I know there was previously some discussion in regards to Mills Malls so I decided to step up and do something about it instead of mere talk. The following is a reply I received after sending a through business climate summary and proposal to the Mills Corp.


Mr. Newlon,
Thanks for your suggestion and for your kind offer to assist. We have considered Oklahoma City previously for possible location of a 'Mills Mall', but have determined that it is not a market in which we are currently interested. Many other parts of the country have larger population bases with acceptable competitive environments, so for the present we are concentrating on those markets. We will, however, from time to time continue to review Oklahoma City as a future possibility.
Respectfully,
Ramsay R. Walker
Director, Land Acquisition

I know there was previously some discussion in regards to Mills Malls so I decided to step up and do something about it instead of mere talk. The following is a reply I received after sending a through business climate summary and proposal to the Mills Corp.


Mr. Newlon,
Thanks for your suggestion and for your kind offer to assist. We have considered Oklahoma City previously for possible location of a 'Mills Mall', but have determined that it is not a market in which we are currently interested. Many other parts of the country have larger population bases with acceptable competitive environments, so for the present we are concentrating on those markets. We will, however, from time to time continue to review Oklahoma City as a future possibility.
Respectfully,
Ramsay R. Walker
Director, Land Acquisition

If you really want to help the situation, go check with the Chamber of Commerce. They have some amazing EXCELLENT demographic info on OKC (had to use it once). Not sure what it costs, but I think one could make an excellent case for our market size and ability to support such a business based on demographics alone.

You'd have to really care about getting a Mills Mall though.

Well it would be nice however I think it is a project SoonerRiceGrad should focus on. I'm currently busy with school as well as the Lake Hefner and downtown electronic billboard projects.

I think any type of mall like that would do wonders to the local economy. A Mills mall or even something like a Chelsea Property Group mall. (a Simon Company) would do wonders. Chelsea is the world's largest owner and operator of manufacturers' outlet centers. Simon owns Penn Square Mall and Eastland and Woodland Hills in Tulsa.

It looks to me like these type of malls (Mills and Chelsea) like to locate themselves in surburb cities.

I think the west side of the metro could definetely support one. Somewhere out on I-40 past westgate marketplace or off the turnpike and 39th area. At one time they had one planned years ago.

Thanks metro for doing the research on this by contacting the Mills company. That's basically what I've been trying to say for awhile. Market studies show that OKC can't support another major mall. New strip centers aren't helping that market trend any.

Well... they must not know much about Oklahoma City, because I would think it would be sure fire deal, once you figure in the amount of Oklahomans heading down to Dallas. And, you have people in Kansas, Arkansas, and towards Wichita Falls and Amarillo that would probably come to Oklahoma City to shop. When I look at these things, the mills malls, the pro teams, I think regional. I think Tulsa would have a better job of drawing Arkansas and Kansas fans into such a pro football establishment, and that OKC could draw in shoppers from a large area, because I wouldn't forget our Texas Panhandle neighbors to the west.

I'd rather get a Galleria style mall than a mills mall.

Note: Oklahoma has plenty of upscale shopping venues. We have no outlet malls whatsoever. But, yes, I would rather have a Galleria too. But a Galleria is more likely to happen because of Bricktown, so I am not going to worry about it.

I am just curious to find out... how many think OKC could support a Galleria style mall??? I could maybe see an outlet mall... a Mills Mall...... but..Galleria style mall.... in OKC???

I am just curious... is that a realistic dream or a fantasy??? (no offense intended to anyone.. just curious)

I could see a Galleria in Bricktown or somewhere along Lake Hefner. Those two areas have a real local flavor too.

Bricktownguy, I think you bring up a good point. Due to our population density and average income, I don't think OKC could support a mall exactly like the Dallas or Houston Galleria. But, I could see something more the size of Northpark Mall downtown, with two major upscale department stores on each end (like Saks and Macy's) and upscale shops like Gucci, Polo, Guess, Fossil, etc. in between. Actually a multilevel mall more like 50 Penn Place with two major upscale anchors on each end might be a success downtown.

But, if we can't land stores like that at Penn Square, we'll probably have a tough time landing stores like that in a downtown mall.

Instead of a Galleria style mall downtown, I think we should look at something similar to Spring Creek Plaza in Edmond.....an upscale shopping village. Possibly the Town Center could become this vision.

Concerning a Mills Mall....again, I question population densities. A smaller version of Grapevine Mills could probably survive, but I don't think a mall the same size as Grapevine Mills would make it. Outlet Malls of America was originally a good concept, but it soon fell trough the cracks. Now, the mall area has been enclosed and it's nothing more than a shopping center.

Unfortunately, the performance of the Tanger Outlet Mall in Stroud still haunts us. It wasn't rebuilt after the May 3rd tornados because it wasn't really profitable when it was open.

Our income levels do not haunt us... because we have more purchasing parity than most Americans due to our low cost of living. You know that.

I decided this will be the idea for my blog today.

http://okcurbanite-suburbanite.blogspot.com/

Our income levels do not haunt us... because we have more purchasing parity than most Americans due to our low cost of living. You know that.

