View Full Version : Capitol Hill Definition



Pages : [1] 2

Doug Loudenback
03-28-2009, 11:29 AM
Here's a question that bears upon what pics I or others might stick in this thread:

What IS Capitol Hill, exactly, if it has any common accepted definition? South of the east/west railroad tracks, west of the north/south Santa Fe tracks ... I suppose (but am not certain) that those two "boundaries" are correct.

But what about south and west? Welge's book includes Packingtown as part of his Capitol Hill chapter, but how would that be so? Just proximity? The last page of the chapter shows a picture of the Oklahoma City Community College ... I surely don't think of Capitol Hill including that area.

Maybe I'm wearing glasses or blinders that need adjustment. Anyone know of a commonly accepted definition of Capitol Hill?

Generals64
03-28-2009, 11:34 AM
Here's a question that bears upon what pics I or others might stick in this thread:

What IS Capitol Hill, exactly, if it has any common accepted definition? South of the east/west railroad tracks, west of the north/south Santa Fe tracks ... I suppose (but am not certain) that those two "boundaries" are correct.

But what about south and west? Welge's book includes Packingtown as part of his Capitol Hill chapter, but how would that be so? Just proximity? The last page of the chapter shows a picture of the Oklahoma City Community College ... I surely don't think of Capitol Hill including that area.

Maybe I'm wearing glasses or blinders that need adjustment. Anyone know of a commonly accepted definition of Capitol Hill?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
My conception as from a child...was 29th and penn north to aboaut 18th st.
and then East to Shields....Past Shields was a whole nuther world....I'll get my father-in-law in a talking mode and find out for sure.....the retail area went from the West of shields to Walker (remember 25th st. was called Commerce in that area...)I'll show your book buddies today...I'm getting confused...you know, old-timers disease.....

papaOU
03-28-2009, 04:59 PM
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
My conception as from a child...was 29th and penn north to aboaut 18th st.
and then East to Shields....Past Shields was a whole nuther world....I'll get my father-in-law in a talking mode and find out for sure.....the retail area went from the West of shields to Walker (remember 25th st. was called Commerce in that area...)I'll show your book buddies today...I'm getting confused...you know, old-timers disease.....

I am looking for an old map I found years ago. If I remember correctly North boundary was the river. south 29. I just don't remember east/west divider.
My family have lived in the College Hill Addition for........I have not been able to find information on the addition........

papaOU
03-28-2009, 05:09 PM
Here's a question that bears upon what pics I or others might stick in this thread:

What IS Capitol Hill, exactly, if it has any common accepted definition? South of the east/west railroad tracks, west of the north/south Santa Fe tracks ... I suppose (but am not certain) that those two "boundaries" are correct.

But what about south and west? Welge's book includes Packingtown as part of his Capitol Hill chapter, but how would that be so? Just proximity? The last page of the chapter shows a picture of the Oklahoma City Community College ... I surely don't think of Capitol Hill including that area.

Maybe I'm wearing glasses or blinders that need adjustment. Anyone know of a commonly accepted definition of Capitol Hill?

I have never heard that Packingtown was a part of Capitol Hill. I am going to have to do some looking but I may find the boundaries. I guess what matters is what are you asking. Capitol Hill High School boundaries are wide. When I was in school it ran from about High to Portland (or further). North/south is tougher. I am going to say 15th to 44th but I know some CHHS students came from some areas between 44th and 59th. CONFUSED???????

Doug Loudenback
03-28-2009, 10:00 PM
Rather than clutter up the Capitol Hill Pics thread (http://www.okctalk.com/nostalgia-memories/17357-capitol-hill-pics.html) with this discussion, I thought it best for the "definition" topic to have its own thread ... and, M, maybe you will consider moving some of the posts in the Pics thread here, those which relate to the definition issue, so that the Pics thread pretty much stays a Pics thread.

My purpose is to see if we can arrive at a consensus as to the boundaries of Capitol Hill. Looking around on the internet and hearing the view of forum members who have so far expressed themselves on the boundaries of Capitol Hill, and seeing that it appears to be pretty much a subjective thing (particularly on the Internet but also in sources like Welge's Oklahoma City Rediscovered book), I figured that, "Hey, why can't OkcTalkers make the call," and, then, when I get around to doing a long blog article on Capitol Hill, I will use that definition and credit the forum as the source. Everyone else pretty much makes up his/her own definition; therefore, so can we.

I've put together a map, below, marking of what I thought were logical areas either to include or exclude as part of the definition. I've intentionally made it larger that I suppose most would say really IS part of the Capitol Hill area. For example, I doubt that anyone would seriously think that the Crossroads Mall area (8 in the map) is part of Capitol Hill. But, then, I wouldn't have thought that Welge would have included Oklahoma City Community College in area 12, but he did.

