View Full Version : US abortion doctor killed at Wichita church



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Bostonfan
05-31-2009, 06:41 PM
http://newsok.com/us-abortion-doctor-killed-at-wichita-church/article/3374078?custom_click=lead_story_title


No one here can justify this, right?

PennyQuilts
05-31-2009, 06:51 PM
I'm horrified. Why would you even ask such a question? It seems just so strange to me that anyone would even consider that good people who are opposed to abortion for ethical reasons would defend this murderous act. Only goes to show how people are quick to demonize people who disagree with them.

Midtowner
05-31-2009, 06:57 PM
Believe it or not, there are a lot of folks who agree with what was done here.

PennyQuilts
05-31-2009, 07:02 PM
Believe it or not, there are a lot of folks who agree with what was done here.


Name names, Mid.

Throwing out that sort of garbage only undermines the likelihood of rational debate. Anyone who agreed with this is a nut. There are plenty of nuts out there on every subject. No point is bringing them up because as soon as you do, people will hop on that and try to claim the moral high ground on the basis of disagreement with lunatics.

Midtowner
05-31-2009, 07:11 PM
Name names, Mid.

Throwing out that sort of garbage only undermines the likelihood of rational debate. Anyone who agreed with this is a nut. There are plenty of nuts out there on every subject. No point is bringing them up because as soon as you do, people will hop on that and try to claim the moral high ground on the basis of disagreement with lunatics.

Another board I frequent:

OU Insider Forums (http://ouinsider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113242)

bluedogok
05-31-2009, 07:15 PM
I have seen a thread about this on a few other forums since it happened, and yes, there are people who are saying it was justified because of what the doctor did. Not a majority but there are definitely some of them out there.

Midtowner
05-31-2009, 07:18 PM
I'm like ECO, if I hadn't actually read people sympathizing with this murder, I wouldn't believe that such people could exist.

kevinpate
05-31-2009, 07:42 PM
Oh, they exist. They walk amongst us, daily.
They drink coffee or juice or 100$ whole milk at the table next to you at lunch, or elbow up to you at a bar, or share a bus ride, or swing a golf club in a foursome with you.

Many wear they feelings on their sleeves and are as easy to spot as a blimp of a fella at a Kate Moss look alike contest. The rest, they give the nod, a fleeting knowing nod, to their brothers and sisters in arms, but otherwise quietly maintain their secret hatred for those who hold different views.

nighttrain12
05-31-2009, 09:43 PM
Some people nationally are already praising the killers actions. They're wrong of course.

Kan. abortion doc killed in church; suspect held - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090601/ap_on_re_us/us_tiller_shooting;_ylt=As.gNS1MDTg2wvt1f5Jjj2Ps.6 F4;_ylu=X3oDMTMycDNlbmRqBGFzc2V0Ay9hcC8yMDA5MDYwMS 9hcF9vbl9yZV91cy91c190aWxsZXJfc2hvb3RpbmcEY3BvcwMy BHBvcwMyBHNlYwN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDa2FuYWJvcn Rpb25k)


But Randall Terry, a veteran anti-abortion activist who founded Operation Rescue and whose protests have often targeted Tiller, called the slain doctor "a mass murderer," adding: "He was an evil man — his hands were covered with blood."

At a vigil in downtown Wichita that attracted a few hundred people, about 10 protesters from Topeka's Westboro Baptist Church held signs emblazoned with such messages as "Abortion is bloody murder" and "Baby killer in hell." The church is known for picketing military funerals.

HSC-Sooner
05-31-2009, 11:57 PM
http://newsok.com/us-abortion-doctor-killed-at-wichita-church/article/3374078?custom_click=lead_story_title


No one here can justify this, right?

I doubt anyone here who can justify this will post in this thread.

edcrunk
06-01-2009, 12:31 AM
it sucks to reap what you sow.

Oh GAWD the Smell!
06-01-2009, 05:33 AM
The only thing I find surprising is that he's a standing member of a church that'll have him. I've got to hand it to them....Some VERY understanding and non-judgemental folks there.

nighttrain12
06-01-2009, 07:42 AM
The only thing I find surprising is that he's a standing member of a church that'll have him. I've got to hand it to them....Some VERY understanding and non-judgemental folks there.

