw new roads on the map the way we'd like. Again, check out an "old" city or one with rivers before you complain about lack of access. There are a lot of things to find to complain about but this nitpicking of lack of access truly leaves me astonished. If you lived in a fancy city back east, you'd understand.

metro
09-30-2009, 08:42 AM
No kidding. This thread is dumb. If you think OKC has problems, visit somewhere else or move to a small town so you don't have to deal with it.

OKCMallen
09-30-2009, 08:47 AM
Lubbock has a loop around the city. I guess we're in catch-up mode to them?

zrfdude
09-30-2009, 09:39 AM
This one should be thrown in with the 'No Parking Downtown" threads.

JohnDenver
09-30-2009, 10:01 AM
Its occured to me that in recent times that some areas of the greater OKC area seemed obviously blighted, some have been that way for many years, others are trending that way, and some areas are having efforts at preventing blight from occuring.

on the contrast, other areas are being developed aggressively from flat farmland, or are being gentrified, or torn down and rebuilt anew.

these "pockets of blighted areas" contrasted with the affluent areas make the overall OKC map look somewhat like a subdued checkerboard.



Welcome to the way of life in almost all cities . Dallas's most prestigious development is surrounded by the hood (Highland Park). Dallas's oldest area (Oak Cliff) that suffered the most white flight, has checked board patterns as well. Steven's Park is next to the hood. The same for Houston. The same for Denver.



I find the OKC area unique compared to other major metropolitan areas of similiar populations. For starters, our greater metropolitan area is quite expansive and spread out. everybody wants their own stretch of land, and doesnt want to reside too too close to anyone else.


Only if you are comparing to Manhattan or Chicago. Otherwise, most *newer* metropolitan areas want their space too. Thus, the urban sprawl. OKC isn't that unique.



I guess eminent domain doesnt really work in all circumstances.


I don't really believe you want to live in a state where the government can take your land without real cause, for the "betterment" of the population as a whole. That doesn't seem like it fits within the OK charter. I know the all the new Toll roads in DFW had lengthy and expensive legal battles to take people's lands for a fraction of their real "value." It was a mess and divided the city.



so because everyone wants their share of tranquility at their residence/town, and yet wants some sort of convienence of a big city,..we commute long distances to work along the few highways that exist that are insufficient for the traffic they carry.


Man. I am new to this fair burg... but the traffic is a BREEZE. Rush hour in OKC is really that.. AN HOUR! Certainly the roads need some help, and I see the construction going on. Yet I don't see the major deficiency that you are griping about.



neighborhoods are spread out, shopping centers are spread out...everything is spread out.... transporation, commerce, jobs and everything in between within its inlay. compare this to most other cities..it rarely exists elsewhere.


Get out a bit. This is the norm for major US cities.



Why does our city feel the need to bribe businesses to come here, when other major cities simply take a back seat, improve their city on their own accord, and soon enough corporations begin to notice the benefits on their own merit.


Again. Look at how other cities "lure" businesses. They all offer tax breaks and incentives. ALL of them. There wasn't a month that went by that Dallas wasn't offering tax breaks and land leases to companies to relocate. Dallas has a ton of headquarters and tons of jobs. That is why you see the college educated move there. It isn't by happenstance. It is by design and work.



There seems to exist a lacked effort in building new buildings in Oklahoma City..its a rarity of sorts. It seems on the whole that that the majority of most buildings in the city were built somewhere between 1955 and 1980, and after that, construction was far and few between. I guess that can be attributed to the oil bust of 1983. But Oklahoma cant rely on oil and agriculture forever as its chief economic structure.


I am new to the city. When my family and friends come to visit, they *LOVE* how OKC hasn't torn down the old buildings. Instead there is emphasis to reuse, not rebuild. What we have now is a mish mash of mid century buildings next to semi-new buildings.. and I think it is great. It can be the city's strength.



Its seems that the majority of native Oklahomans who attain college degrees move out of state to pursue careers, and that those who hold college degrees and live and work in Oklahoma City are from other places other than Oklahoma City...as if they had no idea what to expect before moving here, and feel they were cheated in the end.


True. The population on a whole here in OKC is pretty under-educated. This is not a judgment, just the way it is. The workforce is entirely different here that where I am lived previously. When I go to the mall, there are middle aged people working retail jobs (as a career), where other cities these are all teenager jobs. Same for the food industry.

I think there is a lack of higher education *in* OKC. The sole focus and lust on OU appears to pull away from other schools from growing and better serving the public in OKC.

Large companies do not locate where there isn't a highly educated workforce pool. There are very few science based jobs here, this isn't just a coincidence. Very few telecomm, software, electrical engineering, etc. Those companies will place a call center here, but don't confuse that for the types of jobs that those companies 'value'.



Malls... Why? whats the difference? If Dallas/Ft Worth has a metropolitan populous of close to 6 million people and can support 22 malls...why cant Oklahoma City with close to 1 million populous in its greater vicinity simply support a mere 7 malls?


Your math doesn't compute. Per capita we have more malls than DFW. Now, you can complain about the quality of these malls, maybe that is where you are going with that.



What can Oklahoma City learn from other major cities to improve its financial record? to improve its transportation system? to reduce crime and drug trafficking? to better its schools? to lure other businesses here to relocate?


Education. Valued work force.



Even if the city should improve itself over time, could it be possible that we may someday serve as a shining example for some other troubled cities to learn from us?

It seems like OKC is doing a pretty decent job of building. I think we need to have more tax breaks and incentives to lure tech jobs to OKC. Keep some of our college grads local and spend their money here.

PennyQuilts
09-30-2009, 10:34 AM
OKC has been touted, repeatedly, as a going concern by many publications. I've been gone for nine years and it is amazing how much has happened just since I left. Perhaps people living here just don't see it.

Oklahoma has definitely diversified and not only that, it has a huge military and FAA presence plus multiple universities in the area. The fact that is is a capital city is a bigger deal than many people realize.

I agree that many college educated kids leave because pay is less (altough the cost of living mirrors that). I think part of why they leave is also because many educated young people tend to enjoy the types of cities that cater more to entertainment and recreation. But a lot of those kids come back after they've been gone 5 - 10 years. It is the kind of city where people put down roots.

Many cities have a hard time finding natives to their area because as they grow and attract educated (but frequently transient) residents, they turn into something the natives don't want so they move away to places that aren't so expensive, congested or expensive.

bombermwc
09-30-2009, 10:54 AM
Why is this in the Mid-Del forums?

mireaux
09-30-2009, 11:20 AM
As for your question as to why there are the traffic problems their are - in a word - money . Have you any earthly idea the cost to add the things you are discussing? It doesn't grow on trees, for sure. You can't just willy nilly draw new roads on the map the way we'd like. Again, check out an "old" city or one with rivers before you complain about lack of access. There are a lot of things to find to complain about but this nitpicking of lack of access truly leaves me astonished. If you lived in a fancy city back east, you'd understand.

