I just read the front headlines... most of the news seems to be old. I already learned from the news and Midtowner than there was a fire in S.W. Oklahoma City... and that is the best they can do for a headline. Their business section, which doesn't match up to OKC's own business perspective, seems to focus completely on this Nonna's Bakery thing, and every week the single highlight is where they interview some local businessman, who lately might as well be me for Pete's sake!

The business section is of the utmost disrespect to it's subscribers. I have been emailing, emailing them with complaints, requests, and so on, example: "Who is that Spring Creek Plaza coming along? Could you do a nice follow up story" of course I hope they are humiliated for writing an entire page that is mostly untrue. Trusty? I think not. I have to go soon, but I was wondering if there is anyway we could do a flood, or mass email campaign and get out that we would like a better newspaper in Oklahoma. I would recommend they use ANY of our threads, which would make swell headlines. Why do you think so many people here on okctalk have their own blogs? (I have updated mine today forthose who are wondering. Nothing interesting. I was hoping to scrape up some news from that "newspaper" but oh well.)

Or... maybe OKCTalk can publish it's own business section. Nah, nevermind. We already have blogs. Just an idea but it's a pretty bad one.

Well, I don't want to offend any people who are fond of this newspaper, I was a few days ago. I have been slipping into denial, and today's edition just shocked me. They have never done worse in my 10+ years of living here.

This is one time I agree with you. The Oklahoman is a waste of money. In comparison to other major cities, the Oklahoman is way too small in content. The sports focus to highly on O pew, high school sports and things like fishing. The business section only has about three pages of news and three of the stock exchages. Yes, the exchanges take that much space. That is not the point. The news section is terrible, the obits use to many euphimisms like "passed away," "went to be with the lord, " etc. People do not pass away, they die. In addition, the Oklahoman breaks nearly every rule in the AP styleguide.

The only reason I buy it, is because it is the only one in town. Otherwise, I would not waste my money.

The Oklahoman is okay, I usually read the news as-it-happens online at newsok.com. I do think for a city the size of OKC the paper needs to be bigger and better. The Tulsa World has better writers and more content but still is not that great and is run by the Lorton family, enough said...

The news section is terrible, the obits use to many euphimisms like "passed away," "went to be with the lord, " etc. People do not pass away, they die.

Maybe we could teach them to use their euphanisms, and there is nothing wrong with a good, inspiring euphanism every now and then, but we could teach them to write, "The Dow went to be with the_" I don't know where a sorry Dow goes, but you can get my basic drift.

I guess if you really dislike the Oklahoman, you don't have to buy it, huh? For the price, I think it's a great deal. You get all the news, the ads, the TV guide, etc...plus, you have to realize that many people don't have the internet, and watch very little TV, so their only source of news is the Oklahoman.

I admit, it isn't the greatest newspaper, but it is better than nothing.

The only reason I buy the oklahoman is on sun to get the sale papers coupons, an dthe tv guide I don't even read any part of it. Well the classifieds I look at on sundays, just to see what is being sold. Anymore if I want to see whats in the news I turn on the tv and watch the neswcast. But even then alot is reapeated so many times I don't even watch the news or weather. Its the same year after year same weather and same news. Everytime its gets cold some fire started by a heater or xmas tree lights to blame. In the summer somebody done something, or or got to hot and had heat stoke. I gave up on any type of news its all the same to me.

But... there is so much business going on in this city, and we have what Columbia University calls the nation's worst newspaper.

A lot of it is simply a meager news hole: they arrange the ads, they see how many pages it will take, and then they put in just enough copy to fill in the spaces between the ads.

As for that CJR piece, much has changed since then, though not enough.

My biggest problem with the Oklahoman is that it is simply a booster paper. Its staff does not comprehend the concept of investigative journalism. They have been the cover-guys for more scandals here in Oklahoma than you could shake a stick at. In fact, back in the 70's when Attorney General Jan Eric Cartwright was breaking up the whole OIA good 'ol boy network, the Oklahoman ran numerous front page editorials aginst him during the campaign and he was beat out by Turpin before he could send Gaylord and company to jail for illegal things they had done. Turpin of course dropped the entire case. You may remember this stuff if you're old enough, Vince Orza did a lot of stories on it, and it set the judicial precedents in the state for Open Records, Open Meetings and the Freedom of Information Act.

Nowadays, shady "not-for-profit" companies manage public funds without having to be scrutinized by the public -- see the State Fair Board and numerous other entitities of that nature. This paper serves as a bully pulpit for the Gaylord/Everest families to put a pretty face on public funds being handed over to them.

