I have a question for you guys.
What could be done to improve the 39th and Penn area of town also known as "The Gayborhood". The shops, stores, clubs and bars on 39th are kinda run down and could stand to be improved. Also I am thinking lighting and landscaping. (Similar to the Asian District or 10th and just west of Western)
While not near downtown, I think that the retail strip on 39th offers an urban setup similar to the retail strip in the plaza district (16th between Classen and Penn).
Also, what are thoughts on naming? Because if you ask me "Gayborhood" "39th and Penn" "Gay District" all sound kinda flaky and almost like segregation. What would be something that reflects the history of the area?

On the clubs, while I don't want to close them down, I think that something needs to be done about the crowds at night (I have never been there but the stories that I have hear are just awful) if Bricktown can have such a concentration of clubs and bars and maintain a clean atmosphere other portions of the city should be able to do it as well.

I am thinking if we could get our ideas in a row and hammered out, we could approach the City and maybe OKC Pride about cleaning up this side of town, and presenting a more unified city on all fronts.

Thoughts?

I have to agree with you, the area is run down and seedy. Yes, lighting and sidewalks would certianly help as well as some landscaping. You hear of gay pride, I have not seen any in the 39th district. Part of the problem is the rehab or some type of facility that is in the block. I hear there have been some robberies and harrassment of indivual gay men that visit the clubs and or restaurants. I believe it's part city and property owners is why the area has that creepy feeling. Why invest if you will get the crowd anyway. It all goes back to their pocket books. With the recent anti-gay agenda of Mrs Kearn and her followers I am sure the city is reluctant to persue any kind of improvements or activity in the area to avoid a possible quagmire. Maybe they think if the area is ignored it will die a slow death. As to a name perhaps just call in 39th and leave it at that.

There is a decent urban streetscape there already, it just needs some sidewalk and lighting improvements. 39th Street, just as the retail/dining district along Western is simply called "Western", seems fine to me. No need to make it exclusively for gays. I agree that particular area needs some work, the overall neighborhood is fairly nice though especially the eastern end closer to Classen.

I know of one beautification project in the works, but am not able to disclose any details yet.

I am glad that I am not the only person that is concerned with the state of this particular portion of the city. I couldn't agree more with BG in that we need to try and make sure that this is not only a destination for gays and lesbians, but for all people of the city. Have some more exclusive shops and the like.

I look forward to seeing/hearing the beautification project that you speak of metro! Do you have a time frame?

If Oklahoma City thinks the Gay area will die, by neglecting that area, they are in for a rude awaking. Gay people do not care if the area is "Ghetto". Hello! That is where gay people always make their stomping ground!
It's cheap, and centrally located! Take for instance the gay area in Dallas, it was once a seedy, and "ghetto" area. Now it is a thriving district, one of the most expensive in the city of Dallas. Land value is sky rocketing and gay's are profiting! This occurs in most major cities. Gays are the brave ones who step in and take over ghetto areas, and in the end are the winners! They add flare, and excitement to rather seedy neighborhoods, and eventually others notice and get interested.

If Oklahoma City thinks the Gay area will die, by neglecting that area, they are in for a rude awaking. Gay people do not care if the area is "Ghetto". Hello! That is where gay people always make their stomping ground!
It's cheap, and centrally located! Take for instance the gay area in Dallas, it was once a seedy, and "ghetto" area. Now it is a thriving district, one of the most expensive in the city of Dallas. Land value is sky rocketing and gay's are profiting! This occurs in most major cities. Gays are the brave ones who step in and take over ghetto areas, and in the end are the winners! They add flare, and excitement to rather seedy neighborhoods, and eventually others notice and get interested.

Interesting that this occured at NW 39 & Penn, why this area? What is the history? Why not other historically "seedy" areas like NW 23 & Classen or NW 10 & Broadway?

It's always messy to deal in demographics and stereotypes, but typically gay people are more educated, better paid, and more loyal customers than the public at large. This is evident in cities with thriving gay districts. They typically tend to be higher end, upscale rental districts, or at least they end up that way.

Of course, in areas where they are oppressed, either socially or statutorily, you're obviously going to see less progress and less organization in districts frequented by or targeted to gay lifestyles. As of now, I think that's kind of where we sit. Our leaders are either completely silent when it comes to gay issues, or outspokenly hateful towards the community. Unfortunately, this is a pretty accurate reflection of the community.

