View Full Version : CAIR protest today at the Capitol



Nermel
01-05-2009, 05:39 PM
It was rather interesting coming across a CAIR (Council on American Islamic Relations) protest today at the state capitol. Plenty of anti Jewish signs, even a few (anti jewish) chants that were made by a few in the group.

Was rather scary seeing how some elements of Oklahoma's population feel. What was covered on the local news, was somewhat sanitized.

OKCMallen
01-05-2009, 08:37 PM
I, for one, like seeing the local community paying attention to the world and doing something about it, even if it's an impotent showing.

CuatrodeMayo
01-05-2009, 08:48 PM
Or a misguided one.

bornhere
01-05-2009, 09:34 PM
What did these anti-Jewish chants and signs say?

Nermel
01-05-2009, 11:54 PM
Chants, one reference I did hear to Zionists. Not many in the group were doing that, nor did I want to and ask for a transcript. Was too far to hear word for word. However, the photos at newsok are rather interesting. Swastika and a star of david combined on a poster.

Oh GAWD the Smell!
01-05-2009, 11:55 PM
Pairing a swastika with the star of david?

Wow.

soonerguru
01-06-2009, 12:02 AM
I'm not sure it was anti-Jewish, so much as anti-Israeli. I think Israel essentially has no choice but to attack, but I do blame the Likud Party in Israel for digging itself in a hole continually. The hardliners' approach has been an abysmal failure.

And yet, the moderate elements in Palestine do not wield the sticks. Arafat was a bit nutty but he did know what would happen if the Palestinians were given the vote. Now we have Hamas in charge, democratically elected in Gaza.

It's a shame this is happening now but there is no easy answer to the conflict. Israel has done a poor job, however, expelling its radical settlers out of the West Bank. Unfortunately, that hurts Israel's credibility.

People wiser than me have pointed out that the Arab street is fairly easily manipulated by corrupt Middle Eastern regimes, who frame every failure as the fault of the West and Israel. Indeed, there are many politicians in our country who try that with racial politics and other nativist polemics. But it would be nice if the average Joe in the Middle East would begin to recognize the failures of their own regimes, first, before supplicating their despair with anti-Western fervor.

The situation only becomes more toxic, and the cynics usually prevail.

NativeOkie
01-06-2009, 01:02 AM
"We can forgive you for killing our children, We will never forgive you for making us kill yours. We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us."
Golda Mier

USG '60
01-06-2009, 08:33 AM
"We can forgive you for killing our children, We will never forgive you for making us kill yours. We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us."
Golda Mier

Wow. TRULY profound.

Kerry
01-06-2009, 11:13 AM
Muslims attacking Israel, muslims attacking India, muslims attacking "the west", muslims attacking other muslims. Anyone else noticing a pattern? If you take away conflicts involving muslims, who else on this planet is at war with each other?

bretthexum
01-06-2009, 02:01 PM
Muslims attacking Israel, muslims attacking India, muslims attacking "the west", muslims attacking other muslims. Anyone else noticing a pattern? If you take away conflicts involving muslims, who else on this planet is at war with each other?

That's a stretch. The radical muslims are a VERY small percentage of all muslims in the world. It's like saying all Christians think god is punishing us for tolerance of gays (ie. Westboro Church and those looney groups).

soonerguru
01-06-2009, 02:34 PM
The radical muslims would like nothing more than for the West to declare holy war on muslims. This kind of chaos is what terrorists seek. We don't have to play into it.

Kerry
01-06-2009, 03:05 PM
That's a stretch. The radical muslims are a VERY small percentage of all muslims in the world. It's like saying all Christians think god is punishing us for tolerance of gays (ie. Westboro Church and those looney groups).

Fine, we'll do this your way. Radical muslims attacking Israel, radical muslims attacking India, radical muslims attacking "the west", radical muslims attacking other muslims. Anyone else noticing a pattern? If you take away the radical muslims conflicts, who on Earth would be fighting right now?

BTW, please direct me to the muslim groups that are fighting against radical muslim aggression.

bretthexum
01-06-2009, 03:12 PM
BTW, please direct me to the muslim groups that are fighting against radical muslim aggression.

