That's why I said “its mostly been the political left”
The right also has more than enough economically challenged people but it seem like that's more of national problem than a state wide problem in Oklahoma.
But regardless don't expect to see high-speed rail from OKC to Tulsa in your life time.

This is why I said earlier that as rail supporters we need to get the terminology correct. When the phrase 'high speed rail' is used that has a specific connation implying Japanese, Chinese, and European electrified rail on a dedicated right of way traveling at +200 mph. That is not what Perryman meant, even if that is what he said. He was talking about rapid commuter/regional rail running mostly on existing rail lines using diesel power with speeds 90 to 120 mph. Some people consider 90 to 120 mph to be high speed, but it isn't the highest speed trains can go.

This can be up and running much faster and much cheaper than rail opponents want to admit.

LYhPCqMGT3k

Here are a few systems of the type JTF and Rep Perryman is talking about:

Salt Lake City Frontrunner (in JTF's post above)
Dallas Ft Worth Trinity Rail Express
Albuquerque - Santa Fe Railrunner
Minneapolis' Northstar
California's Surfliner
Virginia Rail Express
NC DOT Charlotte to Raleigh
Seattle Sounder
Florida TriRail
Long Island Railroad

All these are located in liberal bastions.... oh wait. Never mind. Not so much.

All use conventional rail passenger equipment. Oklahoma can, and should, begin seriously identifying what will be necessary to implement a regional service. Rep Perryman is cursed with vision but being surrounded people who cannot see past the nose they would cut off to spite their face. I hope he will stick with it and not give up.

Capt. Dave - In addition to your list there several other systems that are getting ready to come on-line or that you missed.

SunRail - Orlando: Starts service next year
Music City Star - Nashville: Already in service
NCTD Coaster - San Diego: Already in service
ACE Rail - Stockton to San Jose: Already in service
Caltrain - San Jose to San Francisco: Already in service
West Side Express - Beaverton, OR: Already in service

Add Amtrak California to the list - it and the Surfliner are similar to a Lawton - OKC - Tulsa operation. Probably more out there but these are the ones I could think of off the top of my head.

Reading some of the comments on NewsOK in respect to the editorial just shows that delusion is definitely out there and people don't understand the rail product being proposed.


Greg Davis · Top Commenter · Commercial Real Estate Appraiser at Self Employed (Business)
'partially state owned'...which interprets into the fact about 99% of those who would never ride would get to pay for it...how about a toy train for Rep Perryman in a city park in Pocasset? He can be the engineer...


Rob Abiera · Follow · Top Commenter · Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Bureaucrats want to throw taxpayer dollars at a high-speed rail boondoggle, while harassing bus companies in an industry that had been undergoing a renaissance thanks to deregulation. It makes me wonder why we haven't seen any of these mom-and-pop type operations, providing curb-side service, sprout up here in Oklahoma. Hmmm...


The Feds vs. the Chinatown Bus: The Glorious Rebirth of Bus Travel & Why the Gov't May Ruin it Again - YouTube (http://youtu.be/ft8-ZaugYSU)


Why the Government Was Wrong to Shutdown Fung Wah Bus Company - Reason.com (http://reason.com/archives/2013/07/16/why-the-government-was-wrong-to-shutdown)


The Feds vs. the Chinatown Bus: The Glorious Rebirth of American Bus Travel and Why the Government May Ruin it Again - Reason.com (http://reason.com/reasontv/2013/07/16/the-feds-vs-the-chinatown-bus-the-glorio)




Greg Davis · Top Commenter · Commercial Real Estate Appraiser at Self Employed (Business)
Rep. David Perryman, D-Pocasset...say no more...why try to explain the reality of life which is in two words, 'financial feasibility'...


