On top of this, Bert Belanger has some projects in the works in this area.


http://newsok.com/former-oklahoma-city-bakery-could-make-bread-again/article/3363765?custom_click=lead_story_title


Nice to see him going more public about this project on the boards.


Most of the boarded-up buildings along Broadway Drive at NW 11 were bought and cleared by an investment group led by Bert Belanger. He said "serious talks” are under way with a developer who wants to build 250 to 300 apartments on the site, but only if NW 11 is closed (an application to the city is under way) and plans are successful to create a railroad quiet zone through the area. The Neighbors family, which owns Java Dave’s, has Belanger working with them to convert their old brick warehouses into housing. Meanwhile, Steve Mason is continuing his creation of a downtown retail oasis along NW 9 just east of Broadway.

......

That's the story I linked to above.......

What's a "railroad quiet zone"?

What's a "railroad quiet zone"?

No horns, just crossarms.

BDP: What's a "railroad quiet zone"?


http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-area-talk/15339-quiet-zones.html

What's a "railroad quiet zone"?

All the trains, sans the noise pains

Thanks Metro for just posting a clip of the story and providing a link. Everybody, regardless of what agreement may be in place between The Oklahoman and OKC Talk, I'd rather see these stories read in full at NewsOK and then, yes, have the discussions, debates, etc, take place here. It's really no different than blogger etiquite - bloggers know to do just do a quote or teaser to another blogger's writing and then link to it.
You see this done regularly at BatesLine (http://www.batesline.com) and dustbury.com (http://www.dustbury.com). So what Metro has done is to show me the same courtesy - which is very, very kind of him and I really appreciate it.
This is not a slam at OKCTalk - I think's a great site and will continue to promote it when appropriate on my blog and in my columns. I think Pete has done a wonderful job with this site. Now, let's respect the thread topic and return to the ne downtown discussion.
-Steve

Steve, the only problem I have on that is that Newsok's website crashes a lot on me. No matter if I'm using my computer from work, home, or my cell phone, it is not a happy site. I'm reluctant to click on any links that lead to it because it can freeze up the whole computer and force me to restart.

So selfishly, I'd prefer if people just posted the whole article. :)

Also Steve, the links are frequently broken, in that as a thread goes on and the age of the article ages, it may no longer be available.

But I understand your concern and also want to support the Oklahoman.

...one more thought...what Metro posted had very little to do with the subject of the story, which was the former Bond Bakery building at 5 NE 12.

Just based on what Metro posted, I would not have clicked on the link or seen the real story...

This is all part of the larger "Core to Whores" project. Downtown to NW 23rd.

Weird. I've never had problems with newsok crashing.

The Bond Bakery building is great! It really should be residential.

This is all part of the larger "Core to Whores" project. Downtown to NW 23rd.

:tiphat:

In regards to the Bond Bakery building, when I looked at the County Assessor, it shows 46,784 square feet of space and the DOK article shows 67,000. Are the buildings north of the building included in this or not? That is 20,000 difference.

Also, it shows 4,920 sq ft in the third floor, 17,160 on the second and 23,460 on the first. Depending on the layout of the building, I could see apartments on the third and half of the second and the rest of it offices. Thoughts?

I think you're probably on target. Not sure why the assessor has a different figure from the owners. I think the sale price calculates out to $20 a square foot, which isn't too bad considering it has no asbestos, new electrical and security systems, and is basically a shell with pretty cool architecture and has potential for an underground garage. Question is, will the current economy kill its chances?

Steve, the article says "the penthouse areas could be turned into patios for housing or offices on the upper floors with stunning views of downtown." What do you see as the best situation for this building? With Bert wanting to develop NW 11th as 250 to 300 apartments, do you think this would be best used for office space?

Warren, I'm not sure. The market is so very scatterbrained right now. Common sense deals that would have happened in a snap a year ago are in a jam. The OKC metro economy is really not doing badly at all, but the national storm is threatening things right now. One has to wonder however, what will be the impact of stimulis money coming in for highways and bridges while Devon starts work on its tower (yes, it's still happening).
Then there other issues. Bert's apartment project probably could be done even in this bad economy - but my sense of the city after talking to various folks is there is more urgency on Core to Shore and the central park than efforts to create a railroad quiet zone. Why, I don't know... seems like there are more immediate economic developments pending the quiet zone.

I'm not sure how you could create a 'quiet zone' for the railroad in that area, with grade crossings every block from 13th down to at least 6th; I think it's a Federal requirement for the trains to sound horns when approaching a grade crossing.

