View Full Version : Oklahoman editor Ed Kelly blasts state legislature



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jbrown84
04-24-2009, 10:59 AM
http://www.newsok.com/singing-lips-praise-despite-opposition-from-oklahoma-house/article/3364065

So can we stop the unfair "Daily Disappointment" crap?

soonerguru
04-24-2009, 11:11 AM
Wow! Good on Ed Kelley for laying the smack down. I wish the Oklahoman would have come out harder, sooner, against these knuckledraggers, but I'll take what I can get.

Henry should fire up that veto pen, because he's going to be needing to use it virtually every day against this crowd. It might actually make him a hero to Oklahomans.

Decious
04-24-2009, 11:17 AM
Finally.

Platemaker
04-24-2009, 11:26 AM
Way to go, Ed!!!!

Lord Helmet
04-24-2009, 11:33 AM
great commentary.

OKCMallen
04-24-2009, 11:46 AM
Ed! Ed! Ed!

BDP
04-24-2009, 11:52 AM
The really sad part is that it's not some way off base knee-jerk reaction stemming from a political predisposition. It's a pretty sound and level headed assessment of what our "conservative" legislature is pushing by a publication that is hard to classify as anything, but conservative.

I commend the company for calling out the fringes within their own political movemnet. Honestly, before we get any rational solutions in this state or country, their needs to be more of that from both sides.

HSC-Sooner
04-24-2009, 12:34 PM
I commend Ed Kelley for voicing his viewpoint in a non-emotional manner.

zrfdude
04-24-2009, 03:36 PM
I thought that was amazing...

Then I read the comments; I find them both funny and terrifying.

CCOKC
04-24-2009, 04:27 PM
Wow, I never thought I would live to see the day the editor of the DOK would come out so publicly for this issue as well as against the 10 Commandment Statue, the english only bill as well as for the rights of immigrants. All I can say is wow (in a good way). I too read the comments and everyday I regret it. I guess it is like watching a train wreck.

Midtowner
04-24-2009, 04:40 PM
Wow, I never thought I would live to see the day the editor of the DOK would come out so publicly for this issue as well as against the 10 Commandment Statue, the english only bill as well as for the rights of immigrants. All I can say is wow (in a good way). I too read the comments and everyday I regret it. I guess it is like watching a train wreck.

I'm going to shake his hand the next time I see him.

-- not that his message will deter the Republican party in any way, shape or form. They seem hell bent on doing whatever they please, the public be damned.

bornhere
04-24-2009, 05:04 PM
Well, good for Ed Kelley, etc., etc., but he's criticizing a creature that is largely of his own newspaper's making.

dismayed
04-24-2009, 06:03 PM
Great editorial. I often feel like The Oklahoman, when it doesn't agree with a conservative or their agenda, will just ignore that issue instead of writing something about it. For example, it still cracks me up to no end that the paper didn't endorse anyone for governor last go-around when Istook was running against Henry -- I guess they just couldn't bring themselves to flat-out endorse a Dem. even though they didn't want Istook in office. It is very refreshing to see that they are willing to tell it like it is now, regardless of who is writing up the decisions. I'd call that integrity. Hope there's more to come.

Karried
04-24-2009, 09:02 PM
Thank YOU ED !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

soonerguru
04-24-2009, 09:27 PM
I'm quite sure the Oklahoman endorsed Brad Henry. I know for sure they endorsed Edmondson and Scott Meacham.

Doug Loudenback
04-25-2009, 10:34 AM
I really wasn't paying any attention to what was going on until after it was done. Then, yesterday afternoon, I dropped in Steve's OKC Central (http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral) blog and saw ... Kelley's video editorial was magnificent ... I've been underestimating him, maybe even the Oklahoman.

My 2 cents (several dollars worth) about the matter, the song music & lyrics, are here: The devil made me do it: Doug Dawgz Blog: Do You Realize (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2009/04/do-you-realize.html)

dismayed
04-25-2009, 10:46 AM
I'm quite sure the Oklahoman endorsed Brad Henry. I know for sure they endorsed Edmondson and Scott Meacham.