John Wayne · Follow · Top Commenter · Wayne, OklahomaI travel a lot and flying has become a nightmare. As it is now, wherever I go, if I can drive in 8 hours, I will drive over flying. I wish I had more options.
Reply · Like · Follow Post · 10 hours ago


Thomas Furlong · Top Commenter · University of Central Oklahoma
Well rail ain't one of 'em. Too expensive. I refuse to fly anymore as well. We are treated like cattle.
Reply · Like · 5 hours ago


Greg Davis · Top Commenter · Commercial Real Estate Appraiser at Self Employed (Business)
Gosh, and I was hoping Johnny Boy, you would jump out of the airplane without a chute so you could test the theory BHO could catch you before you hit the earth's surface. Can only wish...if you love high speed rail, move to California...by the time the state is broke and you are about 100 years old maybe you could be one of its initial riders....oh please...

Reading some of the comments on NewsOK in respect to the editorial just shows that delusion is definitely out there and people don't understand the rail product being proposed.

Doesn't it make you just want to beat your head against a rock?

There's nothing worse than a powerful, ignorant, and uneducated media source....except for the people it somehow manages to convince.

Doesn't it make you just want to beat your head against a rock?

There's nothing worse than a powerful, ignorant, and uneducated media source....except for the people it somehow manages to convince.

I don't know about my head, but it does make me want to bang other people's heads on rocks.

I just have a hard time believing that anyone can look at our current operating procedures in the this country and think to themselves, "This is the best that we can do." I can only chalk it up to mob mentality. To paraphrase Agent K, a person is smart but people are stupid.

For the most part all we can do is raise awareness, identify areas for improvement, refute false claims, resolve misunderstanding, correct misinformation, and hope that people will start making the logical connections for themselves. For example, if you don't like traffic why do you keep supporting a land use and development style (single-use pod Euclidian zoning) that produces more traffic? If you don't like government subsidies, why do you support a housing model (the sprawling single family home subdivision) that only exists because of government subsidies? If you don't like spending trillions on the military why do you keep supporting a transportation system (the automobile) that requires an active military to keep the free flow of oil at below market price? The list of questions can go on and on.

One final question; Why don't we start living in a way that requires the type of government we say we want instead of living in a way that requires the type of government we say we don't want?

One of the main problems is we have a DOT that spreads false or misleading information about everything transportation related in Oklahoma. They project low on highway projects and inevitably say "oops, but we can't leave it halfway finished"; and give the highest possible estimate for non-highway projects to dissuade any development of alternatives to highways. Couple that with always quoting high speed rail costs when conventional commuter rail is proposed and refusing to study anything but HSR for OKC-Tulsa and you get a dysfunctional organization that should be renamed the Oklahoma Department of Roads (ODOR). Unfortunately there are far too many people who do not understand the issue to challenge this disinformation (largely due to supposed unbiased sources like the DOK repeating the ODOT party line) and too much willful ignorance in the statehouse and governor's mansion.

Refuting the falsehoods at every opportunity and explaining the differences in different modes of rail transportation will take consistent effort to overcome this long standing bias. It often feels like rail advocates are tilting windmills but I think we are beginning to see a small shift in public opinion.

For their own reasons, there are people and companies who favor the status quo - but they can't defend the status quo without lying, misleading, or being flat-out hypocrites. That is why we have to be constantly vigilant and relentless. As a lot of you can attest to, I have the 'relentless' part down to a science. :)

Phasing Plan for High-Speed Rail - America 2050 (http://www.america2050.org/maps/hsr-phasing/)

A phased HSR and regional implementation plan.

If today's America was like the America of the 1950's and 1960's that dared to undertake big things like the interstate highway system and going to the moon, how quickly could this become a reality? HSR hubs in NYC, DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Dallas, Denver, LA, and Seattle with modern conventional service in other parts of the country is something I think we can and should do. It will take political willpower and a change in national priorities to make it possible.

http://www.america2050.org/images/2050_Map_Passenger_Network_150.png

Going to need to see some leadership changes in some of the states to make that happen. Ohio and Wisconsin have already rejected HSR funding in their states.

Going to need to see some leadership changes in some of the states to make that happen. Ohio and Wisconsin have already rejected HSR funding in their states.