Look no further than the Oklahomans favorable and non-investigative coverage of the whole Bass Pro Shops thing. It didn't even think it was worth mentioning that Gaylord owned a 1/3 share of Bass Pro at the time. I won't subscribe to them as I don't think they're a good source for anything other than local sports news.

My biggest problem with the Oklahoman is that it is simply a booster paper.

You mean "propaganda" like the alleged Fox news? I don't think such "propaganda" really exists.


Look no further than the Oklahomans favorable and non-Shinvestigative coverage of the whole Bass Pro ops thing. It didn't even think it was worth mentioning that Gaylord owned a 1/3 share of Bass Pro at the time. I won't subscribe to them as I don't think they're a good source for anything other than local sports news.

I don't get it, there was no scandal regarding Bass Pro. The city reserves the right to economically develop the city the way it, and analysts believe is right for the city. Luring a Bass Pro to Bricktown was a great idea, and to let you know, they are to repay us for construction costs over (I think) 20 or so years.

You mean "propaganda" like the alleged Fox news? I don't think such "propaganda" really exists.

I don't get it, there was no scandal regarding Bass Pro. The city reserves the right to economically develop the city the way it, and analysts believe is right for the city. Luring a Bass Pro to Bricktown was a great idea, and to let you know, they are to repay us for construction costs over (I think) 20 or so years.

It's unconstitutional for a tax to be passed for one purpose and then funds diverted to another purpose without a vote of the people (Oklahoma State Constitution). My father was 1st Assistant Attorney General during the whole OIA thing. He was in charge of takin' it to the man. They almost got 'em.

All I'm saying is that there are a lot of avenues that I would certainly send my investigative reporters out to research if I were in charge of a major newspaper. The trouble with the print media in this city is that there's only one major newspaper. If you look at NYC, where there are more than one, you'll find that the press is a very powerful check on government corruption. In OKC, the owners of the newspaper have historically been involved at the highest levels.

It's unconstitutional for a tax to be passed for one purpose and then funds diverted to another purpose without a vote of the people (Oklahoma State Constitution). My father was 1st Assistant Attorney General during the whole OIA thing. He was in charge of takin' it to the man. They almost got 'em.

What is your point? I don't mean to be rude, but there really aren't that many Oklahomans that believe Bass Pro will actually help Bricktown, which will in turn help Oklahoma City's downtown, and eventually spark growth in an entire metro. (read my blog on chain growth)


All I'm saying is that there are a lot of avenues that I would certainly send my investigative reporters out to research if I were in charge of a major newspaper. The trouble with the print media in this city is that there's only one major newspaper. If you look at NYC, where there are more than one, you'll find that the press is a very powerful check on government corruption. In OKC, the owners of the newspaper have historically been involved at the highest levels.

Do you care to explain? If anything... I'll agree to their lack of involvement in this metro. They, while doing a terrible job, do reflect the interests of Oklahomans, but barely. That is why I am so mad at them lately.

What is your point? I don't mean to be rude, but there really aren't that many Oklahomans that believe Bass Pro will actually help Bricktown, which will in turn help Oklahoma City's downtown, and eventually spark growth in an entire metro. (read my blog on chain growth)


My point is that the city's only newspaper is not a trustworthy source. The media does have a terrific power, not to tell us what to believe, but to set the agenda. Society as a whole will often not ask questions of entities unless the newspaper/media asks those questions first. I'm sure you studied the concept of agenda setting at some point.

Actually, I do believe that Bass Pro was a good thing for Bricktown. I honestly do. It's great that they're here and everything. What I had a problem with was that they broke the law to do it and no one even cares. Yes, there was a civil suit and the Oklahoma Supreme Court ruled in favor of the city, but the Constitution is very explicit.

Oklahoma Constitution, Article 10, Section 16:

10 § 16. Borrowing money - Specification of purpose - Use.

All laws authorizing the borrowing of money by and on behalf of the State, county, or other political subdivision of the State, shall specify the purpose for which the money is to be used, and the money so borrowed shall be used for no other purpose.

(not sure if MAPS was a bond, but that would be applicable)

If not:

10 § 19. Specification of purpose of tax - Devotion to another purpose.

Every act enacted by the Legislature, and every ordinance and resolution passed by any county, city, town, or municipal board or local legislative body, levying a tax shall specify distinctly the purpose for which said tax is levied, and no tax levied and collected for one purpose shall ever be devoted to another purpose.

When Bass Pro came about, we had already voted on MAPS. MAPS money was diverted to a new use that was absolutely not specified in the original bill that the voters voted on. Without a new vote, this is clearly unconstitutional. As you can see, the Supreme Court absolutely ignored the explicit verbiage in the State Constitution -- a deriliction of judicial duty in my opinion.