Here's the map:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/capitolhill/capitolhill_definition.jpg

It is evident that the definition has changed over time. Obviously, those who incorporated Capitol Hill as a city back in 1905 had a very precise definition. However, I doubt that many if any would limit the definition to that small area today even if most everyone would agree that it is the "heart" or "kernel" area. According to Charles G. Hill's nice Dustbury mini-article at The Vent #421 (http://www.dustbury.com/vent/vent421.html) , Capitol Hill was annexed by Oklahoma City in 1911.

Since an objective definition does not exist, I'm thinking that the opinions of those who live or have lived in south of Interstate 40 may be the most reliable sources in coming up with a good subjective definition. If such people considered that they did, or did not, live in Capitol Hill, I'd suppose that information to be very important since it would be part of how they identify themselves. To me, that's more important than the opinion of me (for example) who never lived in and don't identify myself as being a "Capitol Hill person" except in the broad sense that I identify anyone in Oklahoma City or its immediate environs (e.g., Edmond) as being my Oklahoma City brother or sister, if you get my drift.

So, what's your opinion? Which parts in the above map are part of Capitol Hill and which are not?

My own present vote (I can be persuaded differently) would be

Capitol Hill ...

For sure: Area 3
Probably: Areas 4 & 10
Well, maybe: Areas 1, 2 & 9

Not Capitol Hill: Areas 5, 6, 7, 8, 11 & 12

Generals64
03-28-2009, 10:26 PM
Rather than clutter up the Capitol Hill Pics thread (http://www.okctalk.com/nostalgia-memories/17357-capitol-hill-pics.html) with this discussion, I thought it best for the "definition" topic to have its own thread ... and, M, maybe you will consider moving some of the posts in the Pics thread here, those which relate to the definition issue, so that the Pics thread pretty much stays a Pics thread.

My purpose is to see if we can arrive at a consensus as to the boundaries of Capitol Hill. Looking around on the internet and hearing the view of forum members who have so far expressed themselves on the boundaries of Capitol Hill, and seeing that it appears to be pretty much a subjective thing (particularly on the Internet but also in sources like Welge's Oklahoma City Rediscovered book), I figured that, "Hey, why can't OkcTalkers make the call," and, then, when I get around to doing a long blog article on Capitol Hill, I will use that definition and credit the forum as the source. Everyone else pretty much makes up his/her own definition; therefore, so can we.

I've put together a map, below, marking of what I thought were logical areas either to include or exclude as part of the definition. I've intentionally made it larger that I suppose most would say really IS part of the Capitol Hill area. For example, I doubt that anyone would seriously think that the Crossroads Mall area (8 in the map) is part of Capitol Hill. But, then, I wouldn't have thought that Welge would have included Oklahoma City Community College in area 12, but he did.

Here's the map:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/capitolhill/capitolhill_definition.jpg

It is evident that the definition has changed over time. Obviously, those who incorporated Capitol Hill as a city back in 1905 had a very precise definition. However, I doubt that many if any would limit the definition to that small area today even if most everyone would agree that it is the "heart" or "kernel" area. According to Charles G. Hill's nice Dustbury mini-article at The Vent #421 (http://www.dustbury.com/vent/vent421.html) , Capitol Hill was annexed by Oklahoma City in 1911.

Since an objective definition does not exist, I'm thinking that the opinions of those who live or have lived in south of Interstate 40 may be the most reliable sources in coming up with a good subjective definition. If such people considered that they did, or did not, live in Capitol Hill, I'd suppose that information to be very important since it would be part of how they identify themselves. To me, that's more important than the opinion of me (for example) who never lived in and don't identify myself as being a "Capitol Hill person" except in the broad sense that I identify anyone in Oklahoma City or its immediate environs (e.g., Edmond) as being my Oklahoma City brother or sister, if you get my drift.

So, what's your opinion? Which parts in the above map are part of Capitol Hill and which are not?

My own present vote (I can be persuaded differently) would be

Capitol Hill ...

For sure: Area 3
Probably: Areas 4 & 10
Well, maybe: Areas 1, 2 & 9

Not Capitol Hill: Areas 5, 6, 7, 8, 11 & 12
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Doug:.. I believe that the Not Capitol Hill Areas you posted would be truthfully NOT actually part of Capitol Hill...But, S. Western and Walker are not on the map or I'm going blind.....maybe old....

