On an unrelated matter … people will mock me for saying so (I would have myself not too long ago), but I’m beginning to think that as Rick Dowell continues to talk about building a 30-story residential tower, by the way he does deals, it could actually happen.

What is the story on this? I cannot find anything with my Googlefu...

It's located and shown on his 3d model of his properties in his office. Sets on one of the hills in the SOSA area.

I have heard this will be on the NE corner of 5th and Dewey.

Where are the people going to come from? How long before we are overbuilt in the residential arena?

The burbs. Even in car lovin' OKC there are lots of people looking for Urban Living.

Most of today's 20-somethings grew up in homogeneous suburbia, and are now looking for the diverse and dense urban lifestyle.

I'll move down there

I read somewhere of a study that demonstrated that in the typical American metropolitan area, 2% of all residents would choose downtown living if the right options were available to them. If OKC has 1.2 million people, than there should be a market of 24,000 potential urban dwellers. OKC may not be typical because of our sprawling nature, but even if the reality in OKC is only half the national average, that would still suggest 12,000 people. I'm not sure of the exact number of current downtown residents, but it can't be even close to the low end of the "typical" range.
I would suggest that the students and residents at the medical center represent a real market, the young professionals at downtown offices that make a good living are a market, the new crop of professional athletes is a market, and, if other towns are a model, empty nesters who are no longer concerned with the schools are a market.
In short, I doubt that OKC has even scratched the surface of what could be out there.

I havent really considered living in any of the new downtown housing projects but I would seriously consider living in a tower that has units with good views

Damn straight, ADD TO THE SKYLINE!

Down here in Austin our mayor stated a goal of wanting 25,000 downtown residents by 2015, that was an increase of about 20,000 above what was living there at the time of the statement. I think that is reasonable for here and would be for OKC as well, maybe by 2020 in OKC's case because the start of large scale residential construction hasn't really taken off yet like it did here a couple of years ago, but it is still doable. Maybe market it as 20,000 by 2020....

Austin Chronicle - Downtown's Tall Order (http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid:378608)

Down here in Austin our mayor stated a goal of wanting 25,000 downtown residents by 2015, that was an increase of about 20,000 above what was living there at the time of the statement. I think that is reasonable for here and would be for OKC as well, maybe by 2020 in OKC's case because the start of large scale residential construction hasn't really taken off yet like it did here a couple of years ago, but it is still doable. Maybe market it as 20,000 by 2020....

Austin Chronicle - Downtown's Tall Order (http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid:378608)

I've actually pitched this exact idea to the mayor several months ago. I called it the 20 by 20 campaign.

Does anyone have any specifics (other than previously mentioned above) on this project. I've spent considerable time the last few months studying the SOSA market...and would love to know any additional specs. TIA

Sorry...but can someone tell me what SOSA is??

SOSA - South Of Saint Anthony

I read somewhere of a study that demonstrated that in the typical American metropolitan area, 2% of all residents would choose downtown living if the right options were available to them. If OKC has 1.2 million people, than there should be a market of 24,000 potential urban dwellers. OKC may not be typical because of our sprawling nature, but even if the reality in OKC is only half the national average, that would still suggest 12,000 people. I'm not sure of the exact number of current downtown residents, but it can't be even close to the low end of the "typical" range.
I would suggest that the students and residents at the medical center represent a real market, the young professionals at downtown offices that make a good living are a market, the new crop of professional athletes is a market, and, if other towns are a model, empty nesters who are no longer concerned with the schools are a market.
In short, I doubt that OKC has even scratched the surface of what could be out there.

Did I hear you say "new crop of professional athletes"? What's that - 12 basketball players? Triple AAA baseball players - maybe twenty? That's enough to build a highrise?

What I'm asking is, where's the new jobs? Are we just going to empty the houses in the suburbs in order to fill downtown condos?

Sorry...but can someone tell me what SOSA is??

it's a special area where this guy can live:
Silliman on Sports - a new sports and humor column (http://www.sillimanonsports.com/SammysCorked.html)

Stan Silliman - you're right in your comment on my "professional athletes" market. Upon further review, that was silly of me.

