Thank you, Worthy. This eternal Whole Foods debate makes me weary. It's sort of like a guy courting a girl who can't stand him. Sometimes, it seems a little pathetic. Whole Foods doesn't want OKC despite our demographics and lack of viable competitors. In my opinion, it's their loss. We should simply shop elsewhere. Perhaps we can use our own dollars to help a local company develop a Whole Foods alternative.No one is developing one. If a local company opened a store on the level of Whole Foods or Central Market, I would GLADLY support them. When a chain like Whole Foods is looking for expansion opportunities, already has locations in cities smaller (and with worse demographics) than us, and OKC would fit in with their distribution network, we are going to be pushing OKC to them. But Homeland can't just put "Marketplace" on their sign and be upscale; Neighborhood Market will always be a Wal-Mart at the core. We need a new concept in Oklahoma City-- Whole Foods, Central Market, whatever. I don't care which one. But Whole Foods seems to be the most likely so I am clamoring for them!

I too would be delighted to support a local store, rather than a franchise. Problem is, there isn't one. I think it would be a great idea to develop a local, independently-owned store with a Whole Foods concept. However, if it did well, the problem is it would probably make the area look more attractive to Whole Foods. And, if Whole Foods came in, people would flock to it, because of its name, I fear. I remember several coffee shops that went out of business when Starbucks came in. And, if I remember correctly, Bollinger's Books was a victim of Barnes and Noble. Why chains seem to have cachet, I do not understand. But, they seem to, and it would make me nervous to develop an independent grocery store for that very reason.

... Why chains seem to have cachet, I do not understand. But, they seem to, ...

Sheeple can be very baaaa about granting cachet.

It's puzzling that some cities can support large numbers of these upscale grocery stores, but we can't even support one.

We can. No one will give us a shot. And none of the local chains are willing to attempt it.

I agree that we can support a Whole Foods. Frankly, I think OKC could support more than one (some people apparently don't know what they're missing). There's really nothing like it at all in this area. As others have said, it doesn't have to be Whole Foods. It just has to be something like it...Central Market, Wegmans, Whole Foods, a local store...it really doesn't matter to me.

I agree that we can support a Whole Foods. Frankly, I think OKC could support more than one (some people apparently don't know what they're missing). There's really nothing like it at all in this area. As others have said, it doesn't have to be Whole Foods. It just has to be something like it...Central Market, Wegmans, Whole Foods, a local store...it really doesn't matter to me.

I don't know...I easily located this list online, and I'm sure that there are probably even more.

Oklahoma

• Nutrition Center - Health Food Store. (Ada)
• Veggies Health Advantage Ctr - Health Food Store and Vegetarian restaurant. (Ardmore)
• Billie's Health Food Ctr - Health Food Store. (Bartlesville)
• Bethany Alternative Health - Health Food Store. (Bethany)
• Herb Garden & Health Foods - Health Food Store. (Bethany)
• Omega Health Foods - Health Food Store. (Bethany)
• Martha's Health Foods & Herbs - Health Food Store. (Broken Arrow)
• Nana Ayaka Health Food - Health Food Store. (Broken Bow)
• Lynn's Natural Health Food Ctr - Health Food Store. (Chickasha)
• Nutrition Shop - Health Food Store. (Clinton)
• Whole Foods - Health Food Store. (Cushing)
• Health Food Store - Health Food Store. (Duncan)
• Family Health Food Store - Family Health Food Store. (Durant)
• Down To Earth Naturals - Health Food Store. (Edmond)
• Edmond Health Foods - Health Food Store. (Edmond)
• Back To Basics - Health Food Store. (Elk City)
• Pearson's Natural Food Ctr - Health Food Store. (Enid)
• Nature's Plenty of Grove - Health Food Store. (Grove)
• Country Store - Health Food Store. (Harrah)
• Whole Foods Market - Health Food Store. (Lawton)
• Healthy Living Distributors, LLC - Healthy Living LLC - organic and natural foods and produce. (Lindsay)
• Solis Health Foods & Herbs - Health Food Store. (McAlester)
• Oriental Food Market - Health Food Store. (Midwest City)
• Health Plus Nutrition - Health Food Store. (Moore)
• Noble Country Health - Health Food Store. (Morrison)
• Nature's Health Foods - Health Food Store. (Muskogee)
• Dodson's Nutrition Food Ctr - Health Food Store. (Norman)
• Earth Natural Foods & Garden - Health Food Store. (Norman)
• Native Roots Market - Food Picked Right!. (Norman)
• Nutrition Cupboard - Health Food Store. (Norman)
• Wrights Market - Health Food Store. (Norman)
• AKiN’s Natural Foods – Mayfair - Akin's Natural Foods - Your Vitamin Superstore!. (Oklahoma City)
• AKiN’s Natural Foods – OKC North - Akin's Natural Foods - Your Vitamin Superstore!. (Oklahoma City)
• Everything Low Carb - Health Food Store. (Oklahoma City)
• Healthway Natural Foods - Health Food Store. (Oklahoma City)
• Nutritional Food Ctr - Health Food Store. (Oklahoma City)
• Oklahoma Food Cooperative - We only offer products grown or made in Oklahoma. (Oklahoma City)
• Organic Gourmet - Health Food Store. (Oklahoma City)
• The Health Food Center - Natural Food Store. (Oklahoma City)
• Nutrition Shoppe - Health Food Store. (Okmulgee)
• Health World Natural Foods - Health Food Store. (Ponca City)
• Poteau Health Foods - Health Food Store. (Poteau)
• Harvest World Market - Health Food Store. (Sand Springs)
• Sapulpa Health Foods - Health Food Store. (Sapulpa)
• Vickie's Nutrition Store - Health Food Store. (Seminole)
• House of Health - Health Food Store. (Shawnee)
• Rogers Square Herbs & Health Food - Health Food Store. (Skiatook)
• Open Circle Natural Foods - Health Food Store. (Stillwater)
• Paradise Market - Health Food Store. (Stillwater)
• The Oasis Health Food Store - A true oasis of health building: Supplements, Herbs, Organic Food, and Love.. (Tahlequah)
• Akin's Natural Foods - Health Food Store. (Tulsa)
• AKiN’s Natural Foods – Fontana - Natural Foods Market - Your Vitamin Superstore!. (Tulsa)
• AKiN’s Natural Foods – Newport - Akin's Natural Foods - Your Vitamin Superstore!. (Tulsa)
• Anner's Wellness Works - organic market and coop. (Tulsa)
• Big Al's Health Foods - Health Food Store. (Tulsa)
• Herb Shop - Highest quality Herbs, Vitamines, Enzymes, Amino Acids and Minerals.. (Tulsa)
• Lee's Health Ctr - Health Food Store. (Tulsa)
• Naturalfarms - Good health starts with healthier foods. (Tulsa)
• Petty's Fine Foods - Health Food Store. (Tulsa)
• Sedona Natural Foods - Health Food Store. (Tulsa)
• Whole Foods Market - Health Food Store. (Tulsa)
• Country Gardens Health Foods - Health Food Store. (Yale)

