ABC News: Big Three Should Stand On Their Own Feet (http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/Story?id=6343705&page=2)



Does this idiot not realize that if the Detroit three went under the whole country would go under?

Does this idiot not realize that if the Detroit three went under the whole country would go under?

Yeah, lord knows if we couldn't buy our GM vehicles the world would simply cease to exist. Give me a break. There are idiots sharing their opinion, but it isn't John Stossel.

I say let them go into bankruptcy, renegotiate the union contracts (down to virtually nothing) and start over.

Wait, isn't there already a thread on this?

I like Kia's approach - NO UNIONS.

Remove their ridiculous salaries and benefits and the big 3 could pump out reasonably priced cars.

It still amazes me that the American public doesn't bat an eye at new car prices starting at $24,000 for a decent car that will be worth a fraction of that price in 10-years.

I bought my son a new used car for getting a college scholarship (saved me at least $30K). It is a one owner and still had the original paperwork in the glove box. The owner paid $26,000 in 1998 and I bought it 10-years later for under $2,000 and it only has 65,000 miles on it.

Cars should only cost $8,000-$18,000 in my opinion. Cut out the fat and we're there.

ABC News: Big Three Should Stand On Their Own Feet (http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/Story?id=6343705&page=2)



Does this idiot not realize that if the Detroit three went under the whole country would go under?

We need these failed corporations to actually FAIL. That's how evolution works to make things better. Trying to bail out failed companies and their greedy executives is an attempt to defy the laws of physics.

I would have LOVED to have had a job for two decades where I could do basically nothing and make a huge salary, and if I made huge mistakes, there was no penalty. That basically describes what's been happening lately in corporate America.

We need a good healthy dose of failure in this country. Failure teaches us painful lessons. If the government wants to do bailouts, they should divide that 700 billion dollars up amongst all the taxpayers who've been cheated all these years. Give me my share and I'll stimulate your economy for ya!

If the big three went under it would turn out to be the best thing that has happened to corporate America in a very long time. There HAS to be a penalty for failure in this world. It cannot be tied to gigantic severance packages and all that crap. We need a serious case of "natural selection" in America, and starting with the big three would be just fine with me.

My next car will be either a Honda, Toyota, or Nissan. I won't line the pockets of the domestic car makers anymore with their "union handout" mentality.

Ok let me explain in simple terms that even an Oklahoman can understand....Which will be hard to do...but here it goes.

The Detroit three go under....all their dealerships close in every state....hundreds of thousands of people lose their jobs....buying nothing...not even the Toyotas, Kia's, BMW's.....etc., not buying anything they dont need....houses even more so going into forclosure...parts suppliers go under....yes even Johnson Controls in Norman...Nah that would'nt affect OKC..


I agree the Detroit three need to restructure....nobody needs to make the $45.00 an hour the union guys are making here...I agree...


I am tired of getting beat-up by the media and some of the public who doesn't have a clue. I have worked in product development in the auto industry for the past 15 years. Does ANYONE who doesn't work in the industry understand what it takes to bring a product to the public? NO! NONE OF THEM! Who demanded the big trucks and suv's? That would be the consumer. Auto makers only provided what the consumer wanted. If the big three focused on little cars when Trucks and SUV's were in demand they would have went out of business 15 years ago. GET A CLUE!!! No one knows what the big-3 are working on because they don't care to find out, they are all just quick to judge with out a clue. How about YOU GIVE UP YOUR JOB because I don't like what YOU do.

No one could have predicted gas prices to rise 400%, NO ONE!

STEP-BACK; RE-GROUP; AND BE FAIR IF YOU THINK YOU CAN....I know it's hard for Okie's but try.




Jesus fing christ....nobdy wants to see the government fail...even though they cant even control themselves....but they sure are quick to damn the Detroit three...


Go ahead and buy Toyota, Kia's and others....Doesn't bother me...I have enough to live on for a couple years before I need to find another job....in fact I could use a vacation.

My next car will be either a Honda, Toyota, or Nissan. I won't line the pockets of the domestic car makers anymore with their "union handout" mentality.

