View Full Version : OKC Rankings



dcsooner
04-11-2009, 05:16 PM
OKC has received national recognition lately on several fronts, most recently No.1 in affordability(rents), Most recession proof, one of best cities for singles, etc. etc. With all these supposed positives why do you think OKC and Oklahoma in general lags in population growth (avg a little over 1 %) in relation to other cities/states?

ddavidson8
04-11-2009, 05:42 PM
I think the low pay in general hurts Oklahoma. Not just in the tech fields. The lag in secondary education compared to Texas doesn't help either.

PennyQuilts
04-11-2009, 06:46 PM
I think the lack of natural draws contributes. People drive through (or fly over) and don't have incentive to come check us out on vacation, for example.

Moreover, the lack of a major river and OKC's unique history means that we aren't an old city that has had a longer time to develop a population density and long established universities with a tradition that pulls in upper level students and all the things secondary to that. However, just in my lifetime I have seen it explode, culturally.

The low pay - despite the low cost of living - is also a problem. Going from OKC to another city back east comes with severe sticker shock but you don't move east unless you have a better paying job or are particularly motivated. Heading from the east to OKC when you don't already have a connection to the city is thwarted when people look at salaries. My own kids who were raised here can't imagine giving up their big NYC salaries in exchange for OKC pay even though, if they thought about it, they could afford bigger houses, larger yards, private schools, etc. for half or less of their NYC salaries. Of course, a lot of people like my kids aren't interested in "stuff." They all like to travel and living in NYC allows them much cheaper international flights that they'd have to give up from OKC. Plus, they have time to go back and forth to Europe several times a year on nonstop flights that they can take on a long weekend. If that is something that is important to you, OKC is not a good option.

There is also the notion of OKC as backward and hickish - something not helped by people who have such a bad opinion of the city notwithstanding that they don't have much to compare it to - they just assume it is small-town with every negative connotation that comes with that but and they don't focus on the upside of small-town.

Personally, I find that I tend to discount the concern about the weather, perhaps because I find that part of the draw. But I wouldn't be honest if I didn't admit that I can't have a conversation with someone not from the area who doesn't have concerns about tornadoes. Many automatically assume it is just too dangerous to live here. Honestly, sometimes I wonder if those people think we are living in a third world country like the kind subject to mass distruction as a result of monsoons or something. I have heard a number of educated people tell me that they believe we don't have two story houses in Oklahoma because of the tornado risk. If that sort of strange thinking is widespread, a lot of people wouldn't even consider moving here. And frankly, maybe that is a good thing.

jsibelius
04-11-2009, 07:30 PM
When we were moving around with the military (or about to start, that is), we switched assignments with another family specifically to move to this part of the country. Others on the base couldn't get past the flat and nearly treeless terrain (OKC is a little less flat and treeless than where we were at the time). We were used to flat and treeless, so we didn't think anything of it. In fact, it was HOME - or very close to it, anyway. Flat and treeless makes a big difference when you're used to more hills and taller trees. Sometimes money means nothing.

okcpulse
04-11-2009, 08:33 PM
Well, now here is my problem. Oklahoma does have a national forest, three ancient and fascinating mountain ranges (ancient meaning hundreds of millions of years of erosion has reduced them to large but pretty hills), and just rolling terrain in general.

The problem is that people from out of state are not aware of what natural treasures we do have. All of our lakes are man-made, but that gives us plenty of water for recreational activities.

Heck, a simple glance of Oklahoma's terrain on Live Maps or Google Earth should be enough to tell these people that Oklahoma's terrain is really diverse.

But I don't buy the argument that the lack of population growth is due to flat terrain. Look at Dallas/Ft. Worth. DFW has the same exact terrain, same exact weather, same exact plant life and climate. Yet 6.5 million people live there. 1.2 million live in OKC. I don't buy the "lack of terrain" logic. That's a poor excuse.

oustud7
04-11-2009, 08:54 PM
I live in Dallas and have since 06 - and my theory as to why it is so much bigger than Oklahoma City is that Dallas leaders had better city planning and entrepreneurship in the post WWII era that set the pace for population growth and the national opinion that people have today. Dallas is growing faster than Oklahoma City today simply because it's already so much bigger and now ranks among the USA's top cities for corporate HQs. Granted, there is a ton more to do here; vastly different mindset, better quality of urban life etc, but that is because Dallasites did the work 40 years ago that people in Oklahoma City are just now doing - and they are still working just as hard to make Dallas a better place to live as the people in Oklahoma City are doing. And they are doing it with more private funding.