Doug Loudenback
03-28-2009, 10:54 PM
You're not as old or as blind as me! I left out streets I thought people would figure out to keep the map uncluttered. I've now added Western, Walker, and Robinson. You may need to press your refresh key (F5) to see the revised map. Does that help?

papaOU
03-28-2009, 11:49 PM
This might cause problems, but here goes anyway. I don't think you can get a real feel and understanding of Capitol Hill unless you concentrate on the core area. Businesses and people. That small Commerce St. area, Shields to Western, and the river to SW29th. There was and still is a hatred of anything north. Or let's say north of Reno. I am 53 and it started before I came along. I think the annexation vote is a big reason why. Don't know if you are aware but residents of Capitol Hill, Oklahoma were not allowed to vote. Only residents of Okc.
A number of people I know who were raised in Capitol Hill still would not move north for any reason. And they will tell you they are proud to be Capitol Hill/Southsiders.
I have always wanted to write a book because I love research and writing. Maybe I'll do one...................................

papaOU
03-28-2009, 11:54 PM
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Doug:.. I believe that the Not Capitol Hill Areas you posted would be truthfully NOT actually part of Capitol Hill...But, S. Western and Walker are not on the map or I'm going blind.....maybe old....

NO!!You went to Grant!!

Doug Loudenback
03-29-2009, 12:34 AM
This might cause problems, but here goes anyway. I don't think you can get a real feel and understanding of Capitol Hill unless you concentrate on the core area. Businesses and people. That small Commerce St. area, Shields to Western, and the river to SW29th. There was and still is a hatred of anything north. Or let's say north of Reno. I am 53 and it started before I came along. I think the annexation vote is a big reason why. Don't know if you are aware but residents of Capitol Hill, Oklahoma were not allowed to vote. Only residents of Okc.
A number of people I know who were raised in Capitol Hill still would not move north for any reason. And they will tell you they are proud to be Capitol Hill/Southsiders.
I have always wanted to write a book because I love research and writing. Maybe I'll do one...................................
As far as I'm concerned, there's never a problem about saying what you think or feel. But, I'm wholly unfamiliar with the 1911 Capitol Hill annexation. But annexation by Oklahoma City of gobs of territory by surrounding it and then annexing in much later times ruffled many feathers, too ... see Doug Dawgz Blog: Oklahoma City Area History (http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2008/12/oklahoma-city-area-history.html) ... those annexations likely caused the same sensations in not a few. But, if you're still holding a grudge since and after 1911 on behalf of your ancestors, well ... there is nothing that I could or would want to say about that which would possibly matter! :dizzy:

But ... what would you say about the definition -- just use the original Capitol Hill city boundaries which were fairly small, when those living then apparently got pretty well pissed by what Oklahoma City did without their permission? Even though Capitol Hill High School is located at 500 SW 36th Street (at that point Grand Blvd., i.e., outside the original Capitol Hill city boundaries)?

kevinpate
03-29-2009, 06:37 AM
Just my sense over the years, without ever living in the area:
3 - well, duh.
The rest, even right up close to the borders of 3, seem a bit different from the core when I travel that area.
I'm more inclined to view 2 with 1 and 4 with seven than find either meshing with 3 wheni think on it.

Martin
03-29-2009, 06:40 AM
hmmm....

here's what i think...

#1 is out. i always thought that the river represented a hard boundary of anything considered 'south' and therefore anything that could be considered 'capitol hill'

#9 is out. packingtown, in my opinion, always had its own identity as evidenced by streets and subdivisions that had variations of the packing firms' names.

#12 is out. in fact, the western portion of that was incorporated as 'mclemore' from the '50s into the early '60s when it was annexed.

while it certainly has blurry boundaries as you suggest... i'd say that #3 & #4 are definitely part of capitol hill. it'd be difficult for me to call anything east of shields capitol hill, but if memory serves, there is/was a touristy/nostalgic sign on the west side of shields that said something to the effect of 'welcome to capitol hill'... so evidently many people felt that shields was a gateway into the district. the west boundary, though, is really blurry to me... not sure i could nail it down, but i'd feel it ended by penn... but that's more of a loose feeling than anything.

one question... you say that there were distinct boundaries in the 1905 incorporation... do you know what those boundaries were?

-M

Martin
03-29-2009, 07:36 AM
found the sign... it's on the nw corner of se 25th & shields.

here's a link to google streetview (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=35.439331,-97.511585&spn=0,359.997369&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=35.439438,-97.511647&panoid=ADneOmJ1JvJe6g8FzVbrdw&cbp=12,300.78982014962713,,0,9.72905979552717) -M

Doug Loudenback
03-29-2009, 08:50 AM
M, no I don't seem to have a map or plat of the incorporated city. I looked in the 1905 Township maps but it doesn't seem to show municipalities. I've looked in the 1906 Sanborn maps but they doesn't show the Capitol Hill are in the Oklahoma City map (which goes no further south than the river) and a separate map isn't present for Capitol Hill. The next sequential Sanborn map is 1922, so they aren't helpful with this. So, striking out so far, but I'm still looking.