Nope. They endorsed just about every other position, but had no official stance on Governor:

http://newsok.com/article/2960047/

bkm645
04-25-2009, 12:11 PM
Who cares if we have a state rock song? What is wrong with only having one song?

On the English only bill, this does not really affect the Native Americans. How much official state business is conducted Cherokee? However, as is stated in Kelly's own paper from Thursday:

The bill would not limit the use, study or encouragement of American Indian languages.
Kelly's argument is pointless in regards to the English only bill. The only purpose of this bill is to stop the use of state funds accommodating immigrants unwilling to learn the common language. When my ancestors came from Europe, they learned English.

In regards to the 10 Commandment monuments, the 10 Commandments and the Bible are the foundation of old English law. Like it or not, Judeo-Christian values are the foundation for western law. Even if someone is of another religion, they still should understand the basis of law.

circuitboard
04-25-2009, 03:04 PM
Who cares if we have a state rock song? What is wrong with only having one song?

On the English only bill, this does not really affect the Native Americans. How much official state business is conducted Cherokee? However, as is stated in Kelly's own paper from Thursday:

Kelly's argument is pointless in regards to the English only bill. The only purpose of this bill is to stop the use of state funds accommodating immigrants unwilling to learn the common language. When my ancestors came from Europe, they learned English.

In regards to the 10 Commandment monuments, the 10 Commandments and the Bible are the foundation of old English law. Like it or not, Judeo-Christian values are the foundation for western law. Even if someone is of another religion, they still should understand the basis of law.

Wow. You can always count on people like you to come out and verify that Oklahoma still has issues of tolerance.

dismayed
04-25-2009, 05:17 PM
In regards to the 10 Commandment monuments, the 10 Commandments and the Bible are the foundation of old English law. Like it or not, Judeo-Christian values are the foundation for western law. Even if someone is of another religion, they still should understand the basis of law.

My understanding of the basis of this law is that the US Supreme Court has found time and time again that it depends on the intent of the monument. If you put up a bunch of monuments on the grounds of the judicial branch that commemorate Hammurabi, the Bible, and English Law then that is okay. If you put up a monument that's only purpose is clearly related to putting one specific religion forward, then that is not okay. By the bill's authors own words in the media he has already provided enough evidence of this and it is just going to be a field day in the court house.

Back to the Lips, I see that The Oklahoman now has a poll going on whether or not "Do You Realize" should be the state song. Results as of 4/25:

Yes 3,425 15%
No 19,201 85%

Comments would indicate it is mostly about the band's shirt. Sometimes I really can't stand this state.

bornhere
04-25-2009, 05:32 PM
If you put that same poll in the Gazette it would probably produce the opposite result.

Steve
04-25-2009, 06:24 PM
Dismayed, a poll also showed a sudden surge of 27,000 hitting my blog when I asked whether I should join twitter (there was no such surge).

GWB
04-25-2009, 06:57 PM
My understanding of the basis of this law is that the US Supreme Court has found time and time again that it depends on the intent of the monument. If you put up a bunch of monuments on the grounds of the judicial branch that commemorate Hammurabi, the Bible, and English Law then that is okay. If you put up a monument that's only purpose is clearly related to putting one specific religion forward, then that is not okay. By the bill's authors own words in the media he has already provided enough evidence of this and it is just going to be a field day in the court house.

Back to the Lips, I see that The Oklahoman now has a poll going on whether or not "Do You Realize" should be the state song. Results as of 4/25:

Yes 3,425 15%
No 19,201 85%

Comments would indicate it is mostly about the band's shirt. Sometimes I really can't stand this state.

You may be dismissed.

bkm645
04-25-2009, 07:49 PM
Wow. You can always count on people like you to come out and verify that Oklahoma still has issues of tolerance.

How am I intolerant? I never said that Mexicans can't speak spanish at home. There is just no reason to spend state dollars on making everything bi-lingual. The majority of the people in this state speak English as their primary language, so since we call this a "democracy" we should follow the majority.