So, you've probably never even heard of any of this? The paper never covered it? Amazing, isn't it? If I were a member of the media, I would have certainly been asking this question. There were individuals asking this question, but for some reason, it never got any press coverage. So yeah, I hold the Oklahoman and all media sources to be responsible here. Our Supreme Court Justices are on a retention ballot, they certainly couldn't afford negative press for disregarding the laws of the Constitution.. It really has all the makings of a juicy scandal... Too bad there's no one to report it.



Do you care to explain? If anything... I'll agree to their lack of involvement in this metro. They, while doing a terrible job, do reflect the interests of Oklahomans, but barely. That is why I am so mad at them lately.

They only reflect the interests of Oklahomans because the interests of Oklahomans reflect those of the paper. As I said, they don't control what we think, but they do have a great deal of control over what we think about.

Right now, they are asking no tough questions of the State Fair board, a non-profit company given public money that answers to no one. They're exempt from the open meetings act and the open records act -- that used to not be the case, but the paper has ensured that politicians that challenge the status queue have very short political careers.

I can name a few public figures.. of course, Cartwright. He was slammed on the front page of the Oklahoman for being anti-progress enough that he lost an election. Of course, all his administration did was uphold the law. Then there was John Garvey, I believe he was the Oklahoma County Assessor -- he resigned after the media turned him writing a personal letter on his state computer into a scandal (yeah, pretty weak, right?). Anyhow, if I sound a little angry at that paper, it's because I really think this state and this city have a great deal of potential. But it has remained untapped when outcomes do not favor a select few.

I don't like the Oklahoman basically because I perfer to have a Sports section that longer than 5 pages of OU spew mainly. I understand that OKC isn't the biggest sports town and all that, but I know quite a few people who pay attention to sports outside of here, and anytime I do notice the paper, they really don't get into the sports that are here (Blazers hockey, Redhawks baseball, Yarddogs Arena football) much less anything more than a couple mere sentences on the major sports on half a page. I need a little more context with my paper. I can get what I'm looking for online, yes, but I may not always have access to a computer. That's why I don't like the Oklahoman.

Ohh... I must disagree. OKC is quite the sports fan, if you know where to look. The National Softball Hall of Fame... OSU... OU... etc. OKC is much more into college sports than pro however.

Sooner&RiceGrad, you are right. This site usually is more up to date than the paper on the issues, especially those regarding city development. That's because we're privileged to have a lot of valuable sources that provide us with cutting edge information long before it gets to print media. downtownguy is one of those sources, although several of us also have contacts like Dave Lopez, Jim Couch, Steve Lackmeyer, and Mick Cornett that fill us in on information.

Ohh... I must disagree. OKC is quite the sports fan, if you know where to look. The National Softball Hall of Fame... OSU... OU... etc. OKC is much more into college sports than pro however.

I concur there. I think the Oklahoman's sports page gives us what we wouldn't get elsewhere. I'd much rather them cover local sports than cover sports in cities other than OKC. I was a Yard Dawgz season ticket holder last year. May do it again this year, not sure yet... The Ford center is within walking distance of home, so probably will do it :D

It was fun, the team did VERY well. Made it to the playoffs in the first year. Attendance was hampered I think due to the fact that it received hardly any publicity. I'd also expect the Blazers to get more support than they do from the paper, but no.

Sooner&RiceGrad, you are right. This site usually is more up to date than the paper on the issues, especially those regarding city development. That's because we're privileged to have a lot of valuable sources that provide us with cutting edge information long before it gets to print media. downtownguy is one of those sources, although several of us also have contacts like Dave Lopez, Jim Couch, Steve Lackmeyer, and Mick Cornett that fill us in on information.

Patrick, that's not really an excuse for the paper. It is definitely a compliment to this site, but don't you think these people would love to talk to a newspaper reporter if they'd just call them!?

In my opinion, our substandard paper is one of the major obstacles to real growth and development in OKC.

MAPS, Midtowner, was not a bonded project. It was a complete "pay as you go" project, and has incurred no debt. As I have mentioned before in this forum, Bass Pro was financed with tax revenue from use taxes collected from the construction of each of the nine MAPS projects.

Is The Oklahoman a poor source of news information? Well, there is much room for improvement. Remember, Sooner&RiceGrad, that Columbia University called The Oklahoma the nation's worst newspaper nearly seven years ago. Since then, The Oklahoman has seen much improvement, but not enough to be a true big city newspaper.