Doug Loudenback
03-29-2009, 10:58 AM
ON EDIT: The map I got all hot and bothered about is Capitol Hill in Logan County. Bummer. I'll leave the post, but modify it.

I've been scouring OHS's Star Archives this morning for anything I could find on Capitol Hill, and I've saved quite a few of the small pics available there.

But, [I first thought] here's the biggie ...

A PDF file is there showing the Capitol Hill Townsite in 1892 ... whether this became official I don't presently know, but if so this may mean that what I've read before about incorporation in 1904 or 1905 is incorrect (although the information may also be reconcilable). [Error - the map is Capitol Hill in Logan County]

Regardless, this is a map lover's delight (I'm particularly thinking of you, M). I've extracted the image from the PDF file and here it is:

Largest File Size (1692 x 3999 px): http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/capitolhill/capitolhill_townsite_1892.jpg

Large File Size (1024 x 2420 px): http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/capitolhill/capitolhill_townsite_1892_1024.jpg

The 800 x 1891 px version is shown below:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/capitolhill/capitolhill_townsite_1892_800.jpg

ON EDIT: WRONG WRONG WRONG. This is Capitol Hill in LOGAN COUNTY. Too bad. Back to the drawing boards.

Steve
03-29-2009, 11:10 AM
Doug, I recall running across a map once in the downtown library's archives of the Capitol Hill Beacon. I wonder if Buddy could help out on this one?

Doug Loudenback
03-29-2009, 11:13 AM
OK, getting warmer. Though not nearly as sexy as a great townsite map would have been, I've located this article (http://webinfo2.mls.lib.ok.us/okimages/okimages.asp?WCI=ViewEssay&WCU=000000027) in the Metropolitan Library Images collection (you may need to press your refresh button - F5 - after clicking the link). Part of the article reads:


"South of the River" - The Community of Capitol Hill
by Jana C. Hausburg

It should have been the home of the state capitol. At least, that was the plan. Home to a promising hill overlooking much of Oklahoma City, the area was named accordingly by B.R. Harrington, a newspaper correspondent for the Wichita Beacon. In 1900, he purchased the land from Miss Tryphosa Boyd, who had been among the early settlers attracted to the area after the Land Run of 1889, when Oklahoma lands were opened by the Federal Government. Her deed bore the signature of President Grover Cleveland.

Harrington platted the 160-acre tract near the old Santa Fe Trail and staked out individual lots for sale. His purpose, said Harrington, was to give "sober and industrious mechanics an opportunity to secure homes."

First Bridge Over the North Canadian, approx. route of Robinson Ave.
click for larger view
The site originally extended from Walker to Santa Fe, and from what is now called SW 22nd to SW 29th, the north boundary being the North Canadian River. Later, it grew to incorporate Penn Ave. on the west, SW 44th on the southern edge, stretching all the way to I-35 on the east.

"At the time Capitol Hill was surveyed, I used a county surveyor, a fellow named Williamson," Harrington was quoted in the Capitol Hill Beacon 60th Anniversary edition. "He asked me what I was going to call the place. I said, ‘Why, Capitol Hill, of course´." Thus, Capitol Hill had the distinguishing characteristic of being the only town in Oklahoma considered as a site for the state capitol before it was even a city. Unfortunately, despite vigorous campaigning on the part of Harrington and his associates, the state capitol was located elsewhere.
* * *
Before eventually becoming a suburb of Oklahoma City, Capitol Hill was an incorporated town, with a decree of incorporation being granted on May 3, 1904. George Flanagan was the first mayor of Capitol Hill, from 1906-1910, and it was during his term that citizens of the area petitioned Oklahoma City for annexation. The vote was 1407 to 188 for annexation, although only citizens of Oklahoma City were allowed to vote; Capitol Hill residents were prohibited from taking part in the election.

Capitol Hill Senior High School Reading Room, 530 SW Grand Blvd.
click for larger view

On December 6, 1909, Capitol Hill became part of Oklahoma City, bringing to the coffers a bonus of more than $12,000 - clearly a boon for Oklahoma City government. However, some Capitol Hill residents had complaints.

"Annexation delayed our improvement and deprived us of many things we could have had long ago," complained an unnamed citizen in the July 1910 issue of the Capitol Hill Beacon. "We could have had sidewalks, paving and a city hall. Instead, our enemies stuck on you a 15 ½ mill tax levy, most of which was later spent on the north side."

papaOU
03-29-2009, 02:04 PM
But, if you're still holding a grudge since and after 1911 on behalf of your ancestors, well ...