But you have no problem lining the pockets of offshore corporations...making their dollar stronger and ours weaker...

It would be bad timing to let them fail now so I say let's give 'em $30 billion a piece and let them go bankrupt after the economy improves

Most of the $50 an hour guys can then join in on the infrastructure party Obama will be throwing...Hope they won't mind $30 an hour cuts

It would be bad timing to let them fail now so I say let's give 'em $30 billion a piece and let them go bankrupt after the economy improves

Most of the $50 an hour guys can then join in on the infrastructure party Obama will be throwing...Hope they won't mind $30 an hour cuts


Makes sense to me...lets get the economy fixed then pull the rug out from under it again...

Sheesh I give up on you Okies...

Does ANYONE who doesn't work in the industry understand what it takes to bring a product to the public?
Most people seem to have no clue how much work actually goes into building anything, I am in commercial architecture and we face it all the time in schedules and costs. I routinely work on multi-million dollar projects, by myself in time frames that would have been unheard of 20 years ago. Back then there would have been a team of people on it and the schedule would have been 2-3 times longer. It seems many people think we just push a few buttons on a computer and things just magically happen. People are wondering why there aren't all sorts of new cars coming to market because there was a demand for them a few months ago or footings already being poured for the Devon Tower. It is just a side effect of our short attention span society. People also don't understand that raw material costs are not the only thing that prices an item, they don't want to pay for R&D, product development/refinement/engineering costs, why do that when I can buy a direct knockoff from China using development paid for by someone else for a fraction of the price. People don't realize that most prices, along with their wages have only gone up because of the constant devaluation of the dollar, costs and wages neither one went up at the rate that they have in the past 30 or so years. Just based of my parents vehicles which were similar models over years you can see this climb.

1966 Ford Galaxie 500 - $3,200
1972 Ford LTD - $4,200
1983 Mercury Grand Marquis LS - $13,000
1997 Mercury Grand Marquis LS - $19,000
2006 Ford Freestyle Limited - $32,000

Those cars didn't just go up because materials were more expensive, they went up because the dollar became worth less and less over the years causing design and production to cost more, all this was fine as long as credit was cheap and easy. I remember when Ferrari came out with the Testarossa in the mid-80's they priced it just under 100,000 because they didn't think people would spend that much on one, dealers were selling them for 40-50,000 more than that, so Ferrari changed that rather quickly. In those days there were only a few "billionaires" and now the top 100 wealthiest list is pretty much all billionaires.

Now Detroit (and the UAW) have made many mistakes when times were good, much of that due to shareholder pressure to keep pumping out profits at the sake of development. The UAW has traditionally been a greedy group that has negotiated contracts that almost anyone in the private sector could only dream of and yet the car companies felt they had to agree to them. Detroit isn't to blame for all of its own problems, but a majority of them. I can see the need in "helping" them out but not "bailing" them out, the gov't helped out Chrysler in the late 70's and that turned out pretty good.

I tend to question the financial bailout more because that has been orchestrated by two of guilty (Paulson-the former head of Goldman Sachs & Bernanke-who believe printing new money is the solution) to help out their friends in their former line of work. If Citibank needs help, let the Sheik that controls them (and is considered the Saudi Warren Buffett) bail them out.

There is no right or wrong answer, I can see positives/negatives in a bailout of anyone. Right now everything going on reminds me of Kevin Bacon during the parade scene of Animal House.

I think if any of them fail it will be GM, Ford and Dodge have a fighting chance of making it.

The big three need to do three things.

1. Make a product the American people want.

2. Make two lines of vehicles affordable and long lasting. (The latter would be the more expensive vehicles.) I know I would be willing to pay 30K-40K for a vehicle if was guaranteed to last ten years. I hate buying cars. I want a car I can pay off and drive a little while before jumping into a new payment plan.

3. Stop copying the foriegn market make a product that stands alone from everyone else. They have proven they can do it. The pickup truck line and the new muscle car line are living proof they can.