And constant battles and engagement against disinformation from entities with vested interests in keeping Americans slaves to the automobile.

Public Meeting on passenger rail on August 15th at Metrotech:

Passenger rail connecting Tulsa and Oklahoma City gets in-depth look - CatoosaTimes.com: News (http://catoosatimes.com/news/passenger-rail-connecting-tulsa-and-oklahoma-city-gets-in-depth/article_4ba069d2-0a9f-5873-86ae-ec0fd96cda12.html)

Project Website:

Tulsa-Oklahoma City Corridor Investment Plan - About the Plan (http://tulsaokcrailcorridor.com/)

As mentioned in the previous post, new meetings are scheduled to get public input.

Meetings set in Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Stroud on passenger railroad service options | News OK (http://newsok.com/meetings-set-in-oklahoma-city-tulsa-stroud-on-passenger-railroad-service-options/article/3871452)

I love it that a lot of the interest is being driven by the smaller communities in Oklahoma. They fully understand how having affordable and reliable access to the goods and services of the major metro areas benefits them, as well as the economic development opportunities it opens up for them locally. It is the modern equivalent to getting a paved road to go past your town. As has been demonstrated with other systems; cities, communities, towns, and neighborhoods will all beg to be included and anyone opting out will regret it in a few years.

Unfortunately ODOT doesn't give a rip about the interest - and interests - of Oklahoma communities. They could build, upgrade, operate, and maintain regional rail between OKC and Tulsa on the state owned corridor for less than half the cost of 4 miles of highway. So why doesn't this resonate if Oklahoma is so fiscally conservative? It looks like people are finally beginning to challenge the wastefulness and incompetence at ODOR.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Area_deserves_the_train_service_it_pays_for/20130813_222_A11_ULNSbW763482

I agree with everything in that article except the part about no operational subsidies. If the private automobile can be subsidized 8 ways from Sunday why can't public mass transit be subsidized?

Be aware that ODOT is intent on pushing to study a "plan" that is simply not viable. It is going to take many calls to our governor and legislators to get this focus of regional rail initiatives back to something that is affordable. As much as I think high speed rail is very cool, it simply does not make sense for OKC-Tulsa. They want to waste another $3 million studying a $2 Billion "plan" that has absolutely no reasonable chance of being built. This is even more galling to me as a taxpayer because ODOT has in their possession the Carter-Burgess study showing conventional service could be implemented for a fraction of that amount yet they want to pretend that information does not exist.

This is even more true when the state already owns a conventional rail corridor that could be upgraded and in operation for less than one or two lanes of the I-40 Crosstown - and running within a year. Oklahoma is in a very enviable position because the state possesses the right of way and has an operating railroad lessee ready to cooperate with making the upgrades. Optimized conventional rail service is the practical and feasible option that would get most of the speed and capacity of ODOT's silly HSR "plan" studying with about 5% of the cost. But in yet another example of ODOT's incompetance or worse, they are trying to quietly sell this corridor off without any public oversight effectively ending the prospect of a fiscally responsible regional rail operation between OKC and Tulsa.

We need to demand better from ODOT - they waste far more taxpayer dollars than DHS ever dreamed of. We need to demand our elecged officials grow a spine and start holding people like Gary Ridley and the rest of ODOT accountable for their abysmal failure to be good stewards of taxpayer money. So show up to these meetings and start demanding accountability and workable transportation solutions for Oklahoma.

https://sphotos-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/999080_602020086487554_1180778205_n.jpg

Capt Dave, do you get the feeling ODOT is proposing the absurd so they can argue against it even though no one else has suggested it?

They are proposing the $2 Billion absurdity to claim they are "working on" getting a rail link between OKC and Tulsa - and when they are denied federal assistance they will blame it on the feds. Then say "We tried but they said no. So instead we will add a lane or 12 to the turnpike."