He must have made some monetary contributions generated from his 'business'.

NativeOkie
06-01-2009, 08:03 AM
Hey, They person that shot him is not a Christian. So stop that leaning in the posts. He is a murderer. (period)

Edmond_Outsider
06-01-2009, 11:37 AM
Hey, They person that shot him is not a Christian. So stop that leaning in the posts. He is a murderer. (period)

But Jesus would want him to murder that Doctor.

fuzzytoad
06-01-2009, 12:14 PM
But Jesus would want him to murder that Doctor.

No. Jesus would want him to love that Doctor despite how he personally feels about the Doctor's job, personal morals, or religious beliefs.

A group of judgemental, fundamentalist nutjobs would insist that he be mudered in the name of Jesus.

nighttrain12
06-01-2009, 01:01 PM
No. Jesus would want him to love that Doctor despite how he personally feels about the Doctor's job, personal morals, or religious beliefs.

A group of judgemental, fundamentalist nutjobs would insist that he be mudered in the name of Jesus.

It was just one nutjob, not a group of them.

joel228
06-01-2009, 02:28 PM
I can't justify this. While I would like to see the late Dr. Tiller's clinic shut down, no one can rightly justify his murder. While I believe like Randy Terry that Dr. Tiller was a mass-murderer, that does not justify anyone murdering him. This was a terrible thing and is rightly being condemned by virtually all pro-life groups.

OKCMallen
06-01-2009, 02:48 PM
Name names, Mid.



Didn't Coburn once have a questionable quote about charing abortion doctors with murder or something similar? Not exactly the same as killing one, but it's indicative of the mindset.

edcrunk
06-01-2009, 05:25 PM
actually... the gunman shoulda drug him out by his feet, leaving his head just inside the church, punched a hole in the back of his skull and sucked out his brains with a shop vac. that woulda been justice.
the irony is that someone can murder a preagnant woman and be charged for 2 murders... but this doctor can kill a baby that is late term in kansas and it is protected by law.

USG '60
06-01-2009, 05:45 PM
Ed, I will pray that God will forgive you for that thoroughly un-Christian remark. People like you break my heart.

nighttrain12
06-01-2009, 06:55 PM
Ed, I will pray that God will forgive you for that thoroughly un-Christian remark. People like you break my heart.

All those unborn babies that were killed by abortionists break my heart.

Bostonfan
06-01-2009, 06:57 PM
I'm horrified. Why would you even ask such a question? It seems just so strange to me that anyone would even consider that good people who are opposed to abortion for ethical reasons would defend this murderous act. Only goes to show how people are quick to demonize people who disagree with them.

Hmmmm, check out Ed's post. Sick isn't it?

Whether you are pro life/pro choice, there is no need for that comment. For some reason though, I knew it was coming.....

venture
06-01-2009, 08:57 PM
Please utilize the report post function to alert the mods to get things back under control. There should be several permanent bans given out for some of the posts here.

MikeOKC
06-01-2009, 10:28 PM
Please utilize the report post function to alert the mods to get things back under control. There should be several permanent bans given out for some of the posts here.

I agree. Anybody applauding the murder of a man or woman would be banned in an instant on most forums. We'll see.

Midtowner
06-02-2009, 06:05 AM
Please utilize the report post function to alert the mods to get things back under control. There should be several permanent bans given out for some of the posts here.

Whoa there.

I strongly disagree with that one. No matter how patently idiotic and uncivilized their views, we're all entitled to our own stupid opinions.

Supporting domestic terrorism, however, especially in a place like OKC is pretty suspect. I'll grant you that.

GWB
06-02-2009, 06:28 AM
I agree. Anybody applauding the murder of a man or woman would be banned in an instant on most forums. We'll see.

