View Full Version : OCU wants to move law school downtown



metro
03-06-2009, 07:41 AM
Oklahoma City University eyes downtown for law school site
by Kelley Chambers
The Journal Record March 6, 2009

OKLAHOMA CITY – The Oklahoma City University law school has roots downtown, and may one day be headed back there to stay.

http://www.journalrecord.com/_images/articles/t_labskc-ocu%20law03-06-09.jpg
Tom McDaniel, president of Oklahoma City University, is contemplating different options as to how to move the OCU law school downtown. (Photo by Maike Sabolich)

In looking ahead at the next 20 years of the university’s growth, OCU President Tom McDaniel would like to see the law school permanently move downtown.But the school would have specific terms and ideally partner with a developer or entity that would construct a building that the law school could inhabit and rent.

McDaniel said the plan is not all that far-fetched, especially as the city looks to develop the area south of downtown over the next decades in the Core to Shore plan. He is not in negotiations with anyone but has made an offer that the law school could pay $1 million a year for the next 50 to 100 years to rent a new space downtown.

“What that does for us is we don’t have to make a capital outlay and we get a great new facility,” McDaniel said.

The downtown location is uncertain. McDaniel said he is open to all the options but would prefer to be close to the courthouse. He would consider existing buildings like the First National Center, or the Mid-America Tower, which will largely empty out when Devon Energy leaves for its new tower a few blocks west. Both of those are options, but unlikely.

“For us, those would both require a substantial investment simply because they’re not configured in a way to accommodate a law library, or a moot courtroom or classrooms,” McDaniel said.

The university also would move its law library downtown. The law school has an enrollment of 579 for spring 2009, 35 full-time faculty members and 40 adjunct faculty members.

The first version of the OCU law school was its predecessor, Epworth University, which began a law program in 1907 with 15 students. The program, then part of OCU, became defunct in the early 1930s.

Over the next decades several law programs popped up around the city, including the Oklahoma City College of Law, which was based downtown at the YMCA building on NW Second Street.

In 1952, OCU purchased the Oklahoma City College of Law and it remained at the YMCA building. The law school was moved on campus in 1956 and shared the Gold Star building. Three years later, it was moved into old barracks on the north side of campus. Two of those barracks were combined into the law building through the 1960s and 1970s.

The law school moved back to the Gold Star building in 1979, and in 1994 the Sarkeys Law Center opened facing NW 23rd Street.

McDaniel said there is the potential to expand the law school to the north by knocking down old dormitories, but he hopes the next move will be into a permanent home downtown.

Oklahoma City Mayor Mick Cornett has talked with McDaniel, and leaders of other schools, about bringing educational institutions downtown. Several schools already offer night courses and MBA programs downtown.

“It lends great vibrancy to your downtown if you can have a larger university setting,” Cornett said. “You want young urban professionals feeling at home downtown.”

But Cornett said the city will work with every university that might consider downtown and is not playing favorites with OCU.

“They have expressed an interest in bringing the law school downtown,” he said. “That being the case, we are interested in trying to make that happen if we can.”

CuatrodeMayo
03-06-2009, 08:12 AM
I could have sworn Mid said this would not happen.

Pete
03-06-2009, 08:17 AM
Fantastic idea for both downtown and OCU.

I know that law center is relatively new but I'm sure it could be used for other classes.

PennyQuilts
03-06-2009, 08:32 AM
The Sarkey's Center was funded in large part by OCU alumni. It would be surprising to see the building, which was built to meet acredidation standards and the specific needs of the law school and community, abandoned for a more downtown location. It is not like it is that far away as it is. It has a large moot court room as well as a smaller one, and is right next door to the law library. Parking is always a problem but I wonder if sending it downtown would make a difference.

I hadn't heard that this was on the boards but I will ask around with some people who might know.

warreng88
03-06-2009, 08:49 AM
I am an OCU alum and I had heard several years ago that they were going to tear down Walker hall and build another Law building connecting the library and the other building but I guess this proposal puts all that to rest...

metro
03-06-2009, 08:52 AM
Here's another great article on the subject:

The Journal Record - Article (http://www.journalrecord.com/article.cfm?recid=96575)

OKCMallen
03-06-2009, 08:54 AM
I don't see the point for the law school, honestly. However, this would be very beneficial to downtown, so I like the idea! Also, I suppose it allows other facets of OCU to grow besides the law school.

