There was an interesting feature on KFOR today by Bobbie Miller which mentioned Whole Foods prominently. It was concerning organic products at grocery stores and the cost versus desirability. I tried to find a link on their website but it wasn't there yet so this is partly by memory. I think they said the price of organic products in most stores was about 40 percent higher than nonorganic. At Whole Foods the price was about 70 percent higher. They also had an expert mentioning that there was absolutely no scientific proof currently that eating organic products was any healthier. So for those of you who want to buy organic, unless you have other reasons (and I know there are other reasons), you may be wasting your money.

There is never "absolute" scientific proof for anything. There is, however, plenty of scientific evidence that eating food laden with chemicals and modified genetically is making people less healthy.

I would rather eat food produced on a farm as opposed to something concocted in a lab. Whatever "science" the industrial food companies use I'm sure supports the argument Ms. Miller was discussing on Channel 4. Sounds like a flimsy report overall.

There is never "absolute" scientific proof for anything. There is, however, plenty of scientific evidence that eating food laden with chemicals and modified genetically is making people less healthy.

I would rather eat food produced on a farm as opposed to something concocted in a lab. Whatever "science" the industrial food companies use I'm sure supports the argument Ms. Miller was discussing on Channel 4. Sounds like a flimsy report overall.

I'm not sure the word "aboslute" was mentioned but evidently the expert that was interviewed doesn't agree with you about the health issue. I sure you consider a report that doesn't agree with you to be flimsy, though. I suspect that I've lived a few more years than you without eating organic food and I'm sure not going to spend that much more money changing now. As I said if you have other reasons for wanting organics that is reasonable but not for me. It's just a feel good, fashionable trend for people who want to say "look at what I'm doing" that isn't supportable by science.

There's some decent data out of Sweden regarding removing antibiotics as growth promoters for feed animals and a return to less resistant bacteria. A combination of that and widespread attempts to educate people about the facts that antibiotics don't cure colds, that adults with sore throats almost never need antibiotics, etc., has led to a significant drop in MRSA (methicillin resistant staph aureus) in that country. But, prohibiting use of antibiotics in feed animals had an effect independent of the mass education attempt.

There's some decent data out of Sweden regarding removing antibiotics as growth promoters for feed animals and a return to less resistant bacteria. A combination of that and widespread attempts to educate people about the facts that antibiotics don't cure colds, that adults with sore throats almost never need antibiotics, etc., has led to a significant drop in MRSA (methicillin resistant staph aureus) in that country. But, prohibiting use of antibiotics in feed animals had an effect independent of the mass education attempt.

I'm not totally convinced that there is no benefit at all but sometimes you have to weigh cost versus benefits and the cost is significant. That is, unless you're Howard Hughes, and want to spend your fortune trying to live in a germ free environment. LOL

I'm not totally convinced that there is no benefit at all but sometimes you have to weigh cost versus benefits and the cost is significant. That is, unless you're Howard Hughes, and want to spend your fortune trying to live in a germ free environment. LOL

Actually, with organic foods there are more germs... you know... no pesticides? It allows produce to interact naturally with the environment.

Actually, with organic foods there are more germs... you know... no pesticides? It allows produce to interact naturally with the environment.

Well, Howard Hughes didn't understand the difference ... you know. LOL

I'm not sure the word "aboslute" was mentioned but evidently the expert that was interviewed doesn't agree with you about the health issue. I sure you consider a report that doesn't agree with you to be flimsy, though. I suspect that I've lived a few more years than you without eating organic food and I'm sure not going to spend that much more money changing now. As I said if you have other reasons for wanting organics that is reasonable but not for me. It's just a feel good, fashionable trend for people who want to say "look at what I'm doing" that isn't supportable by science.

I couldn't care less what is fashionable. I'm not rich and I can't afford to throw money around, but I'm not an idiot. I don't trust the industrial food industry, and I would have no reason to, given the track record. You just want to argue and I'm not interested in that, so let's just agree to disagree. For the record, I don't want to feed my family genetically modified crap and food that is created in a test tube. If you're cool with that, bully for you, pal.