However, when you say "empty the suburbs" to fill downtown condos, that doesn't make much sense either. How much has the population of metro OKC grown in the last 10 years? By over 100,000 I think. Maybe closer to 150,000. Assuming that growth rate continues in the next decade, that's a lot of brand-new households that need somewhere to live.

This is a crazy thought, but, could someone, say, pitch Oklahoma weather into the mix?

I'm thinking of all the tornadoes in recent memory that have hit in the suburbs destroying thousands of homes--okay maybe not thousands, but you get my drift--and the memories that have been lost with them. When's the last time a tornado, whether minor or major, hit downtown OKC? A 30 story high rise with the worst case scenario being a bunch of glass flying around, should stand up to a tornado a lot better than a wood and brick frame house! Remember that tornado that went through Salt Lake City? Yes, it did damage but it could have been much more costlier had it been outside of the center of that city.

Like I said, call me crazy, lol...

Stan Silliman - you're right in your comment on my "professional athletes" market. Upon further review, that was silly of me.

However, when you say "empty the suburbs" to fill downtown condos, that doesn't make much sense either. How much has the population of metro OKC grown in the last 10 years? By over 100,000 I think. Maybe closer to 150,000. Assuming that growth rate continues in the next decade, that's a lot of brand-new households that need somewhere to live.

Agree. I don't think we're talking about emptying the suburbs at all. There are probably two demographics that are most likely to consider urban living: young professionals and empty nesters. Conversely, those are the two groups least likely to be interested in suburban living, IMO. Unfortunately, until our economy improves, people are less likely to be moving anywhere, so I don't think we're going to see a big shift of people into downtown OKC in the next few months. But, as we have more entertainment options, restaurant and shopping options, and as the economy improves. I expect our downtown will follow what has happened in other cities. Core to Shore is another key that will definitely create more interest in downtown living, I believe.

NBA players are probably not nearly as likely to live downtown as other people in the organization. We may get a few, but I think they're more into palatial living and living near the practice facility.

I think a highrise apt buildling/condos is a great idea for okc. Lived all over Okc, and by far my favorite time was living in midtown/Mesta area. It just felt more like living in a city as opposed to some place like Edmond or SW 189th. Okc needs to get on the ball in that respect. Think long term.

The only thing is, right now, nobody will be building speculative highrises ANYWHERE/any city untill the economy improves.

What I'm asking is, where's the new jobs? Are we just going to empty the houses in the suburbs in order to fill downtown condos?

Devon and Sandridge have a lot of employees who can swing the cost of a $300/sq. ft. home. Looking forward, with parks improvements and a new downtown elementary school, moving downtown, even for families is going to make a lot of sense.

Agree. I don't think we're talking about emptying the suburbs at all. There are probably two demographics that are most likely to consider urban living: young professionals and empty nesters. Conversely, those are the two groups least likely to be interested in suburban living, IMO. Unfortunately, until our economy improves, people are less likely to be moving anywhere, so I don't think we're going to see a big shift of people into downtown OKC in the next few months. But, as we have more entertainment options, restaurant and shopping options, and as the economy improves. I expect our downtown will follow what has happened in other cities. Core to Shore is another key that will definitely create more interest in downtown living, I believe.

NBA players are probably not nearly as likely to live downtown as other people in the organization. We may get a few, but I think they're more into palatial living and living near the practice facility.


I agree with your analysis of the market with regard to those who would be interested in downtown living, but I think there are fantastic opportunities right now for an upswing in downtowners. As the price of fuel begins to increase steadily as we move to the summer, as additional construction projects on I-35 begin/continue, and with mortgage rates being near record lows, I think you have the right mix of incentives for suburbanites who work downtown to begin looking at relocating closer to their employers.

I have heard this will be on the NE corner of 5th and Dewey.

Correct, not too far from your place. As some may have noticed, Rick has already started redoing the facade of the building he owns next door and has done landscaping on the opposite side of 5th to help cover/beautify the parking lot he owns across the street that will act as the residential tower's parking lot.

The only thing is, right now, nobody will be building speculative highrises ANYWHERE/any city untill the economy improves.
All the ones here in Austin were built on spec, including one high rise apartment building, granted most of them were started at least a year ago and those are the only ones still going up. Most of the other condo projects (some low, some high rise) that were proposed and had not started construction have been stalled and a few canceled. So it will be awhile before the markets get back to the point of financing a spec project of that size.