Being so close to the tracks, I'd think that building would be more likely redeveloped as an office space than residential; and with the glut of office space across the city now, I'd be surprised if they went that route.

Nope still will be a quiet zone if city gets it's act together, please read the thread on the quiet zone

Nope still will be a quiet zone if city gets it's act together, please read the thread on the quiet zone

I'm curious what you think the City is doing regarding this... City Council approved going forward and staff has negotiated changes with BNSF. Now it's just Federal and BNSF timing to take care, mainly...

I'm curious what you think the City is doing regarding this... City Council approved going forward and staff has negotiated changes with BNSF. Now it's just Federal and BNSF timing to take care, mainly...

city still has to decide how to fund the upgrades .. something like 20+mil

Can't figure why they'd want Neighbor's roasting facility out. Seriously, who wouldn't want to live/work/play with the aroma of roasting coffee beans in the air?

city still has to decide how to fund the upgrades .. something like 20+mil

$20 million? Where in the world did you get that figure from? Sources I have say it's between $3 million and $6 million

... think the sale price calculates out to $20 a square foot, which isn't too bad considering it has no asbestos, new electrical and security systems, and is basically a shell with pretty cool architecture and has potential for an underground garage. ...

That's not shabby, not shabby at all. Oh, if only I could pick lotto numbers.

$20 million? Where in the world did you get that figure from? Sources I have say it's between $3 million and $6 million

Steve's sources are spot-on, from what I hear...

Steve's sources are spot-on, from what I hear...

And what are your sources for that? :)

And what are your sources for that? :)

Me, myself, and I. :rolleyes:

I think this is the development Steve is hinting at in yesterday's blog post at:

Good News … and Bad News | OKC Central (http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2010/05/24/good-news-and-bad-news/#comment-9298)

Source on cost estimate for quiet zone: people who have engineering and accounting degrees.

Here's the article Steve has written. So, when you hear people complaining about tax credits for "the rich", sometimes "the rich" do things that benefit all of us.:

Developers statewide could find themselves defaulting on renovations of historic properties under a proposed two-year moratorium on tax credits awaiting Gov. Brad Henry’s signature.

Big downtown deals may die if state historic tax...

05/25/2010 A Kansas City developer with a track record for renovating historic buildings and turning them into housing is in talks to buy and renovate downtown’s... And other projects — such as Muskogee’s landmark Manhattan Building, which marks its centennial next year — may never get started if the proposal becomes law.

Read more: NewsOK (http://www.newsok.com/moratorium-to-ax-oklahoma-projects/article/3463643?custom_click=lead_story_title#ixzz0oxCAdDx T)

If I were a businessperson receiving a subsidy I would make a similar noise when said subsidy was on the chopping block.

Here's an additional article by Steve on the subject:

The Business Archives Building, once upon a time home to the Bond Bakery, looms over Interstate 235 and Automobile Alley as a reminder that downtown is far from finished in its resurgence from the gloomy days of the 1980s. Developers warned Monday a two-year moratorium on state historic tax credits awaiting signing by Gov. Brad Henry could stop redevelopment of historic...
The building’s bricked-in windows show only a glimpse of the possibilities ahead for the area bounded by Broadway, NW 13, NW 8 and the highway.

Read more: http://www.newsok.com/stalled-tax-incentives-may-end-resurgence/article/3463642?custom_click=columnist#ixzz0p0lJ5XlD

It would be a devastating loss to the state if we put the moratorium on the tax rebates. Keep in mind that because they guarantee the tax rebates in advance, a two year moratorium starting now only affects projects, for the most part, already under construction. This would bankrupt developers by taking away a revenue stream they were counting on in order to follow their passion for historic rehabilitation and those developers would be wise to just move to another state and never come back to Oklahoma.

Or they would be wise to lawyer up and file a major lawsuit against the state.

Or they would be wise to lawyer up and file a major lawsuit against the state.

On what legal basis?

You might have a little problem with sovereign immunity/legislative immunity here.

Mid, that's true but that has not stopped lawsuits from revoking nearly every attempted instance of abortion reform in this state not to mention this exact same issue in Kansas, where they attempted to revoke the historic bldg tax credits..

There's still this pesky larger issue of rights as guaranteed by the federal and state constitution, as well as contract law, which will likely be the deciding factor in any lawsuit. Fact of the matter is that the state leg is trying to change the rules of the game in the middle of the game despite these tax credits already being guaranteed. Because it is a two year moratorium, and historic rehabilitation projects take 2-4 to be completed, the ONLY tax credits being affected by this moratorium are basically ones that have already been guaranteed.