However, based on empirical and anecdotal evidence of other cities, it is highly likely that if the city did show some interest in maintaining the area and making it more attractive, the gay community would respond more actively than some of the other communities we have tried to spruce up. IMO, though, this is very dependent on gays living in that area, and I am not sure if it's really concentrated that way. Throughout most of our fair city, there is not much density of any characteristic in one area, making it hard for districts to capitalize on certain unique and identifiable qualities.

In the end, sethsrott makes some good points. I'm not sure if it needs to be sold or presented as a project for the gay community. We should be intent on maintaining our city's infrastructure in a way that preserves it for future generations and to make it a viable option to the suburbs for at least some people. The fact that the district does attract many to the city, regardless of lifestyle, should be motivation enough for us to want to maintain it. From a purely business and city management standpoint, the district is ripe for public investment to help improve and maintain the area. Hopefully, if we do put some effort into the area, we will see matched improvements by the community that is typical of gay districts across the country.

Interesting that this occured at NW 39 & Penn, why this area? What is the history? Why not other historically "seedy" areas like NW 23 & Classen or NW 10 & Broadway?

You know I have thought about that many times. I always thought the paseo area would be the "gay area". It was artsy and seedy. I am not sure. I think Scott Wilson, who opened the first gay club, just saw open land, and it was cheap. Convient, not far from 44, and central. There you have it.

It's always messy to deal in demographics and stereotypes, but typically gay people are more educated, better paid, and more loyal customers than the public at large. This is evident in cities with thriving gay districts. They typically tend to be higher end, upscale rental districts, or at least they end up that way.

Of course, in areas where they are oppressed, either socially or statutorily, you're obviously going to see less progress and less organization in districts frequented by or targeted to gay lifestyles. As of now, I think that's kind of where we sit. Our leaders are either completely silent when it comes to gay issues, or outspokenly hateful towards the community. Unfortunately, this is a pretty accurate reflection of the community.

However, based on empirical and anecdotal evidence of other cities, it is highly likely that if the city did show some interest in maintaining the area and making it more attractive, the gay community would respond more actively than some of the other communities we have tried to spruce up. IMO, though, this is very dependent on gays living in that area, and I am not sure if it's really concentrated that way. Throughout most of our fair city, there is not much density of any characteristic in one area, making it hard for districts to capitalize on certain unique and identifiable qualities.

In the end, sethsrott makes some good points. I'm not sure if it needs to be sold or presented as a project for the gay community. We should be intent on maintaining our city's infrastructure in a way that preserves it for future generations and to make it a viable option to the suburbs for at least some people. The fact that the district does attract many to the city, regardless of lifestyle, should be motivation enough for us to want to maintain it. From a purely business and city management standpoint, the district is ripe for public investment to help improve and maintain the area. Hopefully, if we do put some effort into the area, we will see matched improvements by the community that is typical of gay districts across the country.

Very well stated!

Very good points made by both posters... with its proximity to Penn Square Mall and 50 Penn Place I would hope that the 'enclave' would organize themselves into a maybe work with OKC Pride, Neighborhood Association to do things like community cleanup initiatives, work with some of the businesses that would benefit from increased property values and fund like a paint the neighborhood day or something.

But BDP is absolutely right, as long as we have elected officials who are strongly anti-gay it will be hard to motivate a community to serve a city that appears to not want them.

Metro, you are such a tease. I can't wait to hear the details. I too think the Paseo is a great area. I love the 1st Friday.

New money is going into the district... The boom is relocating there and a large new building for dinner theatre is under construction.

BUT this is only a BAR district....I don't think the area will ever gentrify to a point that gays are moving to the area and investing in the homes. I think other areas of the city are more attractive to gays as far as their home goes.

The north side of 39th in the area is owned by one guy... he makes a killing... why invest in the area when you've got the market cornered? It's a greed thing I'm guessing.

You know I have thought about that many times. I always thought the paseo area would be the "gay area". It was artsy and seedy. I am not sure. I think Scott Wilson, who opened the first gay club, just saw open land, and it was cheap. Convient, not far from 44, and central. There you have it.

I think it had more to do with the hotel than Scott Wilson (we wasn't the first)....

An old lesbian (hehehe) I know tells me that in the 30s and 40s the gay bars were downtown.

There's a pretty decent gay population just east of Penn in the Putnam Heights area.