Most people seem to have no clue how much work actually goes into building anything, I am in commercial architecture and we face it all the time in schedules and costs. I routinely work on multi-million dollar projects, by myself in time frames that would have been unheard of 20 years ago. Back then there would have been a team of people on it and the schedule would have been 2-3 times longer. It seems many people think we just push a few buttons on a computer and things just magically happen. People are wondering why there aren't all sorts of new cars coming to market because there was a demand for them a few months ago or footings already being poured for the Devon Tower. It is just a side effect of our short attention span society. People also don't understand that raw material costs are not the only thing that prices an item, they don't want to pay for R&D, product development/refinement/engineering costs, why do that when I can buy a direct knockoff from China using development paid for by someone else for a fraction of the price. People don't realize that most prices, along with their wages have only gone up because of the constant devaluation of the dollar, costs and wages neither one went up at the rate that they have in the past 30 or so years. Just based of my parents vehicles which were similar models over years you can see this climb.

1966 Ford Galaxie 500 - $3,200
1972 Ford LTD - $4,200
1983 Mercury Grand Marquis LS - $13,000
1997 Mercury Grand Marquis LS - $19,000
2006 Ford Freestyle Limited - $32,000

Those cars didn't just go up because materials were more expensive, they went up because the dollar became worth less and less over the years causing design and production to cost more, all this was fine as long as credit was cheap and easy. I remember when Ferrari came out with the Testarossa in the mid-80's they priced it just under 100,000 because they didn't think people would spend that much on one, dealers were selling them for 40-50,000 more than that, so Ferrari changed that rather quickly. In those days there were only a few "billionaires" and now the top 100 wealthiest list is pretty much all billionaires.

Now Detroit (and the UAW) have made many mistakes when times were good, much of that due to shareholder pressure to keep pumping out profits at the sake of development. The UAW has traditionally been a greedy group that has negotiated contracts that almost anyone in the private sector could only dream of and yet the car companies felt they had to agree to them. Detroit isn't to blame for all of its own problems, but a majority of them. I can see the need in "helping" them out but not "bailing" them out, the gov't helped out Chrysler in the late 70's and that turned out pretty good.

I tend to question the financial bailout more because that has been orchestrated by two of guilty (Paulson-the former head of Goldman Sachs & Bernanke-who believe printing new money is the solution) to help out their friends in their former line of work. If Citibank needs help, let the Sheik that controls them (and is considered the Saudi Warren Buffett) bail them out.

There is no right or wrong answer, I can see positives/negatives in a bailout of anyone. Right now everything going on reminds me of Kevin Bacon during the parade scene of Animal House.

Finally someone else who understands what it really takes to bring anything new to market...with the constant changing of what people want and their needs it is almost impossible to come up with a product that people will want a year from now...here at work everyday things change...In last week's Congressional testimony, Alan Mulally made it very clear that Ford is not seeking any short-term federal funds. Ford is seeking access to an emergency line of credit, only as a safeguard against further deteriorating economic conditions or the bankruptcy of one of our competitors, scenarios which would affect us dramatically. The U.S. economy simply cannot withstand the enormous job loss that the failure of any of the Big Three would bring, both at the automakers and within the industries and businesses that are supported by the domestic auto companies and their employees....

Go ahead and buy the chineese knockoffs....then try to get the normal wear items you need to replace when you need to replace them...

Ok let me explain in simple terms that even an Oklahoman can understand....Which will be hard to do...but here it goes.
...

STEP-BACK; RE-GROUP; AND BE FAIR IF YOU THINK YOU CAN....I know it's hard for Okie's but try.

...



Sheesh I give up on you Okies...
Be sure to put these little gems on your resume. :fighting2

Well, at least we stimulated some interesting discussion!! ;-)

I wonder if those of you shouting "buy American" own any stereo gear, perhaps a DVD recorder with a Japanese name on the front? Or maybe look at the inside of your shoes for the label "Made in China" or something similar?

My overriding point is that we just can't have a world where "failure is not allowed to fail." That's what all these bailouts are causing. Competition is the thing that drives evolution. It's what makes all our cars better in the first place, along with everything else we buy.