Anyway that's just my 2 cents.

PennyQuilts
04-11-2009, 09:13 PM
The problem is that people from out of state are not aware of what natural treasures we do have. All of our lakes are man-made, but that gives us plenty of water for recreational activities.

People are always astonished when I tell them that Oklahoma, with 11 separate ecoregions, has more than any other state. I tell them about the diversity of terrain and have even been known to e-mail pictures of different parts of the state to people to demonstrate the fabulous variety. They are always impressed and surprised. The Grapes of Wrath really dealt Oklahoma a blow. People expect the whole state to look like the panhandle in winter. Only grittier.


But I don't buy the argument that the lack of population growth is due to flat terrain. Look at Dallas/Ft. Worth. DFW has the same exact terrain, same exact weather, same exact plant life and climate. Yet 6.5 million people live there. 1.2 million live in OKC. I don't buy the "lack of terrain" logic. That's a poor excuse.

Again, I think OKC really got started later. (as an aside and with no offense to Dallas, I think Oklahoma has more interesting terrain). Plus, Dallas is closer to the Gulf where many immigrants arrived. Many of them settled further south but not that many made it all the way north of the Red River.

progressiveboy
04-11-2009, 09:28 PM
I live in Dallas and have since 06 - and my theory as to why it is so much bigger than Oklahoma City is that Dallas leaders had better city planning and entrepreneurship in the post WWII era that set the pace for population growth and the national opinion that people have today. Dallas is growing faster than Oklahoma City today simply because it's already so much bigger and now ranks among the USA's top cities for corporate HQs. Granted, there is a ton more to do here; vastly different mindset, better quality of urban life etc, but that is because Dallasites did the work 40 years ago that people in Oklahoma City are just now doing - and they are still working just as hard to make Dallas a better place to live as the people in Oklahoma City are doing. And they are doing it with more private funding.

Anyway that's just my 2 cents. Agree! However, everytime I mention about Dallas being more of a progressive,dynamic city than OKC then "some" people get a little agitated and accuse me of drinking the "Dallas" koolaid, lol. Yes, Dallas has more traffic and crime, but realistically it has always been a more cosmopolitan, exciting place to live. I also agree with the posting that Dallas has so many corporate HQs that it attracts major wealth and a more progressive mindset than OKC. I am a native of OKC and grew up there, however, the longer I am away from there the more stranger and distant I feel about it. What also helps Dallas is that it is home to 14 billionares (according to Forbes} and has the old money to back it up. OKC has made strides but in my own opinion, it will never be a major philanthropic city such as Dallas.

adaniel
04-11-2009, 10:32 PM
As a native of the North Dallas suburbs I find this a very interesting little post. Its funny but when I meet people who moved to Dallas from NYC, LA, Chicago, Boston, they often whine and moan about the same things that people complain about OKC (no culture, too suburban, flat, bad weather, too conservative, blah blah blah) And I'm sure coming from where they are coming from its probably true to certain extent, but that doesn't change the fact that they are living in Dallas, not their uber-hip hometown.

In any event DCsooner, I don't mean to attack your views but polls like this kinda irk me to an extent. While definitely willing to acknowledge the flaws of OKC, I don't quite understand what you mean as to why OKC and OK aren't growing as fast as other states. First, that is statistically untrue. OKC, as a city, ranks as the 12th fastest growing city in American with a population above 250K. In the last census estimate OKC ranked 35 out of 362 MSA's in percent growth. Also, OK as as a state ranked above the national average compared to the nation. Check it out for yourself Population Estimates (http://www.census.gov/popest/metro/metro.html) No, its not the breakneck speed of areas like Phoenix and Vegas but considering the horrendous current state of their economy and housing market I'm not necessarily jealous. Also, you must remember the components of growth. Growth just isn't a measure of how many people are moving to an area from inside the US, but rather who immigrating there and how many people are being born. California looks like it growing in line with the rest of the US, but those figures don't tell the whole story. California is bleeding native residents, but an off-the-chart amount of immigration and births keeps the state population growth okay, even if IMHO that is very unhealthy growth that doesn't contribute to that states tax base. OKC has enjoyed positive net in migration for most of this decade and the state the second half of this decade, although as a state we have low international migration and a somewhat low birthrate.