Food Co-ops, Health Food stores, Natural Food Stores, health food, natural food (http://www.greenpeople.org/healthfood.htm)

-Chris-

Not to be difficult, but this is the misconception about why people like me want Whole Foods, or something like it. In my case, it isn't for the health products or natural foods. Rather, it is to shop in a pleasant environment that features a fantastic selection of fresh produce, seafood, meats, chef prepared meals, baked goods, deli, cheeses, flowers, and so on. There may be individual stores in Oklahoma that sell some of these things, but Whole Foods or Central Market offer far more, and it's all under one roof (which is important for those who don't have the time or the inclination to find all of these individual stores and somehow do all of their shopping there). Again, what we have now is completely inadequate for a city of this size.

I don't know...I easily located this list online, and I'm sure that there are probably even more.

Oklahoma

• Nutrition Center - Health Food Store. (Ada)
• Veggies Health Advantage Ctr - Health Food Store and Vegetarian restaurant. (Ardmore)
• Billie's Health Food Ctr - Health Food Store. (Bartlesville)
• Bethany Alternative Health - Health Food Store. (Bethany)
• Herb Garden & Health Foods - Health Food Store. (Bethany)
• Omega Health Foods - Health Food Store. (Bethany)
• Martha's Health Foods & Herbs - Health Food Store. (Broken Arrow)
• Nana Ayaka Health Food - Health Food Store. (Broken Bow)
• Lynn's Natural Health Food Ctr - Health Food Store. (Chickasha)
• Nutrition Shop - Health Food Store. (Clinton)
• Whole Foods - Health Food Store. (Cushing)
• Health Food Store - Health Food Store. (Duncan)
• Family Health Food Store - Family Health Food Store. (Durant)
• Down To Earth Naturals - Health Food Store. (Edmond)
• Edmond Health Foods - Health Food Store. (Edmond)
• Back To Basics - Health Food Store. (Elk City)
• Pearson's Natural Food Ctr - Health Food Store. (Enid)
• Nature's Plenty of Grove - Health Food Store. (Grove)
• Country Store - Health Food Store. (Harrah)
• Whole Foods Market - Health Food Store. (Lawton)
• Healthy Living Distributors, LLC - Healthy Living LLC - organic and natural foods and produce. (Lindsay)
• Solis Health Foods & Herbs - Health Food Store. (McAlester)
• Oriental Food Market - Health Food Store. (Midwest City)
• Health Plus Nutrition - Health Food Store. (Moore)
• Noble Country Health - Health Food Store. (Morrison)
• Nature's Health Foods - Health Food Store. (Muskogee)
• Dodson's Nutrition Food Ctr - Health Food Store. (Norman)
• Earth Natural Foods & Garden - Health Food Store. (Norman)
• Native Roots Market - Food Picked Right!. (Norman)
• Nutrition Cupboard - Health Food Store. (Norman)
• Wrights Market - Health Food Store. (Norman)
• AKiN’s Natural Foods – Mayfair - Akin's Natural Foods - Your Vitamin Superstore!. (Oklahoma City)
• AKiN’s Natural Foods – OKC North - Akin's Natural Foods - Your Vitamin Superstore!. (Oklahoma City)
• Everything Low Carb - Health Food Store. (Oklahoma City)
• Healthway Natural Foods - Health Food Store. (Oklahoma City)
• Nutritional Food Ctr - Health Food Store. (Oklahoma City)
• Oklahoma Food Cooperative - We only offer products grown or made in Oklahoma. (Oklahoma City)
• Organic Gourmet - Health Food Store. (Oklahoma City)
• The Health Food Center - Natural Food Store. (Oklahoma City)
• Nutrition Shoppe - Health Food Store. (Okmulgee)
• Health World Natural Foods - Health Food Store. (Ponca City)
• Poteau Health Foods - Health Food Store. (Poteau)
• Harvest World Market - Health Food Store. (Sand Springs)
• Sapulpa Health Foods - Health Food Store. (Sapulpa)
• Vickie's Nutrition Store - Health Food Store. (Seminole)
• House of Health - Health Food Store. (Shawnee)
• Rogers Square Herbs & Health Food - Health Food Store. (Skiatook)