The New Mexico Railrunner cost $150 million for phase 1 and $250 million for phase 2. It is 97 miles long and has 13 stations. Not an exact comparison but probably close enough.

I think we may have some cost advantages due to state ownership of the right of way and the presence of rail operations on it now.

I know ODOT plans to use NMDOT to "talk down" the conventional option. Evidently with the change in New Mexico's governor, the attitude toward the Railrunner is one that considers it a nuisance. Not 100% sure, but it sounds that way from a couple of comments I heard at last year's Eastern Flyer Task Force.

But the Railrunner, Northstar, and Utah systems should provide decent comparisons.

Funny thing about the Railrunner. Opponents criticize the operating subsidy and say that money should have been spent on roads - as if spending money on a non-revenue generating road isn't a subsidy. Classic example of "I bought a car and everyone else should pay for a place for me to drive it - and any money not used for the purpose is a wasteful subsidy".

I thought this was a clear view of the problem facing those that want to move this state forward...

Demonstrators demand action on Tulsa-OKC passenger rail service | Tulsa World (http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Demonstrators_demand_action_on_Tulsa_OKC_passenger/20130814_11_A1_Protes946139?subj=1)

A clip from the article...

"Their protest is really a separate issue," said David Streb, ODOT's director of engineering.

Protesters, including Tulsan Mildred Banks, argued that ODOT isn't really interested in being in the passenger rail business and would rather sell off existing rail lines after the feasibility study shows a high-speed passenger rail line is not feasible.

"We're willing to not have high-speed rail," Banks said, holding a sign outside the open-house meeting. "High-speed rail is prohibitively expensive. ... Rather than have zero (passenger rail) we'd rather just have some passenger rail."

Streb said a passenger rail line may eventually prove to be cost prohibitive, but that's what the more than 2-year study will determine.

"We really don't want to be in the rail business," Streb said.

With that the move should be made to either replace the leadership of ODOT or remove the rail responsibilities from them completely.

With that the move should be made to either replace the leadership of ODOT or remove the rail responsibilities from them completely.

The last part was the aim of a House Bill this year. Near unanimous support, but couldn't get out of conference committee. Word was that Fallin would veto, so the author's didn't push it out of conference committee.

The last part was the aim of a House Bill this year. Near unanimous support, but couldn't get out of conference committee. Word was that Fallin would veto, so the author's didn't push it out of conference committee.

Makes you wonder what is making people so anti-rail. Are they really worried oil/gas will take a major hit?

The last part was the aim of a House Bill this year. Near unanimous support, but couldn't get out of conference committee. Word was that Fallin would veto, so the author's didn't push it out of conference committee.

Was Fallin's veto due to the alleged "hit" O&G might suffer? If not, any idea why she'd veto it?

I have no clue. Jeff (Urban Pioneer) may have some guesses. I would guess that the road lobby had more to do with it. Many in the rail industry are saying O&G, especially crude, are better off shipping by rail than pipeline, so from a product shipping standpoint, rail is key.

Plus, don't most rail engines use petroleum products for fuel?

I thought this was a clear view of the problem facing those that want to move this state forward...

Demonstrators demand action on Tulsa-OKC passenger rail service | Tulsa World (http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Demonstrators_demand_action_on_Tulsa_OKC_passenger/20130814_11_A1_Protes946139?subj=1)

A clip from the article...


With that the move should be made to either replace the leadership of ODOT or remove the rail responsibilities from them completely.If they don't want to be in the rail business, that is excellent. Now they need to get the hell of the way for a group that does and can make it happen. TxDOT is really wanting to get their rail going and I think we will miss a great opportunity if we don't get on board VERY soon.

"We really don't want to be in the rail business," Streb said.

In a more perfect world Streb would be spending Friday posting his resume on Monster.com. This kind of attitude is totally inappropriate for a state department of transportation official. If he doesn't want to do it he needs to step out of the way and let someone else take the lead.

Streb said a passenger rail line may eventually prove to be cost prohibitive, but that's what the more than 2-year study will determine.