Back to your question, even assuming that OKC wasn't growing at the rate it was, we won't grow at the rate of much larger cities. I heard a poster at TulsaNow describe Tulsa as a "training bra" city and in some aspects that can be true of OKC. Its a big enough city that it attracts "small town" kids from Amarillo and Wichita and Fort Smith but not large enough to keep its own residents from moving to larger cities like Dallas, Houston, etc. Although OKC, as already mentioned, has made improvements and has made better strides than most cities of our size (1-2 million).

Also I think that OKC will eventually have a ceiling put on its growth if the state doesn't get its act together. I feel that many members in the state capitol from the rural parts or Tulsa look at OKC with a little bit of disdain and do not look at OKC with a good eye even if it will benefit their area as well (look at the Thunder fiasco). Also, there are many problems at the state level and a severe lack of visionaries like OKC enjoys. Eventually this will all catch up with this area. In the mean time, OKC just keep needs to doing what its already done and the growth will fall in place.

PennyQuilts
04-12-2009, 07:29 AM
Nice analysis, Adaniel.

TaoMaas
04-12-2009, 07:51 AM
Again, I think OKC really got started later. (as an aside and with no offense to Dallas, I think Oklahoma has more interesting terrain).


I agree with you, ECO. I think part of the reason why it seems like OKC is growing slower is because we're so much younger. Also people tend to forget that Oklahoma has gone through a couple of "booms". The phase that we're in now is really somewhat of a downturn from what we've enjoyed in the past when a number of the largest oil companies in the world were headquartered around the state. We've had our highs and our lows and we're just now settling into where we ought to be as a city and a state. And that place ain't so bad as some of these recent polls are showing.
You're also right about Oklahoma having more interesting terrain. A lot of Texans would agree with you, too. If you want proof of that, drive through any of Oklahoma's state parks in the southern half of the state and count the number of Texas/Louisianna license plates vs Oklahoma plates.

dcsooner
04-12-2009, 08:52 AM
ADaniel, I am sorry this pole irks you, but OKC can only become a better more progressive city by taking a hard look and making HONEST assessments of its positives and negatives. I disagree that OKC and OK are growing at a similar rate as other mid level cities. First, just looking at the census attachment, numbers from 2000 through 2008 and examine the growth of places like Charlotte, Raleigh/Durham, Austin, Salt Lake City, Nashville, Columbus, Indianapolis,and others. Most, if not all, outpaced the 115K growth over the period in OKC. Our growth resembles places like Dayton, Fresno, New Orleans, Buffalo, Rochester, all considered declining cities.

My main point was to begin a discussion on how and what can citizens do to get the message to OKC leaders regarding the changes they want to see in their city so that their QOL is improved and Oklahoma City does not "remain" a training bra city and our young do not feel like they have to move away to enjoy a vibrant place. The intent was to initiate an intelligent debate among people who "care" about the city and State to assess what can and should be done to improve the quality of life across a broad area to make OKC a MORE desirable place TO MOVE TO, NOT FROM.

I am a Okalhoma native who is very tired of always deferring to Dallas/Houston/. I am ready for OKC to begin to define itself by its own standards not those of Dallas or anywhere else. Do the citizens of OKC want to become a City that other places want to immulate or continue to lose its best and brightest to other cities precisely because those cities are and continue to strive to remain vibant. There are many natives of Oklahoma on this board that have moved to other places for many reasons. My interest is to get their views on why they like where they live, what is it about that place that makes them want to stay there rather than return to the State of their birth and over time maybe improve in some areas so that in the future many of us will gladly return.

betts
04-12-2009, 09:28 AM
I don't want to be Dallas. I'd like to be Boston, and actually, I think we have a better chance of being Boston than Dallas.