The annexation was only the start. Capitol Hill through the years has been Okc'c redheaded stepchild. :poke: I think even the Grant and S.E. readers would agree.

Doug Loudenback
03-29-2009, 05:38 PM
OK. You win.

Generals64
03-29-2009, 05:53 PM
OK. You win.
Thanks Doug:....The southside of Okc has contributed many things to the growth of Oklahoma City and Oklahoma City Proper. We as citizens in the area should be proud and excited by the fact that the recognition of Capitol Hill is coming light. Most people in OKC don't even realize the advancement that the people of South OKC have put forth. Generals64 (U.S. Grant Generals that is...Southside school).

papaOU
03-29-2009, 05:53 PM
I am still looking for that darn map of the original Capitol Hill. I know where everything of mine is until I need it!!

dismayed
03-29-2009, 05:57 PM
Isn't the area just south of Capitol Hill/29th actually known as Hillcrest? I don't think it is part of Capitol Hill.

papaOU
03-29-2009, 06:30 PM
I snagged this from the Beacon.

The Capitol Hill area, across the river from downtown Oklahoma City, was settled around 1900, and was incorporated as a city in 1905, though Oklahoma City proper had already spread south of the river itself — Wheeler Park was established in 1903, with the first incarnation of the Oklahoma City Zoo following in 1904. (A flood destroyed much of the park in 1923; the Zoo was relocated across town.)

In 1911, Capitol Hill was annexed by Oklahoma City, but was never quite wholly absorbed; the southside area had its own chamber of commerce, its own community newspaper (the Beacon, still being published), even its own downtown along Commerce Street, which hardly anyone, even today, calls Southwest 25th Street, even though technically that's what it is.

How the two sides of the city grew so far apart over the years is open to debate. It seems reasonable to infer that since city offices, located downtown, are north of the river, the movers and shakers of Oklahoma City's early years tended to spend most of their time, and presumably their efforts, on areas north of the river. W. H. Dunn, as far back as 1909, had envisioned a circular boulevard surrounding the city, and the circle was incorporated into the city plan around 1930. But it wasn't all that circular, nor was its center near the center of town; the northern loop of the eventual Grand Boulevard was built more than five miles north of downtown, beyond NW 63rd Street, but the southern loop was less than a mile south of Commerce Street, along SW 36th Street. It's hard to imagine this asymmetry being accidental.

Whatever the reasons, Capitol Hill eventually went into a tailspin. Many businesses closed; others relocated farther south, closer to the proposed Southwest Expressway, now I-240, which began construction in 1961. And in 1972, the Finger Plan, intended as a remedy for school segregation, proved to be the impetus for massive white flight, much of it to the Moore school district, whose northern boundary was SW/SE 82nd Street.

Note: I removed one paragraph dealing with the Little Flower Community.


And when in recent years the Latino population began to grow beyond the immediate vicinity of Little Flower, they moved to the west, toward the Stockyards, and north from there; and to the south, across the river, and into Capitol Hill. The Capitol Hill Elementary School, built in 1920 at SW 27th and Robinson, is these days about 60 percent Hispanic; Heronville, built in 1928 on SW 29th east of Blackwelder, is about 75 percent. (Heronville, incidentally, is getting a major facelift and expansion from MAPS for Kids.) None of this, of course, was predicted in that 1930 city plan. But cities, being composed of people first and infrastructure second, have a way of evolving that defies easy prognostication. If you've been thinking of Oklahoma City as a white-bread Protestant sort of place, you haven't been paying attention. One of the reasons I write these pieces is simply that for many years I wasn't paying attention either.

Update: A reader has chided me for leaving the impression that this side of the city was always some sort of Spanish-speaking enclave, which of course it wasn't; it was around 1990 (hence, "in recent years") before the Mexican-American community made any serious inroads south of the river. One continuing presence, though, has been Catholicism: Mount St. Mary School on Shartel north of 29th dates to before statehood, and has been an anchor for the southside Catholic community, then largely Irish, now less so, pretty much ever since.

The "Vent" #421
15 Janurary, 2005
Updated 28 December, 2007

| Vent menu | E-mail to Chaz

Copyright © 2005, 2007 by Charles G. Hill

Doug Loudenback
03-29-2009, 09:09 PM
I snagged this from the Beacon.
Thanks, good read. What is the Beacon issue date? I'd like to go to the library and scan it.

I'd planned to go to the Norick Library today but I went to sleep instead during the OU basketball game ... before and after, I was copying Capitol Hill photos from the OHS Star Archives and researching the Oklahoman's archives for early-day Capitol Hill stuff. I started at the earliest available (1901), went through 1907, skipped to the period that the annexation election occurred (on 12/6/1909) through 1911.