Right! It takes tax dollars to build new roads, the more residents you have the more tax money is available for such. But since okc wants big city living yet everyone wants to be able to stretch their arms out and not rub against their neighbor-it takes a ridiculous amount of time to drive from one end of town to another.

Maybe if okc could get over its problem of thinking oil & agriculture is the only financially viable industries perhaps we could begin to attract other types of businesses into town, and the new residents that would ultimately relocate here seeking those other types of jobs available.

Youre comparing inland Oklahoma City to what exact city on the east coast? People tend to have an undying affinity to living close to pretty oceans. in fact, 50% of all american citizens reside within 100 miles of any given ocean shoreline, so it doesnt surprise me that whatever city you lived at back on the east coast had traffic problems.

JohnDenver
09-30-2009, 02:17 PM
Right! It takes tax dollars to build new roads, the more residents you have the more tax money is available for such. But since okc wants big city living yet everyone wants to be able to stretch their arms out and not rub against their neighbor-it takes a ridiculous amount of time to drive from one end of town to another.


You lead the movement. Just get over it and move into the city, where you will never have to drive from "end to end". Your complaining makes it sound like you are part of the problem, not the solution.

I live 2 miles north of downtown. I drive twice a week. Otherwise I can bike/walk to restaurants for lunch and dinner. Same for bars. I need to drive to the grocery store and movie theater, that is about it.

metro
09-30-2009, 03:03 PM
Same here, I live downtown, stacked upon other neighbors, ride my bike and scooter 5-6 days a week (except the week it was raining every day). Am able to walk to everything except a grocery store, well I guess I could even do that, but refuse to. Anyhow sounds like you just need to get out more, even in your own city. There are plenty of us young professionals and folks from all walks of life in the inner city/downtown that love the urban lifestyle.

mugofbeer
09-30-2009, 03:10 PM
Oklahoma City is the way it is because it was founded in 1889, grew during the advent and boom of the automobile and has plenty of available and cheap land around it to develop. OKC isn't surrounded or limited by expanses of water, mountains or expensive land. We have little in the way of housing built during horse and buggy days so OKC is the way it is because its a 20th century city.

OKC has a problem of seeing our children grow up and leave for more exciting places elsewhere to live, love and work. Economics and demographic trends will dictate the way OKC grows in the future. My observation is that more and more people - 20 & 30 somethings without children and older folks mainly without children desire a close-in place to live near entertainment and good restaurants.

OKC is only just starting to develop a significant number and choice of these types of places and as more set up shop, more people will desire to live close-in. Demand for urban-style living will result in more places being built. Projects like MAPS and C2S set the foundation for redevelopment of blighted areas and give us room to grow inward. Once there is a flow of interest inward to the urban areas, OKC will see significant changes and a limit to the outward-only growth.

There will always be those of us who enjoy the wide open spaces and greenery of our own and to that I say, "To each his own." For those who want the urban environment, all power to you and move inward. I only hope to see MAPS3 be a success so more inward momentum can be created. Eventually, it will become self-sustaining. Then we can move on to helping the middle-town areas see some improvement - some of those other pockets of blight the thread writer alluded to.

PennyQuilts
09-30-2009, 07:12 PM
Right! It takes tax dollars to build new roads, the more residents you have the more tax money is available for such. But since okc wants big city living yet everyone wants to be able to stretch their arms out and not rub against their neighbor-it takes a ridiculous amount of time to drive from one end of town to another.

I couldn't disagree more. OKC is super, super easy to get from one place to another when compared to many cities of similar size.


Maybe if okc could get over its problem of thinking oil & agriculture is the only financially viable industries perhaps we could begin to attract other types of businesses into town, and the new residents that would ultimately relocate here seeking those other types of jobs available.

I don't know who you are talking to or reading but I just don't see that. Maybe thirty years ago but we have discussed nothing but diversifying for fifteen years.


Youre comparing inland Oklahoma City to what exact city on the east coast? People tend to have an undying affinity to living close to pretty oceans. in fact, 50% of all american citizens reside within 100 miles of any given ocean shoreline, so it doesnt surprise me that whatever city you lived at back on the east coast had traffic problems.

I live near DC. I have never been to the ocean in nine years and as I sit here thinking, while I know people go, none of my neighbors have gone in the past seven years that I'm aware of. The congestion in this area is not because of the ocean. It is because I-95 cuts through carrying the bulk of east coast traffic going north and south, and because of city traffic. My husband spends three hours a day commuting by train into the city and back. It takes twenty minutes to drive there at midnight and about an hour and a half during rush hour. Both ways. If there isn't a wreck.

Even living outside the city, the traffic is so ridiculous that we take back roads and rush to go to the grocery store before 9:00 a.m. on the weekend to avoid the crush of people not only on the roads, but in the stores. On weekdays, you go between 10:30 and 11:30.

You can complain all you want about OKC but traffic as a significant issue is just not credible. You just don't realize how bad it can get. OKC is heaven in comparison and everytime we come back from visiting, we marvel at how wonderful the lack of traffic is. BTW, we have family on NW highway (and I admit it is crowded at rush hour but since there are so many alternative routes, you don't generally get stuck), people on the far east side, our home is in SW OKC and I spend a lot of time near OCU and in Norman. Trust me, getting around is not a problem.

okcpulse
09-30-2009, 08:43 PM
Not only is the highway infrastructure dated, but due to recent growth, its also inadequate for the amount of traffic it carries, and moreover the real issue is that there simply isnt enough highway route to effectively get anyone from point A to point B along the highways without having to..at some point..go needlessly a few miles out of your way to arrive at your destination.

Oklahoma City's 2020 plan calls for completing the Kilpatrick Turnpike leg that will curve around the western side of the airport, cross I-44 a few miles south of the I-240/I-44 split, and then intersect with I-35 south of Moore. S.H. 74 will soon be a four-lane divided highway from Memorial Rd. north for four miles.


I-240 westbound from I-35, as it connects to I-40 at the amarillo junction and proceeds northbound becoming I-44 is regarded as "OKC's west loop"

currently, there is no east loop..although a few years ago there was efforts to build such. The east loop would have passed along the eastern sides of MWC, Choctaw, Jones, etc...but it drew much protest from residents in these areas, and since has been thrown off the drawing board.

I guess eminent domain doesnt really work in all circumstances.

The population growth just isn't happening in eastern Oklahoma County to even warrant an east loop. And you are correct. Residents protested heavily.


neighborhoods are spread out, shopping centers are spread out...everything is spread out...nothing is nestled together. throughout the greater oklahoma city area there are wide patches of unused farmland that needlessly seperate residents and business from having the benefit of a well organized, and efficient metropolitan area..complete with well planned transporation, commerce, jobs and everything in between within its inlay. compare this to most other cities..it rarely exists elsewhere.