Not sure what forums you participate in but I haven't found that to be true on forums I participate on, especially news/opinion/political forums. I strongly disagree with those comments, but they have a right to express their opinions regardless how offensive it might be. We don't ban people who say it's OK to slaughter preborn babies, so why should we ban people who say they're glad an abortionist was murdered? Like I said, I strongly disagree with people who take pleasure in the murder of someone they disagree with, but let's not ban people here for stating their opinions no matter how outrageous it may seem. As long as people are obeying the rules of the forum I see no reason to ban them.

bornhere
06-02-2009, 06:47 AM
It was just one nutjob, not a group of them.

The Pitch, Kansas City (http://blogs.pitch.com/plog/2009/06/inside_the_car_of_the.php#)

Midtowner
06-02-2009, 07:24 AM
Not sure what forums you participate in but I haven't found that to be true on forums I participate on, especially news/opinion/political forums. I strongly disagree with those comments, but they have a right to express their opinions regardless how offensive it might be. We don't ban people who say it's OK to slaughter preborn babies, so why should we ban people who say they're glad an abortionist was murdered? Like I said, I strongly disagree with people who take pleasure in the murder of someone they disagree with, but let's not ban people here for stating their opinions no matter how outrageous it may seem. As long as people are obeying the rules of the forum I see no reason to ban them.

GWB supports domestic terrorism so long as he agrees with the domestic terrorist.

GWB
06-02-2009, 07:30 AM
GWB supports domestic terrorism so long as he agrees with the domestic terrorist.

Huh??? You lost me there, Mid. Where did I say, or even imply, that I support domestic terrorism? Had your coffee yet?

Caboose
06-02-2009, 09:27 AM
I can't justify this. While I would like to see the late Dr. Tiller's clinic shut down, no one can rightly justify his murder. While I believe like Randy Terry that Dr. Tiller was a mass-murderer, that does not justify anyone murdering him. This was a terrible thing and is rightly being condemned by virtually all pro-life groups.

If you believe that Dr. Tiller was a mass-murderer and intended on murdering again, then you have justified it.

Caboose
06-02-2009, 09:43 AM
GWB supports domestic terrorism so long as he agrees with the domestic terrorist.

The pro-choice people believe that a fetus is not a person and has no rights.
The pro-life people believe that a fetus is a person and has the same rights as everyone else.

Spare me the faux outrage over Dr Tillers death and the terrorism hyperbole.

Until someone proves or disproves that a fetus is a human with rights then this entire argument accomplishes nothing other than to assuage a few poster's pathetic desire to show how their side is morally superior to the other.

HSC-Sooner
06-02-2009, 09:46 AM
We can prove that Dr. Tiller has human rights and to justify/approve his murder is what's shocking.

Caboose
06-02-2009, 10:07 AM
We can prove that Dr. Tiller has human rights and to justify/approve his murder is what's shocking.

But you cant prove that his victims didn't have human rights. If they did, then his murder was justified. So in the end it it comes down to which unproven statement you believe.

So either prove one of the statements or get off your moral high horse.

kmf563
06-02-2009, 10:26 AM
actually... the gunman shoulda drug him out by his feet, leaving his head just inside the church, punched a hole in the back of his skull and sucked out his brains with a shop vac. that woulda been justice.
the irony is that someone can murder a preagnant woman and be charged for 2 murders... but this doctor can kill a baby that is late term in kansas and it is protected by law.

You seriously need therapy.

Please tell me where in the bible it says to kill those whom you think are not doing right by God??

And please don't tell me what should or should not be law about abortions until you or someone you love has been in a situation in which one is required. One of my friends just had to carry a baby full term knowing it would die thanks to the states anti-abortion laws. She found out at 4 months that it would 100% not live, but that is passed the abortion time frame. She carried it full term, delivered it, had to pay for every doctor bill, then a funeral because it died 15 minutes after being born. I would have gladly driven her to Kansas if that were an option at the time.

Lord Helmet
06-02-2009, 10:48 AM
I'm actually surprised that anyone has come out on this forum in the gunman's defense at all. Those people are usually cowards. At least edcrunk had the balls to say what he was thinking, as sick and twisted as it was.

GWB
06-02-2009, 12:45 PM
GWB supports domestic terrorism so long as he agrees with the domestic terrorist.

Still waiting for you to back your statement up that I support domestic terrorism.