As for the 10 Commandments, what basis do you think western law is based? As an example, what is some people did not like George Washington? Should we take down the Washington Memorial in DC? Of course not! George Washington was still the first president of the US, no matter what you think of him. The same goes for the 10 Commandments, it is the basis of law.

Doug Loudenback
04-25-2009, 08:14 PM
The same goes for the 10 Commandments, it is the basis of law.
Are you sure you want to hang your hat on that statement, bkm? Lets have a look (at the Exodus version):


I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; Do not have any other gods before me.

You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. For six days you shall labour and do all your work. But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it.

Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

You shall not kill

You shall not commit adultery.

You shall not steal.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

Rather than totally hijack this thread, I'll just briefly comment that #s 1 through 4 are wholly appropriate for a church member to identify with, even enforce them among their membership to the full extent of the law, should that be how the church wants to be. But, the church has no business implicitly or explicitly telling others who are not members that have an obligation to abide the same commandments, whether loosely or strictly construed.

The rest are simply common sense. I have a hunch that it wasn't OK to covet your neighbor's wife, or slave, before God marked his finger on a stone saying so. Interestingly it seems that God must have condoned slavery at the time.

As for me, I think that Ed Kelley's remarks, all of them, were right on target.

Karried
04-25-2009, 09:18 PM
Coyne also praised Gov. Brad Henry (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Brad+Henry&CATEGORY=PERSON) as "very cool” for stepping in and announcing he would issue an executive order to declare "Do You Realize??” the state rock song.


What is this about???

Doug Loudenback
04-25-2009, 09:57 PM
What is this about???
After the House vote, the governor established by executive order the song as the state's rock song.

Karried
04-25-2009, 10:32 PM
That's what I thought! Woot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's just the principle of the thing.. yay!

soonerguru
04-25-2009, 11:21 PM
There were some entertaining T-shirts on display at the Norman Music Festival today. The favored one had a hammer and sickle with the word "mother--ker" at the bottom.

bkm645
04-26-2009, 08:04 AM
Are you sure you want to hang your hat on that statement, bkm? Lets have a look (at the Exodus version):


I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; Do not have any other gods before me.

You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. For six days you shall labour and do all your work. But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it.

Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

You shall not kill

You shall not commit adultery.

You shall not steal.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

Rather than totally hijack this thread, I'll just briefly comment that #s 1 through 4 are wholly appropriate for a church member to identify with, even enforce them among their membership to the full extent of the law, should that be how the church wants to be. But, the church has no business implicitly or explicitly telling others who are not members that have an obligation to abide the same commandments, whether loosely or strictly construed.

The rest are simply common sense. I have a hunch that it wasn't OK to covet your neighbor's wife, or slave, before God marked his finger on a stone saying so. Interestingly it seems that God must have condoned slavery at the time.

As for me, I think that Ed Kelley's remarks, all of them, were right on target.

I said that the 10 Commandments were the basis of western law. The western law started with the English. These commandments and the New Testament were the basis for the laws. Yes, not all of them are used today, but why do you think we have the 1st Amendment? The first 3 commandments were being used to force people into the English state church. The 4th commandment is still in use today, can you buy a car today?

Doug, you say the remaining commandments are common sense, but are you sure about that? What about tribes that have never been exposed to the western world? The tribes that are cannibalistic certainly do not understand "do not kill". The reason the last commandments are common sense to us is because we were raised in the western world where the Bible was the basis for our society.

BTW, if I were a state legislator I would have not voted on the state rock song or the 10 commandment monument because neither is really solving any problems in the state. Let's work on balancing the budget then cutting taxes.

Karried
04-26-2009, 08:42 AM
In nearly every other state (as far as I know) you can buy a car on Sunday.

I've never seen anything like it, when we first moved here ..... no tattoos, stores & car lots closed on Sundays, no alcohol sales ...

I absolutely couldn't believe it. I still can't actually.

soonerguru
04-26-2009, 09:51 AM
karried,

People who have lived here their whole life and never traveled outside the state don't understand the shock many people experience when moving here. It's hard to have a reasonable discussion about changing things, because they see no need for change, like it just the way it is, and if you suggest there are things you don't like, they just tell you to leave.