Houston's sprawl can swallow Oklahoma City whole several times over. Why are you singling out Oklahoma City when you know very well that there is just as much of an effort to pull people back downtown.


another real issue is that there is just one solitary highway that connects the state's largest city with the state's third largest city: oklahoma city and norman. whats worse is that the latter is growing at a fast rate, and no efforts are in place to build an alternate highway to connect the two cities together to alleviate the congestion on I-35.

And ODOT is working on widening I-35 from OKC to Norman. That and the planned extension of the Kilpatrick Turnpike which will terminate at I-35. Hopefully that should suffice your concerns for a while.


why did OKC feel the need to spend money to lure Bass Pro here in an attempt to draw other businesses here? did they really think other corporations were really going to relocate here just cause a major outdoor supply store is located here? what kind of logic is that? whats worse, theres no hiding the hideous patchworked highway that is the I-40 crosstown that Bass Pro is located right next to.

Okay, this is where I question how much you are informed about Oklahoma City. OKC didn't bring Bass Pro to the city in an attempt to lure business here. The money invested in other amenities the bioscience corridor and public schools FAR exceeds the incentives given to Bass Pro. And that hideous patchwork next to Bass Pro is coming down once the new I-40 is complete. My goodness where on Earth have you been on that one????


Why does our city feel the need to bribe businesses to come here, when other major cities simply take a back seat, improve their city on their own accord, and soon enough corporations begin to notice the benefits on their own merit.

Every city in every state bribes businesses to move to their community. It's pretty much a way of life. Other cities don't take the back seat and improve their city to their own accord. It's just that some other cities made improvements before OKC did and have been reaping the rewards. OKC making those improvements right now. But like every place else, it takes time to fully reap the rewards. People need to stop thinking this stuff happens over night. It doesn't.


If you reside in the Mid-Del area and are wanting to commute to Warr Acres, or Bethany,..there really isnt a direct route that will take you there. No highway exists that cuts diagonally across the city. You either take I-40 or I-240, over to I-44,..and more than likely you end up hitting about 15 different traffic lights along the dreaded Northworst Expressway.

Why cant a new highway be built? Why cant more highways be built that better serve both residents and those traveling to, and/or doing business in our city.

Your asking this a time when the entire country is hell-bent on not building any more new highways and going after light rail and other methods of green transportation. But the best solution to the dilemma you mentioned is converting N.W. 39th Expressway to a freeway. But I don't think the businesses will be too savvy on that solution.


If theres one thing any prospective business looks at before deciding where to locate, its definitely highway infrastructure, and OKC's is heavily deteriorated. Take a drive along northbound Sunnylane in Del City just north of 15th street and notice the large amount of accumulated rust spots on the I-40 overpass....really pretty, right?

Again, do your research on this. Do you NOT see all of the rehabilitation projects going on all over Oklahoma City? Or do you just not pay attention? BTW, I've seen the construction bids going out tentatively for October. Looks like I-40's number came up for resurfacing. As for OKC's highway infrastructure being heavily deteriorated? I'd say 20% of our freeway mileage is in less than good condition. 5% of that mileage is in bad condition, which is the Crosstown and the I-44/I-235 interchange.

Oklahoma DOT will be replacing or rehabilitating a ton of bridges across the state. Don't be too surprised to find I-40's overpasses in Del City and MWC to end up on the list.


Another thing that doesnt make sense is why there are various skyscapers located along the NW Expressway..Valliance Bank, and pretty much every other tall structure from Penn all the way out to Council Road...shouldnt those tall buildings all be located downtown, to help better the overall prominence of Oklahoma City's financial strength? (or at least present a faux facade of such)

There was a trend in the 1960s-1980s nationwide to build office buildings away from the CBD. It was done in Dallas, Houston, LA, Tulsa, Atlanta... need I go on? I agree with your ideaology, but Oklahoma City is not unique to this.


No troubles, from the looks of things, the new Devon Tower should rectify that issue.

There seems to exist a lacked effort in building new buildings in Oklahoma City..its a rarity of sorts. It seems on the whole that that the majority of most buildings in the city were built somewhere between 1955 and 1980, and after that, construction was far and few between. I guess that can be attributed to the oil bust of 1983.

It's about supply and demand. When corporate growth in Oklahoma City picks up, so will the demand for more office space. Check out the Journal Record's annual Book of Lists for some good info on Oklahoma City's office space, or pick up a copy of the paper for monthy stats on occupancy rates.


But Oklahoma cant rely on oil and agriculture forever as its chief economic structure.

It DOESN'T. I've had to emphasize many times before that Oklahoma City worked hard to diversify its economy after the 1983 oil bust. It's just that the energy companies based here have been enjoying growth. Oklahoma City doesn't rely on oil. It benefits from the presence of energy companies. If anything, Oklahoma City has been investing its time heavily on building up the biomedical research corridor.

It's really funny. When Oklahoma City tries to attract industry that's not oil or gas related, you people suggest they shouldn't come to Oklahoma City. But then, when you think Oklahoma City relies too heavily on oil and gas, you people suggest the city should diversify. Well, make up your freakin' mind. Do you want other inustries to open shop or not?


Its seems that the majority of native Oklahomans who attain college degrees move out of state to pursue careers

Because they've been indoctrinated by the anti-Oklahoma league that they are best to leave the state in search of opportunity.


and that those who hold college degrees and live and work in Oklahoma City are from other places other than Oklahoma City...as if they had no idea what to expect before moving here, and feel they were cheated in the end.

In no way do you have any capacity to know what thousands of people think or feel about Oklahoma City. Those are blatant assumptions. I know people with professional degrees that moved to OKC years ago, and they still love it here.


Why does other major cities have a lot more commerce compared to Oklahoma City. Why does Dallas have several malls (22 to be exact, and most of them are doing fairly good business showing no signs of weakening), but yet the greater Oklahoma City area has about 7 malls (Quail, Penn, Crossroads, Northpark, Heritage Park, Sooner, Shawnee) and about half of them are suffering in revenue.

Why? whats the difference? If Dallas/Ft Worth has a metropolitan populous of close to 6 million people and can support 22 malls...why cant Oklahoma City with close to 1 million populous in its greater vicinity simply support a mere 7 malls?

Well, if people in OKC stopped doing all of there shopping in Dallas, retail might follow their dollars back to OKC. How about that concept? The days of building indoor malls are pretty much over for most American cities. Outdoor lifestyle retail centers are all the rage these days, and Tuscana near Quail Springs Mall should fill that void when it is completed.

But your comparing OKC, whose MSA has 1.3 million people, which is just now coming into its own, with DFW, an MSA of 6.5 million, which has been an established national powerhouse for several decades. You also have to remember that Dallas gets more travel traffic.


What can Oklahoma City learn from other major cities to improve its financial record? to improve its transportation system? to reduce crime and drug trafficking? to better its schools? to lure other businesses here to relocate?

Even if the city should improve itself over time, could it be possible that we may someday serve as a shining example for some other troubled cities to learn from us?