I've set up a Capitol Hill folder in my Photobucket account and that's where I'll stick all this stuff for those who are interested: capitolhill pictures by DougLoudenback - Photobucket (http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/capitolhill/) . It's got quite a lot in it already.

papaOU
03-30-2009, 01:17 AM
Here is the link to the article. I say it was from the Beacon but now I am not sure.

The Vent #421
There had almost always been a community of transplanted Mexicans in the city. ... 421. 15 January 2005. Updated 28 December 2007 | Vent menu | E-mail to Chaz ...The Vent #421 (http://www.dustbury.com/vent/vent421.html) - Cached

metro
03-30-2009, 08:06 AM
I've always wondered why is it called Capitol Hill, when the Capitol Complex is several miles north.

SOUTHSIDE GIRL
03-30-2009, 08:12 AM
The Grill on 25th Street, had a copy of the old Capitol Hill map posted on a board. It you get a chance you might go in and see it the new owners sitll have it up. The Beacon should also have something

USG '60
03-30-2009, 11:22 AM
Back in the 50s those of us who went to Grant considered ourselves Capitol Hillians. We were kind of the NEW Capitol Hill High School. Back then we would have defined the lines to have included Hillcrest (so I-240 to the south) and west to Partland. The river on the north and Shiellds on the east. We were proud to be part of Capitol Hill and even though we were ordinarially enemies, when on the northside we were friends.

Doug Loudenback
03-30-2009, 01:00 PM
I've always wondered why is it called Capitol Hill, when the Capitol Complex is several miles north.
The new city ambitiously thought that the area had a chance to become the home of the State Capitol.

Martin
03-30-2009, 01:20 PM
kinda busy now so i don't have time to fully explain and lay out all my evidence...

but i made this map trying to figure out the boundaries of the town incorporated as 'capitol hill'... not so much the region that identifies itself as such today. the map is an excerpt from a 1909 okc map pulled from the ohs archives.

the orange area indicates the 160 acre area that comprises 'capitol hill addition' and the blue area indicates what i hypothesize the boundaries of what was incorporated as 'capitol hill' in 1904. current street names in parentheses. questions/comments appreciated! -M

http://www.magnvs.de/pics/capitol_hill.jpg

Doug Loudenback
03-30-2009, 03:23 PM
Great! I couldn't find this file there, good work!

papaOU
03-30-2009, 06:05 PM
Back in the 50s those of us who went to Grant considered ourselves Capitol Hillians. We were kind of the NEW Capitol Hill High School. Back then we would have defined the lines to have included Hillcrest (so I-240 to the south) and west to Partland. The river on the north and Shiellds on the east. We were proud to be part of Capitol Hill and even though we were ordinarially enemies, when on the northside we were friends.

I agree. I still feel that way. I think now it is more a southside issue. Unfortunately, we may be the last of our breed. Most younger people and kids don't care about our areas tradition and have very little sense of belonging.

papaOU
03-30-2009, 06:07 PM
Great job with map.

papaOU
04-01-2009, 02:25 PM
I was looking at some Osborne Maps and the spelling was Capital Hill. Anyone else run into that?

Martin
04-01-2009, 02:40 PM
yep... i think it's a common misspelling. -M

SoonerGirl26
04-02-2009, 06:52 AM
Hey mmm...thanks for the map! Interesting to see all the former names of the streets. I guess they were changed when Capitol Hill was annexed back into OKCY to comform with their street names (?????). I also didn't realize that "Capitol Hill" went so far east...always thought Shields was the east boundary. Very interesting....thanks!!!

~~~

Doug Loudenback
04-02-2009, 02:36 PM
Hey mmm...thanks for the map! Interesting to see all the former names of the streets. I guess they were changed when Capitol Hill was annexed back into OKCY to comform with their street names (?????). I also didn't realize that "Capitol Hill" went so far east...always thought Shields was the east boundary. Very interesting....thanks!!!

~~~
Hang on ... East Capitol Hill was a platted area in the county, don't know if it was originally part of Okc or not, but it wasn't part of Capitol Hill, the city, I'm almost positive.

Martin
04-02-2009, 02:44 PM
interesting... but platted areas don't exist one-for-one with town limits, right?

the southwest area of what i have designated as 'east capitol hill' is what the map calls 'schilling addition'... i found some articles in the oklahoman discussing this area as 'capitol hill' and using the term 'east capitol hill' as a subset. there was another article that discussed car service going into capitol hill (you can see it on this map) via 'ohio' street which is modern day central... the article writer seemed to be under the impression that this was part of capitol hill. that doesn't make it accurate but that's what gave me the impression.

as for the portion north and east of that... i'm not totally certain. some of the articles i later found regarding those additions refer to them as being in 'okc' instead of using the 'capitol hill' descriptor.