The billions that live in peace.

SOONER8693
01-06-2009, 03:14 PM
Kerry, I believe you've hit the nail on the head.

bretthexum
01-06-2009, 03:30 PM
OK, I give in. All Muslims are evil. Is that what you want to hear?

EDIT: Sorry, I am in a pissy mood. Bad day. I'm just trying to see your point on this whole deal. My neighbor is a Muslim. Of course he doesn't promote violence or killing.

I just don't understand the phrase - BTW, please direct me to the muslim groups that are fighting against radical muslim aggression.

MadMonk
01-06-2009, 06:59 PM
Where are all the protesters (Muslim or otherwise) when Hamas is raining rockets down on Israel? As for non-extremist Muslims (especially the leadership, Imams, etc), barring a few exceptions, their silence is deafening.

Kerry
01-06-2009, 07:31 PM
OK, I give in. All Muslims are evil. Is that what you want to hear?

EDIT: Sorry, I am in a pissy mood. Bad day. I'm just trying to see your point on this whole deal. My neighbor is a Muslim. Of course he doesn't promote violence or killing.

I just don't understand the phrase - BTW, please direct me to the muslim groups that are fighting against radical muslim aggression.

Wow bretthexum! How blind are you to what goes on in the world? How do you know your muslim neighbor doesn't want to kill you? Just kidding on that last part. I don't know anyone that thinks all muslims are evil. In fact, on a personal level most of them are quite nice (atleast the ones I know). However, there is a very vocal and violent fraction of their religion that is over the top evil. I just don't hear any of the moderate muslims speaking out very much.

The Klu Klux Klan was a violent hate group (and still is) and for many years they operated without fear of being punished for their crimes. It wasn't until other whites stepped up and said enough is enough and put an end to their brand of terrorism. Where is the muslim equivalent? Ask your neighbor how he feels about the current situation in Gaza. You might be shocked by his response.

soonerguru
01-06-2009, 07:40 PM
I just don't hear any of the moderate muslims speaking out very much.


That is a good point. The problem is that many Muslims of all persuasions are angry at Israel, and we are perceived as Israel's biggest defender.

Fine. What complicates matters is many of our policies in the middle east have not worked out well for us in the long run, for example, radicalizing the wrong elements, giving arms and training to the wrong elements, etc.

A great example is the Mujahadeen of Afghanistan. We gave them training and munitions to fight off the Soviets. We trained 'em well, with CIA help. Less than a generation later they were forming Al Quaeda.

Also, we prop up brutal regimes in the region, like Saudi Arabia, or the Shah or Iran, or even Saddam, when it benefits us economically. Then, things unravel.

The US is viewed as a big hypocrite on the Arab street. This is not necessarily accurate, but we have done some dumb **** to undermine our own aims, and continue to do dumb ****.

The worst thing we could do as a country is somehow manage to inflame the moderate Muslims and turn them against us by exclaiming that they are murderous fiends. That's not going to really help matters, not to mention it's total bull****.

bornhere
01-06-2009, 07:52 PM
May I ask why we have an "Arab street"? We never hear about the "English street" or the "Canadian street" or the "Chinese street." How did the Arabs get to be the only ethnic or national group with its own 'street'?

Kerry
01-06-2009, 08:43 PM
LOL bornhere - but what about Chinatown. Here is the problem I see with US foreign policy. We elect new leaders every 2 and 4 years and each has their own agendas on foreign policy. People with a foundation in religion (muslims in this example) don't outlive their faith the way Americans outlive the current ruling party (hope that makes sense). In other words, our foreign policy is dependent on who the President is and it changes every 4 to 8 years. Muslims foreign policy never changes. They have been waring with western Europe and the Jews for 800 years before anyone knew America was even here. We change aliances every 48 months.

MadMonk
01-06-2009, 08:58 PM
It's all Obama's fault. :LolLolLol
Report: Al-Qaida No. 2 blames Obama for Gaza fight - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090107/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_al_qaida_tape_gaza)

Midtowner
01-06-2009, 09:18 PM
That is a good point. The problem is that many Muslims of all persuasions are angry at Israel, and we are perceived as Israel's biggest defender.