Oklahoma City is doing everything it can. MAPS for Kids just wrapped up. You've seen what MAPS did to turn downtown and the city's spirits around. If it weren't for MAPS, Devon Energy would have moved to Houston. Larry Nichols said so himself. So the quality of life has helped Oklahoma City retain its current homegrown companies. Remember, aside from Devon, Chesapeake and Sandridge, Sonic, Express Personnel, Hobby Lobby, Love's and Globe Life Insurance all have their corporate HQ's here.

Sonic even built their new HQ in Bricktown as a sign of pride in their company's home town. The Chamber of Commerce and Convention & Visitors Bureau is working hard through the Forward Oklahoma City programs to attract new jobs to OKC, and both organizations have been working with the state to find solutions to improve school performance.

Even a website went up called Project Boomerang, to attract native Oklahomans back to Oklahoma, to create momentum to invest in Oklahoma's corporate future, and to grow education.

You need to let these people do their job and be patient with them. Things things don't happen over night.

bombermwc
10-01-2009, 08:59 AM
This is just a bitch-fest thread. Why is it even here?

kevinpate
10-01-2009, 10:11 AM
cause bitch fests need homes too?

westsidesooner
10-01-2009, 10:30 AM
Okc's traffic is nothing compared to most cities. But it does have its congested spots. Most of those are under construction as we speak.

I do wish they had made nwhy an interstate a long time ago. Some areas of far NW OKC has been hard to travel to forever. Hefner & MacArthur for example. Its (I-nwhy) impossible now of course, and I avoid nwhy at all costs. I-35 south is a nightmare at rush hour. Everytime I get caught it it I'm glad I'm not southsidesooner, but than again, it's not that bad when compared to other cities.

EBAH
10-01-2009, 11:38 AM
HAHA, I have never read this thread before today, because of it's totally weird location in the mid del forum. Mireaux came up with complaints that have NEVER even crossed my mind before (I am not meaning to indicate that they are rational). Traffic in this city is a breeze. I just flat out can not believe that any prospective business relocation would ever be nixed because of our highway system?!?! The city has it's problems, but so do most. The "checkerboard" of blight and wealth, well, I've always called that diversity, and I've always considered it one of our strong suits. If you don't like the sprawl and long commutes, move out of the suburbs. I used to live in Mid-Del, I liked it just fine as far as my house was concerned, but eventually, I got tired of driving to inner city OKC everyday, and just moved. I don't know about the OP's neighborhood, but mine is dense, clustered, vibrant, and a short bike ride away from restaurants, bars, downtown, etc..... I agree with a previous poster, file this one away with the "not enough parking downtown" threads

mireaux
10-01-2009, 12:42 PM
I don't know who you are talking to or reading but I just don't see that. Maybe thirty years ago but we have discussed nothing but diversifying for fifteen years.



.

discussion and affirmative action are two completely different things.

mireaux
10-01-2009, 12:49 PM
This is just a bitch-fest thread. Why is it even here?

you can call it that, and ignore the facts, then absolutely nothing positive will come to fruition. or you can change your stance a bit and see that my "bitching" is really identifying key issues that strongly need to be addressed to make okc a much better place to live.

so many other posters keep failing short of what im trying to convey in relation to what i mean regarding okc's highway system.

yesssss...the roads here are less congested. HOWEVER, they are not laid down with the most direct routes, so you are driving so much further and longer to get to whereever it is that you need to go.

so what if theres only 5 other cars on the highway as youre driving, youre still driving for a longer period of time and distance than you should be. if the highway routes were more direct, or if there were more highway routes in existence, your overall commute would be even more shorter in time and distance than it already is.

mireaux
10-01-2009, 12:59 PM
Oklahoma City's 2020 plan calls for completing the Kilpatrick Turnpike leg that will curve around the western side of the airport, cross I-44 a few miles south of the I-240/I-44 split, and then intersect with I-35 south of Moore. S.H. 74 will soon be a four-lane divided highway from Memorial Rd. north for four miles.



The population growth just isn't happening in eastern Oklahoma County to even warrant an east loop. And you are correct. Residents protested heavily.





And ODOT is working on widening I-35 from OKC to Norman. That and the planned extension of the Kilpatrick Turnpike which will terminate at I-35. Hopefully that should suffice your concerns for a while.




Oklahoma DOT will be replacing or rehabilitating a ton of bridges across the state. Don't be too surprised to find I-40's overpasses in Del City and MWC to end up on the list.







Well, if people in OKC stopped doing all of there shopping in Dallas, retail might follow their dollars back to OKC. How about that concept? The days of building indoor malls are pretty much over for most American cities. Outdoor lifestyle retail centers are all the rage these days, and Tuscana near Quail Springs Mall should fill that void when it is completed.



.

yeah, once the kilpatrick loop project is completed that should be much better, but knowing how things are its likely its going to be a tolled road when honestly it shouldnt be, at least the new section from norman/moore to okc should be toll-free.

people in okc do their shopping in dallas because of the diversity that dallas has. another reason is that texas offers an annual tax free weekend. why cant oklahoma do the same? ill answer that for you, because were a tax greedy state.

the I-40 overpass that spans over Sunnylane in Del City is hidious. I hope its the first on their list to be updated.

Well, if folks in eastern Ok county heavily protested sounds like the govt needs to step in firmer with that eminant domain clause and pull their land from up under their feet. If we did it to Indian tribes over 100 years ago, no reason why we cant do it today. We need it for a highway loop, folks! Come to terms with what needs to be done.

PennyQuilts
10-01-2009, 03:01 PM
Someone is searching for utopia as defined by him. Go get a job and once you have made a living for awhile, come back and let us know if you are still up for letting the government take your land, raise your taxes and impose other people's priorities on you. Don't mean to be snarky and I expect that is how this is coming across but your postings come across as someone who has had a couple of classes in damn the white man and save the planet. We all wish we had a magic wand at some point in our lives. But there isn't one. Reality has a way of getting in the way. The frustrating part about this thread is that so many of the things you have complained about are the sorts of things that good, civic minded people have been working hard on and you don't seem to be willing to acknowlege it or do the research. Maybe you are a 45 year old man but you come across as about 20, 22 years old who is complaining without doing the research or with a broader, more mature view. I recall OKC in the sixties and seventies and am so damn proud of my city for how far it has come and invested in its infrastructure. To miss how amazing that has been could only come from someone either too young to appreciate it and who hasn't done his homework, or someone whose brain has been bent to the point where it misses the obvious.

Sorry to offend you but I just have to speak up for this great city and the people working hard to make it even better.

gmwise
10-01-2009, 03:13 PM
Metro,
I think its important to voice whats wrong with our City.
If no one speaks up it leads to a slow down of the MAPS type things we need to do as a City.
My Great Grandparents wouldnt have been caught dead talking about how bad Jews had it under the Kaiser or the Czar.

gmwise
10-01-2009, 03:16 PM
What OKC is doing in investing in infrastructure through MAPS.
What the USA needs to do is invest in Wealth building, through infrastructure.
Lately its been neglected highways,bridges,dams, the power grids, the communications grids,airports,schools! all need to be invested in.