Boston is somewhat provincial, but charming. People there are passionate about their sports. It's not big and brawling and new. People there value what they have and develop what they have. If I could get there easily, I'd go to Boston every weekend. I can get to Dallas easily and I go there once or twice a year, usually associated with some sporting event.....less so now that I don't feel compelled to go to at least one Mavericks game every year:)

We have the opportunity to develop a charming downtown, one that our residents will value. We're never going to get the tourists that a place like Boston has, but we might be able to develop a strong bond between our residents and the city, which will help us grow a steady, but not overwhelming, amount. I think we need to concentrate on our downtown, on improving our old buildings, making it liveable and giving us reasons to hang out there in our free time. A great park will help, retail will help, more housing will help. But honestly, I think we're doing the right things....maybe not as fast as all of us would like, but we're headed in the right direction.

If we have a charming downtown, people will take notice, but again, we're not getting the tourists some other cities get.....ever. Dallas does just fine without lots of tourists, in terms of growth, and so could/can we, and that's the only way in which I'd like to be like Dallas.

dcsooner
04-12-2009, 09:42 AM
Betts,
I can do Boston-Great City!!!

MadMonk
04-12-2009, 09:56 AM
I think it's a combination of perception and lack of unique natural attractions. Few people outside of family members and those in nearby states have a reason to come here and so few ever visit for vacations, therefore old stereotypes persist. I doubt Oklahoma will ever become a tourism mecca, but perceptions are slowing changing as "the word gets out".

I've had people from back east ask me - no joke - if I ever see Indians in Oklahoma anymore! I was dumbfounded and played it off by saying, nah, the cavalry keeps them on the reservation, but you can still hear them whoop & holler when they get a war party assembled. :rolleyes:

When I first found out we were moving to Oklahoma (I was 12), I was very upset. All I knew about Oklahoma at the time was what I saw in The Grapes of Wrath movie and I didn't want to live on a farm. I was pleasantly surprised once I arrived. :kicking:

Bunty
04-12-2009, 12:42 PM
Two former Oklahoma friends of mine who moved to San Diego and Las Vegas like it in those places so much they don't think they'll ever move back to Oklahoma. Another friend whose retail company moved him about several states, including Oklahoma, until Wal-Mart finally drove it out of business finally settled down in Colorado Springs, and he has no interest in living again in Oklahoma.

Anyway, I think in recent years Oklahoma has made great strides for modern day progress by successfully revolting against some of the demands from the Republican religious right circles. But that job will be far from complete until Oklahoma legislators are voted out who make Oklahoma and Oklahoma City look backward and not with it over their rantings against the homosexual agenda and who try to force religion and the teaching of creationism in the public schools.

If only more intelligent Oklahomans would think big for the future of the state as some already have, it would sure help. But the conservative political mindset too often tries to stand in the way, such as the opposition to raising taxes for the Ford Center and other MAPS projects. Fortunately, so far, it keeps being defeated.

bretthexum
04-12-2009, 01:07 PM
Sorry, I think anyone who says Oklahoma has good terrain/land/natural attractions compared to other states is wrong. I've lived in 6 states and visited almost every one. The only thing close is the eastern part of the state. But the OKC metro area?? Yuck. Muddy red water and farmland? No thanks. But really - I don't think that is a huge reason people don't move here. But don't try to sugarcoat it.

PennyQuilts
04-12-2009, 03:48 PM
I understand what you are saying - to an extent - about the red water and farmland. But for me, the sky, the long view and the sunsets are what are so beautiful. I think it is a somewhat acquired taste and easy to overlook if your thing is water, mountains or trees. Right now, I live among gorgeous trees and enjoy that - but when I am back home in Oklahoma, I just have to stop what I am doing with a gorgeous sunset. We just don't get those, here. Most people aren't going to move someone because of the sunsets but for some of us, it is a big deal. And the wide open spaces...hmmmm - just brings me peace.