Parking is NOT a problem, you just actually have to walk a little and it IS a university- walking is expected. You might park over by the nursing school, but never, not once, did I ever NOT have a space.

Midtowner
03-06-2009, 08:55 AM
I could have sworn Mid said this would not happen.

I'd be really surprised, but now less so.

The trend in Oklahoma's private law schools has been downsizing in order to boost rankings. TU just cut its law school by quite a bit. I do think that in this economy and with the overcrowded state of the profession, OCU would probably be smart to upgrade its 'coolness factor' by locating downtown, eliminating the need of students to own cars while also shrinking its numbers. That sort of move, no doubt, would boost the rankings.

It's not like we're hurting over here, we still turn down more than half of our applicants, but I've recently found the school's decision to buy billboards, etc. to be pretty unnecessary and cast the school in something of a negative light (you don't see any other law school billboards).

As far as the cost goes, I don't think OCU will have a problem financing a move like this. They do much better than breaking even -- a law degree will run pretty close to six-figures right now with the degree being 90 hours @ (currently) $975/credit hour.

Proximity to the courthouses, I think is no big deal. It's not like the D.A. or P.D. are short on legal interns at the moment, and it's not like federal clerkships are going unfilled. What something like this might spur would be more law firms moving downtown in order to take advantage of law students and legal interns being readily available (cheap labor).

A move right now, I think, in the long run, might be good for the school. I just have a hard time seeing them abandoning the current facilities which are still fairly new.

warreng88
03-06-2009, 09:06 AM
I know they recently added a school of theology, I wonder if that could be housed in the law building whenever it is vacated?

OKCMallen
03-06-2009, 09:08 AM
I'd be really surprised, but now less so.

The trend in Oklahoma's private law schools has been downsizing in order to boost rankings. TU just cut its law school by quite a bit. I do think that in this economy and with the overcrowded state of the profession, OCU would probably be smart to upgrade its 'coolness factor' by locating downtown, eliminating the need of students to own cars while also shrinking its numbers. That sort of move, no doubt, would boost the rankings.

It's not like we're hurting over here, we still turn down more than half of our applicants, but I've recently found the school's decision to buy billboards, etc. to be pretty unnecessary and cast the school in something of a negative light (you don't see any other law school billboards).

As far as the cost goes, I don't think OCU will have a problem financing a move like this. They do much better than breaking even -- a law degree will run pretty close to six-figures right now with the degree being 90 hours @ (currently) $975/credit hour.

Proximity to the courthouses, I think is no big deal. It's not like the D.A. or P.D. are short on legal interns at the moment, and it's not like federal clerkships are going unfilled. What something like this might spur would be more law firms moving downtown in order to take advantage of law students and legal interns being readily available (cheap labor).

A move right now, I think, in the long run, might be good for the school. I just have a hard time seeing them abandoning the current facilities which are still fairly new.

It's way worse than that, actually. OCU uses the law school to help subsidize other parts of the university that are always in the red (labs, etc). Lots of school do this.

OCU has a lot of work to do to habilitate its ranking...a LOT. And I'm betting that cutting admissions is NOT what is going to happen... Also, there's a reason that so many people apply to OCU and half get rejected... But that's for a different thread.

Midtowner
03-06-2009, 09:51 AM
OCU has a lot of work to do to habilitate its ranking...a LOT.

That's all assuming they actually want to do the things necessary to rehabilitate the ranking. Don't get me wrong, I think the education here is fine, and coupled with what I'm learning in my internship, I'll be good to go. I don't think there's an issue with the quality of education here, but yeah, the school has some huge issues, tuition price being a biggie.

metro
03-06-2009, 09:55 AM
It's not like we're hurting over here, we still turn down more than half of our applicants, but I've recently found the school's decision to buy billboards, etc. to be pretty unnecessary and cast the school in something of a negative light (you don't see any other law school billboards).