Midtowner
06-02-2009, 12:54 PM
Still waiting for you to back your statement up that I support domestic terrorism.

You support the killing of a human being because of his ideology and you fervently hope that said killing will have a chilling effect on the practices of those who do as he does.

GWB
06-02-2009, 12:59 PM
You support the killing of a human being because of his ideology and you fervently hope that said killing will have a chilling effect on the practices of those who do as he does.

I think you have confused me with another poster. You will not find anything I have posted that even remotely matches what you are saying. Please back it up with something I said or acknowledge you have made a mistake. Go back and read what I wrote then tell me where you are getting this ridiculous idea that I support domestic terrorism.

joel228
06-02-2009, 01:15 PM
If you believe that Dr. Tiller was a mass-murderer and intended on murdering again, then you have justified it.
Caboose,
I believe Dr. Tiller was a mass-murderer and intended on murdering again. It does not logically follow that I think his murder was justified. I believe there is a just judgment against unrepentant abortionists. But it is not for me or any other person to make that judgment or execute that judgment. What Dr. Tiller's killer did was just as wrong as what Dr. Tiller did, and was not at all justified.

Caboose
06-02-2009, 01:18 PM
Caboose,
I believe Dr. Tiller was a mass-murderer and intended on murdering again. It does not logically follow that I think his murder was justified. I believe there is a just judgment against unrepentant abortionists. But it is not for me or any other person to make that judgment or execute that judgment. What Dr. Tiller's killer did was just as wrong as what Dr. Tiller did, and was not at all justified.

Most people would agree that killing an adult in order to stop him from murdering babies is justified. Maybe not legally, but morally.

HSC-Sooner
06-02-2009, 02:23 PM
But you cant prove that his victims didn't have human rights. If they did, then his murder was justified. So in the end it it comes down to which unproven statement you believe.

So either prove one of the statements or get off your moral high horse.

His murder is never justified, no matter how you look at it despite his 'victims'. Unless Dr. Tiller was an enemy combatant in Iraq or Afghanistan or was convicted in a court with jury, murdering ANYONE in the name of 'justice', 'salvation', or hatred is never ever justified. PERIOD.

You don't have to define 'victims' to ever justify killing a sentient human being with family, friends, and colleagues. Only in the court of law or on a battlefield. And despite what people like to think, we live in a civilized country.

Oh GAWD the Smell!
06-02-2009, 03:03 PM
Most people would agree that killing an adult in order to stop him from murdering babies is justified. Maybe not legally, but morally.

I think most people would disagree with that.

Caboose
06-02-2009, 03:09 PM
His murder is never justified, no matter how you look at it despite his 'victims'. Unless Dr. Tiller was an enemy combatant in Iraq or Afghanistan or was convicted in a court with jury, murdering ANYONE in the name of 'justice', 'salvation', or hatred is never ever justified. PERIOD.

You don't have to define 'victims' to ever justify killing a sentient human being with family, friends, and colleagues. Only in the court of law or on a battlefield. And despite what people like to think, we live in a civilized country.

Many would disagree. The law (nor the government) does not give us our right to life, it protects our right to life. Our inalienable rights transcend any law written by man. It is certainly not unreasonable to protect the lives of the defenseless by killing the person who attends to murder them.

Caboose
06-02-2009, 03:11 PM
I think most people would disagree with that.

I don't. If there were some guy killing babies in my neighborhood I would personally shoot him in the head. In fact, if the police would not stop him and the government sanctioned his actions I would feel even more compelled to do it. I would consider it a duty.

Legal != moral.

Following barbaric laws does not make one civilized, and it certainly does not make one "right".

HSC-Sooner
06-02-2009, 03:21 PM
Many would disagree. The law (nor the government) does not give us our right to life, it protects our right to life. Our inalienable rights transcend any law written by man. It is certainly not unreasonable to protect the lives of the defenseless by killing the person who attends to murder them.

With your logic, it's justifiable for the widow to seek out the gunman and kill him. It's a very slippery slope, due to the laws of the system we live in. If we live in a lawless country, then sure, we can go ahead and be vigilantes.