There's a pretty decent gay population just east of Penn in the Putnam Heights area.

That's the nicer area I was thinking about in my above post. East of Penn south of I-44 (Putnam Heights) to Classen and Western north around NW 36 into Crown Heights is a very good inner city neighborhood and probably one of the most diverse in OKC. The neighborhood becomes sketchy as you go west of Penn as well as parts east of Penn south of NW 36 to OCU, but seems to be improving and hopefully as more people move into this area will get even better. I know with people my age (mid-late 20's) the Crown Heights/Edgemere Park area is very popular if you're looking for a house. I think that will shift more to the west and south with time..

BUT this is only a BAR district....I don't think the area will ever gentrify to a point that gays are moving to the area and investing in the homes. I think other areas of the city are more attractive to gays as far as their home goes.

I'd always hoped that they could do something to improve the area. I happen to be gay myself, but personally I'm not much of a bar/club person. (And I'm not 21 yet so pretty much the only place I could get into would be the Wreckroom anyway!) It would be great if more businesses/organizations that cater to the LGBT community could establish presences in the area, aside from bars of course. Maybe something like the Equality Center run by Oklahomans for Equality in Tulsa? Equality Center: Overview (http://okeq.org/equalitycenter.cfm)

There's a pretty decent gay population just east of Penn in the Putnam Heights area.

You're right... I lived on 35th between Penn and Classen last year... seemed like all my neighbors were gay.

One of the reasons 39th happened is you only have a residential neighborhood to the south of it. #2 there were 9 clubs there at one time. # 3 Gladys Wilson Floral was on the corner of 39th and Penn (Yes related to Scott Wilson - his mother) #4 It was a run down area with cheap rent.... therefore bars could be started for almost nothing. compared to other areas anyway. #5 There was a high density of young gay living in the area from 23rd to 50th robinson to may. At one time when you went to the safeway at the corner of 39th and Penn you felt you were in GAY shopping mecca...... well you were at that time anyway.

One of the reasons 39th happened is you only have a residential neighborhood to the south of it. #2 there were 9 clubs there at one time. # 3 Gladys Wilson Floral was on the corner of 39th and Penn (Yes related to Scott Wilson - his mother) #4 It was a run down area with cheap rent.... therefore bars could be started for almost nothing. compared to other areas anyway. #5 There was a high density of young gay living in the area from 23rd to 50th robinson to may. At one time when you went to the safeway at the corner of 39th and Penn you felt you were in GAY shopping mecca...... well you were at that time anyway.

And the Habana Inn plays an important role in keeping that area happening. The gays saved the Habana Inn from going bankrupt during the 1980s by taking their pickups there from the bars for the night. Before the end of the 80's management decided becoming entirely gay oriented was the only way to go.

I think political leaders in Oklahoma City and the State Capitol need to me more friendly to gays, rather than saying and doing things to make them feel unwelcome, so they might as well move to Dallas or Denver where gays have equal rights spelled into law. If I was gay and wanting to go into business in OKC, I would surely have to find out first if gays have actually been fleeing from the bad political atmosphere against them in Oklahoma City.

However, Oklahoma City having elected the first gay representative for the State Capitol and sending him back for a second term with no opposition certainly sends some sharp crosswinds that cut through the anti-gay atmosphere.

I've often wondered the same question posed by this thread, but I think it mostly comes down to what platemaker says...it's bar district, not really a mixed entertainment/retail district. I wish we had something a little more like what Tulsa does, with a residential "gayborhood" growing up near downtown and the burgeoning entertainment district.

Tulsa has less of a gayborhood than OKC does.

I think if they "gay" wanted to make a difference and have some stores then they should go for it. They could have a trendy area that would be like Paseo with trendy clothing stores and cafes with "friendly waiters".

I've often wondered the same question posed by this thread, but I think it mostly comes down to what platemaker says...it's bar district, not really a mixed entertainment/retail district.

Although it isnt much, I do think there is some buildings there well-suited for retail. There is a small collection of older, great looking building that would just need some new windows and they would be ready to go. Now that I say that, Im kind of surprised there hasnt been more business activity along that stretch of 39th.

39th & Penn was just plain seedy last time I was there. I have had friends mugged, and I have seen all sorts of aggressive panhandlers in the area. If you're not accosted by the drugged out criminal beggers looking for a fix, then you're confronted by the jesus peddlers trying to cheapen your self-image. The few police in the area were only there to harass the patrons of the clubs. OKC deserves better than this, but I think fault lies mainly with the property owners. Yes, the city has not been helpful. But most the property owners simply don't care... and it shows. I stopped frequenting the area 10 years ago.