-M

Doug Loudenback
04-02-2009, 03:40 PM
interesting... but platted areas don't exist one-for-one with town limits, right?
-M
Good question, I don't know. I remember seeing lots of stuff about East Capitol Hill when I was researching Capitol Hill (proper) through around 1911, but I didn't look at many of them. One of the Capitol Hillers in this thread seemed to be wary of including area east of Shields as part of the "popular" definition, at least, so I didn't pay a lot of attention. I'll go back right now and have another look.

Doug Loudenback
04-02-2009, 04:34 PM
OK, following up. A quick look through the Oklahoman's archives shows that "East Capitol Hill" must have been a common but not legal description ... the area that I was speaking of as "East Capitol Hill" was, as you said, M, technically "Schilling's Addition," which was an addition to Oklahoma City. However, since the East Capitol Hill term was general, it may well be that other additions north and/or south of Schilling's Addition may have come under the term's umbrella.

The article which shows the Oklahoma City part is an item in the 4/3/1902 Oklahoman:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/capitolhill/eastcapitolhill_4_3_1902.jpg

Several other articles from 1902 to 1910 (where I quit looking) use the general phrase "East Capitol Hill" but it always seems to come back to Schilling's Addition to Oklahoma City.

If Plat maps exist on-line, I'm not aware. Do you know, M (or anyone else)?

Perusing the County Assessor's records for "Schillings Addition" (it doesn't contain the apostrophe there) indicate that the area was bounded something like SE 23 on the north, SE 29th on the south, whatever the 1st east street was on the west (Santa Fe?) and as far east as Stiles on the east. I'll keep looking.

BTW, do you have a link to that map you located, M? I'd like to have a 1st hand look at it.

Martin
04-02-2009, 05:14 PM
schilling's addition is 22nd on the north, 29th on the south, santa fe on the west and byers on the east.

here's a link to the map i used (http://okhistory.cuadra.com/cgi-bin/starfetch.exe?!28repos=B.ARCHIVE&starhost=star-asp.cuadra.com&file=Maps-OHS/CTPMAP.OKC.0014.pdf&mime=application/pdf&expire=1238717351&ip=&starid=okpublic!29/Maps-OHS/CTPMAP.OKC.0014.pdf)

-M

Doug Loudenback
04-02-2009, 06:17 PM
Link didn't work.

Martin
04-02-2009, 07:21 PM
drat... i guess the links expire.

go to the ohs online catalogs. search for "oklahoma city map suburbs" with "match all words" selected. the map should be the only search result returned. if that doesn't work, i'll just copy it up to my webserver.

-M

Doug Loudenback
04-03-2009, 12:07 AM
mmm mmm good. Thanks!

Doug Loudenback
04-03-2009, 11:24 AM
Thanks to the good lead of mmm, I've located some other neat city maps at the OHS website. One, almost certainly a 1911 map which is described in this new thread (http://www.okctalk.com/nostalgia-memories/17419-how-about-great-northwest-boulevard.html), shows the Capitol Hill & surrounding area as being the following:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/capitolhill/okc_capitolhillcrop_1910_1911.jpg

Martin
04-03-2009, 12:17 PM
this is a cool map, too... main reason i chose to use the 1909 map as a base was that it had the "old" street names in capitol hill... this map has more of the contemporary names. -M

Prunepicker
04-13-2009, 12:47 AM
I have never heard that Packingtown was a part of Capitol Hill.

You're right. Packing Town was Packing Town. Capitol Hill was Capitol Hill.

Prunepicker
04-13-2009, 12:54 AM
But, if you're still holding a grudge since and after 1911 on behalf of your
ancestors, well ...

The annexation was only the start. Capitol Hill through the years has been
Okc'c redheaded stepchild. I think even the Grant and S.E. readers would
agree.

As far as I'm concerned, and I just found this thread, Capitol Hill was a place
to go to movies and John A. Brown. I guess that makes the boundaries on
Commerce between Walker and Hudson. Other than that, Capitol didn't
exist anywhere else.

The movies were the Yale, Knob Hill and the Redskin.

Prunepicker
04-13-2009, 12:57 AM
Isn't the area just south of Capitol Hill/29th actually known as Hillcrest? I
don't think it is part of Capitol Hill.

I never thought Hillcrest went that far north. We lived south of 59th and
that area was called Hillcrest.

You may be right. I don't know.