MadMonk
10-01-2009, 07:11 PM
Dallas traffic is horrible compared to OKC in nearly every meaningful way. What a terrible choice for a comparison.

OKC is laid out fine with respect to highways. With a few exceptions, it's a simple grid pattern, easily navigated via the main thoroughfares or highways. In your example, a simple way from 63rd and Independence to 50th and Rockwell would simply be to take 63rd to Rockwell and south to 50th. You get a light every mile and if you time it right, you get green lights or very little wait. You expect a direct route everywhere? Keep dreaming. I'd much rather have to take 63rd than have a bunch of highways criss-crossing our neighborhoods. I can get from far-NW OKC to Moore in about 40-50 minutes. That's an outstanding time. Try a distance like that in Dallas and you'd better pack a lunch.

I like the way OKC is spread out. I like having room between me and my neighbors. I like having large green areas between buildings and homes. It's part of the appeal for me. I've lived in places where that was not the case and while that may be okay for some, it's not for me. That's one of the many reasons this college graduate chose to stay here. There are plenty of other places where you can find what you are looking for. Go there and be happy. I've found what I'm looking for here. Don't Dallas my OKC.

mugofbeer
10-01-2009, 08:36 PM
yeah, once the kilpatrick loop project is completed that should be much better, but knowing how things are its likely its going to be a tolled road when honestly it shouldnt be, at least the new section from norman/moore to okc should be toll-free.

This isn't meant as an insult but sometimes things don't come across well in print. We would all love that all of our roads are built as free roads but the day has come that it simply isn't possible. Sure, if the state started taxing gasoline by 50-cents more a gallon we might be able to build that type of road but its not going to happen. Beloved Texas can't build free roads either, in case you didn't notice. All of the new roads around Houston, Dallas and Austin are toll roads. Sure, they have more money for maintenance but they also have nearly 25 million residents to our 3.5 million.

BTW - don't count on that Kilpatrick loop being closed anytime soon.


people in okc do their shopping in dallas because of the diversity that dallas has. another reason is that texas offers an annual tax free weekend. why cant oklahoma do the same? ill answer that for you, because were a tax greedy state.

Dallas does offer much more in the way of higher end shopping than does OKC. Dallas has many more fine restaurants than we do here and other types of entertainment we can't offer. I had the pleasure of staying at the Gaylord Texas and thought it was great. The Grey Wolf Resort across the road looks like it would be a great cold weather place due to the indoor water park. We don't offer the tax amesty day because 1) we don't have the revenues Texas does and 2) the tax amnesty day is a sales ploy because if you take one of the numerous discount coupons you get in the mail for virtually every store out there, you get more off your purchase than the Texas tax amnesty day. 3) for some to say they "bought it when they went shopping in Dallas" is like a cool status thing. My wife is guilty of this at times.


the I-40 overpass that spans over Sunnylane in Del City is hidious. I hope its the first on their list to be updated.

Agreed. I-40 thru MWC/DC needs a lot of work.


Well, if folks in eastern Ok county heavily protested sounds like the govt needs to step in firmer with that eminant domain clause and pull their land from up under their feet. If we did it to Indian tribes over 100 years ago, no reason why we cant do it today. We need it for a highway loop, folks! Come to terms with what needs to be done.

Good luck to you. I think another poster said what I had understood to be the case that the east loop was tabled due to citizen protests - people didn't want it through "their" land. Pretty short sighted IMO of them in most cases because the hiway will do nothing but raise their property values. Of course, some of them are very emotionally attached to their land and dont want to lose it. I can understand this - money isn't everything.

Redskin 70
10-04-2009, 09:00 AM
[QUOTE=mireaux;259278

the I-40 overpass that spans over Sunnylane in Del City is hidious. I hope its the first on their list to be updated.

.[/QUOTE]

I am curious why you would single out one small section approximatly1/2 mile in length and totally exclude the 29th st curve, the Cross town and I35 from the river north to Britton.
Oh and lets not forget the section of I40 from the fairgrounds west to Yukon. Horrible looking commercial sprawl, taking up such valuable farmland and all for the sake of ....................growth.

There are some of us that dislike the growth we have seen in our city and truly wish the foreigners would leave and go back to California ans points west and south.

As a long time Okie, I see nothing much wrong with our current system.
Most of the time there is no grid lock like reported in other sections of the country.
The traffic jams that occur are either accident oriented or construction related.
so.............................yes I also wonder just what and why this thread is even started....................and is in the Mid Del section only when so much of the system exists in the OKC metro area exclusively and which we in Mid Del have so little to do with.

bluedogok
10-05-2009, 09:08 PM
yesssss...the roads here are less congested. HOWEVER, they are not laid down with the most direct routes, so you are driving so much further and longer to get to whereever it is that you need to go.

so what if theres only 5 other cars on the highway as youre driving, youre still driving for a longer period of time and distance than you should be. if the highway routes were more direct, or if there were more highway routes in existence, your overall commute would be even more shorter in time and distance than it already is.
Highways are not the only way to get around and in most cities are not the "moist direct route" either, I have been driving around Denver all weekend and found it to be the same way as well.

When I lived in Dallas 17 years ago I lived 11 miles from downtown, it took me 45 minutes to an hour to get home from work on regular city streets, taking Central Expressway would take 1.5 hours or more. OKC is so much easier to get around not just because of less traffic but because it is also laid out on a grid. Here in Austin and in Dallas streets wind all over the place and change names 14 times and suddenly end. Austin didn't build any highways for years because much of those in power felt that if "they didn't build them, they wouldn't come"...well they found out how failed that was.

mugofbeer
10-05-2009, 10:21 PM
Highways are not the only way to get around and in most cities are not the "moist direct route" either, I have been driving around Denver all weekend and found it to be the same way as well.

When I lived in Dallas 17 years ago I lived 11 miles from downtown, it took me 45 minutes to an hour to get home from work on regular city streets, taking Central Expressway would take 1.5 hours or more. OKC is so much easier to get around not just because of less traffic but because it is also laid out on a grid. Here in Austin and in Dallas streets wind all over the place and change names 14 times and suddenly end. Austin didn't build any highways for years because much of those in power felt that if "they didn't build them, they wouldn't come"...well they found out how failed that was.

Next to maybe Austin, Denver has the poorest highway system of any major city in the country. Austin has at least completed some major new tollways so it may now be in better shape than Denver.

feconi
10-05-2009, 11:15 PM
Next to maybe Austin, Denver has the poorest highway system of any major city in the country. Austin has at least completed some major new tollways so it may now be in better shape than Denver.