The area has awesome demographics within a fairly small radius. It is close to Crown Heights, Nichols Hills, Putnam Heights, and Penn Square. It is right off the interstate and has good access to OCU. This area should be full of higher-density residential developments and nice retail. I've always wondered what went wrong there.

The few police in the area were only there to harass the patrons of the clubs. OKC deserves better than this, but I think fault lies mainly with the property owners. Yes, the city has not been helpful. But most the property owners simply don't care... and it shows. I stopped frequenting the area 10 years ago.

The area has awesome demographics within a fairly small radius. It is close to Crown Heights, Nichols Hills, Putnam Heights, and Penn Square. It is right off the interstate and has good access to OCU. This area should be full of higher-density residential developments and nice retail. I've always wondered what went wrong there.

I think you are correct, why would the city want to invest in an area where businesses seem to not care, when those dollars could be spent in a district where the dollars are not only wanted but asked for. I think that an advisory council, kinda a Main Street idea would go over greatly. Someone to go to the City and State Capitol and even the Federal Government to obtain grants and the like.

As for crime, the last time that I was in the area it was at night and I didn't feel unsafe, there was a police car outside of Angles whom I spoke to and he said that he wasn't out here because of any disturbances, just to protect and serve. Which I took as a good sign.

On another note, I was going to Penn Square Mall and I decided to take Penn and I noticed that the City is rebuilding a bridge just north of I-44, the bridge was in pretty bad shape. Just a note on development in the area.

In 1992, I inherited some rental property 2 blocks South of this area, after tired of getting burned by renters, I decided to sell the properties, was on the market for several months, had several lookers, but all of them mentioned the bars as one reason the decided to look in other areas.

Finally sold to out of state investor after 13 months on the market.

Yeah I agree that the city probably shouldn't invest in the area until the property owners get together and show some kind of progressive leadership.

Read this site pretty ofter, but this thread got me to register and post.

I moved to that area a couple years ago, East of Penn, just south of 39th. Young, professional, first time home owner (not gay). Was looking at homes in Edmond, but fell in love with the old homes of NW OKC. Really wanted to get in Heritage Hills, Mesta Park, Edgemere etc, but they were a little out of my price range (at least one that was renovated). I settled on this beautiful, fully restored, 1929 home and thought the neighborhood had promise. At that time many homes in the area were being restored/renovated/flipped and it looked like an area that could be up and comming in the next 10 yrs. But with the recent housing market all of that has stopped. Several nice homes have been sitting on the market of a long time now. The area is spotty to say the least. Two homes right on my street, which have great potential are now being turned into rentals by some pretty shady people. A couple years ago these home would have been bought, restored, and sold to people like myself. There is only one route I feel comfortable taking my dogs on a walk. I have to zig zag through my area to keep from being hassled for money or loose dogs attacking us.

Sadly, I feel that the area just won't make it. The 39th and Penn commercial area could be something, but I just don't see it happening.

I have thought about moving, now that I can afford a home in a better area. But I feel like I would be selling out. I really want this area to make it.

last sat night, there was a random drunk lady passed out on my front lawn. A couple months ago I almost got in a fight with a man asking for money outside a gas station. I get beer bottles thrown in my yard on a daily basis. Homeless walking the neighborhood often come up to my front porch and ask for money. Now with two houses next two me being turned into rentals, I don't think this area is ever going to turn the corner.

Yikes. That's really bad Mike. I live near 36th and May, and I'll admit I'm wary to start running in the neighborhood, even in daylight, but it's nothing like that.

I would have a hard time sticking it out like you.

I think you are more likely to see The Paseo or Midtown replace 39th as the "gayborhood" than for the bar owners there to invest in it or clean it up.

Yikes. That's really bad Mike. I live near 36th and May, and I'll admit I'm wary to start running in the neighborhood, even in daylight, but it's nothing like that.

I would have a hard time sticking it out like you.

I think you are more likely to see The Paseo or Midtown replace 39th as the "gayborhood" than for the bar owners there to invest in it or clean it up.