Prunepicker
04-13-2009, 01:00 AM
I snagged this from the Beacon.

Is the Beacon still published? Wow. I remember seeing it but it never
crossed my mind that it was that old.

Live and learn, sometimes.

Prunepicker
04-13-2009, 01:03 AM
Back in the 50s those of us who went to Grant considered ourselves Capitol
Hillians.

Puh-leez! Children may be reading this thread. Grant and Capitol Hill don't
mix. It don't mix no way at all. DANG! Get a clue!

Generals64
04-14-2009, 05:08 PM
Puh-leez! Children may be reading this thread. Grant and Capitol Hill don't
mix. It don't mix no way at all. DANG! Get a clue!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh My Gosh, the nerves have been touched and the arteries have been severed....Help something's wrong..............OMG.....

papaOU
04-17-2009, 03:10 PM
WHERE ARE ALL MY COMPADRES??


And after I have given you the best years of my life!!

I should have listened to mother.............

papaOU
05-12-2009, 10:02 PM
Well kick me in the rear. For some time I have been looking for information about Capitol Hill and searching subject "Capitol Hill, Oklahoma" and kept coming up dry. Very frustrating. Searching last night I suddenly realized that there was never a Capitol Hill, Oklahoma!!!!!!!!!! It's Capitol Hill, Oklahoma Territory. What an idiot..............

Martin
05-13-2009, 05:31 AM
saw an interview the other day of a capitol hill historian... he stated that the incorporated boundaries of capitol hill went from 15th to 44th from north to south and blackwelder to high from west to east. i'm betting that those are the extents, 'cause i doubt the town was perfectly square.

-M

papaOU
05-13-2009, 11:33 AM
saw an interview the other day of a capitol hill historian... he stated that the incorporated boundaries of capitol hill went from 15th to 44th from north to south and blackwelder to high from west to east. i'm betting that those are the extents, 'cause i doubt the town was perfectly square.

-M

Where did you see it and who was this person?

I can accept the east/west boundries better than the north/south. If I remember right the original boundries were the river to the north and 29th street to the south. But then there was the Capitol Hill Golf Course that went from 36th/Grand to 44th. But that was an extension of the original Capitol Hill. East was Shields and West was Mount St. Mary's (Shartel). I have seen some that take it to Western on the West. Seems at one point there was a large saw-mill lumber yard on Western.
Doug pointed out that there was an East Capitol Hill that went from Shields(west) to High (east). Also called the "Schilling Additon". Schilling was mayor of Capitol Hill.

I think I am correct. At least part of it.

Doug Loudenback
05-13-2009, 02:53 PM
saw an interview the other day of a capitol hill historian... he stated that the incorporated boundaries of capitol hill went from 15th to 44th from north to south and blackwelder to high from west to east. i'm betting that those are the extents, 'cause i doubt the town was perfectly square.

-M
I suppose that anything is possible but the historian's data is pretty hard for me to accept without seeing his/her sources. I doubt that 44th even existed when Capitol Hill incorporated as a city in 1904. Blackwelder to High? That's about 25-26 city blocks wide by my reckoning, more or less.

The statistics in the following articles certainly work against the expansive comments of the historian:

February 28, 1904 Oklahoman Article: 722 inhabitants

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/capitolhill/capitolhill_1904_02_28.jpg

April 22, 1904 Oklahoman Article: 133 Voted

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/capitolhill/capitolhill_1904_04_22.jpg

Keeping in mind that city services would presumably need to be supplied to the city's inhabitants, I'm quite skeptical that Capitol Hill had the boundaries stated by the historian.

There should be proof somewhere to settle this, maybe at the downtown library, maybe in archived Oklahoma City ordinances which annexed the city. But, somewhere.

Martin
05-13-2009, 04:03 PM
the gentleman's name is john michael williams and it was an interview from the ward 4 show on channel 20. this video will probably make its way to okchistory.com in the near future.

don't get me wrong, i'm not taking this guy's word as gospel... but check out this excerpt from a 1909 map (i linked a slightly different view of this same map earlier in the thread) that shows that 44th is not a totally crazy proposition. all street names are contemporary on this map. -M

http://www.magnvs.de/pics/capitolhill1909.jpg

Doug Loudenback
05-13-2009, 04:09 PM
We'll see. Like I said, anything is possible ... until source documents are located. After then, not.

papaOU
05-13-2009, 04:26 PM
I am going to make a concentrated effort to find a reproduction map I found a few years ago. Well. Ten or more years ago but that no longer seems a long time. The map shows the streets running east and west are represented as A st, B st,............29th was the south boundary and the river to the north. Some businesses are shown. One that stays with me is a coal yard on what was to become Robinson.