Right, cause the freeways and highways they usually build are never cost prohibitive to construct, maintain, widen or update to modern standards

A nice article from the Edmond Sun : Ready to commute? » Local News » The Edmond Sun (http://www.edmondsun.com/local/x789507021/Ready-to-commute)

This is pretty interesting to.


Ninety-seven percent of ODOT funding goes to roads and bridges, Morrissette told The Edmond Sun. “The rest of it is supposed to go to transit, alternative rail, etcetera"

I think I found the problem:


Also, ODOT conducted the 2001 ODOT High Speed Passenger Rail Feasibility Study, the 2002 Oklahoma High Speed Rail Initiative: Oklahoma City to Tulsa High Speed Rail Corridor Cost Study, the 2010-2035 Oklahoma Long Range Transportation Plan and the 2012 ODOT Oklahoma Statewide Freight and Passenger Rail Study. - See more at: Ready to commute? » Local News » The Edmond Sun (http://www.edmondsun.com/local/x789507021/Ready-to-commute#sthash.UgP3gyhu.dpuf)

I think at this point ODOT needs less studying and more doing.

I think I found the problem:



I think at this point ODOT needs less studying and more doing.Agreed! What are you thinking, HSR route between OKC and Tulsa or a basic commuter rail?

Optimized conventional is the only thing that makes sense. Get the right of way into Class I condition with CTC and get trains running - will take less than a year. This can be done for 5% of the cost of ODOT's HSR diversion/delusion. As traffic increases on the line, look at double tracking more of it and straightening curves - 5 years out. When HSR eventually becomes a priority and given sufficient funding, run that line along the tunrpike - 10 years at least I'm afraid, probably longer unless voters wake up and quit sending people to Congress of the sort we have been for the last several years.

Optimized conventional is the only thing that makes sense. Get the right of way into Class I condition with CTC and get trains running - will take less than a year. This can be done for 5% of the cost of ODOT's HSR diversion/delusion. As traffic increases on the line, look at double tracking more of it and straightening curves - 5 years out. When HSR eventually becomes a priority and given sufficient funding, run that line along the tunrpike - 10 years at least I'm afraid, probably longer unless voters wake up and quit sending people to Congress of the sort we have been for the last several years.

I agree CaptDave. Rail from Tulsa to OKC needs to serve the towns in between with local commuter trains and still have express trains a couple of time per day. One of the challenges will be the vast number of at-grade crossings. There is a bunch. I counted them one time and I think it was around 100 with many of them having nothing more than a sign that says railroad crossing. Those crossing will either need to be closed or have crossing gates added. It was thing to have a slow moving freight train hit a car, it is something else for passenger train going 85 mph to hit a car.

To be honest, I think true HSR only makes sense in a few areas of the US and it is probably costs to much to build it in those places.

Optimized conventional is the only thing that makes sense. Get the right of way into Class I condition with CTC and get trains running - will take less than a year. This can be done for 5% of the cost of ODOT's HSR diversion/delusion. As traffic increases on the line, look at double tracking more of it and straightening curves - 5 years out. When HSR eventually becomes a priority and given sufficient funding, run that line along the tunrpike - 10 years at least I'm afraid, probably longer unless voters wake up and quit sending people to Congress of the sort we have been for the last several years.That sounds nice and a reasonable approach to that the voters can build on and maybe realize that a future HSR route will be an economic benefit to us.

The problem with ODOT's "plan" is it ignores a couple things. One is as JTF said, HSR is prohibitively expensive right now - ODOT floats that idea knowing full well they will not get $2 Billion in federal assistance to build a 100 mile line that doesn't connect to anything else. Second - countries that have HSR systems still have conventional service to most destinations. Their conventional service beats the crap out of 90% of the places in the US though. Conventional service and HSR are not mutually exclusive as ODOT keeps proposing. Both are part of comprehensive rail systems. HSR generally runs to the larger cities and conventional serves as the feeder system to the larger stations. There are numerous reasons passenger rail service in the US is so pathetic compared to the rest of the developed world and it is going to take a LOT of effort to overcome groups with vested interests in maintaining the status quo and the disinformation about subsidies and cost of rail.