We're mostly in the small fry world right now with apartment style complexes for the "upwardly mobile" crew. I have a feeling that we're reaching the end of the support for the upscale land of development. Just look at the projects that were cancelled in the last year because the economy caused a drop in demand.

If we could get some middle class development, I think you'd see another surge in interest. However, until the area has the honest infrastructure of facilities people want, I just don't see the mass migration....especially not for a 30 story tower....however much I would love to see it.

Right now, we've got 1 gas station and no grocery stores. Youve got to go way over to Classen to really start hitting the stuff. I'm still going to disagree about the elementary school too. It's not a "build it and they will come" thing. We will first have to see the population before the district will support a school. Even IF we get it with MAPS III or the TIF, that doesn't mean OCPS will populate it...or even take ownership of the deed. There's nothing that requires them to take control just because someone builds it. They're going to need solid projections of growth or steady enrollment to do it. Plus, they'll have to have a reason to not allow these students to spread out to the surrounding schools, boosting their enrollment. I'd actually find that to be the more likely case rather than populating a new building.

Bomber -- from what I understand, the school is being built with TIF money. It'll be very close to Devon, so there should be no problem getting kids. If OCPS refuses to occupy the building, I'm quite certain that a charter school could be successful at that location (and that might be the preferred route because Devon could probably for all intents and purposes control a charter school).

bombermwc, not sure why it matters about gas stations, but downtown has more than one. there is the shell on 5th and walker, the one in Bricktown across from Bass Pro, another shell on 11th or so and Broadway, and then the Valero on Classen and Sheridan. Gas stations aren't what's pivotal toward downtown residential success. It's moderate priced housing. The main reason we're not seeing any is lack of financing at banks right now, it doesn't necessarily indicate lack of demand.

bombermwc, not sure why it matters about gas stations, but downtown has more than one. there is the shell on 5th and walker, the one in Bricktown across from Bass Pro, another shell on 11th or so and Broadway, and then the Valero on Classen and Sheridan. Gas stations aren't what's pivotal toward downtown residential success. It's moderate priced housing. The main reason we're not seeing any is lack of financing at banks right now, it doesn't necessarily indicate lack of demand.

The problem from the bank's perspective is that they're going to loan money on a market which has ONLY new houses and will only have new houses for the foreseeable future. Used homes, for that reason will probably have less value than new ones meaning that in the event of foreclosure, the banks will be left holding the bag on these deals even if they can unload the property at a good price.

The developers, thus far have been able to name their prices, but in a few years, used home sales will start to dictate what buyers are willing to pay for these things. Until that happens, I don't really see the downtown market going anywhere fast.

With regard to the school, as far as Wilson elementary in HH/Mesta area is concerned, it has issues with overcrowding and is currently building an additional four classrooms. So, I think demand is probably there.

What I'm asking is, where's the new jobs?

At Devon, Chesapeake, and Sandridge, among others.



Are we just going to empty the houses in the suburbs in order to fill downtown condos?

I'd rather that than people leaving older OKC homes for cookie cutter, cheaply built homes in Moore and Edmond.

We don't talk about it much, but OKC is competing with the suburban cities for residents, sales tax revenue, and new development in general.

At Devon, Chesapeake, and Sandridge, among others.

They may add lots of jobs, but I know many of the starting jobs they offer dont pay enough for someone to reasonably spend 200/ft on a condo.

We dont just need more jobs, we also need more high-paying jobs.

to me, it doesn't make sense to build another school. Wilson Elementary may be overcrowded, but there are some other elementary schools near downtown--they may not have Wilson's reputation. There's an elementary school near the OU Health Sciences Center--I think it's called Dunbar. There's also Westwood Elementary by the stockyards. I hear Westwood is improving...The principal has a blog (http://www.drjansblog.typepad.com/dr_jans_blog/)that I came across a couple of months ago.

At Devon, Chesapeake, and Sandridge, among others.




I'd rather that than people leaving older OKC homes for cookie cutter, cheaply built homes in Moore and Edmond.