CCOKC
04-12-2009, 04:42 PM
My stepbrother's wife came to visit last year from Portland. She went for a drive up the NWE and kept going until she got to Kingfisher because she "got lost in how beautiful it was". We may not have trees and ocean but we do have a beauty that can and should be appreciated.

dcsooner
04-12-2009, 04:59 PM
All,
This the type of dialogue I was hoping for when I started this thread, disagree, but,civil. What I would also like is a discussion of what are the 5 or so things the City should do (with public support) to significantly improve some of the areas we have talked about. What strengths should we promote more vigorously. My first one is MAPS 3, I believe OKC residents MUST pass MAPS 3 in some form to maintain the current positive momentum. OKC does need a world class convention center with hotel, the city does need urban green space like are being proposed. I am really afraid that MAPS 3 will fail,that would be a setback in my opinion. We have seen how investing in our city has started to change both our and others perception. Another big change I believe could help is to get the airport to a place where direct flights to the top 40 cities are available. A couple cities our size have an advantage because they are mini hubs (Nashville, Memphis, Salt Lake City). Air travel to/from OKC is often drudgery. Thoughts?

bretthexum
04-12-2009, 05:15 PM
Another big change I believe could help is to get the airport to a place where direct flights to the top 40 cities are available. A couple cities our size have an advantage because they are mini hubs (Nashville, Memphis, Salt Lake City). Air travel to/from OKC is often drudgery. Thoughts?

This would be great for travel to and from OKC. I wonder how much of this we can really control as a city though... being that airlines are cutting back so much. It seems we'd have to steal connections from other mini hubs. I don't see airline growth happening soon.

CCOKC
04-12-2009, 05:26 PM
For me if MAPS 3 came down between a Convention Center, Light Rail and Core to Shore I choose Core to Shore. Most truly great cities have a magnificant central park of some time and I would like to see something for the citizens first, a great boulevard and park to bring people to the center first, a way to bring them there second and a place to bring the visitors third. I am not saying they are not all important just saying that these seems to be the natural progression.

Stan Silliman
04-12-2009, 10:24 PM
Anyway, I think in recent years Oklahoma has made great strides for modern day progress by successfully revolting against some of the demands from the Republican religious right circles. But that job will be far from complete until Oklahoma legislators are voted out who make Oklahoma and Oklahoma City look backward and not with it over their rantings against the homosexual agenda and who try to force religion and the teaching of creationism in the public schools.

If only more intelligent Oklahomans would think big for the future of the state as some already have, it would sure help. But the conservative political mindset too often tries to stand in the way, such as the opposition to raising taxes for the Ford Center and other MAPS projects. Fortunately, so far, it keeps being defeated.

All the old Gaylords may soon be gone. Does that give you hope?

Stan Silliman
04-12-2009, 10:31 PM
Personally, I find that I tend to discount the concern about the weather, perhaps because I find that part of the draw. But I wouldn't be honest if I didn't admit that I can't have a conversation with someone not from the area who doesn't have concerns about tornadoes. Many automatically assume it is just too dangerous to live here. Honestly, sometimes I wonder if those people think we are living in a third world country like the kind subject to mass distruction as a result of monsoons or something. I have heard a number of educated people tell me that they believe we don't have two story houses in Oklahoma because of the tornado risk. If that sort of strange thinking is widespread, a lot of people wouldn't even consider moving here. And frankly, maybe that is a good thing.

So you're saying when the Oklahoma Film Commission convinced Spielberg to film "Twister" in Guthrie they didn't do us any favors. Or did they?

okcpulse
04-12-2009, 11:28 PM
Many automatically assume it is just too dangerous to live here. Honestly, sometimes I wonder if those people think we are living in a third world country like the kind subject to mass distruction as a result of monsoons or something. I have heard a number of educated people tell me that they believe we don't have two story houses in Oklahoma because of the tornado risk. If that sort of strange thinking is widespread, a lot of people wouldn't even consider moving here. And frankly, maybe that is a good thing.

I sure hope you take the time to correct them. For people to assume we don't have two-story houses in Oklahoma because of the tornado "risk" quite frankly maes them look uneducated. Do they feel the same way about Dallas? They, too, are in heavy tornado alley.

Besides, tornadoes are much less of a risk in Oklahoma. Lightning is a bigger risk, but not as much as in Florida.

PennyQuilts
04-13-2009, 05:49 AM
So you're saying when the Oklahoma Film Commission convinced Spielberg to film "Twister" in Guthrie they didn't do us any favors. Or did they?

A mixed blessing, surely.