Mid, agreed on the billboards. Any chance you complained about it to the powers that be?

Midtowner
03-06-2009, 09:57 AM
None. I'm going to get my degree and start making money. I'm sure that the powers that be know how tacky this is, but they obviously don't care. It's about as tacky as charging a lot more than anyone else in the state while also being the lowest ranked school in the state. Our Bar passage rates are always up there, so the quality of education is there, but no one here seems to be overly concerned with image.

OKCMallen
03-06-2009, 10:51 AM
None. I'm going to get my degree and start making money. I'm sure that the powers that be know how tacky this is, but they obviously don't care. It's about as tacky as charging a lot more than anyone else in the state while also being the lowest ranked school in the state. Our Bar passage rates are always up there, so the quality of education is there, but no one here seems to be overly concerned with image.

Which is a shame because image/ranking, while arguably superficial quanta, are very important to the school's success and the ability of students to work outside of OKC. Try to get a job in Dallas with an OCU degree that will service your student loans...it ain't easy.

Truly they're doing a disservice to the students. There are wholesale changes that need to be made from when I was there to the recent upheaval regarding Prof. Johnson's lawsuit. I'd like to see President McDaniel's influence increased over the law school. The downtown move could be a pretty cool way to start fresh.

Midtowner
03-06-2009, 11:25 AM
Truly they're doing a disservice to the students. There are wholesale changes that need to be made from when I was there to the recent upheaval regarding Prof. Johnson's lawsuit. I'd like to see President McDaniel's influence increased over the law school. The downtown move could be a pretty cool way to start fresh.

I agree with all of the above.

And Professor Johnson is a great lady. If she's alleging that stuff happened, I don't doubt that it did although some of the things alleged, e.g., the book club, were kind of silly.

For me, OCU was mostly about location. I wanted to work in my father's law practice through law school, have a good private practice internship and form a relationship with our clients. For me, OCU makes a lot of financial sense. That said, I doubt there are many people in my situation. I had the grades to transfer to OU (or just about anywhere), but I stuck it out.

Considering the amount of money the school has made off of me, the likelihood that they'll ever see any alumni support from me is pretty small.

OKCMallen
03-06-2009, 11:28 AM
I'm a fan of Danne, myself.

PennyQuilts
03-06-2009, 12:31 PM
A lot of people can work and go to OCU who wouldn't be able to do that at OU. It provides a route for many working students, especially the ones already supporting a family.

bombermwc
03-06-2009, 01:29 PM
As an OCU alum (not law school), most students won't even care. The law students typically have zero interaction with the rest of the student body anyway. It's not like they ever use any other part of the campus besides the law library. It's a great way for the campus to gain another building that could easily be renovated for other purposes.

The business school used to have classes downtown and consolidated back to campus.

If it were OU, I could see it as being a good move...having a campus closer in town. But with OCU only being a couple miles up the road, it just seems completely stupid. Are those few miles that much to drive? Are those couple hundred feet to walk to your car that much? Think about the elevator time and walking you'll do downtown. Not to mention the time it takes to get OUT of downtown. And is a single comparatively small structure going to make any difference? Probably not.

The budget issues aren't even really relevant. It's not up to the students to decide tutition. OCU has never apologized for it's tuition rate, not should it. The formula has been good for the school since McDaniel took over and it's allowing the school to grow physically and programatically. And since overall enrollment is steady, there just isn't an arguement to decrease it.

OKCMallen
03-06-2009, 01:55 PM
As an OCU alum (not law school), most students won't even care. The law students typically have zero interaction with the rest of the student body anyway. It's not like they ever use any other part of the campus besides the law library. It's a great way for the campus to gain another building that could easily be renovated for other purposes.

The business school used to have classes downtown and consolidated back to campus.

If it were OU, I could see it as being a good move...having a campus closer in town. But with OCU only being a couple miles up the road, it just seems completely stupid. Are those few miles that much to drive? Are those couple hundred feet to walk to your car that much? Think about the elevator time and walking you'll do downtown. Not to mention the time it takes to get OUT of downtown. And is a single comparatively small structure going to make any difference? Probably not.