Fine. What complicates matters is many of our policies in the middle east have not worked out well for us in the long run, for example, radicalizing the wrong elements, giving arms and training to the wrong elements, etc.

A great example is the Mujahadeen of Afghanistan. We gave them training and munitions to fight off the Soviets. We trained 'em well, with CIA help. Less than a generation later they were forming Al Quaeda.

Also, we prop up brutal regimes in the region, like Saudi Arabia, or the Shah or Iran, or even Saddam, when it benefits us economically. Then, things unravel.

The US is viewed as a big hypocrite on the Arab street. This is not necessarily accurate, but we have done some dumb **** to undermine our own aims, and continue to do dumb ****.

The worst thing we could do as a country is somehow manage to inflame the moderate Muslims and turn them against us by exclaiming that they are murderous fiends. That's not going to really help matters, not to mention it's total bull****.

I agree. Anyone who thinks that moderate Muslims, i.e., educated Muslims somehow think Iran and Hamas are blameless here doesn't know wtf they are talking about.

Sooner, I had just about this exact conversation with a Muslim gentleman today.

The fact is that no one speaks for the moderate Muslims. You could as much appoint a spokesman for that 'group' of people as you could for all of the Midtowners of the world (I'm the only one I know of). Muslims are not a monolithic people. Just like Christians, they have a variety of opinions, some valid and good, some tainted by idiotic religious mumbo-jumbo (just like many of the Christian folks we all know, you know, the folks who actually think the Earth was created in 7 days, etc.).

Kerry
01-06-2009, 09:52 PM
Midtowner - CNN has no problem finding a Christian spokesperson, or a conservative spokesperson, a liberal spokesperson, a black spokesperson, or a Hispanic spokesperson. I just never see anyone being held up by the media as a moderate Muslim spokesperson. I also don't see anyone volunteering to be the moderate Muslim spokesperson. Where is the Arab Al Sharpton, the Arab Ann Coulter, the Arab Bob Beckel, the Arab Jerry Falwell. Sharpton, Coulter, Beckel, Falwell represent large groups of people who didn't elect them to any postion of authority. The truth is if anyone from the Muslim community spoke out and tried to stop radical Islam they would be killed. So most just sit there and keep their mouth shut while the radical element of their religion goes about bombing everything that moves.

CuatrodeMayo
01-07-2009, 06:54 AM
Just like Christians, they have a variety of opinions, some valid and good, some tainted by idiotic religious mumbo-jumbo (just like many of the Christian folks we all know, you know, the folks who actually think the Earth was created in 7 days, etc.).


Eh...been called worse.

Karried
01-07-2009, 07:28 AM
"We can forgive you for killing our children, We will never forgive you for making us kill yours. We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us."
Golda Mier


Man, that brought tears to my eyes ....

The whole thing is a travesty.

But when is it not, war and bombing innocent children... what a world we live in. Crazy

We are so immune and numb to it all... imagine your child in the some of those photos. Horrific.

Midtowner
01-07-2009, 10:04 AM
The truth is if anyone from the Muslim community spoke out and tried to stop radical Islam they would be killed. So most just sit there and keep their mouth shut while the radical element of their religion goes about bombing everything that moves.

I don't think they'd be killed, at least if they stayed in the U.S. Certainly, there would be negative repercussions at home, but they don't have to go home.

And as far as calling all Middle Eastern Muslims "Arabs," you're forgetting that the Middle East, like anyplace else is a mix of various ethnic groups. While the Arabs are certainly dominant in some parts of the region, there are other major groups, notably, Persians.

And the media could find such a spokesperson, but IMHO, the media has no interest in portraying the middle east as a complicated place that doesn't hate America, but rather has extremely well justified contempt for the manner in which we've conducted our foreign policy.

ETA: If you think CNN is the end all/be all of being informed, you are grossly mistaken. Listen to NPR's "All Things Considered," or the BBC World News Program, and you'll hear plenty of moderate, modern Muslim voices.