We don't talk about it much, but OKC is competing with the suburban cities for residents, sales tax revenue, and new development in general.

Agreed...urban sprawl is one of the biggest drains on public tax coffers. It makes sense to have centralized services. Economies of scale are more efficient with respect to city services in an increased urban density environment.

Agreed okyeah. OCPS is known too well for creating many small schools instead of larger ones. If you don't have at least 100 kids in each grade, then your elementary school is too small. It's not cost effective to have the large number of smaller facilities. That extra costs in maintenenace, staff, and utilities that they don't need to pay. That's partially why Maps for Kids tried to reorganize the district....stablilize the populations across the buildings.

I know there are a lot of people that think just beacuse a new school can be built in C2S, that it will by some miracle make people want to attend it and change the dynamics of the area. You only need about a little over a square mile of suburbs to support an elementary for an extended amount of time. If we're densely populated then it's all the better. However, remember it's still going to be OCPS. I guarantee that the people that can afford the housing costs are the same people that will be sending their kids to private school. Do you honestly see someone going to Capital Hill High School from that area? There are plenty private schools in the area already for this very reason....think 23rd and Classen for example. Putnam Heights is up there but those folks don't attend Putnam Heights Elementary. They go to the private Catholic schools on Western.

They could go to Classen SAS.

They could go to Southeast Specialty School of Tech.

The problem is that all the nice areas in the city are surrounded by some of the worst/not so good areas. Of course people are going to go to private schools. Every nice neighborhood in okc is zoned where the kids have to attend some less desirable public schools. Its not a good situation.

The problem is that all the nice areas in the city are surrounded by some of the worst/not so good areas. Of course people are going to go to private schools. Every nice neighborhood in okc is zoned where the kids have to attend some less desirable public schools. Its not a good situation.

The same thing in Tulsa. The midtown neighborhoods are some of the nicest in the city but many of the schools are not that great. There are a few, especially the elem. schools, but the middle and high schools are not of the same quality you can find in the suburbs, for the most part. That is why private schools in both OKC and Tulsa are so popular and prevalent.

And that's also why Classen SAS and Southeast exist. They are magnet high schools that are in the districts top three API scores. They consistently meet above the targeted API score while the rest of the schools fail.

Classen SAS serves the entire north side, and Southeast covers the entire south side. Unlike regular high schools like Grant or Capitol Hill where they have specified districts. Southeast's district covers both Capitol Hill's and Grant's plus more. But, Southeast is a while away from the core of downtown anyways, which really only leaves Classen SAS as a viable option for public schooling.

So its Classen or private schooling? Egh. Oh well.

Don't forget Harding Charter Prep at 33rd and Shartel. That is where my children go.

correct me if im wrong, but Classen seems to heavily cater to the atrsy crowd. I dont see or hear of any of their sports teams.

sorry.. artsy crowd. Not atrsy

They focus on arts and sciences, but they do have a basketball team I know for sure.

:backtotop

Thank you metro - I was thinking the same thing!

This isn't ever happening is it? all just wishful thinking

It will happen, it's just a matter of when. Keep in mind this hasn't even been publically announced yet. This is "inside information". Rick Dowell is the one behind it, and he is known for not rushing things. He's an economist, not a whimsical developer so his timing might seem odd compared to most people. Remember we're in a recession too.

yeah yeah.... i doubt this will happen... hopefully you and your "inside information" are right

believe what you want, but at least 5 or so other posters on this thread have confirmed the inside information as well, so it's not just me this time (check my track record though on posts for the last 5 years, Steve Lackmeyer will vouch for me). You can even see the model in Dowell's office. If you understood Dowell, you would understand how he operates, and he goes under the radar. Work on his other building next door has already been underway, as has parking lot and landscaping improvements for this proposed towers parking. I don't think he'd drop several tens if not hundred thousands if he wasn't at least halfway serious.

man i really hope ur right but i think there would be a lot more talk about it even if it is under the radar, thats just me, anyways hope more comes out soon

$300 /sf is still too much for this town, IMO. That is, at least, for the "younger crowd" (talked of often on here) that are more willing to participate in this sort of experimental lifestyle in OKC (after all, we don't know that this current love affair with urban life will even survive the times). Why cant they make these things more around modern home construction costs? Isn't the whole point of the high rise to lessen the cost and stack people on top of each other? I am certainly no expert on this matter. Certainly no expert.