The budget issues aren't even really relevant. It's not up to the students to decide tutition. OCU has never apologized for it's tuition rate, not should it. The formula has been good for the school since McDaniel took over and it's allowing the school to grow physically and programatically. And since overall enrollment is steady, there just isn't an arguement to decrease it.

Well, which is it?

jbrown84
03-06-2009, 02:52 PM
Seems like a good idea to me.

metro
03-06-2009, 03:08 PM
I agree...

Also, bomber, I think you're missing the entire point of them moving downtown. It's not about convenience, it's about image.

OKCMallen
03-06-2009, 03:31 PM
It's a great way to create room on-campus at OCU since there's really not room to grow laterally. It's a great way for them to invest in downtown OKC. It's a great way to maintain a higher presence amongst law firms to hire students. It's a great way to expose students to the practice of law and not just the theory. It's a great way to get out of the pretty-on-the-outside-but-woeful-on-the-inside law library.

kevinpate
03-07-2009, 03:50 AM
I wish their students well, wherever the admin. elects to soak them at. 8^)

bombermwc
03-09-2009, 08:26 AM
I guess I wasn't real clear OKCMallen. I'm not really in favor of it. My first point was to say, it frees up a building on campus. But that's not really a huge benefit to me. It never takes long to get enough donations to build something on that campus. Plus OCU doesn't build until they have all the money for a project, unlike other schools that build on credit.

As for image...OCU is an educational institution held to the highest degree. A degree from OCU is worth a lot around here. As for the law school, they've had problems getting folks past the exam and then really being good lawyers. Do I care though....no not really. Why is that? Because like I said before, the law school has ZERO interaction with the rest of campus. A regular campus student can't really have an attachment to something that doesn't ever interact with them. Even the folks that do pre-law on campus often don't really come back onto campus for anything. The roll into that corner of campus and park, go to class, and roll back out. They don't attend events outside of their own buildings, they don't go to the Union, etc. So even if it didnt exist all together, I don't think much of the campus would really care that much.

Besides that, we're talking a small number of students, therefore a small impact wherever they go. Like I said before, they're more likely to be a minor contributor no matter what part of C2S they go to. OCU won't own the building as McDaniel said, so it won't have much influence on what it looks like. It's basically going to be office space occupied by a law school...just like it was when it was downtown. It's not exciting, it's not fancy, it's just an office tenant.

metro
03-09-2009, 08:31 AM
with 500+ students + faculty roaming around downtown and adding to the diversity....

Midtowner
03-09-2009, 09:15 AM
As for the law school, they've had problems getting folks past the exam and then really being good lawyers.

It's hard to say what a "really good lawyer" is, at least insofar as you want to define it. Of course, you might consider a really good lawyer to be one of those guys with OCU Law degrees who have campus buildings named after them... you know, like Homsey.

As far as Bar passage rates, I don't know what the hell you're talking about. Last July we had 94% pass the Bar.

kevinpate
03-09-2009, 09:53 AM
> Last July we had 94% pass the Bar.

Nice, I don't know if that percentage is now the norm for OCU, but hopefully so. It strikes me as higher than in years gone by.

Midtowner
03-09-2009, 09:57 AM
It's been in that range for several years now. At one time, the passage rate was actually pretty abysmal, but since then, the school has taken the necessary steps to get things in line. Now all the law schools in the state have around the same percentage passing -- usually in the 90-percent range.

kevinpate
03-09-2009, 10:01 AM
Thanks for the clarification and update midtowner. I knew there was a time the school ran a consistent third in pass percentage. Improvement on that point is good for all in the long run.

yukong
03-09-2009, 11:00 AM
...the law school has ZERO interaction with the rest of campus. A regular campus student can't really have an attachment to something that doesn't ever interact with them. Even the folks that do pre-law on campus often don't really come back onto campus for anything. The roll into that corner of campus and park, go to class, and roll back out. They don't attend events outside of their own buildings, they don't go to the Union, etc. So even if it didnt exist all together, I don't think much of the campus would really care that much.