Sadly I think you are right. We talk about pride, but lets give everyone something to be proud of! What I hope doesn't happen is as the Community relocates the Clubs and Bars also move, there by bringing this problem to Paseo or Midtown. But even if they would move I think that what would keep this problem from reappearing is the standards that he neighborhoods have imposed on themselves. Standards which, as I said, are missing from the 39th & Penn district.

Mike, I am sorry that your neighborhood is in such disrepair. I wish something could be done, but unfortunately Oklahoma City Police seem to be understaffed (See the Police Chief's Report) or they do not seem to want to do their jobs.

How much would it cost to divert one of the three police cars that sit in bricktown ever night and send him down to your neighborhood to patrol for the night? That would have a lasting impact on your neighborhood.

Wow, as hard as it to hear, that's a great perspective MikeD.

The simple truth is there are too many 'older', somewhat neglected neighborhoods in OKC. Those areas have been pretty abandoned for some time, and it's going to take some time for some of them to come around... And obviously that will happen (and is already happening) in other areas first.

There are still pretty big areas inside I-44 that are struggling. I just hope some of them can turn around and stay there and that that trend ultimate reaches more places.

It's going to take a long time, however. People have been fleeing these areas for 50 years, and it can't all be turned around in a decade.

At that time many homes in the area were being restored/renovated/flipped and it looked like an area that could be up and comming in the next 10 yrs. I think it's the "flipped" part of that equation that kept your neighborhood from growing. Too many folks looking to make a profit, rather than a home.

Yikes. That's really bad Mike. I live near 36th and May, and I'll admit I'm wary to start running in the neighborhood, even in daylight, but it's nothing like that.

I would have a hard time sticking it out like you.

I think you are more likely to see The Paseo or Midtown replace 39th as the "gayborhood" than for the bar owners there to invest in it or clean it up.

Maybe I was a little harsh. Going back and reading my post, it does sound pretty bad.

There are some great neighbors who take very good care of their houses. Some streets are better than others. My street is one of the better ones, but we still get the "bad" passing through. A main road runs right past my house to a pretty bad apt complex about 7 blocks away. Although I don't consider the apt complex part of the neighborhood, it seems that road is the main way people take to get there. Many of the beer bottles in my yard I am sure are tossed from the cars driving to the apt complex and many of the people who like to ask for money as they walk by I am sure are heading to that complex. But it effects the neighborhood either way.

I just wish the neighborhood could turn that corner. I truly believe it was heading in that direction but now with the housing situation less people are willing to take the chance on fixing up these beautiful old homes.

Hang in there, Mike.

These neighborhoods tend to go through a not-always-linear process in the short term. Meaning, things get a little better, then a little worse and that continues for a while.

But generally, the trend is positive when looked at from a more macro level. I can assure you that area is much improved from 20 years ago when I last lived in OKC. And considering it is a great location with lots of charm, I think in the longer term you will be happy if you stay.

Is there any type of neighborhood association in the area that is being mentioned?

I was on my way to Lowes today and there were city trucks putting up some orange cones in the westbound lane. This was to the east of Penn on 39th. I wonder if this is the start of the project that was mentioned earlier in the treat?

It's not the one I mentioned. It may just be street improvements/sidewalks related to the bond issue. I know they were working on Penn just north of I-44 so it's possible it's the same resurfacing, etc. It's not the beautification project I hinted at.

Is 39th and Penn going to be shut down temporarily or will you still be able to get through??

I think it's the "flipped" part of that equation that kept your neighborhood from growing. Too many folks looking to make a profit, rather than a home.


:confused: A "filpped" house is simply a home being purchase, fixed up, and sold. It is a great things for neighborhoods such as mine.

An older house in bad condition goes on the market for say, $50K. That home can go several different ways. It will be bought by a person who's budget is $50K and they will move in and live in it "as is" for the most part. Or it will be bought by a slum lord, fixed to meet code, and rented out. Neither of which help the neighborhood.

What does help the neighborhood is the house being bought by a person who has a $150K house budget and wants to renovate the house to their own liking. Or the house being "flipped", and the person with the $150K budget buys it move in ready. Either way the properly value is increasing and the neighboorhood is looking better.

MikeD, you're forgetting option #3, it will be bought by a reasonable individual or couple who will fix it up and make it nicer, and their intent is to live there for at least a few years. Property "flippers" aren't the only ones that make a blighted neighborhood nicer, and often owners who stay and fix up are the real ones who contribute to the long-term cleanup of a neighborhood.