• Open Circle Natural Foods - Health Food Store. (Stillwater)
• Paradise Market - Health Food Store. (Stillwater)
• The Oasis Health Food Store - A true oasis of health building: Supplements, Herbs, Organic Food, and Love.. (Tahlequah)
• Akin's Natural Foods - Health Food Store. (Tulsa)
• AKiN’s Natural Foods – Fontana - Natural Foods Market - Your Vitamin Superstore!. (Tulsa)
• AKiN’s Natural Foods – Newport - Akin's Natural Foods - Your Vitamin Superstore!. (Tulsa)
• Anner's Wellness Works - organic market and coop. (Tulsa)
• Big Al's Health Foods - Health Food Store. (Tulsa)
• Herb Shop - Highest quality Herbs, Vitamines, Enzymes, Amino Acids and Minerals.. (Tulsa)
• Lee's Health Ctr - Health Food Store. (Tulsa)
• Naturalfarms - Good health starts with healthier foods. (Tulsa)
• Petty's Fine Foods - Health Food Store. (Tulsa)
• Sedona Natural Foods - Health Food Store. (Tulsa)
• Whole Foods Market - Health Food Store. (Tulsa)
• Country Gardens Health Foods - Health Food Store. (Yale)

Food Co-ops, Health Food stores, Natural Food Stores, health food, natural food (http://www.greenpeople.org/healthfood.htm)

-Chris-


Most places that label themselves as a "Health Food Store" are tiny little shacks full of questionable supplements. I'm not saying ALL of them, because clearly I haven't visited every single place on this list. But getting a Whole Foods is about having a good grocery store, not a "health food store". There is just no place in Oklahoma City that has the variety of good FOOD that Whole Foods has.

Just asking how many of the posters have written/contacted WF in (say) the past 3 mos about coming here?

Most places that label themselves as a "Health Food Store" are tiny little shacks full of questionable supplements. I'm not saying ALL of them, because clearly I haven't visited every single place on this list. But getting a Whole Foods is about having a good grocery store, not a "health food store". There is just no place in Oklahoma City that has the variety of good FOOD that Whole Foods has.

But my point is if you (not YOU you, but folks in general you lol) don't go and visit these stores and see what they have, you will never know. We have sold out our local business for the sake of convenience...what a shame.

-Chris-

As I recall Pratt's store in Edmond was a pretty good effort at offering something very similar to Whole Foods, et al. I think it was not very well supported.

There seems to be a BIG misconception of what a Central Market or Whole Foods is. It is a pleasant shopping experience in a warm environment, not a stale grocery store. It is thoughtfully laid out, not just rows of aisles. It offers freshly made, fully prepared meals. It offers a plethora of upscale items not found in other stores in bulk. It offers a knowledgeable staff that knows about preparation, parings, etc. It offers high quality, fresh meats, seafood, fruit, vegetables, cheese, olives, etc.

None of the stores on the long list above offers these things at the same location. I resent that someone says I have "sold out" our local stores for the sake of convenience. I support local stores where I can, but I hold ALL STORES to the same standard. If the local stores do not offer the products I need, I certainly won't shop there. Same story with a chain. I have neither the time nor inclination to drive to 17 stores to do my grocery shopping.

None of the stores on the long list above offers these things at the same location. I resent that someone says I have "sold out" our local stores for the sake of convenience. I support local stores where I can, but I hold ALL STORES to the same standard. If the local stores do not offer the products I need, I certainly won't shop there. Same story with a chain. I have neither the time nor inclination to drive to 17 stores to do my grocery shopping.