That's too bad. When I was at OCU Law, back in the early 80s, we had a lot of interaction with the rest of the school. Of course, that was back when the entire law school was in the Gold Star Building. We didn't really have any lounges or places to hang out, other then the library. So we were in the student center every day. Some days for several hours. We usually had lunch there in the snack bar. We went to the old gym and played ball with the undergrads on a regular basis. We used the chapel basement for studying. We went to programs in the auditorium, etc. We were regularly involved with the rest of the school. Sorry to hear that is no longer the case.

Midtowner
03-09-2009, 11:04 AM
Thanks for the clarification and update midtowner. I knew there was a time the school ran a consistent third in pass percentage. Improvement on that point is good for all in the long run.

All three trade off these days in being tops in that category and the difference is always negligible.

OKCMallen
03-09-2009, 01:46 PM
The year BEFORE I took the bar, OCU and TU were more or less tied for distant second, about 10%-age points behind OU.

I think OCU law has a bigger impact on the campus that the poster above states, and I think he's not really fully considering the benefits of gaining an empty, student-ready classroom building. It's not about money- it's about available space in that part of town. Dedicating that building (and the parking) to undergraduate programs at OCU would be a noticeable change.

I think it would be great to be downtown the more I think about it. Heck, I think it would improve the quality of life of the students....sorry to say, but law school is very time-intensive, and I can think of better places to hang around than 23rd and Penn.

bombermwc
03-10-2009, 09:01 AM
If it's up to 94%, I'll stand corrected, but that hasn't been the norm. OCU has lagged behind TU and OU for some time in the Law School arena, and it's common knowledge.

I don't personally consider the Homsey's to be "great lawyers". There's just a lot of them and they've managed to make a nice buck. Having a large cash flow doesn't neccessarily mean you're a good lawyer.

And the current law building is NOT classroom ready. Yes there are some classrooms in there, but it would take money to convert the law specific spaces into useable space for other fields. Yes that's cheaper than building a new building, but it would end up much like the old Meinders did where significant renovations would be required to meet the needs of the new classrooms. What's needed on campus right now is a replacement for Loefler. So unless you can transform some of that space into large computer and science labs, then you're going to need money to do renovations.

OKCMallen
03-10-2009, 09:05 AM
And the current law building is NOT classroom ready.

Have they stopped giving lectures at OCU? :fighting2

Midtowner
03-10-2009, 09:30 AM
If it's up to 94%, I'll stand corrected, but that hasn't been the norm. OCU has lagged behind TU and OU for some time in the Law School arena, and it's common knowledge.

We've lagged OU in acceptance standards (signficantly) for awhile. It's probably always been the case. TU though? Not a huge difference there. As far as Bar passage rates, there's really not much difference from school to school though. All three take turns being #1.


I don't personally consider the Homsey's to be "great lawyers". There's just a lot of them and they've managed to make a nice buck. Having a large cash flow doesn't neccessarily mean you're a good lawyer.

I'm glad you've found a better set of criteria for what it is to be a good lawyer than cash earnings. What exactly are you basing your assessment on? Your vast and broad knowledge of the competence of various members of the legal profession?

OKCMallen
03-10-2009, 11:44 AM
We've lagged OU in acceptance standards (signficantly) for awhile. It's probably always been the case. TU though? Not a huge difference there. As far as Bar passage rates, there's really not much difference from school to school though. All three take turns being #1.



I'm glad you've found a better set of criteria for what it is to be a good lawyer than cash earnings. What exactly are you basing your assessment on? Your vast and broad knowledge of the competence of various members of the legal profession?

The kid is just arguing to argue at this point. Although he brought to light one thing: I didn't realize there was contempt for the law school amongst the undergrads at OCU.

Midtowner
03-10-2009, 01:09 PM
The kid is just arguing to argue at this point. Although he brought to light one thing: I didn't realize there was contempt for the law school amongst the undergrads at OCU.

I don't know whether or not he's representative of all of them, but I guess they might have some problems with the fact that we now have our own parking areas. Beats the heck out of me.

They really shouldn't feel contempt considering the fact that the law school subsidizes a great deal of the undergrad activity on that campus.