Actually, with organic foods there are more germs... you know... no pesticides? It allows produce to interact naturally with the environment.

With pesticide use there are fewer pests, but I believe those are insects, not germs. There are always germs, it's just that with animals fed antibiotics, the germs are more likely to be resistant to them.

I couldn't care less what is fashionable. I'm not rich and I can't afford to throw money around, but I'm not an idiot. I don't trust the industrial food industry, and I would have no reason to, given the track record. You just want to argue and I'm not interested in that, so let's just agree to disagree. For the record, I don't want to feed my family genetically modified crap and food that is created in a test tube. If you're cool with that, bully for you, pal.

Yes, I'm very cool with that and I'm also cool with the lesser cost. Genetically modified crap is your term, not mine for sure. Just because you're buying something that isn't high dollar organic doesn't mean it's genetically modified and I still want to see proof that even if something is genetically modified it's bad for you. Certainly if that's how you choose to spend your money that's your choice and I have no problem with it.

Drove by this morning, they had a couple truck loads of steel beams. Hopefully this means some real progress soon.

Yes, on the webcam you can see two big loads of what look like big beams.

Strange these would be on site when they haven't even poured the concrete foundation. Will be interesting to watch what happens.

very odd as those appear to be beam for the roof. I would guess the roof framing is still 6-8 weeks out.

Yes, on the webcam you can see two big loads of what look like big beams.

Strange these would be on site when they haven't even poured the concrete foundation. Will be interesting to watch what happens.

There was new shopping center here in Jax about 2 years ago and they didn't pour a foundation at all. Not sure if it is some kind of new enviro-construction method or not. They built the walls and roof and inside was still dirt floor. I'm not sure what they did about a foundation or what the floor sits on.

I did find a patent application for a foundationless wall system.

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20090188180

My friend from Tulsa constantly complains about the lack of choices there. She recently visited the new Crest Fresh Market and said she plans on loading up there when she visits.

The Reasors' in Jenks and at 15th & Lewis are both comparable to the new Crest market, IMO. Though Crest probably has better prices. Like Swake said the older Reasors stores are more like Homeland while the newer ones are closer to Safeway and HEB. Reasor's has expressed interest in opening stores in the OKC metro so if and when they do that will provide another option.

One of the best things about the newer Whole Food's stores are the cafe's. Lots of premade items, great salad bar, etc. The one in Tulsa has always been lacking because it was Wild Oat's concept which was smaller than WF. It's great to see they are now expanding the cafe by occupying the space next to the store. Hopefully the one in OKC includes an attractive outdoor seating area, the one in Tulsa will never have one due to its location.

All the recent WF's have big deli/food stations with outdoor seating, so I'm sure the one in OKC will be no exception.

They just opened a location two miles from me that is slightly smaller than the OKC store and I'd say 25% of the space is devoted to the deli/cafe.

I could be wrong, but it appears there MIGHT be an outdoor cafe seating area on the NE corner of the building. The outside wall they are working on has a curved shape too it that overlooks the drainage ditch area. I think it'd be a great area to put one, especially if they enhance that creek/drainage ditch with some nice landscaping.

Are you talking about the curved wall that they have been building section by section for the past couple of weeks? I think that may be the back of the store based upon the artists rendering we saw a couple weeks ago.

http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/ae288/snewlon/WholeFoods1.jpg

I would be more inclinded to say that the outside seating area is the funny rectangle framed in concrete in the lower right of the construction cam.

Looks like they are delivering steel today, so I think the foundation rumour is an unfounded one. Hope no one minds a bad pun.

I could be wrong, but it appears there MIGHT be an outdoor cafe seating area on the NE corner of the building. The outside wall they are working on has a curved shape too it that overlooks the drainage ditch area. I think it'd be a great area to put one, especially if they enhance that creek/drainage ditch with some nice landscaping.

That would be nice. I imagine they'll make it look similar to the creeks that flow through Chesapeake's campus, very canal-like.

For the life of me, I can't figure out what the heck they are doing at that construction site.