Thank you. You just validated my point.

-Chris-

Flinty, I remember Pratts. They were in a bad location (what was then the north fringe of Edmond, not centralized to population, and they didn't do a good job communicating how they were different from WalCrapMart.

Flinty, I remember Pratts. They were in a bad location (what was then the north fringe of Edmond, not centralized to population, and they didn't do a good job communicating how they were different from WalCrapMart.
Plus some of it is name association, to most people a Pratt's was a generic grocery store long established in the market so a different concept needed to be marketed differently. Much like HEB does with Central Market, for the most part it is a completely different concept than a regular HEB store although some elements are creeping into the newer HEB stores but it still has a distinct identity.

I still think something of a Chelsea Market (http://www.chelseamarket.com/) concept with many different local stores co-located in the same area would be a solution to both the availability and convenience issues.

Point is that Pratt's, a local grocer, attempted a concept about as similar to Whole Foods as I've seen and it did not receive enough support to make it. Name recognition, reputation, location and so on really have nothing to do with it.

okc pulse - grocery stores absolutely do seek incentives to locate a new store, especially in a new market. albertsons sought and recieved incentives, including direct payments for construction costs and sales tax rebates, on a number of metro-area locations. word is that crest has done the same. even wal-mart often seeks incentives.

Flinty, I remember Pratts. They were in a bad location (what was then the north fringe of Edmond, not centralized to population, and they didn't do a good job communicating how they were different from WalCrapMart.

You and I are on the same page concerning Wal-Crap. Except I don't even address the existence of the word "mart". Just Wal-Crap. They butchered the Oklahoma City grocery market.

You and I are on the same page concerning Wal-Crap. Except I don't even address the existence of the word "mart". Just Wal-Crap. They butchered the Oklahoma City grocery market.

That's called competition.

Indeed, it is competition, but ask any Oklahoma City grocery patron.

Q: "Do you shop at Wal-**** Supercenter for the prices?"
A: "Yes"

Q: "Do you think Wal-**** offers quality food and quality presentation."
A: "I just shop there for the prices. It's just Wal-****."

Many people do shop there because it saves them $$$$, but many think Wal-**** is nothing compared to a quality supermarket.

So, yeah, they butchered the OKC market by offering good prices in a grease garage. F*** 'em.

Somehow I don't think Wal Mart was the sole reason Safeway closed. I don't think Wal Mart was the sole reason Albertson's closed. Wal Mart wasn't the sole reason Kamp's closed. These companies cannot compete against Wal Mart due to union labor and poor management. Its no different than what is happening in most any other city. Besides, Target has groceries too. Do you feel the same way about Target? Why don't you criticise them? Or is it just because to demonize Wal Mart is politically correct?

That's called competition.

I agree and I do shop for food sometimes at Walmart. It's normally only for staple things like canned food or frozen food. It can be much less expensive than for the exact same items found at other stores and I do compare prices. I don't think you can expect people who are on very limited budgets to pay higher prices at locally owned stores just to say they are supporting local businesses. Not everyone has that luxury. I rarely look for things like meat or vegetables there even if it is less.

Indeed, it is competition, but ask any Oklahoma City grocery patron.

Q: "Do you shop at Wal-**** Supercenter for the prices?"
A: "Yes"

Q: "Do you think Wal-**** offers quality food and quality presentation."
A: "I just shop there for the prices. It's just Wal-****."

Many people do shop there because it saves them $$$$, but many think Wal-**** is nothing compared to a quality supermarket.

So, yeah, they butchered the OKC market by offering good prices in a grease garage. F*** 'em.


All local stores Walmart, Homeland, Crest, Target, Best Buy, carry essentially the same products, they just come in different packages and their trucks are a different color. To say people only shop Walmart is for low prices is not totally correct.

Indeed, it is competition, but ask any Oklahoma City grocery patron.

Q: "Do you shop at Wal-**** Supercenter for the prices?"
A: "Yes"

Q: "Do you think Wal-**** offers quality food and quality presentation."
A: "I just shop there for the prices. It's just Wal-****."

Many people do shop there because it saves them $$$$, but many think Wal-**** is nothing compared to a quality supermarket.

So, yeah, they butchered the OKC market by offering good prices in a grease garage. F*** 'em.

^^^The best post of this ENTIRE thread, right here.^^^

Nooooooooooooo. We can, it's just that their hoity-toity asses won't put a store here for us to support.

No I am starting to seriously believe that the Oklahoma grocery lobby has something to do with it, similar to how the liquor lobby enables the laws to be so anti-consumer choice around here. I truly suspect protectionism. Besides Walmart and Target, there is only one distributor for grocery in the entire state (barring the WF distributor for the one in Tulsa, which is only there by default). The distribution lobby can't want this kind of competition, they have to be fighting it. I don't think Walmart shoppers will be switching over to upscale grocery any time soon. But for shoppers of some of the nicer Homelands...this could be a real problem, especially because local chains already don't do well as a result of Walmart.