OKCMallen
03-10-2009, 03:03 PM
I don't know whether or not he's representative of all of them, but I guess they might have some problems with the fact that we now have our own parking areas. Beats the heck out of me.

They really shouldn't feel contempt considering the fact that the law school subsidizes a great deal of the undergrad activity on that campus.

They should be happy as clams the law school makes all that money and takes a minimum of space, parking, and student services.

lasomeday
03-10-2009, 03:35 PM
OK... OK! Stop arguing. We know you guys are lawyers already. Stop acting like them.

The point of this is to say. Yes, the law school downtown will be good, or bad, not pass the bar rates.

The Law School Downtown will be a welcome additition to the mix of developments that will be going up in the next 10 years downtown. If it happens.

PennyQuilts
03-10-2009, 03:37 PM
Lawyers don't argue with each other just for sport. There is too big a chance we'd lose - that's no fun. Yup, if we're arguing, better pay us, baby.

lasomeday
03-10-2009, 03:45 PM
LOL! Yeah, when I get my stimulus check I will mail you your 50%.

PennyQuilts
03-10-2009, 03:53 PM
That will be, what... $6.25. Fine. Your check is your receipt...

Crap, I'll have to pay taxes on that...

OKCMallen
03-10-2009, 04:42 PM
OK... OK! Stop arguing. We know you guys are lawyers already. Stop acting like them.

The point of this is to say. Yes, the law school downtown will be good, or bad, not pass the bar rates.

The Law School Downtown will be a welcome additition to the mix of developments that will be going up in the next 10 years downtown. If it happens.

We were agreeing with each other....for the record... :woowoo:

bombermwc
03-12-2009, 07:27 AM
Well Midtowner, like usual you confirm my theory that you're a jerk. Nice attitude....I'm sure you'll fit into the lawyer world nicely. I may not be 50, but I'm also not some punk 21 year old college kid either.

Again, as for the current building being classroom ready, if you read anything in my post then you'd know what the problem is. OCU isn't in need of plain classroom lecture space. Walker Center isn't full by any means and there are clasrooms in other parts of the campus that handle the loads if there ever is overflow. So if Law did leave campus, just using the rooms as lecture halls would be a waste of space. Just because a building exists, doesn't mean that it is being made the most of.

Subsidizing though, I hardly think so. If you took a look at the finances of the departments on campus, I think you'd be surprised how many other departments pull plenty of their own weight in comparison. The Law faculty is expensive compared to other departments. And there are a lot of resources (like the law library) that cost money to maintain that no one else on campus utilize. Look at the business school for goodness sake. You don't think all those MBA students are fluffing up the books of the school???

Like a typical lawyer, I feel you are overemphasizing your impact and importance.

But it's all irrelevant anyway, the law school won't move. McDaniel isn't exactlly excited about it.

kevinpate
03-12-2009, 07:42 AM
For the fun of it, I'll presume moving law to DT is both good idea and a done deal. maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but it's pretend time so who cares.

So, OCU Alum's, what are the three next best uses of the current law center at the sw corner of campus, which may or may not have a relationship to renovation expenses.

OKCMallen
03-12-2009, 09:21 AM
Well Midtowner, like usual you confirm my theory that you're a jerk. Nice attitude....I'm sure you'll fit into the lawyer world nicely. I may not be 50, but I'm also not some punk 21 year old college kid either.

Again, as for the current building being classroom ready, if you read anything in my post then you'd know what the problem is. OCU isn't in need of plain classroom lecture space. Walker Center isn't full by any means and there are clasrooms in other parts of the campus that handle the loads if there ever is overflow. So if Law did leave campus, just using the rooms as lecture halls would be a waste of space. Just because a building exists, doesn't mean that it is being made the most of.

Subsidizing though, I hardly think so. If you took a look at the finances of the departments on campus, I think you'd be surprised how many other departments pull plenty of their own weight in comparison. The Law faculty is expensive compared to other departments. And there are a lot of resources (like the law library) that cost money to maintain that no one else on campus utilize. Look at the business school for goodness sake. You don't think all those MBA students are fluffing up the books of the school???