I could careless if Gaylord is a shareholder of Bass Pro. I really don't care for the Gaylod family, but I believe people in Oklahoma City need to learn not to launch attacks at anything that even partially involves the Gaylords.

We complain about The Oklahoman all the time. The city has great dissent for our newspaper. However, I don't see anybody doing anything about it. It IS possible to start up a newspaper that could capture the market and could lead to a takeover of The Oklahoman. Revive the Oklahoma City Times. Or design a completely different newspaper.

Patrick, that's not really an excuse for the paper. It is definitely a compliment to this site, but don't you think these people would love to talk to a newspaper reporter if they'd just call them!?

In my opinion, our substandard paper is one of the major obstacles to real growth and development in OKC.

Midtowner, I couldn't agree more. I'd love to see another paper come in and give the Oklahoman a run for its money. Won't ever happen though. But, true competition would be the only chance we get at improving the newspaper in OKC.

MAPS, Midtowner, was not a bonded project. It was a complete "pay as you go" project, and has incurred no debt. As I have mentioned before in this forum, Bass Pro was financed with tax revenue from use taxes collected from the construction of each of the nine MAPS projects.


I listed 10 § 19 of the Oklahoma Constitution for exactly that purpose -- to show that even if it wasn't a bond that the fact that they diverted money collected for one purpose to another purpose was illegal. I have quoted the Constitution below for your convenience.

10 § 19. Specification of purpose of tax - Devotion to another purpose.

Every act enacted by the Legislature, and every ordinance and resolution passed by any county, city, town, or municipal board or local legislative body, levying a tax shall specify distinctly the purpose for which said tax is levied, and no tax levied and collected for one purpose shall ever be devoted to another purpose.

The MAPS projects that we all voted for were very clearly identified on the ballot. Bass Pro was not one of them. The store was built with revenue from the sales tax created to build the MAPS projects. The fact that the paper did not even ask these questions, and further ignored the fact that the Oklahoma State Supreme Court simply ignored this clause even when it was brought up in a constitutional challenge on the grounds that observing sucha clause would "impede progress" is clearly newsworthy. Do you think it's just an amazing coincidence that the owner of the paper has a 1/3 share of the company and the paper chooses to ignore the corrupt means by which the project is financed?



Is The Oklahoman a poor source of news information? Well, there is much room for improvement. Remember, Sooner&RiceGrad, that Columbia University called The Oklahoma the nation's worst newspaper nearly seven years ago. Since then, The Oklahoman has seen much improvement, but not enough to be a true big city newspaper.


Then you agree, this paper is one of the major obstacles to progress in this city. The populace's heads are turned the other way when shady deals go on behind our backs. The politicians and people in place to protect us from this feel far too small to challenge the authority of the paper. I think there has been some change since the death of Mr. Gaylord, but not enough. The right questions still are not being asked. The right scandals still are not being exposed.



I could careless if Gaylord is a shareholder of Bass Pro. I realy don't care for the Gaylod family, but I believe people in Oklahoma City need to learn not to launch attacks at anything that even partially involves the Gaylords.


Why is that? The man has made a huge amount of money accepting donations to his private enterprise from the taxpayers. I think we absolutely need to question their practices.



We complain about The Oklahoman all the time. The city has great dissent for our newspaper. However, I don't see anybody doing anything about it. It IS possible to start up a newspaper that could capture the market and could lead to a takeover of The Oklahoman. Revive the Oklahoma City Times. Or design a completely different newspaper.

Possible, however, newspapers are run to make a profit. Competing in such a market when the local paper is so entrenched would be suicide, especially if you were running a daily. No, I think it's far too large an investment and far too much potential for major loss. Unless the Oklahoman is bought by some out of state company just wanting to make a profit -- something far more likely now that Gaylord is dead and the family is more focused elsewhere, I think we'll see more of the same things occuring in the future that have occured in the past.

But who knows? Maybe the Gazette could eventually transition to a subscription-based daily. Not without a major change of format, staff, distribution.. well everything. Remotely possible, but nothing that would occur anytime in the near future.

Midtowner, is it accurate that use taxes paid to the city by construction companies, which specifically was not designated to fund the MAPS projects, has no specific designated purpose? The one-cent sales tax increase was approved to fund the construction of the projects, however, the use tax, which is equal to the state and local sales tax rate, was not designated for the construction of the projects. The use tax was used to finance construction. Is there a specific statute that blocks local officials from dispersing use tax revenue at their discretion?