Kerry
01-07-2009, 01:21 PM
Moderate Muslims don't need to talk to me; I'm not the jihadist - yet. They need to talk to the radical elements of their religion or talk to our military and tell them where the radicals are hiding.

The KKK wasn't stopped by regular Americans talking to other regular Americans. It was stopped by regular Americans both talking to known Klansmen and persuading them to stop or by telling government officials where the Klan rallies were and testifying in court as to Klan activity.

Radical Islam will only stop when the moderate Muslims get tired of it or until we kill the radicals ourselves. I lean towards killing the radicals. The moderate Muslims can get tired on their own time frame and catch up later. By then there shouldn't be as many radicals to persuade to stop.

MestaParkMan
01-07-2009, 02:05 PM
Midtowner - CNN has no problem finding a Christian spokesperson, or a conservative spokesperson, a liberal spokesperson, a black spokesperson, or a Hispanic spokesperson. I just never see anyone being held up by the media as a moderate Muslim spokesperson. I also don't see anyone volunteering to be the moderate Muslim spokesperson. Where is the Arab Al Sharpton, the Arab Ann Coulter, the Arab Bob Beckel, the Arab Jerry Falwell. Sharpton, Coulter, Beckel, Falwell represent large groups of people who didn't elect them to any postion of authority. The truth is if anyone from the Muslim community spoke out and tried to stop radical Islam they would be killed. So most just sit there and keep their mouth shut while the radical element of their religion goes about bombing everything that moves.


Maybe you should get news from other sources than just CNN. I often hear from moderate muslim speakers on various NPR programs (for example, Diane Rehm show) and also on the BBC news program on BBC America. Also I the Daily Show and Real Time with Bill Maher have featured several moderate muslim and arab scholars.

hoya
01-07-2009, 02:18 PM
You can't say that US policies in the area have been failures. When we supplied weapons to Afghanistan, it was to stop the Soviets. Much as we hate Al Quaeda, can we say with conviction that 9/11 was too high a price for preventing Soviet expansion? We don't know how things would have turned out today had they successfully taken Afghanistan. For all we know, we'd be speaking Russian.

Every action we've taken has been for a specific purpose. Now, there may have been unintended consequences, but that doesn't mean we didn't have good reason to do it in the first place. In 40 years, we may look back at the wisdom and prescience of men like George W Bush. We just don't know about "what ifs".

Midtowner
01-07-2009, 02:35 PM
When you're talking about ending thousands of lives and toppling foreign regimes for specious reasons, I think we need to justify that with more than a potential good thing to happen 40 years from now and a hope that maybe someday, something good will come out of what looks like a pretty dumb act today.

I was for the war before I was against it. I suppose every generation gets its own shot at seeing why they can't trust the government to use its military assets wisely.

NativeOkie
01-07-2009, 03:17 PM
I work in this field,
I know many who speak out, Walid Shoebat, Noni Darwish, Nassir Siddiki, Bridgette Gabriel, funny thing they all used to be Muslim. All have a price on their head from the Mullahs.
While they were Muslim they did not speak out.
Where are the Moderates?
We are waiting?
It reminds one of the German people living near the death camps.
"we did not know"
Your silence is deafening!
I could provide volumes of facts concerning this.
I know facts are lost on some in OKC Talk.
Invest in yourself, read Power Faith and Fantasy
"America in the Middle East from 1776 to present.
by Michael B. Oren
they Jihad has been going on that long.

Kerry
01-07-2009, 07:39 PM
It is funny to mention the Soviet Union as to why we had to supply arms to Afgans. The Korean and Vietnam wars were fought because we didn't follow the advice of Patton at the end of WWII and defeat the Soviets then. After WWII the land that had been liberated by US and Allied forces were return to soverignty, the land liberated by the Russians became part of the USSR. Russia was able to influence China to convert to communism and to lead communist expansion into SE Asia - ala Korea and Vietnam Wars and then the 50 years of the cold war.

So what would have happened to the world if the USSR had gained a foothold in the middle east? Just take a look at the news today - Russia cuts off fuel supply to Eastern Europe. Would you like to have Russia in charge of the global spicket?

This is why we need to develope a new fuel source. Until then blood for oil might be a necessity. I am still waiting for crystallic fusion that was promised by Buzz Lightyear.