Maybe so, but those tollways don't fix what's strangling Austin the most: I-35. This unfortunate freeway serves up to 250,000 vehicles per day on only six to eight lanes, complete with horrible 1950's-era onramps. (By comparison, the busiest stretch of freeway in OKC is I-44 between I-40 and SH 74 with 123,000 vehicles per day and eight lanes.) Austin desperately needs a Dallas Central Expressway-style makeover on I-35.

HOT ROD
10-06-2009, 12:27 AM
I totally agree with all of the OKC props going on and it is very wonderful to see people stand up for Oklahoma City. While I agree, OKC has its problems - but so does every other big city in America (maybe save Phoenix, which is essentially brand spanking new).

I am an OKC expat (at 1991) moved to Seattle and I can tell you, we have nearly 3 times the pop of metro OKC {3.3M} in Puget Sound, yet we have only 3 major freeways (I-5, I-405, and I-90). We have NO through roads, no grid, and our freeway system is just NOW reaching the level that could properly support a metro area of 2 million (Portland); let alone reaching our own.

I absolutely applaud Oklahoma City (metro of 1.3M) for its infrastructure and also for completely reinventing itself. I am so happy that my home town is the 'model' for new big cities - and I am elated at residents and expats alike, who see OKC realizing it's potential. I return to visit the city at least once a year and I am amazed at the progress but also do not understand the people (usually slow, uneducated) who fail to see what OKC has. Those folks usually say, well we have this - it's ok but not like Dallas.

Who freaking cares what Dallas has. Dallas is a great city and has had wonderful fortune (much of it to the demise of OKC) but Oklahoma City is also a great city and is the largest urban city in the south central region (TX, OK, AR, LA, NM, MS; also the plains for that matter KS, NB, SD, ND, IA) outside of those in Texas. Yet there are still some who seem to stagnate OKC or just have blinders on.

I sincerely hope MAPS III passes and the city makes good on those projects - because it will take OKC into the next level and cement it as a big time player. OKC doesn't have all that Dallas or Denver or Seattle has, but MAPS III will help OKC be a contender - and surely will lead to development that Mireaux and other "prove-it" folks are looking for.

I can tell you that Bricktown is WAY better than our Pioneer Square (b-town is bigger and more lively/more attractions), and downtown OKC has other hoods that deserve their own applause and support. I think it is spectacular for OKC to have so much yet have half the metro pop of it's typical competition.

As others have said, I think people in OKC need to travel more and get AWAY from the tourist trap areas; see other big cities the way they really are - most cities are really just mid-sized cities in sprawl metro areas. There really are only 2 or 3 MAJOR cities in America (NY, Chicago, LA?/SF?) who have everything you mention, but then again - they have problems of their own.

I say, support and enjoy living in OKC (very correct about need to supporting OKC retail and NOT Dallas). If you want better infrastructure, move inner or contact your politicians and your neighbours. If you want better restaurants/stores/shoppes, support what you have and email/contact the daylights out of who you want to come and the city officials. Just look at the turnaround OKC has had in the last 15 years alone - AMAZING.

Oklahoma City is great and I look forward to seeing the next 10 years and how the city will change next. While constructive criticism is great, and I do think there are many improvements needed in OKC - but I just don't buy into the OKC is crap crowd because I have lived in other major cities (as others who have posted) and believe me OKC has done MANY things correct.

If it weren't for the HEAT, i would strongly consider moving back as I have a great time every time I visit the city. And there are countless others, who admit it or not - but they enjoy what OKC has to offer.

:D

mireaux
10-06-2009, 07:22 AM
I totally agree with all of the OKC props going on and it is very wonderful to see people stand up for Oklahoma City. While I agree, OKC has its problems - but so does every other big city in America (maybe save Phoenix, which is essentially brand spanking new).

I am an OKC expat (at 1991) moved to Seattle and I can tell you, we have nearly 3 times the pop of metro OKC {3.3M} in Puget Sound, yet we have only 3 major freeways (I-5, I-405, and I-90). We have NO through roads, no grid, and our freeway system is just NOW reaching the level that could properly support a metro area of 2 million (Portland); let alone reaching our own.



:D

Your comparison of OKC's highway system to Seattle's is a poor one. OKC is in the heartland of the US and is junctioned by 3 major interstates that carry heavy interstate commercial freight traffic on a daily basis.

by shallow comparison, Seattle is nestled in the extreme corner of the US and its volume of commericial freight traffic pales in comparison.

Seattle may have more 4-wheeled traffic, but OKC sees more 18-wheelers passing through it simply due to OKC's center geographic location in the US and the adjacent states/areas that are traveled to via our local highway infrastructure.

It became evident to OKC that with that much commercial interstate traffic, it would be better to build a new ground level I-40 that will be cheaper to maintain over the years, than the existing tattered elevated one, which currently looks like concrete quiltwork just west of downtown before the Amarillo Junction.

Phoenix is actually worse off than OKC is. Its the 5th most populated MSA and is only served by two interstate highways that cross through it (10 & 17).Very much unlike OKC, Phoenix doesnt have the liberty to expand its population in all directions: its either bounded by large mountain ranges in some directions, or Indian Reservations in other directions. Most of its population expansion is occuring in the west valley. Add to the fact the Colorado River has a limited supply of water for AZ, NV, UT, and SoCal.

mireaux
10-06-2009, 07:35 AM
the busiest stretch of freeway in OKC is I-44 between I-40 and SH 74 with 123,000 vehicles per day and eight lanes.) .

Nah, it seems that way though cause that section of "freeway" has probably the highest rate of speeding vehicles on it. Thats why theres always a random speedtrap set up usually hidden under some various overpass.

Try going southbound on I-35 at the Dallas Junction headed towards Moore/Norman on any given weekday at evening rush hour. THATS, the busiest section of OKC freeway, by far.

PennyQuilts
10-06-2009, 07:44 AM
Your comparison of OKC's highway system to Seattle's is a poor one. OKC is in the heartland of the US and is junctioned by 3 major interstates that carry heavy interstate commercial freight traffic on a daily basis.

by shallow comparison, Seattle is nestled in the extreme corner of the US and its volume of commericial freight traffic pales in comparison.

Seattle may have more 4-wheeled traffic, but OKC sees more 18-wheelers passing through it simply due to OKC's center geographic location in the US and the adjacent states/areas that are traveled to via our local highway infrastructure.

It became evident to OKC that with that much commercial interstate traffic, it would be better to build a new ground level I-40 that will be cheaper to maintain over the years, than the existing tattered elevated one, which currently looks like concrete quiltwork just west of downtown before the Amarillo Junction.

Phoenix is actually worse off than OKC is. Its the 5th most populated MSA and is only served by two interstate highways that cross through it (10 & 17).Very much unlike OKC, Phoenix doesnt have the liberty to expand its population in all directions: its either bounded by large mountain ranges in some directions, or Indian Reservations in other directions. Most of its population expansion is occuring in the west valley. Add to the fact the Colorado River has a limited supply of water for AZ, NV, UT, and SoCal.