(Not debating, just curious)

Also, my comment concerning the Gaylords didn't reflect my true feelings. What I meant was that I've grown up in Oklahoma City hearing about the Gaylords. I think they're shady, I'm just tired of us complaining about them and not doing anything about it. I'm the kind of person that likes to take action. That is why I am considering contacting MSNBC Investigates, Dateline or 20/20 about the dire condition of the county roads in rapidly growing north Oklahoma City, and why city officials are not doing enough to improve these roads. Just drive on N.W. 164th between May Avenue and Western Avenue, and you'll agree.

Good point pulse. The money used from the Bass Pro shop did not come from the MAPS sales tax approved by voters. It came from sales tax paid by construction companies building the MAPS projects. Thus, the city has no real strings requiring them to use this for a designated use.

If the Gazette were ever to become a subscriber news paper, they would have to chuck their liberal reputation, because liberal doesn't do it in OKC. I think that would be good, but it would be terrible if we get into this situation: Liberal Rag, or Worthless Rag. Your discretion.

Why are the Gaylords so provocative? Why does it matter if they are involved? Are we spiting the wealthy now? For pete's sake, we are a red state, we should be above that nonsense!

Midtowner, is it accurate that use taxes paid to the city by construction companies, which specifically was not designated to fund the MAPS projects, has no specific designated purpose? The one-cent sales tax increase was approved to fund the construction of the projects, however, the use tax, which is equal to the state and local sales tax rate, was not designated for the construction of the projects. The use tax was used to finance construction. Is there a specific statute that blocks local officials from dispersing use tax revenue at their discretion?


OKLAHOMA CITY .038750 1,989,121.18

That's from http://www.oktax.state.ok.us/publicat/stn1204.pdf as far as how much our use tax is and how much was collected last year. We don't have a County Use tax.

Here's an excerpt from an article that opposed it:



Under the proposed deal, the City would spend up to $18 million to construct Bass Pro's proposed 110,000 square-foot building. The construction would be financed through a bond issue, and repaid with an annual pledge of City sales tax revenue. The final bond cost of the store would be $2.5 million per year. According to the proposed 15-year contract, Bass Pro would pay only $600,000 a year to occupy the building. So, Oklahoma City taxpayers would be paying 75% of the rent.

City leaders argue increased sales taxes generated by the store will help make the bond payments. According to the City's consultant, Bass Pro Shops, which is partially owned (19 percent) by Gaylord Entertainment Co., could make $38.5 million in annual sales at the proposed Oklahoma City store. The Oklahoma City Council must still approve the final deal being negotiated between the City and Bass Pro. Opponents hope to convince the Council to reject the deal.

According to that article, it wasn't paid for by use tax dollars, but sales tax dollars.

Also, according to this article (these guys really appeared to do their research -- they say the funding came from 3 tax sources, MAPS being one of them). So actually, it looks like they drew money from funds set aside for THREE different purposes and illegally diverted them to a new store for Bass Pro.



The $17 million comes from three city tax funds—the MAPS operation and maintenance fund, a fund used to finance capital improvements for the city’s schools, and a third fund used to finance equipment for public safety agencies. City officials say the sales taxes generated by Bass Pro over the 15 years of the lease will cover this $17 million “loan”. But this claim covers up a key fact: most of Bass Pro’s sales will come from existing businesses forced to compete with the government-sponsored retailer. Oklahoma City’s own analyst said that 41% of Bass Pro’s expected sales will be “transfers,” meaning they’ll come at the expense of the city’s 65 existing sporting goods retailers (and that doesn’t include large discount stores like Wal-Mart). Thus, Oklahoma City residents and businesses are forcing a transfer of wealth from local merchants to a larger national merchant; what they’re not doing is promoting “economic development” or growing the economy in any substantial manner.


Link (more disturbing info here):
http://www.moraldefense.com/initium/09-15-03.htm



(Not debating, just curious)


Please let me know if you find this information lacking.



Also, my comment concerning the Gaylords didn't reflect my true feelings. What I meant was that I've grown up in Oklahoma City hearing about the Gaylords. I think they're shady, I'm just tired of us complaining about them and not doing anything about it. I'm the kind of person that likes to take action. That is why I am considering contacting MSNBC Investigates, Dateline or 20/20 about the dire condition of the county roads in rapidly growing north Oklahoma City, and why city officials are not doing enough to improve these roads. Just drive on N.W. 164th between May Avenue and Western Avenue, and you'll agree.

The last time someone tried to do something about it, they were ruined politically. That was Jan Eric Cartwright, Attorney General.

Here are one of the major cases they won against Gaylord and the Oklahoma Industry Authority:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=ok&vol=/supreme/1981/&invol=1981ok47

-- also therein, you'll find plenty to demonstrate how the OIA engaged in rather shady if not illegal business practices -- essentially pocketing tax revenue to improve their private properties.