I decided this will be the idea for my blog today.

http://okcurbanite-suburbanite.blogspot.com/

Problem is...due to our low cost of living, upscale chains aren't able to charge as much for their merchandise.

That is our problem, not theirs. They don't change their retail prices for us, we suffer slightly in this way, but we more than make up for in real estate.

I had a friend that worked at the management office at the Tanger Outlet Mall in Stroud. He had told me that corporate Tanger offices had not been bothered with Tanger's performance in Stroud even 2-4 years before the May 3rd tornado. He told me this even before the May 3rd tornado... so its not like he had bad feelings towards Stanley Tanger.

If my memory serves right... Tanger in Stroud had about 50 - 70 stores. I do not know how something that size could not survive financially in Oklahoma.

I believe its only a matter of time.. before we can attract another outlet mall company... I do not mean in a grand scale.. but I can vision something close to the Tanger Outlet Mall in Stroud.

I agree with Patrick.....a smaller version of Grapevine Mills could probably survive.

Places like Penn Square can't even get a Macy's... how will other metro malls?

Sometimes I think we let our mind gets ahead of us... and drift off into a fantasy world. (although that world may be a great thing for OKC)

That is our problem, not theirs. They don't change their retail prices for us, we suffer slightly in this way, but we more than make up for in real estate.

Our problem is their problem. If we "suffer slightly", they will not be able to sustain their stores here. We have some of the most affordable housing in the country, but we also have some of the lowest salaries. Retailers will look at our aggregate income, density, and median household income, and say, "Forget it. There's not enough dollars circulating to make it work." You need disposable income.

I agree that we can be aggresive and make a case for some specific retail operations for some areas of the city. There's no rule that says that a store has to be the first one to make a move. But I question whether a Mills mall would be the best thing (or even be successful) in the city. To echo what Patrick said before, the mall is a dying breed of retail. I envision higher end lifestyle centers for downtown.

Our problem is their problem. If we "suffer slightly", they will not be able to sustain their stores here.

I second that motion, floater!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No. Maybe this will be my blog topic tomorrow, but let me mention a few points. We have more purchasing parity than New Yorkers... or most Americans. We may make 2/3 what an American makes, but we pay 1/3 or less for real estate. This gives us a higher purchasing parity. So... to heck with "lowest income". We have more extra money than Americans to begin with.

No. Maybe this will be my blog topic tomorrow, but let me mention a few points. We have more purchasing parity than New Yorkers... or most Americans. We may make 2/3 what an American makes, but we pay 1/3 or less for real estate. This gives us a higher purchasing parity. So... to heck with "lowest income". We have more extra money than Americans to begin with.

New York, San Francisco, and DC are extreme examples. Anyway, if that is true, what are we spending that extra money on? Is our level of saving much higher than the rest of America?

Theoretically, it should be. We pay less for gas, but we use more because of our sprawl, which we don't notice because of our stellar transportation system, which we pay for. If we had less sprawl, we would have higher land values and real estate would cost more... it's very complicated.

Places in America that cost much more than Oklahoma:

Colorado
California
Oregon
Washington state
DC
Florida
ALL OF NEW ENGLAND
Minnesota
Illinois
Wisconsin
Indiana
Michigan
_________

A good deal of America.

In 2003, Oklahoma's per capita personal income was 84 percent of the national average, so concretely, we make 16 percent less than the national average. Mississippi, the nation's poorest state, makes 72 percent of the national average.

Hey, that's pretty good for us...

I'd rather not our pride be based just on "we're not Mississippi" or "we're not Arkansas". But I like your appreciation for what we do have.

Obviously, I don't know, but I just have a hunch that upscale retailers (regardless of market studies) would have success in the OKC market. Macy's, Sak's and the like...

I have been over stressing Luke's sentence since I came here, no more comment necessary. It will become more evident as my blog develops, as I know you all will be reading it, he-he.

My pride was not that we are better than the sorry South, but that we make 84% of the national income, but pay much less than that for real easte? Can you find the real estate figures? Don't do cost of living, that factors groceries... which are somehow more expensive in Oklahoma. Beats me, we do have a grocery tax, but, I mean, still! I know that homes in Boston, Mpls, Chicago, Seattle, California, and Miami cost nearly 4 or more times that of an Oklahoma home, which I would say costs about $100,000 on average.

My hunch is that if Oklahoma salaries went up, so would the cost of things. Not everything, but a lot of things. If all of a sudden, our per capita income jumped from the low- mid twenties to the mid thirties, a lot of prices would go up -- including real estate. Producers/retailers would not accept lower prices if they knew people could pay more. It's true that for some national chains, the cost of things does not vary much. But those businesses are the ones that would have difficulty surviving.

In this case, I think Texas cities are a model in that they enjoy higher salaries from higher paying jobs, but the cost of living is still very much reasonable.

But onto Luke's point about Saks or Macy's doing well. Does anybody know how Saks is doing in Utica Square? That might be a good indicator.