I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. There, I said it.

feconi
10-06-2009, 10:26 AM
Nah, it seems that way though cause that section of "freeway" has probably the highest rate of speeding vehicles on it. Thats why theres always a random speedtrap set up usually hidden under some various overpass.

Try going southbound on I-35 at the Dallas Junction headed towards Moore/Norman on any given weekday at evening rush hour. THATS, the busiest section of OKC freeway, by far.

Perhaps the best way to address your bizarre rationalization for that statistic is to say that certainly, "busy" doesn't necessarily correlate with "congested." Having said that, the stretch of freeway you referenced handles 95,000 vehicles per day on six lanes. On a per-lane basis that's about the same as the stretch of I-44 I referenced in my previous post. If you're insinuating that this stretch of I-35 in OKC is heavily congested--again, refer to my previous post where I mentioned I-35 in Austin with over 2.5x the amount of traffic volume on the same size of freeway. That is congested.

Don't take my word on the numbers:

Oklahoma Traffic Count Information System (http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/aadtcnt/map.aspx?map=Oklahoma%20%20County&year=2008)

Austin, Texas Traffic Counts (http://www.campotexas.org/pdfs/Traffic%20Counts%202007%20for%20website.pdf)

Still think it's "busiest by far?" Or does your experience trump the data?

metro
10-06-2009, 10:49 AM
people in okc do their shopping in dallas because of the diversity that dallas has. another reason is that texas offers an annual tax free weekend. why cant oklahoma do the same? ill answer that for you, because were a tax greedy state.

Not sure what bunker you've been hiding in Del City these last couple of years. All the major malls and retail outlets in OKC have been having a "tax free weekend" (I believe it was 2 weekends this year if not mistaken) for several years now. Yes Dallas, a City 6 times larger than OKC has more to offer, but people aren't really saving anything to go shop in Dallas. The money they spend on driving is more than the money they'll save in taxes on clothes. OKC would have more diversity in retail if people would quit going to Dallas all the time to purchase luxury goods and instead buy them online so that retailers can track that a significant portion of OKC does purchase luxury goods and brands foreign to our market.

mugofbeer
10-06-2009, 10:54 AM
by shallow comparison, Seattle is nestled in the extreme corner of the US and its volume of commericial freight traffic pales in comparison.

Seattle may have more 4-wheeled traffic, but OKC sees more 18-wheelers passing through it simply due to OKC's center geographic location in the US and the adjacent states/areas that are traveled to via our local highway infrastructure.


I cry BS on this one. Seattle is one of the nations busiest seaports with goods being shipped in and out by the millions of tons. Much of it goes in and out by rail but much goes by container ship and then by truck. Whether more goes thru OKC because of its centralized location and multiple hiways is unknown to me but I question what we would have much more truck traffic, if any.

mireaux
10-06-2009, 12:54 PM
I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. There, I said it.

(endless drumroll)....well???, why do you think that? dont beat around the bush then leap to hide in the foxhole. State your reasoning.

mireaux
10-06-2009, 12:59 PM
I cry BS on this one. Seattle is one of the nations busiest seaports with goods being shipped in and out by the millions of tons. Much of it goes in and out by rail but much goes by container ship and then by truck. Whether more goes thru OKC because of its centralized location and multiple hiways is unknown to me but I question what we would have much more truck traffic, if any.

yeah, its a busy seaport. but how far in range do you think seattle goods are distributed when pacific seaports such as san francisco and los angeles easily rival the quantity of goods being shipped then trucked.

perhaps some speciality goods are distributed to all 48 states, canada, and mexico from seattle, but there are so many other seaports on each coast and the range of regional distribution only stretches so far.

mireaux
10-06-2009, 01:03 PM
Not sure what bunker you've been hiding in Del City these last couple of years. All the major malls and retail outlets in OKC have been having a "tax free weekend" (I believe it was 2 weekends this year if not mistaken) for several years now. Yes Dallas, a City 6 times larger than OKC has more to offer, but people aren't really saving anything to go shop in Dallas. The money they spend on driving is more than the money they'll save in taxes on clothes. OKC would have more diversity in retail if people would quit going to Dallas all the time to purchase luxury goods and instead buy them online so that retailers can track that a significant portion of OKC does purchase luxury goods and brands foreign to our market.

dont forget about sporting events. people from okc always head to dallas every year for that annual throwdown in the autumn that happens at the cotton bowl.

not a sooners fan, so it aint my tax dollars being wasted down there.

perhaps we should get to work designing a better stadium to host the games up here? im sure the tax dollars could benefit us, instead of always benefiting texas.

mireaux
10-06-2009, 01:09 PM
Perhaps the best way to address your bizarre rationalization for that statistic is to say that certainly, "busy" doesn't necessarily correlate with "congested." Having said that, the stretch of freeway you referenced handles 95,000 vehicles per day on six lanes. On a per-lane basis that's about the same as the stretch of I-44 I referenced in my previous post. If you're insinuating that this stretch of I-35 in OKC is heavily congested--again, refer to my previous post where I mentioned I-35 in Austin with over 2.5x the amount of traffic volume on the same size of freeway. That is congested.

Don't take my word on the numbers:

Oklahoma Traffic Count Information System (http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/aadtcnt/map.aspx?map=Oklahoma%20%20County&year=2008)

Austin, Texas Traffic Counts (http://www.campotexas.org/pdfs/Traffic%20Counts%202007%20for%20website.pdf)

Still think it's "busiest by far?" Or does your experience trump the data?

No offense to you, but just like everything else in OKC, i feel those numbers are more than likely outdated.

OKC cant even fix its roads, or other stagnant problems. why should i begin to place trust that its record keeping is correct?

PennyQuilts
10-06-2009, 01:45 PM
(endless drumroll)....well???, why do you think that? dont beat around the bush then leap to hide in the foxhole. State your reasoning.

We've all stated our reasoning. Repeatedly. You sound completely out of touch. No offense. I have never seen anyone so off base as to attack OKC TRAFFIC???? As compared to other cities? That is just wild.

feconi
10-06-2009, 01:50 PM
No offense to you, but just like everything else in OKC, i feel those numbers are more than likely outdated.

They're from 2008. Enough said.


OKC cant even fix its roads, or other stagnant problems. why should i begin to place trust that its record keeping is correct?

Well, collecting traffic counts and entering them into a computer is rather trivial compared to "fixing the roads." Moreover, these so-called "stagnant problems" are a product of your lack of perspective rather than actual negligence by the city.

Give it up already.

bluedogok
10-06-2009, 02:38 PM
dont forget about sporting events. people from okc always head to dallas every year for that annual throwdown in the autumn that happens at the cotton bowl.

not a sooners fan, so it aint my tax dollars being wasted down there.

perhaps we should get to work designing a better stadium to host the games up here? im sure the tax dollars could benefit us, instead of always benefiting texas.
Because it would never be held in OKC, if it is moved away from DFW it will become a home and home series and be relegated to nothing more than another home game every other year. The fact that it is held in a location pretty much equidistant from both campuses (Norman is actually a few miles closer than Austin) and the stadium is split 50/50 and it is during the state fair makes it a unique and special game. So essentially all that "tax money" that Dallas gets wouldn't necessarily translate to tax money somewhere else. It would have no more of an impact on OKC/Norman or Austin than any other home game would.