Competition exists in everything, including getting chosen for your job and retaining your job, unless you work for one of those places where the laws of nature don't apply.

The sun would still come up if the Big Three went away. The other car companies would take up the slack, and I bet they'd be glad to do it. They build better cars anyway because of their long-standing commitment to quality and the work-ethnic they have. I've owned domestic and foreign cars. There's no doubt in my mind which one is better.

Yes, if the Big Three went under we'd have some serious widespread misery for many, many people! That's exactly what we need in this country! We need hundreds of thousands of people so completely pissed off that we get some changes made in this country to both corporate America and our government. I never said it would be pretty!

And I've got a news flash for you. Hundreds of thousands of people have already seen their dreams destroyed by the market crash, and it wasn't the fault of their stock-picking skills or lack of diversification, it was all the greed, stupidity, and corruption from Wall Street right on down to the brain-dead homeowners who decided they "deserved" to live in a half-million dollar house when they could only afford one for a hundred thousand.

Through all of this, if the car companies go under or file bankruptcy or whatever, you can bet that the greedy CEO's will walk away filthy, stinking rich, without the slightest care about the workers and shareholders they've been cheating all these years.

I watched that happen during the Internet Bubble around 2000. Some of those guys went to prison, but the rest got away with financial murder. Now they're living on some island drawing millions of dollars of interest on their bank accounts. What did shareholders get? Stock worth a tenth of a cent.

Anyway, I need to get some rest. It's hard for this Okie with an I.Q. of 73 to do so much typing. ;-) Later I'll attempt to tie my own shoes!

Would the sun still come up if the Detroit three went away...you bet...but it would come up to a world so full of crime it would not be worth waking up to...

After all this bull**** one thing I wish would happen...all domestic dealerships in Oklahoma would close their doors...the sun will still come up in the rest of the country..

As much as I used to like Oklahoma I'd really like to see the state go into a major depression now...Texas looks so much better.

It really depends on if they file for Chapter 11 or 13 bankruptcy. Honestly I think that GM could come out of a "reorganization" in a much better spot than it is today. On the other hand I think "liquidation" would be a shame.

The company could file bankruptcy and reorganize and still be here tomorrow, but minus its massive debt on capital assets it has been carrying over since the days it first automated, minus the ridiculous union contracts and some number of unproductive workers, and minus about a third of its bloated management structure.

Worth the time to watch. This may be part of the reason that Toyota closed their
new pickup plant in San Antonio to make it a car plant.


If you haven't already seen this, it's worth
watching the durability video. The flex and twist in
the bed of the Tundra is hilarious.

The All-New 2009 Ford F-150 Pickup Truck | Ford Vehicles (http://www.fordvehicles.com/2009f150/)

Glad we're finally showing off Ford product
strengths. Ford marketing up until now has left much to
be desired. It's about time Ford goes head-to-head
against the competition.


I can tell you from three years of driving vehicles on the same track when I worked in road load engineering what you see is real..

It really depends on if they file for Chapter 11 or 13 bankruptcy. Honestly I think that GM could come out of a "reorganization" in a much better spot than it is today. On the other hand I think "liquidation" would be a shame.

The company could file bankruptcy and reorganize and still be here tomorrow, but minus its massive debt on capital assets it has been carrying over since the days it first automated, minus the ridiculous union contracts and some number of unproductive workers, and minus about a third of its bloated management structure.


I agree with every word....one thing is for sure if even one of the Detroit three go under...they all will go under..

One in seven jobs in the US is in some way affected by the 3....What that would mean is if the 3 went under one in seven jobs would be lost...

Ok so if you dont know anybody that would be affected by this I guess it doesn't matter...but here is what you have to look at...

Ok one person loses their job...that could also affect two, three, four or more of their family members...

Would the offshore companies be able to come in and take up the slack...No.


Here is why...If the 3 went under...there would be no dealerships to provide customer support...nobody with a Detroit 3 vehicle would be able to sell it...which would mean they'd have to hang on to it until it was no good...in the meantime they wont be spending money on Toyotas and such because they wont have any money...so it would also hurt Toyota, would hurt the real estate market, would hurt Best Buy, and on and on...