But we don't! What stops you from seeking out a random muslim who believes he has the right to kill civilians to further out his religion? What prevents you from seeking out other abortion doctors and nurses to kill? What stops civilians from roaming the streets, looking for anti-abortionists to kill to prevent doctorcide?

Don't mix up your 'duty' with your faith. Your 'duty' to kill doctors if the government and police won't step in makes you no less different from muslims who believe it's their duty to kill non-muslims. "Since Saudi Arabia won't declare war on the U.S., I will assemble my fellow terrorists to fly planes into buildings"

Sounds familiar? You're no different than a terrorist if you admit to that sense of 'duty'.

Caboose
06-02-2009, 03:25 PM
With your logic, it's justifiable for the widow to seek out the gunman and kill him. It's a very slippery slope, due to the laws of the system we live in. If we live in a lawless country, then sure, we can go ahead and be vigilantes.

But we don't! What stops you from seeking out a random muslim who believes he has the right to kill civilians to further out his religion? What prevents you from seeking out other abortion doctors and nurses to kill? What stops civilians from roaming the streets, looking for anti-abortionists to kill to prevent doctorcide?

Don't mix up your 'duty' with your faith. Your 'duty' to kill doctors if the government and police won't step in makes you no less different from muslims who believe it's their duty to kill non-muslims. "Since Saudi Arabia won't declare war on the U.S., I will assemble my fellow terrorists to fly planes into buildings"

Sounds familiar? You're no different than a terrorist if you admit to that sense of 'duty'.

Your post is full of mistakes about me. This is due to you jumping to conclusions about things I must think and some strange idea about "my faith". Fix these then I will respond to the rest of your irrational analogies.

Hint: I am agnostic.

Oh GAWD the Smell!
06-02-2009, 03:29 PM
I don't. If there were some guy killing babies in my neighborhood I would personally shoot him in the head. In fact, if the police would not stop him and the government sanctioned his actions I would feel even more compelled to do it. I would consider it a duty.

Legal != moral.

Following barbaric laws does not make one civilized, and it certainly does not make one "right".

If you're so duty bound, why have you not shot, in the head, any of the doctors in your area that perform abortions? Not like they're hard to find. What's stopping you?

Caboose
06-02-2009, 03:34 PM
If you're so duty bound, why have you not shot, in the head, any of the doctors in your area that perform abortions? Not like they're hard to find. What's stopping you?

I have never heard of a doctor who went around killing babies. Wait, are you saying that a fetus is a baby?

Heyuri
06-02-2009, 03:45 PM
Many would disagree. The law (nor the government) does not give us our right to life, it protects our right to life. Our inalienable rights transcend any law written by man. It is certainly not unreasonable to protect the lives of the defenseless by killing the person who attends to murder them.

You are using your religion to justify the murder of an innocent man because your religion tells you that he is not innocent. The law says he is innocent, change the law. Until then, you are using your religion as a weapon of terror against those who believe differently.

Caboose
06-02-2009, 03:49 PM
You are using your religion to justify the murder of an innocent man because your religion tells you that he is not innocent. The law says he is innocent, change the law. Until then, you are using your religion as a weapon of terror against those who believe differently.

Really? Are you sure? What is my religion?
Try to think a little more outside the box.

HSC-Sooner
06-02-2009, 03:56 PM
Your post is full of mistakes about me. This is due to you jumping to conclusions about things I must think and some strange idea about "my faith". Fix these then I will respond to the rest of your irrational analogies.

Hint: I am agnostic.

Sorry for the faith charge. However, religious or agnostic or not, there is still no justification for vigilante justice and is no different than vigilante justice committed by anyone.

Oh GAWD the Smell!
06-02-2009, 03:56 PM
You are using your religion to justify the murder of an innocent man because your religion tells you that he is not innocent. The law says he is innocent, change the law. Until then, you are using your religion as a weapon of terror against those who believe differently.

Caboose isn't using religion. Caboose isn't even saying what Caboose believes really. Caboose is being intentionally obtuse about the whole thing so Caboose can deny it when somebody says what they think Caboose believes.

Caboose is also trying to steer the conversation and pick a fight about conception and nobody's really biting because it's not the issue here...So Caboose isn't enjoying the bombs getting dropped on Caboose's logic.