In any case, I used to take it personally, but one really has to wonder all that is involved here...

No I am starting to seriously believe that the Oklahoma grocery lobby has something to do with it, similar to how the liquor lobby enables the laws to be so anti-consumer choice around here. I truly suspect protectionism. Besides Walmart and Target, there is only one distributor for grocery in the entire state (barring the WF distributor for the one in Tulsa, which is only there by default). The distribution lobby can't want this kind of competition, they have to be fighting it. I don't think Walmart shoppers will be switching over to upscale grocery any time soon. But for shoppers of some of the nicer Homelands...this could be a real problem, especially because local chains already don't do well as a result of Walmart.

In any case, I used to take it personally, but one really has to wonder all that is involved here... I agree. It does make me wonder that with the antiquated liquor laws and with the poor choices of grocery chains in the OKC area that residents would want to step up to the plate. It appears that Oklahoma operates more and more from a socialistic form of government instead of a democracy or the "will of the people". This will always hinder the true potential that OKC and the State for that matter can have. They cannot even put a fricking Q-Trip in OKC because there is suppose to be a "gentlemen's agreement" between the franchise owners of the 7-11's in OKC and the owners of Q-Trip in Tulsa. What ever happened to the free enterprise system in Oklahoma? Competition is healthy in the marketplace but because of the "special interests " that operate in Oklahoma and the enept goons that make the laws in Oklahoma makes it increasingly difficult to do business in the State.

As has been stated many, many times before, Whole Foods et al operate in several other places with similar liquor laws.

Quote:
Originally Posted by okcpulse
Indeed, it is competition, but ask any Oklahoma City grocery patron.

Q: "Do you shop at Wal-**** Supercenter for the prices?"
A: "Yes"

Q: "Do you think Wal-**** offers quality food and quality presentation."
A: "I just shop there for the prices. It's just Wal-****."

Many people do shop there because it saves them $$$$, but many think Wal-**** is nothing compared to a quality supermarket.

So, yeah, they butchered the OKC market by offering good prices in a grease garage. F*** 'em.

^^^The best post of this ENTIRE thread, right here.^^^


Both are silly, mindless statements. Wal Mart succeeds because it is able to secure better prices for its products than other grocers, and can sell for less. The other grocers struggle because they exist in an industry with razor-thin margins. Albertson's is struggling nationally. Safeway is struggling nationally. Other grocers put in large stores that carry higher-margin, non-grocery items that help them improve their profitability. There is nothing going on in OK that isn't going on elsewhere. The difference is we don't have a Kroger or Publix to continue the competition.

As has been stated many, many times before, Whole Foods et al operate in several other places with similar liquor laws.

Of course its not the liquor laws themselves, which yes has been established many times before. That is not the point. Its many things. And I have a hypothesis that one of them is related to unseen pressure from the grocery distribution lobby (which is akin to the way the liquor lobby serves to prevent many beer/wine/liquor labels from reaching Oklahoma shelves due to potential competition for the big three). Not that we know what that would do specifically, but lobby pressure from distributors is probably one of many variables blocking upscale grocery from coming to this state.

Just saying, and I think progressiveboy has a good point - I think something fishy is going on in this state which continues to hinder the will of the consumer.

Just saying, and I think progressiveboy has a good point - I think something fishy is going on in this state which continues to hinder the will of the consumer.

I don't feel there is much "fishy" going on. What I see is a state with a relatively low population, a state known for it's "value" shopping habits, and a state who'se overall income level is lower than the national average. OKC also has a dispursed population of more affluent people (meaning there isn't a large, concentrated area of people with disposable income). This makes it far harder to figure out where to locate a single store.

For a business such as a grocery store to come into an area, it is far more efficient for them to come in with several stores and a distribution center. Especially in this economy, I don't see many chain grocers willing to pony up the money to do this.

For a business such as a grocery store to come into an area, it is far more efficient for them to come in with several stores and a distribution center. Especially in this economy, I don't see many chain grocers willing to pony up the money to do this.

Mayhaps you have a point about them needing more than 2 stores in our market. As I said, its a result of many variables, most of which we'll never agree upon because its not up to us.

I've just become distrustful of the good intentions of lobbying powers, seeing as what has happened with liquor distribution. I also know someone who works for the OK grocery distribution and she knows that they are very against any growth of outside distribution competition beyond what's already here. As to how powerful they are and what sorts of laws exist that may hinder development, I just don't know (Midtowner? you around?). I'm just unwilling to assume that its not one of the variables preventing upscale grocery chains from establishing here. You may think I'm paranoid, but oh well.

Well, I'm off to Crest for my weekly grocery shopping! And probably 3 other places because they don't consistently carry what I need :doh:

You and I are on the same page concerning Wal-Crap. Except I don't even address the existence of the word "mart". Just Wal-Crap. They butchered the Oklahoma City grocery market.

I agree 100%! I call them the "Merchant of Shame" lol!