There are numerous reasons passenger rail service in the US is so pathetic compared to the rest of the developed world and it is going to take a LOT of effort to overcome groups with vested interests in maintaining the status quo and the disinformation about subsidies and cost of rail.

If we could just get the tea party types to realize that the public should fund public transportation and not the private automobile we would have half the battle won.

Well we have one on our side! Gotta start somewhere right? ;)

If we could just get the tea party types to realize that the public should fund public transportation and not the private automobile we would have half the battle won.

Kerry, you should have more influence there than us non tea party types, so have at it.

Kerry, you should have more influence there than us non tea party types, so have at it.

LOL - I do it every chance I get, but when I bring it up with my fellow tea partiers they start twitching like the 6 minute abs hitchhiker from Something About Mary. They have a hard time processing that they are the ones living the suburban lifestyle that is making the government cost so much and requiring it to regulate everything.

Why do you even associate with that group then?

Not being rude, but from my interaction with you, you literally share almost nothing in common with the tea party?

Why do you even associate with that group then?

Not being rude, but from my interaction with you, you literally share almost nothing in common with the tea party?

Before evolving to its current form, the tea party was fairly reasonable in wanting actual fiscal conservative policies. Not many of them ever addressed the root cause as JTF does though. The TP of today barely resembles what it looked like in its beginning. The reasons for that are for another section of OKCTalk but suffice to say I once thought the TP made some good points and now I am one of the most anti-TP people you will find.

I'm sorry, this is too funny to not post everywhere. And Tulsans wonder why we think they have a chip on their shoulder.

"4. Who really wants or needs to go to Oklahoma City on a frequent basis? Politicians, lobbyists, some business people, the occasional protester and some Thunder basketball fans."

Is Tulsa-OKC passenger train possible? | Tulsa World (http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Is_Tulsa_OKC_passenger_train_possible/20130818_11_G1_Dsusna745327)

[Deleted - Double post with above]

What I would like to know is what would it take to straighten out the line and improve track quality by enough to increase maximum speeds to 79 MPH and then also 90 MPH.

I would be a little suspect of the trains future success if there are no plans to increases speeds.
If you build a poor product you will get poor results... The 75 MPH speed limit on the Turner Turnpike means lower ridership numbers if the train moves at a slow 60 MPH.

A reliable frequent train between OKC and Tulsa would tie the 2 metros into one larger more effective buisness/social community. They are only 100 miles apart with an exsisting right of way. A blank slate with a doable price tag that makes perfect sense...... There is not even a slight chance this will happen in Oklahoma.

A reliable frequent train between OKC and Tulsa would tie the 2 metros into one larger more effective buisness/social community. They are only 100 miles apart with an exsisting right of way. A blank slate with a doable price tag that makes perfect sense...... There is not even a slight chance this will happen in Oklahoma.

Makes too much sense for today's Oklahoma legislature and DOT doesn't it? I understand the cynicism (realism maybe?) TAlanCB, but I decided to go in and try talking to anyone I meet in the legislature and city government, writing the governor, or whatever else I can think of. Maybe I am tilting windmills, but maybe we will get lucky and actually see commuter rail finally be given the consideration it deserves in Oklahoma. Definitely all uphill though.

Makes too much sense for today's Oklahoma legislature and DOT doesn't it? I understand the cynicism (realism maybe?) TAlanCB, but I decided to go in and try talking to anyone I meet in the legislature and city government, writing the governor, or whatever else I can think of. Maybe I am tilting windmills, but maybe we will get lucky and actually see commuter rail finally be given the consideration it deserves in Oklahoma. Definitely all uphill though.

The only thing worse than trying is ... not.

Why do you even associate with that group then?