Like a typical lawyer, I feel you are overemphasizing your impact and importance.

But it's all irrelevant anyway, the law school won't move. McDaniel isn't exactlly excited about it.

Because this post doesn't at all indicate that you're managing the Jerk Store...

It ain't hard- an urban university with currently no space to grow laterally gains the use of a building with lecture halls, a smallish auditorium, office space, parking, etc. You're right- this is totally worthless to undergrad programs at OCU. :doh:

warreng88
03-12-2009, 09:21 AM
So, OCU Alum's, what are the three next best uses of the current law center at the sw corner of campus, which may or may not have a relationship to renovation expenses.

I would say one good use would be for the new School of Theology. I believe it was started a couple of years ago, but the closest good one is the Perkins School of Theology at SMU. Also the Law Library could be converted to the School of Religion library or something. I will ask my dad (who is on the board of trustees) if he knows of any future plans for that building.

bombermwc
03-12-2009, 02:26 PM
What the crap are you talking about no room to grow? OCU's masterplan includes buying up everything between Classen and Pennsylvania from 23rd to 30th. And if you don't think they are making progress, check out a map from 2000 and compare it to now. They already own land on both sides of the law school and have plenty open empty land at the north end of campus. They've been buying up land all over the place parcel by parcel for decades for continued growth. They buy the land bit by bit whether they have an immediate need for it or not. They also don't always bulldoze the house once they own the land. That's what allowed them to build the softball field where it is now...because they had purchased pieces over the years so they didn't have to front the expense all at once. If they didn't ever do this work, they would have never grown. The school will never be "out of room".

If they wanted to build a new building, the land south of Freede would be the most logical for current space. Otherwise there is land west of the baseball field. Bulldoze Loefler and you've got more surface parking too....not that they need it.

The Gold Star building would be a great place for the Theology school. I believe the school of religion started there when it was just clasroom space. I can double check that from my Century of Service book from the centennial.

Midtowner
03-12-2009, 02:31 PM
The Gold Star building would be a great place for the Theology school. I believe the school of religion started there when it was just clasroom space. I can double check that from my Century of Service book from the centennial.

That's correct. In fact, I think it still has "school of theology" or somesuch engraved on it.

If OCU does start building north, I would think it's in their best interest to *only* do graduate facilities on that north end of campus, e.g., a new law school. One of the best things I think, for undergrads, about OCU's campus is that it's extremely walkable. Start moving things away from the dorms/apartments, you risk losing that appeal.

bombermwc
03-12-2009, 02:38 PM
AMEN. That was one of the best things about going there. I could park behind the library and be smack dab in the middle of campus. You can treat your car like a locker and walk less than 5 minutes in any direction. With the new dorm, the west side of campus is a little closer than it was just because it's in the old Frederickson Fieldhouse land.

What's interesting is that you're seeing north campus turning athletic. There's a stretch from east to west with the Soccer, Softball, and Baseball fields....plus Freede. If Tennis ever comes back as part of the push to D1, I would imagine that will plop into the same area.

I don't really know that you can call any area focussed for graduate though. Each group stays within their own building...Music/Busines/Comp Sci/Law. And they are spread from one corner to the other. If Law built on the East side of campus, then it would be much closer to the vast majority of Graduate school students...ie Music and Business.

Midtowner
03-12-2009, 02:51 PM
Why I say graduate-focused is that graduate students tend to remain in their own facilities while undergrads go everywhere. With music and business, you have a lot of undergrads who use other buildings. With the law school, you have only doctoral students and they go nowhere but the law school.

I don't know whether there are any other comparable programs at OCU.

OKCMallen
03-12-2009, 03:12 PM
What the crap are you talking about no room to grow? OCU's masterplan includes buying up everything between Classen and Pennsylvania from 23rd to 30th. And if you don't think they are making progress, check out a map from 2000 and compare it to now. They already own land on both sides of the law school and have plenty open empty land at the north end of campus. They've been buying up land all over the place parcel by parcel for decades for continued growth. They buy the land bit by bit whether they have an immediate need for it or not. They also don't always bulldoze the house once they own the land. That's what allowed them to build the softball field where it is now...because they had purchased pieces over the years so they didn't have to front the expense all at once. If they didn't ever do this work, they would have never grown. The school will never be "out of room".