EBAH
10-06-2009, 03:05 PM
Man, this thread gets dumber every time I look at it. You make it sound as if nearly 3 times the population and 3 busy seaports (there are 3 in puget sound that total around 55 million tons of traffic according to US C of E) is, not that different. There is flat out NO WAY that the highways of Oklahoma City get anywhere near the amount of traffic of the Puget sound area, 4 and 18 wheel alike, not even close. Even IF those goods are what you say, and are regional specialty goods (which they aren't) they still have to be trucked to surrounding communities. I thought you were talking about metro areas and not the state of Washington.

Your claims are ham fisted, un-researched, and visibly subjective. And as far as OU-Tex is concerned, you have got to be kidding me. It's not exactly rocket science to see that the arrangement makes more practical and economic sense for EVERYONE involved. It is the location in Dallas that has made the event what it is today.

What I'd really like to say, is that your rant has NO POINT. If it is that bad for you here and your life is made so terrible by our supposed lack of infrastructure, then please, please, please, spare us your acrimony and just leave already. I mean, what are you looking for from this post. Did you really expect anyone to just say, "Wow, you are right, the town I live in is terrible, your petty complaints and unsubstantiated comparisons have made me see the light. I should leave now for a city with a better highway layout and without so much poverty that I have to be confronted with on a daily basis" ???

metro
10-06-2009, 03:48 PM
Mods, why are we keeping this thread in the MWC/Del City forum when it has nothing to do with it? Just curious!

mugofbeer
10-06-2009, 11:06 PM
not a sooners fan, so it aint my tax dollars being wasted down there.


The current contract calls for each school to receive a direct subsidy from the City of Dallas of $850K thru 2011 rising to $1million in 2012-2015.

mugofbeer
10-06-2009, 11:08 PM
yeah, its a busy seaport. but how far in range do you think seattle goods are distributed when pacific seaports such as san francisco and los angeles easily rival the quantity of goods being shipped then trucked.

perhaps some speciality goods are distributed to all 48 states, canada, and mexico from seattle, but there are so many other seaports on each coast and the range of regional distribution only stretches so far.

Uh, like across the entire country? Its not the same goods that come into other seaports.

How old are you? 18 - 20???

metro
10-07-2009, 02:32 PM
The current contract calls for each school to receive a direct subsidy from the City of Dallas of $850K thru 2011 rising to $1million in 2012-2015.

woop, the economic impact of that game is in the tens of millions - per year!

mugofbeer
10-07-2009, 11:15 PM
I would be curious to know what the impact would be to the City of Norman and the Metro area if the game were played here every other year? It would be far less than the DFW area gets because there would be far less Texans coming here for the game. I would be curious if it would be more than the $1mm?

bluedogok
10-08-2009, 08:20 PM
The economic impact from most home games is around 2-3 million here in Austin according to a news report earlier this year, I would imagine is is somewhere around the same for Norman/OKC. It would have no more impact than any other home game, both OU and UT have about the same number of home games as any other school that does not have a neutral site game so I don't think it would be an additional game. The schedule would be adjusted accordingly.

okcpulse
10-08-2009, 09:58 PM
people in okc do their shopping in dallas because of the diversity that dallas has. another reason is that texas offers an annual tax free weekend. why cant oklahoma do the same? ill answer that for you, because were a tax greedy state.


You need to check your facts on tax burdens between Oklahoma and Texas. First, Oklahoma does offer a tax free weekend. It started a few years ago, and is typically held around the same time as Texas' tax free weekend. And yes, it is a state-sanctioned tax free weekend.

Now, down to other taxes that Texas slaps on its 25 million people that for some reason bitch about the taxes but pay them anyway without protesting the state....

Average property taxe rates

$939 on a $130,000 home in Oklahoma
$2,288 on a $130,00 home in Texas

Sales taxes on average are about the same, slightly higher in Oklahoma. Every city in the Houston CMSA charges 8.25%. And don't the the grocery exemption fool you either... it's only on basic staples.

Texas
Sales tax on vehicle purchases: 6.25%
Vehicle inspections: $39.50
Registration fees: $53.80

Oklahoma
Excise (sales) tax on vehicles: 3.25%
Vehicle inspections: none
Registration fees: range from $25.00 to $95.00

Oklahoma does have an income taxes where Texas doesn't. But put this into perspective... the Oklahoma state income tax rate went down on the top bracket. I may pay more when I get a raise, but my income taxes won't skyrocket just because my neighbor put a pool in his back yard and landscaped the crap out of the front yard. In Texas, people have to take off a day just to go protest their property taxes. It's ridiculous.

My house in Conroe was valued at $104,000 last year. The property taxes went up ten percent to $3,570, even though the value was flat from 2007-2008.

Then there are the higher gas taxes per gallon. And the school taxes, independent from property taxes. And the deregulated electric companies with variable fuel charge rates that can go up without any notice. Then when you MOVE to Texas, they have a welcome wagon for you in the form of a "new residence tax" they charge on each of your vehicles upon the first year of registration.

Still liking Texas are we? I can go on all day long. But if people are willing to salivate over and move to Texas and pay the property taxes and all the other surprises they seem oblivious to, then perhaps we should cut Oklahoma some slack.

metro
10-12-2009, 01:35 PM
Mods, why are you keeping this thread in MWC/Del City? It's blatantly about OKC, I don't get it. So should I start MWC threads in OKC Metro Area? Not trying to pick a fight, I just don't understand why have the seperate sections if threads about MWC (which there are) stay in OKC Metro and OKC threads in MWC/Del City section.

HVAC Instructor
10-12-2009, 01:44 PM
Mods, why are you keeping this thread in MWC/Del City? It's blatantly about OKC, I don't get it. So should I start MWC threads in OKC Metro Area? Not trying to pick a fight, I just don't understand why have the seperate sections if threads about MWC (which there are) stay in OKC Metro and OKC threads in MWC/Del City section.

Ahhhh...yet another aspiring wannabe forum mod. :LolLolLol

metro
10-12-2009, 01:49 PM
Pot, this is kettle, you're black. HVAC, from your brief time here, you appear to be the same way, only purposely antagonizing posters.

But back to topic. Nope, I kindly declined it (mod) when it was offered to me several years ago, along with buying the site.

Martin
10-12-2009, 02:47 PM
metro, you resurrected a thread that hasn't been posted in for four days just to whine about its location. if you have a question about moderation send it via pm. we've been through this. you know better.

you reported the thread. we looked into it. this public lobbying whenever you don't get your way is getting quite irritating.

back to topic.

-M