Governor Henry's office has, time after time, told the legislature to stop wasting taxpayer resources for extended sessions as well as lawsuits when they pass idiotic legislation. Henry's office is right, yet nobody is listening apparently.

Mid, that's true but that has not stopped lawsuits from revoking nearly every attempted instance of abortion reform in this state not to mention this exact same issue in Kansas, where they attempted to revoke the historic bldg tax credits..

Whooaa Nellie.. You don't want to get me started on abortion reform, but I'll pass on something Glen Coffee (Senate Pres Pro Tempore) recently said [paraphrased]: "We'll pass the laws, we'll let the judiciary worry about their constitutionality."

And as far as recent Oklahoma developments, those suits had actual constitutional grounds and were successful.

You actually did just give me an idea as to how this could be attacked though. My understanding is that the spending bill is a single bill apportioning monies to different state agencies. That's all a spending bill is supposed to be able to do. If, as part of the state's spending bill, the tax credits were effectively cancelled, the legislature may well be violating both the proper procedure (which is spelled out in great detail in the Constitution) for putting the budget together as well as the single-subject rule which has struck down all of the recent abortion bills.

So there may be your argument.


There's still this pesky larger issue of rights as guaranteed by the federal and state constitution, as well as contract law, which will likely be the deciding factor in any lawsuit. Fact of the matter is that the state leg is trying to change the rules of the game in the middle of the game despite these tax credits already being guaranteed. Because it is a two year moratorium, and historic rehabilitation projects take 2-4 to be completed, the ONLY tax credits being affected by this moratorium are basically ones that have already been guaranteed.

Define "guaranteed." Is there a contract to which the state is a party?

have to go along with Midtowner on the define "guarantee".

Imagine there is a clause in these tax credit bills that are very similar to every bond issue bill that I have read that went something like this: "In no way, manner, shape or form is this bond debt to be considered a debt against the state of Oklahoma." (In the appropriate legaleze). In other words...

Q. When is a debt/guarantee not a debt/guarantee?
A. When the Legislature decides it.

Or "trust us, but don't try to hold us legally to it" (hmmm, that reminds me....)

And even if there was a guarantee, have they waived sovereign immunity?

Like I said, maybe you can get 'em on procedure -- if they included the tax credit cuts on the appropriations bill, that could violate the single subject rule. Or even if they put all the tax credits together on one bill, that'd probably violate the rule as well. That's where I'd go with this thing. I'd plead other causes of action, but that's my favorite.

Has anyone heard anything about the potential rider to exempt historic tax credits? I wrote all of our legislators last night and heard back from a few very rapidly. Some said they were "working on it", but I haven't read anything.

....not to mention this exact same issue in Kansas, where they attempted to revoke the historic bldg tax credits..

Let's go back to this statement. If the state of Kansas had to back off a similar action because of lawsuits filed by redevelopers against the state, why couldn't it be done here? Kansas indicated it would cost them far more in legal fees to defend the action than to just reinstate the tax credits. Why couldn't this be done in OK as well? Redevelopers have committed millions to some of these projects based on internal rate or return calculations that include the tax credit just to have the state pull it out from under them. Seems they have a legitimate gripe. Perhaps the tax credit should be stopped from some point going forward rather than financially cripple redevelopers?

I don't know how Kansas works, but it doesn't (or shouldn't) cost Oklahoma a penny to defend lawsuits which probably wouldn't make it past a Motion to Dismiss. We pay the attorneys in the A.G.'s office whether or not they defend this sort of suit, so it doesn't really make a difference there.

The mere expectancy of free money from the state doesn't create a property interest protected by any constitutional provision.

The only way the state is on the hook is if they were contractually obligated to pay these credits.

The legislature still has to jump through the right hoops to get these credits to go away, but assuming they do, there's really not much that can be done.

Spoken like a true lawyer. Of course lawsuits don't cost anything...



I'm just kidding you.

Spoken like a true lawyer. Of course lawsuits don't cost anything...



I'm just kidding you.

No, they don't when you are paying the same salary to your assistants whether they work on these cases or not -- and you're probably talking about maybe 10-20 cases which can all be consolidated?

Just because there's a lot of money at stake doesn't mean that the case is all that complex. This'll be a question of law, so protracted discovery and the sorts of things which really complicate most lawsuits and drive up expenses just don't really exist here.

And like I said, I can't see a great legal ground 'cept the one and the legislature could still take care of that or may have already.