Not only do they now have several loads of steel without the foundation even poured, but they started demolition on the Glenbrook Centre West building several weeks ago and since then the crane at that site hasn't moved.

Also -- while the other CHK construction projects are overrun with workers -- the WF site and huge area around it never has more than a handful and they are always gone by the middle of the afternoon.

It's all very strange.

For the life of me, I can't figure out what the heck they are doing at that construction site.

Not only do they now have several loads of steel without the foundation even poured, but they started demolition on the Glenbrook Centre West building several weeks ago and since then the crane at that site hasn't moved.

Also -- while the other CHK construction projects are overrun with workers -- the WF site and huge area around it never has more than a handful and they are always gone by the middle of the afternoon.

It's all very strange.

Maybe this is more of an "organic" construction project, employing legal workers receiving a living wage.

Are you talking about the curved wall that they have been building section by section for the past couple of weeks? I think that may be the back of the store based upon the artists rendering we saw a couple weeks ago.

I would be more inclined to say that the outside seating area is the funny rectangle framed in concrete in the lower right of the construction cam.

Yes, that is the section I am talking about (and if you notice, I was the one that initially posted the rendering you exampled, so I am very familiar with the site). I drive by it everyday and still think it COULD be an outdoor seating area. Without renderings from other angles, it is hard to tell. Why else would they make the back corner of the store curved for when it has the room to be a rectangle as depicted? Seems like the POSSIBILITY of an outdoor cafe area. I definitely could be wrong though, but nonetheless, I bet it is some sort of interesting feature.

For the life of me, I can't figure out what the heck they are doing at that construction site.

Not only do they now have several loads of steel without the foundation even poured, but they started demolition on the Glenbrook Centre West building several weeks ago and since then the crane at that site hasn't moved.

Also -- while the other CHK construction projects are overrun with workers -- the WF site and huge area around it never has more than a handful and they are always gone by the middle of the afternoon.

It's all very strange.

The footings appear to be poured. I thought perhaps they were going to finish the retaining wall before pouring the foundation, but who knows!

Many more truckloads of steel to the WF site today.

They must be planning to put that up before pouring the foundation. Or, they fell behind schedule and had to take delivery of the steel before they were ready for it.

Maybe the steel supplier wanted to make delivery before the end of the month / billing cycle?

I know suppliers always like to push out materials whenever they can in order to help them with cash flow.

Steel was delivered about a month or so in advance of the foundation and ramp concrete pour for the new Atlantic Aviation hangar and FBO facility at the airport. I think it has more to do with just getting most everything needed for initial construction on site first. That way, once you start you don't have to stop work on account of a shipment being a day late. Nothing to worry about methinks.

Yes, that is the section I am talking about (and if you notice, I was the one that initially posted the rendering you exampled, so I am very familiar with the site). I drive by it everyday and still think it COULD be an outdoor seating area. Without renderings from other angles, it is hard to tell. Why else would they make the back corner of the store curved for when it has the room to be a rectangle as depicted? Seems like the POSSIBILITY of an outdoor cafe area. I definitely could be wrong though, but nonetheless, I bet it is some sort of interesting feature.

Sorry about taking that from your previous post without having a more careful eye as to who posted it. Is the curved wall you reference the stuff they are building with the boards or something different? the stuff they are making with the board i thought was just a retaining wall but i am watching all the construction via the camera and hardy ever go by the site.

I did notice that a crane showed up today so maybe they are going to start putting up framing next week?

The footings are already done. I'll try and snap some pics at lunch. Also I think we may see the first steel installed today : )

Yes, the crane is in place and it looks like they will start erecting steel today.

Interestingly, the crane is actually placed inside the footings, perhaps because of the creek behind. So, they must have planned to allow the crane to roll over what will be the foundation, which is why it will be poured afterwards.

First steel!
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_CEoXlIKrtDY/TPk-vWj_qNI/AAAAAAAAAFs/GmNJ56bgLfs/S1024/Whole_Foods_Market-20101203-125105-1.jpg

That is a lot of structure they put up today.

I wonder what that massive steel beam on the left side of the cam is for. I just got delivered today. Is it for some kind of bridge?