PennyQuilts
04-13-2009, 05:57 AM
I sure hope you take the time to correct them. For people to assume we don't have two-story houses in Oklahoma because of the tornado "risk" quite frankly maes them look uneducated. Do they feel the same way about Dallas? They, too, are in heavy tornado alley.

Besides, tornadoes are much less of a risk in Oklahoma. Lightning is a bigger risk, but not as much as in Florida.

I generally explain it to them but for some, it is hopeless. Dallas wasn't prominently featured in the Grapes of Wrath so they don't think of it. I am not sure many "educated" people even understand that they are relatively close to each other. It is not like these folks understand weather patterns or why this is tornado alley. They just know that Oklahoma is the buckle on the bible belt and that tornadoes hit here. And that it is dusty and gritty and nothing grows here but Indians. Many are shocked that it isn't a monochrome landscape.

Don't mean to sound smug. I frequently have to tell people who mention small towns in this region (Virginia) that I need more information because "I'm not from around here." Still - there is a limit to how much ignorance is reasonable. I'd like to think that I could figure out that Thomas Jefferson is not still running around and that we don't have to dodge civil war bullets.

Platemaker
04-13-2009, 09:26 AM
Sorry, I think anyone who says Oklahoma has good terrain/land/natural attractions compared to other states is wrong. I've lived in 6 states and visited almost every one. The only thing close is the eastern part of the state. But the OKC metro area?? Yuck. Muddy red water and farmland? No thanks. But really - I don't think that is a huge reason people don't move here. But don't try to sugarcoat it.

I can promise you that you obviously have not seen any of state.

Platemaker
04-13-2009, 09:30 AM
... what a stupid poll

okcpulse
04-13-2009, 09:58 AM
I generally explain it to them but for some, it is hopeless. Dallas wasn't prominently featured in the Grapes of Wrath so they don't think of it. I am not sure many "educated" people even understand that they are relatively close to each other. It is not like these folks understand weather patterns or why this is tornado alley. They just know that Oklahoma is the buckle on the bible belt and that tornadoes hit here. And that it is dusty and gritty and nothing grows here but Indians. Many are shocked that it isn't a monochrome landscape.

Don't mean to sound smug. I frequently have to tell people who mention small towns in this region (Virginia) that I need more information because "I'm not from around here." Still - there is a limit to how much ignorance is reasonable. I'd like to think that I could figure out that Thomas Jefferson is not still running around and that we don't have to dodge civil war bullets.

My goodness if these people only knew the saturation of mega-churches and televangelists in Texas, they would realize the buckle has shifted. Or perhaps it never was Oklahoma to begin with.

metro
04-13-2009, 10:16 AM
... what a stupid poll

agreed. Can I vote for Other or None of The Above. IMO it's that results take time and aren't going to be immediate after a few articles come out. Now guage it in a few years and then see. We live in an "immediate gratification" society and expect but rarely see instant results. Not to mention, people on the coasts are going broke, bankrupt, etc. in record numbers and can't just uproot a family overnight. I know of several families just from reading this website that are moving here from all over the country and don't have family here. The press is definitely working, give it time!

bretthexum
04-13-2009, 11:03 AM
I can promise you that you obviously have not seen any of state.

Ugh... yeah I have. But like I posted, that's about #10 on my list of reasons to move to a state.

PennyQuilts
04-13-2009, 02:21 PM
My goodness if these people only knew the saturation of mega-churches and televangelists in Texas, they would realize the buckle has shifted. Or perhaps it never was Oklahoma to begin with.

I hope that doesn't mean their trousers are dropping!

trousers
04-13-2009, 02:22 PM
Huh? You talkin' to me?

PennyQuilts
04-13-2009, 02:27 PM
Huh? You talkin' to me?

hahahaha!!

AFCM
04-17-2009, 05:50 PM
... what a stupid poll

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i300/aimforcentermass/poll.jpg

You can say that again.

37.88% + 56.06% + 33.33% + 1.52% = 128.79%

WTF?

BPD
04-17-2009, 08:06 PM
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i300/aimforcentermass/poll.jpg

You can say that again.

37.88% + 56.06% + 33.33% + 1.52% = 128.79%

WTF?

All that means is that an individual can give more than one answer.