Doug Loudenback
04-26-2009, 10:01 AM
I said that the 10 Commandments were the basis of western law. The western law started with the English. These commandments and the New Testament were the basis for the laws. Yes, not all of them are used today, but why do you think we have the 1st Amendment? The first 3 commandments were being used to force people into the English state church. The 4th commandment is still in use today, can you buy a car today?

Doug, you say the remaining commandments are common sense, but are you sure about that? What about tribes that have never been exposed to the western world? The tribes that are cannibalistic certainly do not understand "do not kill". The reason the last commandments are common sense to us is because we were raised in the western world where the Bible was the basis for our society.

BTW, if I were a state legislator I would have not voted on the state rock song or the 10 commandment monument because neither is really solving any problems in the state. Let's work on balancing the budget then cutting taxes.
I'd love to respond more completely but we should probably do it out back behind the shed ... er... in the politics forum or some such place. Sounds like fun. I'd like to discuss with you the influence of the English (or Christianity, for that matter) on, say, the Tibetan monks and/or about the characteristics of my Native American wife's ancestors before the English (and the French and the Spanish) arrived ... you know ... the Indians who got lied to, their land taken away, massacred and deliberately infected with small pox, etc., way back when -- not to mention the ones who more recently were duped out of their oil rights by the Oklahoma white men who doubtless would have put up a ten commandment monument (but with asterisks by #s 6, 8 & 10)
...
...
...
* United States of America version
** Modified as needed for the Oklahoma frontier
*** But we'll darned well show our piety and keep the Sabbath holy
**** So will you
***** Wal Marts are holy

:omg:

PennyQuilts
04-26-2009, 10:16 AM
In nearly every other state (as far as I know) you can buy a car on Sunday.

I've never seen anything like it, when we first moved here ..... no tattoos, stores & car lots closed on Sundays, no alcohol sales ...

I absolutely couldn't believe it. I still can't actually.

Well... the world won't end if people can't buy a car or alcohol on Sunday, or get a tattoo. Aren't there more significant things to trash Oklahoma about? There are plenty of things that cause Okies to drop their jaws when they go elsewhere. Who is to say what is correct and what isn't? This is a great big country. I don't think you could hold this country together if there wasn't room for local customs and values. A country this size is bound to have different regional values, industry, etc. Hell, countries as small as many of our states have civil wars over religious differences. Instead of bitching about things this trivial, the way I see it our form of government allows a very large country to accomodate regional differences and that allows it to bend and not break.

Get your noses out of the air.

HSC-Sooner
04-26-2009, 10:45 AM
Well... the world won't end if people can't buy a car or alcohol on Sunday, or get a tattoo. Aren't there more significant things to trash Oklahoma about? There are plenty of things that cause Okies to drop their jaws when they go elsewhere. Who is to say what is correct and what isn't? This is a great big country. I don't think you could hold this country together if there wasn't room for local customs and values. A country this size is bound to have different regional values, industry, etc. Hell, countries as small as many of our states have civil wars over religious differences. Instead of bitching about things this trivial, the way I see it our form of government allows a very large country to accomodate regional differences and that allows it to bend and not break.

Get your noses out of the air.

Differences are fine. However, this state tend to rely too heavily on the Bible for governance compared to the rest of this union. Many of these laws and resolutions, such as the 10 commandments and the teaching of creationism, are bound to be struck down by the federal supreme court. It's just a huge waste of time for our legislators to be thumping their chest and proclaim their religion.

onthestrip
04-26-2009, 11:00 AM
In regards to the 10 Commandment monuments, the 10 Commandments and the Bible are the foundation of old English law. Like it or not, Judeo-Christian values are the foundation for western law. Even if someone is of another religion, they still should understand the basis of law.

The basis of law? Im not sure of that because only 3 of them are actually laws. And we dont need a commandment tablet to know that killing and stealing are wrong. Those things are inherrently wrong, any intelligent society knows that killing and stealing is wrong. The other just has to do with our judicial system (bearing false witness). You think the people who drafted the perjury laws were thinking about the 10 commandments? Im guessing they were just trying to make the judicial system fair and efficient. I hardly see how it is the basis of our law. Maybe if they want to erect a monument for the commandments, it only needs to have these 3 engraved on it because the other 7 have nothing to do with our law.