Here's an excerpt from that article that explains some of the illegal activities that were goin on here:


While attempting to inspect such documents, the Assistant Attorney General and the legal representatives of the educational associations discovered that the Trust records, save for a few documents, were not kept in the office of the Trust, but, rather, were scattered throughout Oklahoma and Canadian Counties in some thirteen different locations. They also found that the Trust office was not open on a regular basis, and that the Trust's only employee, the Trust's general manager, was in the office between three and four days a week, and on those days he was in and out and kept no regular schedule. Additionally, the parties learned that the manager of the Trust did not know, and could not tell them, where the vast majority of the records they sought were located. Although the general manager, for the most part, attempted to cooperate with the legal representatives of the educational associations and the State of Oklahoma, the records were not readily available. Additionally, some of the representatives seeking the records testified that the general manager, Mr. Virgil Sprankle, indicated that had he known they were coming he would have burned the records.

Cartwright's political career was basically wrecked when election time rolled around, Gaylord ran numerous front page editiorials against him -- he was of course defeated and ruined. He died of cancer a few years later. No one has challenged Gaylord and company since. With the paper, they simply have too much power. Had Cartwright been able to continue his work, Gaylord would have certainly spent some time in prison for the schemes he pulled against the taxpayers of Oklahoma.

Let's just hope his death and the family's greater interest in Nashville gets them the heck out of here. Maybe they'll sell the paper. Let's hope.

As for the Gazette being "liberal", I don't see that. I think they're pretty balanced on things. In what way are they liberal?

I think Oklahoma City's liberal community, small of course, would enjoy being served by a balanced or liberal newspaper. To hell with the conservative community. Then hopefully many others will realize what crap The Oklahoman is and chunk the subscription in the trash. Maybe wishful thinking, but hey, what's wrong with dreaming?

I started a thread about this red state/blue state crap Sooner&RiceGrad. As I expressed, the last election's media coverage has split this country with this color-labeling jargon, which is a joke.

We are a state. Not a blue state or a red state... but a state. Unfortunately, this country bought into this red state/blue state from the media so I guess we are doomed for sure. I see another civil war not too far down the road the rate we're going.

I think Oklahoma City's liberal community, small of course, would enjoy being served by a balanced or liberal newspaper. To hell with the conservative community. Then hopefully many others will realize what crap The Oklahoman is and chunk the subscription in the trash. Maybe wishful thinking, but hey, what's wrong with dreaming?

I started a thread about this red state/blue state crap Sooner&RiceGrad. As I expressed, the last election's media coverage has split this country with this color-labeling jargon, which is a joke.

We are a state. Not a blue state or a red state... but a state. Unfortunately, this country bought into this red state/blue state from the media so I guess we are doomed for sure. I see another civil war not too far down the road the rate we're going.

I don't think it's just the liberal community. I consider myself to be VERY conservative, at least financially. That's why you see me up in arms about this underhanded self-dealing stuff that goes on -- or went on with many OKC politicians (time will tell about the current administration).

The Oklahoman does have a conservative facade. In reality, however, it seems most focused on promoting the projects that directly benefit its owners and their friends and covering up incidents of corruption, bribery, etc.

I agree, we as a state need to rise above being red and blue and look at which individuals running for office really have our best interests in mind. Red vs. Blue does not mean a thing. It's going to be very interesting to see how the next house session effects things in Oklahoma. I think they have a great opportunity to do some very good things. I'm still waiting to see if they push the capitalist conservative agenda, or they can waste their time and make us a national laughing stock by passing a few of Forrest Claunch's resolutions.

We'll have to wait and see I guess.

Yeah, I wish the Gazette would take a poll and become a subscriber paper with more content liberal newspaper. The Daily Disappointment is a disgrace, especially the Monday edition, it looks like the size of the UCO Newspaper, the front page has like 5 pages, there is no business section or metro section. They need way more content. If nothing else couldnt they just do more business interviews the week before and publish a Monday business section? Online they roll over most of Sundays content onto Monday.

My "red blue jargon" is merely to point out that a liberal paper will never happen in Oklahoma City. We very well could be the most conservative big city in the nation, save possibly Salt Lake City or Boise. Oklahomans will always be conservative... in excess. As the Buckle of the Bible Belt, this comes as no surprise. We, can count on the Gazette, but first... they MUST trash their liberal attire if they want to help out. I think they would have to become unbiased... at least. The more conservative they become the more popular they will be. I, am all for the idea of conservative media, because the Oklahomans political ties have nothing to do with it's poor quality.