So then awhile down the road their vehicles start falling by the wayside...would they then buy the offshore product...No.

Even though this would be their only option...they still would not have any money for a vehicle...


Ok so this still isnt enough for most people to buy a Detroit vehicle...

If and I know this is way out there...but if the U.S ever for some reason went to war again with Japan...and there are no manufacturing facilities here...do you think the offshore companies will produce what we need to fight the war...No.

They would shut all operations down here and go back home..leaving us sitting ducks...

If even one of the 3 goes under Detroit Deisel would shut down, Catterpillar would shut down...which would have a huge negative affect on the rail lines and trucking lines in the country...which would affect every market in the country...

My reason for all this rambling on?..

Stop and think about it...and it really is simple...so I shouldn't need to say anymore...one in seven jobs would be lost...which would affect every single person in this country in a bad way...

I think if any of them fail it will be GM, Ford and Dodge have a fighting chance of making it.

Actually,I've been watching "Dodge" (uh...that's Chrysler) over the past several years (being the proud former owner of a Dodge - yes, Dodge). Chrysler is probably most in danger of a total meltdown. Daimler bought it several years ago, ran it into the ground, and then unloaded it a couple of years ago at a fraction of what it cost them.

does this idiot not realize that if the detroit three went under the whole country would go under?

If only the senate had known this key fact!

(it's bull**** by the way, we'd be fine. Detroit wouldn't).

If only the senate had known this key fact!

(it's bull**** by the way, we'd be fine. Detroit wouldn't).


Explain how the rest of the country would be fine....but Detroit wouldn't?

Because... the industries estimation of jobs tied to the auto industry are massively overblown.

The demand for cars would remain flat or increase along with economic activity, so while the jobs might move, they'd still be around.

Finally, the U.S. has a lot of industries. We are not dependent on any one of them for our survival. Detroit is, but if you put all of your eggs in one basket, you run that risk.

It is precisely the hysteria mentality that is driving the bailout in the first place. You know what it is in reality? Economic blackmail.

"We produce crap, but if you don't let us continue to produce crap, we'll take the whole economy with us!!!!"

Almost implies a sort of reverse economic terrorism. "We'll make whatever crap we want, and if we had our way about it, we'd force you to buy it!"

The Big 3 in general, and GM in particular, are paying the price for horrendous decisions made partly by management, and partly imposed by unions. I remember 20-plus years ago GM was in desperate need of closing down several ancient engine plants. They were beyond retooling, manufacturing obsolete engines. But the UAW threw its predictable conniption fit, and the plants stayed open, continuing to produce engines that weren't needed in a plant too antiquated to produce them, hemmorhaging and carving in stone the inefficiencies GM knew existed. Now, the issue is being forced to the consumer on two fronts; one, by being offered the products that descend from those decisions, and two, as taxpayers, being now instructed that they'd better bail out these guys on the order of billions or The Whole World Will Collapse!!

I love this further nonsense of faux patriotism labeled as "buy American cars." You know what the chances are that any vehicle you drive today, regardless of whether its plant of final assembly was located on the shores of the US, consists of 100% American-made components? Try zero. If I'm not mistaken, you can be declared a "domestic" car if you have up to 25% foreign-made components.

I make no pretense that allowing the Big 3 to fail, or go through bankruptcy reorganization, won't be painful. But a pure bailout does nothing but reward the very decision making process that has put them there in the first place.

-SoonerDave

I'll bring up my Silverado again.

Top-of-the-line in 1987 and got 14 combined mpg.

2008 Silverado - 17 hwy mpg.

In 21 years, a 3 mpg improvement.

Even better:

If you use E85 in the 2008 the combined mpg is a whopping 13, LESS than it's 1987 ancestor on straight gas.

The Detroit 3 were not asking for a bailout, they were asking for a loan to restructure an industry that they knew was in need of it...Nobody seems to have a problem with AIG or Merrill Lynch...they took the money and gave themselves bonuses and vacations...but people have no problem with that..