But that's just OGTS's 3rd person view.

HSC-Sooner
06-02-2009, 04:00 PM
Caboose isn't using religion. Caboose isn't even saying what Caboose believes really. Caboose is being intentionally obtuse about the whole thing so Caboose can deny it when somebody says what they think Caboose believes.

Caboose is also trying to steer the conversation and pick a fight about conception and nobody's really biting because it's not the issue here...So Caboose isn't enjoying the bombs getting dropped on Caboose's logic.

But that's just OGTS's 3rd person view.

Actually, I'm sure Caboose really is agnostic. But that's a different topic ;-)

Caboose
06-02-2009, 04:02 PM
Caboose isn't using religion. Caboose isn't even saying what Caboose believes really. Caboose is being intentionally obtuse about the whole thing so Caboose can deny it when somebody says what they think Caboose believes.

Caboose is also trying to steer the conversation and pick a fight about conception and nobody's really biting because it's not the issue here...So Caboose isn't enjoying the bombs getting dropped on Caboose's logic.

But that's just OGTS's 3rd person view.

Why would Caboose be in a position to deny what someone says Caboose believes if said person weren't jumping to conclusions, making knee-jerk reactions, or fabricating Caboose's stances and trying to make the conversation about Caboose rather than the topic at hand?

Caboose is neutral on the subject. But that is really neither here nor there.

It is interesting though that you equated a fetus to baby, yet wouldn't defend a baby (or a fetus) from a man who was trying to murder it.

HSC-Sooner
06-02-2009, 04:06 PM
Why would Caboose be in a position to deny what someone says Caboose believes if said person weren't jumping to conclusions, making knee-jerk reactions, or fabricating Caboose's stances and trying to make the conversation about Caboose rather than the topic at hand?

Caboose is neutral on the subject. But that is really neither here nor there.

It is interesting though that you equated a fetus to baby, yet wouldn't defend a baby (or a fetus) from a man who was trying to murder it.

I don't see any posts by OGTS in this topic that equates fetuses to a baby. Besides, this topic is more about is it right to kill this doctor (at least in a take justice into your own hands sense).

I guess you are justified if there is someone walking around killing infants and they're about to kill again soon and you have the means to stop him/her.

HOWEVER, if you know someone who's about to kill an infant and there is plenty of time for the police to react and there's no imminent danger, then it's wrong to shoot him/her in the head.

PennyQuilts
06-02-2009, 04:08 PM
Didn't Coburn once have a questionable quote about charing abortion doctors with murder or something similar? Not exactly the same as killing one, but it's indicative of the mindset.

Completely different mindset. Absolutely no comparison. One wants to use the law to strengthen protections of life. The other ignores the law to murder - pure vigilantism.

Heyuri
06-02-2009, 04:11 PM
Really? Are you sure? What is my religion?
Try to think a little more outside the box.

OK, regardless of religion, you are using your belief that something is wrong, to justify the murder of an innocent man. There are other groups that do that too, you just call them terrorists because they don't share the same beliefs as you.

Caboose
06-02-2009, 04:14 PM
Sorry for the faith charge. However, religious or agnostic or not, there is still no justification for vigilante justice and is no different than vigilante justice committed by anyone.

It is 160 years ago, deep in the heart of Georgia. You encounter a small group of escaped slaves being pursued by a couple of enraged slave masters who are firing upon the slaves. You and your entourage are fully armed. What do you do?

Don't forget about the law, Vigilante.

Again, the right to life is not granted by the laws of man. It transcends our feeble courts and flawed documents. If our imperfect legal system fails to protect our freedoms then it can be justified to take actions above our legal system. Are you forgetting how our nation was formed in the first place?

The pro-life people believe that an unborn baby is an entire person with full inalienable human rights. To them, it has nothing to do with the law.

Caboose
06-02-2009, 04:14 PM
OK, regardless of religion, you are using your belief that something is wrong, to justify the murder of an innocent man. There are other groups that do that too, you just call them terrorists because they don't share the same beliefs as you.

I don't have beliefs.