Karried
04-26-2009, 11:00 AM
Well... the world won't end if people can't buy a car or alcohol on Sunday, or get a tattoo. Aren't there more significant things to trash Oklahoma about? There are plenty of things that cause Okies to drop their jaws when they go elsewhere. Who is to say what is correct and what isn't? This is a great big country. I don't think you could hold this country together if there wasn't room for local customs and values. A country this size is bound to have different regional values, industry, etc. Hell, countries as small as many of our states have civil wars over religious differences. Instead of bitching about things this trivial, the way I see it our form of government allows a very large country to accomodate regional differences and that allows it to bend and not break.

Get your noses out of the air.

Excuse me?? No one is bitching about anything but if we are, that's fine too .... I was replying to the thread above and no one is trashing Oklahoma.

It's not the issue of wanting to do anything on Sunday .. it's the premise of moral control and the antiquated laws behind it.

It's the idea that others think they have to dictate what we all do here or we'll all fall into drunken stupors, go get tattoos and go buy a car we can't afford. They want us in church. It's embarrassing and ridiculous.

Luckily, tattoos are no longer illegal.. we were the last state to do so...

PennyQuilts
04-26-2009, 12:08 PM
Excuse me?? No one is bitching about anything but if we are, that's fine too .... I was replying to the thread above and no one is trashing Oklahoma.

It's not the issue of wanting to do anything on Sunday .. it's the premise of moral control and the antiquated laws behind it.

It's the idea that others think they have to dictate what we all do here or we'll all fall into drunken stupors, go get tattoos and go buy a car we can't afford. They want us in church. It's embarrassing and ridiculous.

Luckily, tattoos are no longer illegal.. we were the last state to do so...

As soon as I posted that I realized it sounded like an attack on you and for that I am sorry. I guess what irks me is that the complaint is rarely about a policy or law, rather, it is about "backwards Oklahoma." And it is not just you.

Oklahoma is going to change with the population - that is inevitable. It irks me that people, especially people whose roots aren't here, attack the state all the time. There is not a state in the union who wasn't roughly or similarily in the place Oklahoma is, right now, at least compared to where they are, "today." To me, there is nothing wrong with wanting changes but so many people can't seem to say "this is a better or a more sensible way." Instead, they attack the state, its traditions, the people who still hold to those traditions. It is just ugly. Instead of trying to pursuade or educate, a lot of people simply insult and attack and compare Oklahoma unfavorably to states where we wouldn't want to live if you paid us millions a year. You (the generic you) can't attack Oklahoma's traditions using negative adjectives, sarcasm and hostility, without running the risk of attacking people who accept those traditions. And the traditions of their parents and grandparents. You might just as well attack them, personally. And attacking your neighbors usually does nothing but slow down progress and undermine community spirit.

And I disagree with the whole church vs. tattoo argument. There was a time when I would have agreed with you but experience has convinced me that churchers are irritating but church goers tend to be good people to have the trenches. Tattoos are nothing. They are frivolous or worse than frivolous. If I see one more paunchy middle aged woman with a tattoo that she thinks makes her look sexy I think I will scream. Sometimes I think people have completely lost the ability to look inward and see the truth about their looks, character and potential. To even discuss the value of getting a tattoo in the same paragraph with the value of going to church (and have church lose) is mind boggling.

I don't disagree that the laws against tattooing were probably morality based and the idea that it was a health problem irritates me because it is dishonest. All the same, The most gorgeous tattoo is, pure and simple, a self indulgent painting of a cartoon on your flesh. I simply can't get too excited about the right to get one but I know they are trendy, these days, so a lot of people would get upset. In my world, getting passionate about the right to have a tattoo strikes me as a waste of passion but that is just me. I suspect it is more the idea that the state would decide if you can get one and I "get" why that is offensive. First amendment and all that.