Now onto another...years ago when the auto industry here was the place to work...people from all over the south came here to work...now you all have a problem with it...

Yes it would cost millions of jobs..but no that would not affect the economy at all..according to you southerners.

When the GM plant in OKC closed I would have to assume then that nobody cared and nobody felt any hardship...thats good...but when the oil industry goes south...I am also glad that Oklahoma will not feel any negative affects..

I am beginning to think that Oklahoma is like in it's own little fantasy world...kinda like a snowglobe...self sustaining and does not need anyone else...it's either that or your all dumber than a box of rocks...

The Detroit 3 were not asking for a bailout, they were asking for a loan to restructure an industry that they knew was in need of it...Nobody seems to have a problem with AIG or Merrill Lynch...they took the money and gave themselves bonuses and vacations...but people have no problem with that..

AIG, et al. are both in industries which up 'til recently have been extremely profitable. They will be profitable again because their business model (assuming there aren't any more credit default swaps on the books) predictably produces excellent profits.

The Detroit 3 are not profitable. They haven't been in a long time and they won't be for at least several years, even under their own rosy estimates. In my estimation, giving them money right now is throwing bad money after bad money. It's just not a good idea.

In both of these cases, I think the bailouts are bad because for large enough industries, it ruins the risk-reward calculus by suggesting that if you're big enough, you can just run to the government for hep. That's bad policy and it needs to stop right now.


Now onto another...years ago when the auto industry here was the place to work...people from all over the south came here to work...now you all have a problem with it...

Yes it would cost millions of jobs..but no that would not affect the economy at all..according to you southerners.

Yep. They got their plant by playing footsy with the Gaylord establishment, got that taken away by the A.G., and then bailed. They eventually ran a campaign which convinced us to buy their plant off of them and donate it to Tinker. I'm no big fan of GM's business practices.


When the GM plant in OKC closed I would have to assume then that nobody cared and nobody felt any hardship...thats good...but when the oil industry goes south...I am also glad that Oklahoma will not feel any negative affects..

Unlike Detroit, we're expanding into alternative energy, biotech and healthcare. OKC is well positioned if one of our major employers goes south.


I am beginning to think that Oklahoma is like in it's own little fantasy world...kinda like a snowglobe...self sustaining and does not need anyone else...it's either that or your all dumber than a box of rocks...

Detroit would probably more accurately fit the description of being in its 'own little world.'

Unlike Detroit, we're expanding into alternative energy, biotech and healthcare. OKC is well positioned if one of our major employers goes south.



Thank you for just proving to me you know nothing about the auto industry here...you just proved my point..

Lets see...our battery electric and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles we are working on I guess dont fit in with alternative energy..

You just proved what I have been trying to say..

[QUOTE=Midtowner;188807A

In both of these cases, I think the bailouts are bad because for large enough industries, it ruins the risk-reward calculus by suggesting that if you're big enough, you can just run to the government for hep. That's bad policy and it needs to stop right now.
[/QUOTE]


Well then the government needs to stop right now...government is the worst run big buisness out of any of them...government cant even balance their own budget...so who's gonna stop them?

They sure want to control the auto industry but they cant even manage themselves...

My guess...and I may be wrong..

The way you manipulate words and twist facts you are either involved in government or a lawyer...I may be wrong but it fits the way you think.

Thank you for just proving to me you know nothing about the auto industry here...you just proved my point..

Lets see...our battery electric and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles we are working on I guess dont fit in with alternative energy..

You just proved what I have been trying to say..

And if those disappear, the effect on Oklahoma City's economy would be negligible.

Well then the government needs to stop right now...government is the worst run big buisness out of any of them...government cant even balance their own budget...so who's gonna stop them?

Chapter 11 Reorganization is the answer. Let the car companies reorganize their debts and assets, renegotiate their contracts, and make themselves viable again.

It's bad tasting medicine, but it gets you better fast.


They sure want to control the auto industry but they cant even manage themselves...

No argument there.


My guess...and I may be wrong..

The way you manipulate words and twist facts you are either involved in government or a lawyer...I may be wrong but it fits the way you think.