They already erected a large bridge across the creek... I suppose they could be putting in a pedestrian bridge over Western.

Or, it could be just the center beam for the entire WF structure.

So i have been looking at the construction cam and what they are making doesn't seem to make any sense to me. IS this thing going to be 2 stories?

I also keep loooking at the back of the store and wondering if Metro is right about some kind of eating area overlooking the field. it look like maybe they did a awning or something?

So i have been looking at the construction cam and what they are making doesn't seem to make any sense to me. IS this thing going to be 2 stories?

I also keep loooking at the back of the store and wondering if Metro is right about some kind of eating area overlooking the field. it look like maybe they did a awning or something?

I'm pretty sure the offices will be on the second story.

They already erected a large bridge across the creek... I suppose they could be putting in a pedestrian bridge over Western.

Or, it could be just the center beam for the entire WF structure.

I also heard that there will be a pedestrian bridge from NH plaza over 63rd.

Looking at the construction cam (http://oxblue.com/pro/open/smithandpickel/wholefoods), it looks like they are tearing down the office building that used to house Varsity. I couldn't find the Chesapeake Master Plan for that area. Any clue as to what's going in there?

warren, in the Chesapeake Empire thread there are several posts about the Glenbrook Centre East building coming down and most likely a hotel going up in it's place.


As for WF, I'm sure the 2-story structure in the back is for offices and/or storage.

That really blows about the Varsity building. I (my friends who worked there as well) knew that Chesapeake bought the land and that eventually the building would be brought down, but I can't believe we're already here. Many memories being destroyed...

Hate to sound negative, but why all the craze about Classen Curve? It's nothing but an outdoor shopping center, no different from something like Mayfair Village, only newer. It's not really all that big, and the spaces have no depth, so don't count on any major retail attractions going in there other than for small boutique like stores. I drove through there last weekend and couldn't believe how small the buildings actually are. No way retailers like Urban Outfitters or Anthropologie are going to locate there because the spaces are too small. Comparing Classen Curve to Utica Square is like comparing a Honda Civic to a Hummer.

It's a sharp little development with some very nice local boutiques and restaurants. Did you go into RePUBlic? It's fantastic inside with a great back patio and delicious food.

I'm sure CHK is reserving the bigger retailers for the area around Whole Foods and the remodeled NH Plaza. Eventually, there is going to be tons of space to fill. BTW, each of those properties is about the same size as Utica Square.

Anthro's objection was the configuration of the space (long and rectangular whereas they wanted a smaller store front and a deeper store) and all the windows, not the square footage. And I'd be shocked if eventually Classen Curve didn't expand to the south another couple of blocks, which will give it a much more open feel. It's certainly starting to be a fun place to shop, with Balliet's and On A Whim, and I really liked BD Home when it was on 9th St.

Yeah betts, my only complaint is that there's no depth to the buildings in the complex. I mean, I hate to focus on the negative, because it is an interesting little complex, but I just don't see it being a big draw for the upscale national retailers we're looking for...i.e., The Container Store, Anthropologie, Urban Outfitters, etc. etc. Maybe like Pete says....maybe there are more plans for the land closer to Whole Foods.

I also have to admit though, I just don't see the craze about Whole Foods though either. I mean have any of you guys been in Central Market in Dallas? I'd long to have something like that over a Whole Foods. HEB did a fine job designing Central Market.

Yeah betts, my only complaint is that there's no depth to the buildings in the complex. I mean, I hate to focus on the negative, because it is an interesting little complex, but I just don't see it being a big draw for the upscale national retailers we're looking for...i.e., The Container Store, Anthropologie, Urban Outfitters, etc. etc. Maybe like Pete says....maybe there are more plans for the land closer to Whole Foods.

I also have to admit though, I just don't see the craze about Whole Foods though either. I mean have any of you guys been in Central Market in Dallas? I'd long to have something like that over a Whole Foods. HEB did a fine job designing Central Market.
Whole Foods is being built, HEB/Central Market is not building stores in Oklahoma yet, only in Texas and Mexico. You take what you can get, if it was a Trader Joe's, Sunflower or Sprouts I am sure people would be excited as well.