And if I sound belligerant, and I suppose I do, we've got a trend going where young girls get the names or initials of older boyfriends tattooed on their breast. I'm talking 12 year olds. I don't know how the parlors are getting away with it but I have quite a few of these. And I just got a fair skinned, natural blond 13 year old who scars easily who had "Lester" tattooed on her neck in letters two inches tall. So tattoos are on my personal list as symptomatic of a dysfunctional society. I guess that is bleeding into my response. I guess it is best to get back to topic. Sorry for the rant.

Midtowner
04-26-2009, 01:49 PM
I said that the 10 Commandments were the basis of western law.

Bud, you're lecturing one of the more notable legal scholars/practitioners in the OKC metro area about the basis of English law. And for what it's worth, you're not exactly on target.

For what it's worth, ecclesiastical law and the common law developed in completely different veins. The later had nothing to do with the Bible unless you think we need a Bible to tell us it's bad juju to kill and steal and lie.

I mean... if you want to say that since the King, circa 1200, derived his power from God and since the King's word was equivalent to God's word in his Kingdom and that the King set up the courts of law and equity, then maybe... but that's *really* stretching things.

To tell you the truth, there are probably more pagan artifacts to be found in the common law, especially in property. Things like livery of seisin (look it up) have their basis in pagan tradition rather than Christian tradition. Our modern property law is derived from those old ceremonies rather than from anything in the Bible.

In other areas of the law, the old system of Writs pretty much has zero to do with the Bible. Were there some Christian influences? Sure. But to say that Judeo Christian principles is what the law is "based" upon misses the mark. The law is largely similar the world over without a shred of Christian principle. It would probably be more accurate to simply say that the law and religion developed alongside one another rather than saying that one is based upon the other.

Karried
04-26-2009, 01:51 PM
But it's not just about the actual tattoos .. no more than buying a car on Sunday. It's about the religious ultra conservative, uber convicted folks that think their way is the only way.

For me, the issue is acceptance and keeping an open mind. The problem I have is that a few older gentleman were offended by the Lips wearing a shirt they didn't like, so they decided to punish the entire band and vote against the song.

It's that mentality that drives me crazy. Do I want a free for all, anything goes place to raise my children? No, but I don't want someone dictating to me what is right and wrong based on their religious beliefs. If I wanted that, I'd be wearing a veil over my face and be covered head to toe.

PennyQuilts
04-26-2009, 02:15 PM
It's that mentality that drives me crazy. Do I want a free for all, anything goes place to raise my children? No, but I don't want someone dictating to me what is right and wrong based on their religious beliefs. If I wanted that, I'd be wearing a veil over my face and be covered head to toe.

I understand where you are coming from.

Karried
04-26-2009, 02:26 PM
Thanks, and I understand where you are coming from too and can relate to what you are saying ....

Now, I need a glass of wine.. oh wait, I can't go get any. lol

Doug Loudenback
04-26-2009, 02:54 PM
If I wanted that, I'd be wearing a veil over my face and be covered head to toe.
Please, God, NO! :yourock: An aged infidel needs his eye candy.

PennyQuilts
04-26-2009, 04:28 PM
Thanks, and I understand where you are coming from too and can relate to what you are saying ....

Now, I need a glass of wine.. oh wait, I can't go get any. lol

Oklahoma law teaches you to plan ahead! I have to laugh, I always bought alcohol, in advance, even though you can get it here. Old habits die hard.

jbrown84
04-26-2009, 04:38 PM
I'm quite sure the Oklahoman endorsed Brad Henry. I know for sure they endorsed Edmondson and Scott Meacham.

And Jim Roth.


Who cares if we have a state rock song? What is wrong with only having one song?

In regards to the 10 Commandment monuments, the 10 Commandments and the Bible are the foundation of old English law. Like it or not, Judeo-Christian values are the foundation for western law. Even if someone is of another religion, they still should understand the basis of law.


So it's important to have a ten-commandments monument (just because it's a "foundation") but a state rock song is a waste of time?