Look, I know this is a flame, and I know I might get a mod warning here, but you're sort of being an idiot. If the university has to BUY and BULLDOZE, then there's no room to grow laterally.

Look, you're simply wrong. :whiteflag Gaining use of Sarkey's would be beneficial to OCU undergrad programs in at least a few ways. End of story, and arguments to the contrary are futile.

Anyway, let's get the thread back on topic. It would be awesome for OCU Law to be downtown.

bombermwc
03-12-2009, 03:32 PM
Well just because you say so, doesn't make it true either. Now whether you intended it to come off this way or not, your previous post sounded like they had no options besides reusing the building because there was no where to go. That statement makes the impression that the school is locked and can't buy and bulldoze to grow. That's not logical because that's how most anyone grows. No one is built in the middle of a field with no surrounding structures....everyone buys and bulldozes, even OU and OSU....hello athletic village, would you say OSU had no room to grow latterally? No.

I never said reusing the building wouldn't be benefecial either. What I said was that it's not configured in a manner that would be immediately useful to other departments. It's set up for a law school...that's it's purpose. Do you need a dean's office and a mock court room if it becomes a Theology school or science building? As I said, it would simply take money to convert the place.

Simply stating that any opinion besides your own is wrong isn't constructive either. There's healthy disagreement and discussion, and then there's childish name calling. I'm open to discussing different options. I still heartily believe moving downtown wouldn't benefit the school or the university.


-----

Agreed Midtowner, since there aren't any other programs that don't involve undergad in their buildings, it's hard to compare facility useage. Comp Sci is about as close as you can get departmentally because there are so few undergrads left....it's almost all masters students. But then that facility is used by other departments as well. I guess maybe nursing would be as close as you can get. Their new building looks like it's going to compliment their current layout very well. It's definitely a growing school on campus.

PennyQuilts
03-12-2009, 04:29 PM
Like a typical lawyer, I feel you are overemphasizing your impact and importance.

HEY!!!! :numchucks

OKCMallen
03-13-2009, 07:47 AM
Well just because you say so, doesn't make it true either. Now whether you intended it to come off this way or not, your previous post sounded like they had no options besides reusing the building because there was no where to go. That statement makes the impression that the school is locked and can't buy and bulldoze to grow. That's not logical because that's how most anyone grows. No one is built in the middle of a field with no surrounding structures....everyone buys and bulldozes, even OU and OSU....hello athletic village, would you say OSU had no room to grow latterally? No.

I never said reusing the building wouldn't be benefecial either. What I said was that it's not configured in a manner that would be immediately useful to other departments. It's set up for a law school...that's it's purpose. Do you need a dean's office and a mock court room if it becomes a Theology school or science building? As I said, it would simply take money to convert the place.

Simply stating that any opinion besides your own is wrong isn't constructive either. There's healthy disagreement and discussion, and then there's childish name calling. I'm open to discussing different options. I still heartily believe moving downtown wouldn't benefit the school or the university.


-----

Agreed Midtowner, since there aren't any other programs that don't involve undergad in their buildings, it's hard to compare facility useage. Comp Sci is about as close as you can get departmentally because there are so few undergrads left....it's almost all masters students. But then that facility is used by other departments as well. I guess maybe nursing would be as close as you can get. Their new building looks like it's going to compliment their current layout very well. It's definitely a growing school on campus.

Looks like you opened the proverbial can o' worms on personal insults earlier in the thread.

And I'm not saying any other opinion is wrong. I'm saying your statements of fact are wrong...and so wrong that it borders on stupid.

I remember being young and naive once upon a time...

bombermwc
03-13-2009, 10:11 AM
And I'm not saying any other opinion is wrong. I'm saying your statements of fact are wrong...and so wrong that it borders on stupid.

I remember being young and naive once upon a time...

Again, your opinion dude. I don't agree with you on that one.

And if your profile here is right, I believe I'm actually at least as old as you, if not older....so give up on the age crap.