The problem is that out of state producers/retailers are having to lower their prices on merchandise to meet our standard of living. Thus, they're not making as much profit when Okies buy merchandise, as compared to when Californians purchase the same merchandise for much more. Money is money.

On to Luke's comment. I do think the OKC market could support a few upscale stores likes Macy's and Saks, just not a lot like a complete Galleria upscale complex. 1 or 2 upscale department stores in downtown might be a possiblity.

Prior to 50 Penn adding Olive Garden in the East parking lot, I always felt adding 2 upscale department stores, one on the east side and one on the west, would've made a pretty nice upscale mall for OKC. Guess that's not a possibility now sine Olive Garden is out in the east parking lot.

I think Saks does fine, but Sak's as a chain struggles somewhat, they just closed the KC store on the plaza, but it's not the only upscale department store in Utica, there is also Miss Jackson's which is owned by the Helmrichs who own Utica Square. It's in some ways even more upscale than Saks, they have more of a home store than the Tulsa's Saks but don't have Men's clothing. Aberson's on Brookside is a good store and it covers upscale mens clothing pretty well, but it's more a very large specialty store than a true department store. There also is a new store being built in Owasso at the new Smith Farm Marketplace called Belks, I'm not familar with it, but it is supposed to be about like a Macy's or a Nordstrom. Not as expensive as Saks but higher than Dillards. Several years ago I had heard that Nordstom was looking at putting a store in at Utica, but I think that went with the Tulsa economy, maybe they will look again later as the economy recovers, but Utica has now largely filled the space where Dillard's was before Utica kicked them out. I have heard that Woodland would like Sears to be gone and replaced with a more upscale store but who knows when that lease is up.

we can support upscale retail and a newoutlet or galleria mall, just not on a dallas grandiouse scale, i am a real estate speculator and common sense would tell me we can alone. many of you keep comparing us to the past and you need to compare us to the new OKC. we have been robbed of adequate retail for many years and it is long over due. the problem with having more higher paying jobs is we need more educated people, especially masters and doctors. the coasts have a significant number more per capita

The Tulsa economy went south... to Oklahoma City and Dallas, along with Austin's... which went north to Oklahoma City and Dallas.

Tulsa's economy went south to Houston. What happened to Austin's?

What's interesting about Macy's is that I don't think it's really as upscale as it used to be. Either that or OKC has really gotten screwed. Kona, Hawaii (pop. maybe 85,000) has a Macy's and it is a free-standing building next to a K-Mart and a crappy movie theatre.

There will now be Macy's in OKC as Foley's converts to Macy's-Foleys or just Macy's after Federated's purchase of May Department Stores Inc. Also look for Belk to make its OKC debut in the very near future.

Is it for sure that Foley's will convert and will it just be a name change or a real upgrade?

Federated bought our major department stores here in the Seattle region (called Bon Marche or the BON for short). For a while, they were sporting the name Bon Macy's but recently dropped that altogether and revamped the stores into full blown Macy's.

The merchandise is similar to what the Bon had but the "new" Macy's are a bit more upscale than the Bon was. It's a little closer to Nordstrom (Seattle's other upscale department store) but more like Sears in that you can get just about anything (which is not the case at Nordy's).

So, I would expect the same in OKC and texas (the hq of Foleys). They may call it Macy Foley's or just Foley's for a while but expect the stores to convert into Macy's and be a bit more upscale than Foley's is/was.

It would be very nice if Macy's would build an anchor store downtown!!! I think OKC needs to work on this, especially with the MALL concept dying out. There really are not much shopping options in the central OKC region (aka Inner City).

I think downtown should capitalize on this and get the stores BACK downtown. An anchor store or two would be a great infusion of retail back into downtown and would be the push to further cement downtown as the greatest attraction (business, retail, tourist, entertainment) in this state, if not the region as a whole!

There will now be Macy's in OKC as Foley's converts to Macy's-Foleys or just Macy's after Federated's purchase of May Department Stores Inc. Also look for Belk to make its OKC debut in the very near future.

A 58,000 square-foot Belk fashion department store is already in the work to come to Stillwater, Oklahoma which is scheduled to open in the fall of 2006.

Charlotte, N.C.-based Belk, Inc. is the nation's largest privately owned department store company has 228 stores in 14 Southeastern and Mid-Atlantic states. Belk opened 14 new stores and completed four store expansions and six major store remodeling projects in 2004. The total combined selling space of the new stores was approximately 964,300 square feet. In 2005, the company plans to open 12 new stores and complete five store expansions and two major remodelings. William Henry Belk founded the company in 1888 in Monroe, N.C.

I've been to the Macy's in Hawaii, next to the movie theater and down from K-Mart! :) Believe it or not, that Macy's is actually quite upscale, and that outdoor mall is anchored by a double-header Macy's...one store for women's and children's and another store for men's and home. I'd say it was on the same line as the Macy's in Dallas at the Galleria.

Anyways, I expect Macy's to close several of the Foley's stores. For example, I really don't see them keeping the store at Crossroads open.