Steve
04-26-2009, 04:42 PM
Maybe it's time to drop old cliches and stereotypes and grudges and give The Oklahoman another chance. Yes, it's my employer, but I realize it has its weak points. But I'll argue it's not as bad as some say and is more diverse in coverage and viewpoints than it once was. Look at today's front page. It's one I'm very proud of, even though I had nothing to do with it. Ron Jackson had an incredible eye-opening piece on the Mexican drug cartels and their presence in Oklahoma.
Ron, by the way, is a great talent and I'm very proud that he and I work for the same news organization.

jbrown84
04-26-2009, 04:55 PM
Maybe it's time to drop old cliches and stereotypes and grudges and give The Oklahoman another chance.

Well said.

Doug Loudenback
04-26-2009, 05:02 PM
I just hope that Karrie doesn't start wearing a veil over her face and be covered head to toe.

As for what you said, Steve, I've already said in my blog and here that maybe it was time for me to reassess the Oklahoman ... Kelley's piece was magnificent. I don't know if it made the print version but I hope that it did. Does he need some video presentation consultants? Yes. Anyone but Berry Trammel. Could his content have been any better? No. Was that a surprise to me? Yes, I was floored.

I look forward to similar experiences occurring again and soon.

Karried
04-26-2009, 05:06 PM
oh Lordy Doug, lol.. you make me smile, you always make me feel so great! Thank you!

PennyQuilts
04-26-2009, 05:10 PM
I just hope that Karrie doesn't start wearing a veil over her face and be covered head to toe.

Husband says he always gets the heebie jeebies when he is standing next to people cloaked head to toe in a veil - like at the grocery store. He says they always look like the grim reaper.

kevinpate
04-26-2009, 09:35 PM
As for Kelly's editorial, once you're so far right even the Oklahoman feels a need to slap you on the nose, you're way way way to the right

okcpulse
04-27-2009, 06:37 AM
It's not the issue of wanting to do anything on Sunday .. it's the premise of moral control and the antiquated laws behind it.

It's the idea that others think they have to dictate what we all do here or we'll all fall into drunken stupors, go get tattoos and go buy a car we can't afford. They want us in church. It's embarrassing and ridiculous.



That is exactly my problem with conservative thinking. Conservatives think they are on God's speed dial.

The sabbath say can be practiced, but it doesn't need to be legislated. I personally think it's healthy to rest your body one day a week. But I don't need some stuffy old bag in the legislature deciding what's good for me.

okcpulse
04-27-2009, 06:42 AM
Thanks, and I understand where you are coming from too and can relate to what you are saying ....

Now, I need a glass of wine.. oh wait, I can't go get any. lol

Rest assured, Karried. ;)

Legalize casinos... done.

Legalize lottery... done.

Legalize tattoos... done.

Legalize wine sales in supermarkets and cold strong beer... in progress.

It's only a matter of time, Karrie. I'm glad your in Oklahoma to witness the biggest changes in state history. Never be discouraged by the has-beens that are still trying to cling on to the old Oklahoma as you have seen. Once the transition is done, their time will have passed.

BoulderSooner
04-27-2009, 07:12 AM
Wow. You can always count on people like you to come out and verify that Oklahoma still has issues of tolerance.

you need to find a Webster and look up the definition of tolerance

Lord Helmet
04-27-2009, 09:34 AM
Rest assured, Karried. ;)

Legalize casinos... done.

Legalize lottery... done.

Legalize tattoos... done.

Legalize wine sales in supermarkets and cold strong beer... in progress.

It's only a matter of time, Karrie. I'm glad your in Oklahoma to witness the biggest changes in state history. Never be discouraged by the has-beens that are still trying to cling on to the old Oklahoma as you have seen. Once the transition is done, their time will have passed.


This is true. We've made more progress here in the last 8-10 years than the two decades before it. It's really amazing. One thing I've learned is that progress happens...the only variable is how quickly.

Plus it's fun to see the real far right nutjobs absolutly melt down over silly issues like involving beer, tatoos or the like.

circuitboard
04-27-2009, 09:42 AM
you need to find a Webster and look up the definition of tolerance

You need to stop being a troll, and leave me alone. That would be great! Thanks! =)

PennyQuilts
04-27-2009, 10:09 AM
Conservatives think they are on God's speed dial.