I think the current Classen Curve is not meant for the large national chains, even though many of them are in similar floor plate type locations. I would bet that is what other parts of the land near Classen Curve and Whole Foods is designated for. Some of the stores in The Domain (Austin) are not that much deeper than what Classen Curve has to offer.

Yes, the size/depth of the bays at Classen Curve was intentional to lure the small boutique tenants. I think most the depths are 50 to 60 feet, so that allows for a small store that still can have a decent amount of store front.

Their vision must be to get some of the larger, upscale national chains for their larger parcels around WF and in NH Plaza. You can imagine the potential of a Crate & Barrel, Restoration Hardware, H&M and the like. They are going to have plenty of retail space to fill if/when all that gets built.

Can somebody take a picture of the back of the steel structure or at least describe what it look like on the ground? From the web cam it look like a giant covered patio area running along the back of the site.

I think you guys may be right about it now being 2 stories but that second deck being for storage only as it looks to little as current for people to really move around up there.

WHen is the estimated open date?

I would estimate they could be open in 3-4 months, so sometime this spring.

The one variable is the broader development, in that CHK is doing lots of work on that entire area and that may hold up WF. But these stores come together quite quickly once all the outside work is done. They have experienced teams that get in there and get the interior together, have all the fixtures ordered, then stock it up.

I noticed they were working yesterday (Sunday) so it looks like they are motivated to get this done, even though in the original press release they estimated opening "in late 2011".

Awesome. The GF won't stop talking about getting some delicious WF pasta salad. :) Thanks Pete.

The surest sign of a close opening date is when they post jobs, which they haven't done yet.

They usually go up about 1-2 months before opening.

I just took a look at the web cam and they have made alot of progress since last month. Looks like the steel work is done and they have the roof and 2 of the walls up. 2-3 months would seem reasonable for a opening date.

Has anybody taken and ground level photo? it would be interesting to see what the store looks like from some different angles.

I'm surprised there are no photos of the site yet... What's up, OKCTalkers?!?

There are if you scroll back a few pages.

I was talking about recent construction photos.


Hey Metro,
Do you still think there will be a eating area in that one corner? They are doing something strange in it but i still can't figure out what.

No, based on current construction it looks like it may be in the NW corner if they have outdoor seating.

I saw this interesting article today with information that is helpful for people like me who would never go to Whole Foods to buy my weekly staples but might go there for specialty items.

http://shine.yahoo.com/event/financiallyfit/what-you-should-buy-at-whole-foods-and-what-to-skip-2440250/

Nuts. I saw somebody post and was hoping that metro had returned with on the ground pictures. :P

A good article and for the most part i would say it is spot on. The health and beauty section of Whole Foods at all costs. I like at some of those little bottles and they want $40 for one. I keep thinking what the heck is that stuff made of and can it really be that much better for you? lol

I saw this interesting article today with information that is helpful for people like me who would never go to Whole Foods to buy my weekly staples but might go there for specialty items.

http://shine.yahoo.com/event/financiallyfit/what-you-should-buy-at-whole-foods-and-what-to-skip-2440250/

Yeah, our experience with WF has been that if it's available anywhere else at all, you should buy it there, and only buy things at Whole Foods that you absolutely cannot find anywhere else. A random box of cereal that we compared cost $2 more at WF than at Dominick's (in Illinois).

My experience shopping at both Reasor's and Whole Foods (in Tulsa) is that when it comes to fruits and vegetables the prices are very similar, and the quality is better at WF. Packaged foods are way more expensive at WF so I don't buy those things there. Same for chicken, beef, etc. WF is definitely the best for specialty items like cheeses, and you can't beat their prepared foods for a quick, easy dinner. I'm glad to see the Tulsa WF expanding this area, and good to see the one U/C in OKC will have a large cafe area too.

The meats and seafood are expensive but of excellent quality.


As mentioned, produce and their various counters (deli, bakery, noodle bar, etc.) are fantastic and probably the biggest draw.

has anybody seen a date on when the expansion of the wholefoods in tulsa is supposed to be complete?