Yeah the Crest in Moore is horrible. Even though Homeland on 104th is closer to us their selection makes Crest look like..Wal-Mart.

I'll admit that sometimes I do have to shop at Wal-Mart, which is closer than Moore. As much as I hate to say it, they might not even have the best prices, but they have the best composite score of price, selection, and convenience.

Wal-Mart is a horrible evil huge corporation but you have to admit, they got that way for a reason: they have figured out how to do retail better than anyone else. It would be great if a competitor of theirs could figure out how to do it just as effectively. So far the best Target can come up with is "shop here, we're not Wal-Mart."

I remember Buchanans' and Synders and for a time Pratts did online grocery shopping, with delivery..that was a godsend.
But on every order from either three of them, I always had great experience.

Somehow I don't think Wal Mart was the sole reason Safeway closed. I don't think Wal Mart was the sole reason Albertson's closed. Wal Mart wasn't the sole reason Kamp's closed. These companies cannot compete against Wal Mart due to union labor and poor management. Its no different than what is happening in most any other city. Besides, Target has groceries too. Do you feel the same way about Target? Why don't you criticise them? Or is it just because to demonize Wal Mart is politically correct?

Wal-Mart is the number one reason we have no grocery competition in this market. OKC is a Wal-Mart test market. There are 21 Supercenters in the metro.

You must really like Wal-Mart the way you defend them.

Wal-Mart is the number one reason we have no grocery competition in this market. .

Do you have some kind of support for this, or is this just an effort to make unfounded comments to jump on the Wal-Mart bashing bandwagon?

Somehow I don't think Wal Mart was the sole reason Safeway closed. I don't think Wal Mart was the sole reason Albertson's closed.
Safeway was done in by management and Michael Milken's junk bonds in the early 80's, that is why they closed up in many states including Oklahoma long before Wal-Mart started the Neighborhood Market concept and was just testing the Hypercenter concept in Garland. Only 15 or so years ago they recovered and started growing again, but they are still on the average higher than HEB here in Texas (operating under the Randall's/Tom Thumb names) and King Soupers (Kroger) in Denver.

Albertson's was done in by being repeatedly "capitalized" to the point they couldn't afford the debt they had created. Which isn't unlike a lot of businesses that have had to retrench or close up completely in recent years.

Wal-Mart is the number one reason we have no grocery competition in this market. OKC is a Wal-Mart test market. There are 21 Supercenters in the metro.

You must really like Wal-Mart the way you defend them.

I will also ask for some back up about your assertion against Wal Mart.

As for my liking of them, yeah, I shop there for certain items I know are cheaper. My main motivation, however, is to stop mindless and pointless claims against a company simply because it is fashionable.

But my point is if you (not YOU you, but folks in general you lol) don't go and visit these stores and see what they have, you will never know. We have sold out our local business for the sake of convenience...what a shame.

-Chris-

Whole foods is trendy. The ones listed aren't. Some people want to buy an experience and they have the discretionary income to do it. They want the best and they want it easy. People who are counting their pennies or who like to support local companies are looked down upon as stodgy.

Both are silly, mindless statements. Wal Mart succeeds because it is able to secure better prices for its products than other grocers, and can sell for less. The other grocers struggle because they exist in an industry with razor-thin margins. Albertson's is struggling nationally. Safeway is struggling nationally. Other grocers put in large stores that carry higher-margin, non-grocery items that help them improve their profitability. There is nothing going on in OK that isn't going on elsewhere. The difference is we don't have a Kroger or Publix to continue the competition.

Hey, I never said Wal-Mart's success isn't deserved. They have low prices. It saves people money. But they still cannibalized the Oklahoma City market.

That's called competition.

I am not sure how many people on this thread are in the grocery store business but I have long standing exposure to it - it is an extremely competitive business with a low profit margin.

And your average person in a rural or semi rural area are ecstatic when Wal Mart comes to the area. The city folk who want to run Wal Mart into the dust because it isn't good enough for them aren't thinking about how their country cousins are so grateful for the opportunity to have choices in what they can buy. City folk who forget that not everyone lives their lifestyle are just as bad as an old farmer who has no clue what works in the city.

And the fact is, Wal Mart isn't getting a government subsidy. If they stay in business, it is because people want to buy from them. The ones who hate them should vote with their pocketbook.

Indeed, it is competition, but ask any Oklahoma City grocery patron.

Q: "Do you shop at Wal-**** Supercenter for the prices?"
A: "Yes"

Q: "Do you think Wal-**** offers quality food and quality presentation."
A: "I just shop there for the prices. It's just Wal-****."

Many people do shop there because it saves them $$$$, but many think Wal-**** is nothing compared to a quality supermarket.

So, yeah, they butchered the OKC market by offering good prices in a grease garage. F*** 'em.

Are you for real???? Did you ever take a course in basic ecomonics? Or have responsibility to feed any living creature beyond a gold fish?

Are you for real???? Did you ever take a course in basic ecomonics? Or have responsibility to feed any living creature beyond a gold fish?