STOP! STOP! The Gaylords don't mean anything either. Why do you all hold such a grudge against the Gaylords, or anything they do? Just because Edward Lewis Gaylord is worth approximately 1.2 million dollars, doesn't mean a thing. What if Cornett was a Gaylord? You would all still think he is a good mayor? I would.

Ohh... I must disagree. OKC is quite the sports fan, if you know where to look. The National Softball Hall of Fame... OSU... OU... etc. OKC is much more into college sports than pro however.I didn't mean it was devoid of any sports fans, I just said it wasn't the the biggest sports town...

I hope you are using the 1.2 million dollars as a statement as they are worth closer to billions.

It's 1.2 somethingorother. I just remember the numeral part from Forbes last night. I forgot whether it was billion or millions. It still doesn't mean anything, but a light congratulations. Now lets get back to discussion.

I concur there. I think the Oklahoman's sports page gives us what we wouldn't get elsewhere. I'd much rather them cover local sports than cover sports in cities other than OKC. I was a Yard Dawgz season ticket holder last year. May do it again this year, not sure yet... The Ford center is within walking distance of home, so probably will do it :D

It was fun, the team did VERY well. Made it to the playoffs in the first year. Attendance was hampered I think due to the fact that it received hardly any publicity. I'd also expect the Blazers to get more support than they do from the paper, but no.The lack of local coverage was part of what I was talking about. I might see a TV ad or hear one of those ridiculous radio ads once in a blue moon for the Blazers, but rarely a mention in the paper. I am sorry if I'm coming across like "Oh Oklahomans don't care about sports at al! The losers!"...that wasn't my intent. I know that there are sports fans here, I mean, why else would the Sports Anlimal exsist, right?
I was talking about other than the mass of OU and maybe some OSU, there really isn't a lot of context in the Oklahoman Sports page.

If the Gazette were ever to become a subscriber news paper,...Then I'd have one less reason to read that...

My "red blue jargon" is merely to point out that a liberal paper will never happen in Oklahoma City. We very well could be the most conservative big city in the nation, save possibly Salt Lake City or Boise. Oklahomans will always be conservative... in excess. As the Buckle of the Bible Belt, this comes as no surprise. We, can count on the Gazette, but first... they MUST trash their liberal attire if they want to help out. I think they would have to become unbiased... at least. The more conservative they become the more popular they will be. I, am all for the idea of conservative media, because the Oklahomans political ties have nothing to do with it's poor quality.

STOP! STOP! The Gaylords don't mean anything either. Why do you all hold such a grudge against the Gaylords, or anything they do? Just because Edward Lewis Gaylord is worth approximately 1.2 million dollars, doesn't mean a thing. What if Cornett was a Gaylord? You would all still think he is a good mayor? I would.

Actually, did you even bother to look at that case I posted a link to? That is just one of the many times back then (the only time anyone was looking) that he was caught with his hand in the cookie jar. Recently, it hasn't been him though as much as it has been Hogan and/or Humphries doing the underhanded dealing in the city, doleling out taxpayer's money to their buddies -- much of which was done out in the open and done in the name of progress, and then presented to us by the paper as the greatest thing since sliced bread.

My qualm is not with the fact that it was done. I'm extremely happy to have Bricktown, etc. My qualm is with how it was done. It seems the best investment in Oklahoma City lately has been in a winning political campaign.

Honestly, I don't know what to think of Cornett. I think we'll know more about him as this State Fair improvement project shakes out. Reading my ballot, I saw large holes left for misinterpretation and underhanded dealing. If he as mayor ensures that there are transparent and public processes for the state fair to accomplish its goals, then he's a good mayor. If not, he's just another Humphries. I'm withholding my judgement -- and from what I've seen thus far, I'm optimistic.

If you don't think that there's a connection though between the newspaper's lack of coverage of the Bass Pro incedent and Gaylord Entertainment's massive stake in Bass Pro, you're in denial. Where there's smoke, there's usually fire.

Actually, I don't really think the Gazette is all that liberal... Maybe they are socially, but I don't see how they would be considered liberal otherwise. Oklahoma only has one liberal newspaper, and that's the Observer. A veritable rag.

All that said, investigative journalism and opposition to public corruption is not a liberal or conservative virtue. It's a right vs. wrong virtue. I wish we had a paper that understood that.

Actually, if I need to follow the Yard Dawgz, there's the Mid-City Advocate.

Set the Wayback machine to 1964, when there actually was a competing paper of sorts. W. P. Bill Atkinson, founder of Midwest City, had had the temerity to run for governor; E. K. Gaylord gave him the back of the editorial hand. Atkinson stewed for a while, then announced his payback: a rival to the Oklahoman and Times.