NativeOkie
01-07-2009, 11:21 PM
Okay,
I will admit that the war in Iraq was for oil!
If you will admit the war in Korea was for Kimchee. (spelling?)
We fought Germany for lower beer prices and brats.
Nam was for those little umbrellas you put in drinks.
Please.
We have never conquered a country and annexed it as the USSR.

soonerguru
01-08-2009, 12:42 AM
In 40 years, we may look back at the wisdom and prescience of men like George W Bush.

I'll have some of what you're smoking.

soonerguru
01-08-2009, 01:08 AM
They need to talk to the radical elements of their religion or talk to our military and tell them where the radicals are hiding.


Come on, man. We get that you're building a case against the billions of people who are Muslim, but there are plenty of Muslims who have supported the war on terror, and some of them, gulp, aren't even moderate, like Pakistan, for example, which has killed and captured more Al Quaeda operatives than the USA has. Their former president, Musharaff, stuck his neck out to support the US in this effort. Every day, policemen, teachers and government bureaucrats are killed because they are supporting the new Iraqi government and the US efforts in the region.

Do you just ignore their efforts? Did you get your info from Fox News?

What about all of the Muslim countries that fought alongside the US in the first Gulf War? What about the everyday Iraqi citizens who assist the US military in its efforts to root out the insurgency? What about the Anbar Awakening? What about all of the Shia in Iraq, who, during the first Gulf War, following our exit, listened to Bush Sr. and rose up against Saddam, only to be brutally slaughtered by the hundreds?

Have you been to Israel? Ever met a Palestinian? Most of the Palestinians -- and Israelis -- just want to live a peaceful life and care for their families. Without Palestinian labor, Israel's economy would probably tank. To watch American news media, one is led to believe the West Bank is one endless intifada with molotov-cocktail throwing madmen. Yes, it happens. However, most Palestinians would not and do not engage in this activity, despite their legit grievances against the Israeli government.

It serves the interests of Fox News -- and yes, CNN -- to oversimplify the conflicts in the Middle East for American viewers. Most of us on this board, if we were to get our info from cable news networks, would be truly clueless about what's actually occurring in Iraq, let alone the rest of the Middle East, which, as Midtowner reminds us, is anything but monolithic in thought.

Back to the original point, there are thousands -- probably millions -- of Muslims who are putting their lives on the line to resist the jihadists and extremists.

The implications of statements like yours sadly serve to undermine the US's best efforts to make a difference -- and disentangle when possible -- in the region. The sad irony would be to alienate all Muslims, including the anti-exremists in the region, against the US by making statements calling them murderers, saying their religion condones murder, etc., as many dumb people have done.

The terrorists would love to inflame and exaggerate the divisions between moderate Muslim states and the West, and by somehow advancing these divisions into a war of Christian against Muslim, the terrorists would succeed beyond their wildest dreams.

bretthexum
01-08-2009, 08:26 AM
In 40 years, we may look back at the wisdom and prescience of men like George W Bush.

Wow. Even our ultra right winger Prunepicker thinks W was a huge failure... ;)

Nermel
01-09-2009, 10:34 AM
Looks like the protest here was very calm, compared to elsewhere.

LiveLeak.com - Raw hate: Palestinians taunt Jews "Go back to the oven" (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=584_1231346212)

Makes me wonder if they will have more protests in the coming weeks here.

urbanity
04-28-2010, 07:38 AM
Point: Christians and Muslims in Oklahoma | OKG Scene.com (http://www.okgazette.com/p/12738/a/6136/Default.aspx?ReturnUrl=LwBEAGUAZgBhAHUAbAB0AC4AYQB zAHAAeAAslashAHAAPQAxADIANwAzADgA)

urbanity
04-28-2010, 07:38 AM
Counterpoint: ?Proclaiming truth is not hateful? | OKG Scene.com (http://www.okgazette.com/p/12738/a/6135/Default.aspx?ReturnUrl=LwBEAGUAZgBhAHUAbAB0AC4AYQB zAHAAeAAslashAHAAPQAxADIANwAzADgA)