Excuse me?

Excuse me?

Oh sorry - I think I misunderstood your quoted post.

I am not sure how many people on this thread are in the grocery store business but I have long standing exposure to it - it is an extremely competitive business with a low profit margin.
I was amazed at how low the margins were on the food side of the business when I worked at Skagg's-Albertsons/Alpha Beta in 80-82, the drug side of the store had all the high margin items.

Hey, I never said Wal-Mart's success isn't deserved. They have low prices. It saves people money. But they still cannibalized the Oklahoma City market.

You really haven't read mine or the other posts in this thread. Wal Mart is a competitor in the grocery business. So is Homeland. So is Crest. So is Buy-4-Less, and so is Target, etc. Safeway and Albertsons have left most other markets in the region. Its not Wal Mart that is the villain. Look at the unions that have killed those 2 chains because they can't overcome union wage requirements while trying to compete in an industry where profit margins are already razor thin. You're villainizing Wal Mart for simply doing business.

You're villainizing Wal Mart for simply doing business.

No. I am villainizing Wal-Mart for doing business cheaply. I'll admit Neighborhood Markets are better, but not by much. Selection is poor in both stores.

Younger people like myself go to Wal-Mart because we have to, not because we want to. We go to HEB Central Market in The Woodlands because the place is lively, service is phenomenal and the food quality is much better. Selection is better. And the presentation is exquisite.

Can Wal-Mart match that? No. Could they? Sure, but you can bet that last dollar they will not.

But I'll tell you what. I'll go to Wal-Mart's new prototype store in Edmond on I-35. If I'm impressed, I just might recant. And I emphasize might.

What this is really about is exceeding Oklahoma City's expectations by offering quality supermarkets found in other cities. It's about competition against other cities in offering a top notch quality of life in every aspect of city living, and that even includes grocery stores. In Oklahoma City's improving quality of life, grocery store owners can no longer afford to half-ass their operations like they used to. They could get away with it in 1992, but not now.

And it angers me that Wal-Mart grabbed the keys to our kingdom and blew it. Same with Homeland. Same with most Buy For Less stores.

SuperTarget and Crest come the closest to quality over quantity.

No. I am villainizing Wal-Mart for doing business cheaply. I'll admit Neighborhood Markets are better, but not by much. Selection is poor in both stores.

And doing business cheaply is a crime? That's why Wal Mart is the largest business in the US (excepting occasionally for Exxon).


Younger people like myself go to Wal-Mart because we have to, not because we want to. We go to HEB Central Market in The Woodlands because the place is lively, service is phenomenal and the food quality is much better. Selection is better. And the presentation is exquisite.

Dude, go to any Wal Mart and it is packed to the gills with young people. Sounds like you're pandering to an elitist crowd down there in the golf cart heaven of The Woodlands. Unfortunlately, we don't have an HEB here. Thats the point you may be missing - some have and some aren't as fortunate.

I am the first to say I wish we had HEB or Tom Thumb or King Soopers or a couple of nice Whole Foods, but for people to say Wal Mart is the reason are ignorant (and please take that by it's dictionary definition, I am not trying to be insulting).

And doing business cheaply is a crime? That's why Wal Mart is the largest business in the US (excepting occasionally for Exxon).

No, it's not a crime. It just leaves the stores undesirable.

Dude, go to any Wal Mart and it is packed to the gills with young people.


Sounds like you're pandering to an elitist crowd down there in the golf cart heaven of The Woodlands.

I pander to no Texan. Especially not The Woodlands.


Unfortunlately, we don't have an HEB here. Thats the point you may be missing - some have and some aren't as fortunate.

I am the first to say I wish we had HEB or Tom Thumb or King Soopers or a couple of nice Whole Foods, but for people to say Wal Mart is the reason are ignorant (and please take that by it's dictionary definition, I am not trying to be insulting).

I never said Wal-Mart was the reason. I merely criticized Wal-Marts offerings for groceries. I worked there for three years. I know how they think. I know how they operate. More bang for the buck. And that's fine, but they can improve their quality. I will say that Wal-Marts in OKC are better operated than those here in Texas. It's much worse. But I want quality foods, like Kamp's Meat Market, Avalon Seafood and La Baguette's offers, just all under one roof.

HEB is a Texas-only operation. Crest is stepping up with a Fresh Market store under construction, but it's near Moore. When I relocate to OKC, I'll be in Edmond. Thankfully, there is a nice Crest up there to satisfy me.

My brother lives in the Hollywood area of LA and less than a mile from a Whole Foods store. He's told me that he never shops there because it's much too expensive and doesn't have anything he needs that he can't get elsewhere at a lower price. That may not apply to OKC but I've always been fed very well when I visit him.

My brother lives in the Hollywood area of LA and less than a mile from a Whole Foods store. He's told me that he never shops there because it's much too expensive and doesn't have anything he needs that he can't get elsewhere at a lower price. That may not apply to OKC but I've always been fed very well when I visit him.