And surprisingly, The Oklahoma Journal, billed as "The Paper That Tells Both Sides," actually survived for sixteen years, seven days a week, before succumbing. The Oklahoman noted its passing on page 12A (or thereabouts) with the smug headline "Midwest City Paper Folds."

Actually, if I need to follow the Yard Dawgz, there's the Mid-City Advocate.

Set the Wayback machine to 1964, when there actually was a competing paper of sorts. W. P. Bill Atkinson, founder of Midwest City, had had the temerity to run for governor; E. K. Gaylord gave him the back of the editorial hand. Atkinson stewed for a while, then announced his payback: a rival to the Oklahoman and Times.

And surprisingly, The Oklahoma Journal, billed as "The Paper That Tells Both Sides," actually survived for sixteen years, seven days a week, before succumbing. The Oklahoman noted its passing on page 12A (or thereabouts) with the smug headline "Midwest City Paper Folds."
Actually it was 1966. David Hall also ran that year, along with another family friend (Hall still is) named Cleeta-John Rogers. Cleeta later went back to the Senate and Hall was elected in 1970. My dad almost ran that year. Nigh was still looie.

I would like to rename this thread:

Why I dislike Sooner&RiceGrad.

jk.

:Smiley112

I don't like The Oklahoman because the "world news" covereage just isn't that great. I get more world news from The Norman Transcript for crying out loud than I get from the Oklahoman.

Foxtrot

Why would somebody rename a thread to such a terrible idea? :)

Actually it was 1966. David Hall also ran that year, along with another family friend (Hall still is) named Cleeta-John Rogers. Cleeta later went back to the Senate and Hall was elected in 1970. My dad almost ran that year. Nigh was still looie.

David Hall.. wasn't he that corrupt governor that did some time in prison immediately after his term?

Complete scumbag.

David Hall.. wasn't he that corrupt governor that did some time in prison immediately after his term?

Complete scumbag.

No. He was framed. I can not reveal how I know because it is highly confidential, however, he was framed by then Secretery of State John Rogers.

Remember. David Hall is a friend of my family's, and Midtowner, you were not born when this happened. I was. I was in the center of all this because of the discussions between my dad, Rogers, and Hall. So. I know what happened. You do not.

No. He was framed. I can not reveal how I know because it is highly confidential, however, he was framed by then Secretery of State John Rogers.

Remember. David Hall is a friend of my family's, and Midtowner, you were not born when this happened. I was. I was in the center of all this because of the discussions between my dad, Rogers, and Hall. So. I know what happened. You do not.

My father was also very involved in politics at the time, due to corrupt public officials like Hall, and others, he lost interest, went to the bench, then private practice. He has a very low opinion of Hall. I can respect you standing up for a family friend, but the guy was a crook, and this was proved in a court of law.

Who were the conspirators against him? What was their goal?

My father was also very involved in politics at the time, due to corrupt public officials like Hall, and others, he lost interest, went to the bench, then private practice. He has a very low opinion of Hall. I can respect you standing up for a family friend, but the guy was a crook, and this was proved in a court of law.

Who were the conspirators against him? What was their goal?

I know what I know. It is obvious your dad was not a friend of Hall and was biased. I know the facts... You nor your dad do, Midtowner.

By the way. Had my dad not known Hall was innocent, he would have helped convict him and dropped him as a friend and very important business contact. By the way. John Rogers stopped being a friend of the family when he framed Hall. Funny. You never mentioned Rogers. I bet you think he is innocent of HIS charges.

I agree with most the criticisms mentioned, especially the lack of investigative reporting. Without this, the area is miss a major check-and-balance against those engaged in shady dealings. Much of what has gone on in OKC an at the state capitol would have been exposed by papers in other cities.


However, allow me to offer some positives from a 15-year out-of-towner:

1. They were one of the very first newspapers on the web
2. Their website is free (unlike the state's other major newspaper), comprehensive and updated frequently
3. They have gone through the trouble of archiving every single article and add back to inception, and while there is a subscription fee, it's a very cool and valuable service
4. The do a great job of covering college and high school sports and a lot of that info. is not available anywhere else


I would also add that local papers are losing their significance with each passing day due to the proliferation of on-line information. They also no longer have a strangle-hold on retailers and others when it comes to advertising for the same reason.


People in OKC have much more power against the Oklahoma these days, as they can merely chose to ignore it. Same with local news, BTW.

Bloggers are really serving as a check to the newspapers. People like downtownguy are really able to hold them accountable when they screw up or fail to report.