I don't think that. Conservatives are a pretty broad group - not that many don't try to define them, narrowly. Don't assume everyone is a religious conservative. Certainly many are and sometimes that is tedious, granted. However, frequently, religion provides social controls and assistance to the needy and society benefits as a result. Do you really want to throw out religion? Or just the Christian religion? Or just the evangelicals? Attacking the Christians based on the habits of some strikes me as absolutely no different than attacking any religion based on the behavior of some.

Would you feel okay about lumping all Muslims into the terrorists' camp? No, of course not. So why do that with Christians (if that is what you are doing?). Let's try to practice some tolerance and basic fairness, here. Or at least be a bit more precise before you attack a whole group.

OKCMallen
04-27-2009, 10:22 AM
I don't think that. Conservatives are a pretty broad group - not that many don't try to define them, narrowly. Don't assume everyone is a religious conservative. Certainly many are and sometimes that is tedious, granted. However, frequently, religion provides social controls and assistance to the needy and society benefits as a result. Do you really want to throw out religion? Or just the Christian religion? Or just the evangelicals? Attacking the Christians based on the habits of some strikes me as absolutely no different than attacking any religion based on the behavior of some.

Would you feel okay about lumping all Muslims into the terrorists' camp? No, of course not. So why do that with Christians (if that is what you are doing?). Let's try to practice some tolerance and basic fairness, here. Or at least be a bit more precise before you attack a whole group.

No one said anything about throwing religion out...I'd just like to throw it out of legislating. Let people make their OWN religious choices.

okcpulse
04-27-2009, 10:53 AM
I don't think that. Conservatives are a pretty broad group - not that many don't try to define them, narrowly. Don't assume everyone is a religious conservative. Certainly many are and sometimes that is tedious, granted. However, frequently, religion provides social controls and assistance to the needy and society benefits as a result. Do you really want to throw out religion? Or just the Christian religion? Or just the evangelicals? Attacking the Christians based on the habits of some strikes me as absolutely no different than attacking any religion based on the behavior of some.

Would you feel okay about lumping all Muslims into the terrorists' camp? No, of course not. So why do that with Christians (if that is what you are doing?). Let's try to practice some tolerance and basic fairness, here. Or at least be a bit more precise before you attack a whole group.

My apologies, East Coast Okie. That remark certainly wasn't my intention. I agree that Christian doesn't always mean conservative.

The people I am after are lawmakers who claim to be Christian but are extremists in their own right. Perhaps I should have worded that way. Better yet, I should have said there are people who think they are on God's speed dial. Hypocrites, if you will.

Good, down to earth Christians don't deserve the stereotype, so I will emphasize that. Much in the same way that people in environmental interest groups somehow think they have access to planet Earth's control panel.

soonerguru
04-27-2009, 11:00 AM
I don't think that. Conservatives are a pretty broad group - not that many don't try to define them, narrowly. Don't assume everyone is a religious conservative. Certainly many are and sometimes that is tedious, granted. However, frequently, religion provides social controls and assistance to the needy and society benefits as a result. Do you really want to throw out religion? Or just the Christian religion? Or just the evangelicals? Attacking the Christians based on the habits of some strikes me as absolutely no different than attacking any religion based on the behavior of some.

Would you feel okay about lumping all Muslims into the terrorists' camp? No, of course not. So why do that with Christians (if that is what you are doing?). Let's try to practice some tolerance and basic fairness, here. Or at least be a bit more precise before you attack a whole group.


I agree with most of what you say. However, let's be real. The term "conservative" has been hijacked to mean Religious Right. Moderates in the party have been pushed aside, and will continue to be. The right wing of the party dominates in Oklahoma and on the national level at this point.

No one is suggesting that Christians are bad. We have freedom of religion in this country and I will defend the right of anyone to worship however they please. That's what it means to be an American.

However, the infusion of Christian Taliban into our politics is poisonous, toxic and extremely annoying.

People only object to the Christian Right -- or any religion -- forcing nonbelievers and/or non-adherents to conform to their narrow view of the universe.