$300 /sf is still too much for this town, IMO. That is, at least, for the "younger crowd" (talked of often on here) that are more willing to participate in this sort of experimental lifestyle in OKC (after all, we don't know that this current love affair with urban life will even survive the times). Why cant they make these things more around modern home construction costs? Isn't the whole point of the high rise to lessen the cost and stack people on top of each other? I am certainly no expert on this matter. Certainly no expert.

To correct myself, I don't even know what the projected cost /sf would be on this project. I am just throwing that out there. Even $200/sf is too high.

With properties in Crown Heights, Edgemere, Heritage Hills now selling in the 150-175 range 200-300 sq foot for new property is not out of line. If you want cheap property then go to those outlying areas around the quote "good areas".

if u charge a lot to live in a highrise, it wont sell here, it just wont! look at the classen and founders tower.... if they were to make it somewhere around the price of park harvey it will sell out soon after an announcement........ personal opinion

look at the classen and founders tower

True, but those aren't really in urban settings. It's kind of hard for many to wrap their heads around here, because we are just so used to maximizing price per square foot, but someone seeking urban living will put a premium on location and convenience of services. A high rise residential building is simply part of the equation and only part of what makes up the selling price.

So, really, it could work here, easily, but only if a high rise residential building provides the living experience that type of customer desires and that has as much or more to do with what's outside and around the building than it does with the building itself. High rises help facilitate that environment more so than most of the projects we have online right now, just because they create more density, allowing for the sustainability of businesses immediately nearby that offer services which enhance the urban living experience.

In a nutshell, urban living has less to do with price per square foot than it does with what's accessible by foot.

With properties in Crown Heights, Edgemere, Heritage Hills now selling in the 150-175 range 200-300 sq foot for new property is not out of line. If you want cheap property then go to those outlying areas around the quote "good areas".

I live in a nice house in Crown heights. I am about to sell it. Trust me, in this market, I will be lucky to get $150 /sf.

Edit: to clarify, I dont need to sell it. It is simply too small.

As a "young professional" that makes an above average salary I wouldnt even look at condo asking 300/ft. I would not even consider it. At 300/ft, people would just rather build their dream homes than pay that for a condo. You guys are crazy if you think there is a large market out there of people willing to fork over that kind of money. Sorry folks, this isnt Austin, Dallas, or Denver.

As a "young professional" that makes an above average salary I wouldnt even look at condo asking 300/ft. I would not even consider it. At 300/ft, people would just rather build their dream homes than pay that for a condo. You guys are crazy if you think there is a large market out there of people willing to fork over that kind of money. Sorry folks, this isnt Austin, Dallas, or Denver.

I don't even think those cities charge that much. Well, maybe Dallas. The developers are getting unrealistic. Just like the Bricktown squatters that damn-near collapsed the district.

You guys are crazy if you think there is a large market out there of people willing to fork over that kind of money.

There isn't a large market and there aren't any large projects. Even if a skyscraper was built, the total inventory downtown would still be a miniscule percentage of OKC's housing inventory.

And, yes, no one is going to do that now, because the value isn't there. If the area can become a vibrant urban living center, it then wouldn't be out of the question. I think we have to build density with smaller projects organically. Then as the services move in and the quality of life rises, then the value becomes more than just a simple price/sq foot analysis.

The reality is that, for some, there is no such thing as a dream home if it's located in the sticks. For others, they wouldn't ever want to live in the city. It's not about convincing someone who wants to live in Moore to live in the city. There's no reason for that. The object is to created an alternative to suburban living in OKC and, yes, some will pay what looks like a premium when the only consideration is price per square foot.

So, yeah, they end up paying the same for a smaller place in the city, but location and lifestyle more than makes up for the compromise in size, not to mention the fact that it is exponentially less expensive to maintain.

I live in a nice house in Crown heights. I am about to sell it. Trust me, in this market, I will be lucky to get $150 /sf.

Edit: to clarify, I dont need to sell it. It is simply too small.


LOL, someones a lil insecure