Not being rude, but from my interaction with you, you literally share almost nothing in common with the tea party?

Because I still believe that the government we say we want, the government that our lifestyle requires, and the government we can afford - should all be the same government. If people don't want to pay higher taxes and don't want to incur more government debt (the founding principles of the tea party) then we have to change our lifestyle to live within our means. The tea party is 2/3rds of the way there.

I'm sorry, this is too funny to not post everywhere. And Tulsans wonder why we think they have a chip on their shoulder.

"4. Who really wants or needs to go to Oklahoma City on a frequent basis? Politicians, lobbyists, some business people, the occasional protester and some Thunder basketball fans."

Is Tulsa-OKC passenger train possible? | Tulsa World (http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Is_Tulsa_OKC_passenger_train_possible/20130818_11_G1_Dsusna745327)

While that little cheap shot was completely unnecessary (and unsurprising from the self righteous 918ers), the article does bring up a good point. The only way for this to work if for some sort of decent public transportation to exist at both ends of the line. OKC is putting in the streetcar, which was oddly omitted from that write up. But there would need to be some sort of upgraded bus service between the station and the capitol or OUHSC.

Also, Tulsa is proposing BRT along Peoria Avenue. Which is fine, but it comes nowhere close to DT where a potential station would probably go to.

I don't feel there is love lost for the OTA, so the fact that it goes a little slower than if you were just driving would not be a big deal IMO. But it does need to be convenient for riders on both ends.

I'm sorry, this is too funny to not post everywhere. And Tulsans wonder why we think they have a chip on their shoulder.

"4. Who really wants or needs to go to Oklahoma City on a frequent basis? Politicians, lobbyists, some business people, the occasional protester and some Thunder basketball fans."

Is Tulsa-OKC passenger train possible? | Tulsa World (http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Is_Tulsa_OKC_passenger_train_possible/20130818_11_G1_Dsusna745327)

You know, that one line is probably the single greatest insight into the psyche of the writer and his own self defeatist outlook on life. Instead of focusing on why a Tulsan would want to go to OKC, the 'glass is half full' outlook would be Tulsa's access to the OKCs population for Tulsa's benefit. The train goes both ways. The questions isn't "why would someone from Tulsa want to go to OKC", the question for Tulsa should be "how do we get as many people from OKC to visit Tulsa". Unless of course, he thinks Tulsans would flee Tulsa at every opportunity and all trains TO Tulsa would arrive empty. What does that tell you of his own opinion of Tulsa?

A reliable frequent train between OKC and Tulsa would tie the 2 metros into one larger more effective buisness/social community. They are only 100 miles apart with an exsisting right of way. A blank slate with a doable price tag that makes perfect sense...... There is not even a slight chance this will happen in Oklahoma.


There is no chance that this would ever be built if you can make the trip faster by driving...
The only way this should be built is if it is time and cost competitive with diving on the turnpike, but to be so, it makes for a very tough business model to sale to the decision makers.

You are assuming people want to own a car ou48A. I am encouraging my kids not to make the same costly mistakes I made and live in a place that doesn't require car ownership. When I look back over the years on the money I have spent on cars, gasoline, insurance, repairs, tires, etc... I have wasted a lot of money because after all that expense I only have two assets to show for it, and they are worth less than I paid for them, let alone how much I have spent over the year on auto-based transportation.

If you went back over your whole life how much do you think you have spent on transportation? Between my wife and we are up over $500,000 and all we have is a Durango and a Ram pickup to show for that $500,000. Between you and me, I would rather have the money.

You are assuming people want to own a car ou48A.

most people do

most people do

Do they? If they lived in a space where all modes were equal, would everyone "want" to own a car?

most people do

Yes,,,,^ the vast majority of people want to own the freedom that comes with car ownership. We have seen that in virtually every major society in the world.


And even if they don't, in our society, particularly in smaller city's and towns its pretty much required.
Highways haul our good and services and make modern living possible.
Highways are a necessity that will never go away.