Whole Foods may not be the answer, but anything is an improvement over what we have today. We do not have adequate grocery options for a city of this size.

Whole Foods may not be the answer, but anything is an improvement over what we have today. We do not have adequate grocery options for a city of this size.

I agree and believe we could have better options. But if you've lived here all of your life like me you would have to say that the options are much better now than they have ever been.

HEB is a Texas-only operation.
HEB also operates in Mexico but I think that is some kind of joint venture type of arrangement based off my vague recollections of some reports a few years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mugofbeer
And doing business cheaply is a crime? That's why Wal Mart is the largest business in the US (excepting occasionally for Exxon).

No, it's not a crime. It just leaves the stores undesirable.

You're being critical of Wal Mart because they don't fill YOUR niche. You'd be no different if you were single without children criticizing Chuckie Cheese because they don't serve steak. Wal Mart serves a majority of the population in one way or another. They don't serve everyone's needs.


I never said Wal-Mart was the reason. I merely criticized Wal-Marts offerings for groceries. I worked there for three years. I know how they think. I know how they operate. More bang for the buck. And that's fine, but they can improve their quality. I will say that Wal-Marts in OKC are better operated than those here in Texas. It's much worse. But I want quality foods, like Kamp's Meat Market, Avalon Seafood and La Baguette's offers, just all under one roof.

Sure, Wal Mart could improve their quality, but then they'd be leaving their niche. If you want the quality of Kamps, Avalon or La Baquette, Wal Mart isn't the place to look. Again, you seem critical of Wal Mart because they don't fit your quality/lifestyle niche. That's not what Wal Mart does.

You're being critical of Wal Mart because they don't fill YOUR niche. You'd be no different if you were single without children criticizing Chuckie Cheese because they don't serve steak. Wal Mart serves a majority of the population in one way or another. They don't serve everyone's needs.



Sure, Wal Mart could improve their quality, but then they'd be leaving their niche. If you want the quality of Kamps, Avalon or La Baquette, Wal Mart isn't the place to look. Again, you seem critical of Wal Mart because they don't fit your quality/lifestyle niche. That's not what Wal Mart does.

Most understand and accept things they don't like or agree with, other's just like to bitch!!!

Most understand and accept things they don't like or agree with, other's just like to bitch!!!

No company is perfect and I think Wal Mart has made some big public relations mistakes in the past. However, its simply become stylish to blame the world;s woes on Wal Mart. Wal Mart gives people choices. Its huge, its impersonal, its inconvenient - especially for the elderly who most need it, but it serves its purpose. Its far from the only player in town. Some people just don't think things through before they criticize and lay blame or they make statements because the media, their friends or MTV told them they should. I am guilty of it, too, but folks on here point it out which makes me a better person.

My brother lives in the Hollywood area of LA and less than a mile from a Whole Foods store. He's told me that he never shops there because it's much too expensive and doesn't have anything he needs that he can't get elsewhere at a lower price. That may not apply to OKC but I've always been fed very well when I visit him.

Apples to Oranges. We don't have anywhere near the alternative options that he has in LA.

I am not sure how many people on this thread are in the grocery store business but I have long standing exposure to it - it is an extremely competitive business with a low profit margin.

And your average person in a rural or semi rural area are ecstatic when Wal Mart comes to the area. The city folk who want to run Wal Mart into the dust because it isn't good enough for them aren't thinking about how their country cousins are so grateful for the opportunity to have choices in what they can buy. City folk who forget that not everyone lives their lifestyle are just as bad as an old farmer who has no clue what works in the city.

And the fact is, Wal Mart isn't getting a government subsidy. If they stay in business, it is because people want to buy from them. The ones who hate them should vote with their pocketbook.

They stay in business in Oklahoma because there are few alternatives. Coupled with the effects of the current economy. I can remember when WM advertised "Buy American". Now they are the #1 importer of goods from China in the US. I DO vote with my pocketbook, I can't say I have ever WANTED to buy anything from WM.

Wal Mart has over 50% of the grocery business in Oklahoma now. Couple that with the fact that Oklahoma only has about a 3 million population. Not much of an incentive for new markets to open up here anymore.

Wal-Mart doesn't just pimp the Chinese products, it actually comes out and tells American companies that if they want to sell their products in their stores, they better move their manufacturing out of the US. They did this with Huffy bikes and numerous other products.

It's an interesting strategy. They're helping move American jobs overseas so Americans can all become poorer and the more poor they are, the more Americans will have to shop at Wal-Mart and buy their ****ty Chinese products. Eureka!

Apples to Oranges. We don't have anywhere near the alternative options that he has in LA.

You are wrong about that. In the area he lives in there are only about 3 grocery stores within about a 5 miles radius. Granted if you want to get in your car and drive for miles there are many options but we don't even like to do that here in OKC let alone in the traffic nightmare of LA. I am still not saying we don't need more options here in OKC just that an upscale store like Whole Foods is not the only answer.