Well, you're awfully close... but no ceegar. If I've twisted facts or manipulated words, feel free to point that out. Until then, your accusation rings a bit hollow.

Curt,

If you're trying to convince me the Big 3 are sincerely working on alternative fuels, please pardon me while I laugh out loud. They are doing a marvelous job of selling what are being called "hybrid" vehicles which, yes, have a battery component, but in terms of truly serving as "alternative fuels", its laughable.

If you'd spend more time not looking at your industry through the glasses that industry has given you, AND stop your idiotic condescension to us "dumb okies," "southerners," or whatever other regional euphemism you choose, you might find reality a bit easier to accept. Right now, it just seems you want to see other people create arguments you've already dismissed, and rationalize your dismissal around your bigoted notions of "stupid southerners."

The fact of the matter is that the Big 3 operate as though it were still 1960, and are still stunned to believe there are alternatives in the marketplace. They don't want to change their plans, methodologies, or tactics because they just know everyone will, eventually gravitate back home. In a sense, they're like a drug addict in denial.

As far as the "bailout" of other industries goes, I'm no fan of bailouts in general except in extreme and specific circumstances. Stupid management isn't on that list.

Midtowner is spot-on in his belief that Chapter 11 is the way to go. Reorganize, rebuild, restructure, and establish a firm foundation on which a constructive, tangible, profitable future can be built - not this sinking sand on the false faith of economic inevitability and indispensibility.

Dave...I work in the alternative fuel industry here..so yes the Detroit 3 are sincerely working on it...they realize it's either that or not be in buisness down the road..

I work in it everyday so I do know my facts...you dont so you dont..

Dave...I work in the alternative fuel industry here..so yes the Detroit 3 are sincerely working on it...they realize it's either that or not be in buisness down the road..

I work in it everyday so I do know my facts...you dont so you dont..

You can say what you want, but the proof is in the pudding...refer to above.

Actually,I've been watching "Dodge" (uh...that's Chrysler) over the past several years (being the proud former owner of a Dodge - yes, Dodge). Chrysler is probably most in danger of a total meltdown. Daimler bought it several years ago, ran it into the ground, and then unloaded it a couple of years ago at a fraction of what it cost them.

I saw on the evening news just now where Chrysler is shutting down all of its plants for 30 days.


I am beginning to think that Oklahoma is like in it's own little fantasy world...kinda like a snowglobe...self sustaining and does not need anyone else...it's either that or your all dumber than a box of rocks...

I'm staring at my box of rocks right now, waiting for it to reveal which of us is dumber.

You can say what you want, but the proof is in the pudding...refer to above.

I can say what I want...your right..unfortunately I cannot show pictures or reveal what we do here to prove it..as I'd like to keep my job.

I have no idea what you do for a living so I dont pretend to know that whatever you do is fact or fiction..and I wont argue with you if you told me what you do...well because I am not there to see it.

However...I do know what I do and I do know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I do know my facts about the alternative energy options the Detroit 3 will be comming out with.

They're a few years too late.

What was Detroit's outlook while Toyota was putting the Prius into production?

It's never to late for good products to come to market, they may behind the Prius but it is not the panacea that some make it out to be. Honda had the Insight Hybrid out at the same time and dropped production of it, other manufacturers experimented with a similar concept and went in other directions. Ford and GM do have some Hybrid vehicles and a former co-worker tried to buy an Escape Hybrid a year ago and there was a very long waiting list for them just like there was for the Prius. They just don't generate as much noise in the media as the Pius.

They're a few years too late.

What was Detroit's outlook while Toyota was putting the Prius into production?

Well they are late...but not too late..

The Prius..once torn down and disected is not really all that good...speaking from personal experience..but you are not going to believe that anyway...

But since like I said a few posts back....I cant show pictures,plans and test results I cannot prove it to you..

So I'll give you what you want...knowing what I know and you have no clue of...

You win...there ya go...

All I can say..and am really allowed to say for now is 2010...even though it's a ways off you will see for yourself...until then I'll give you this one and move on knowing that really you have no clue..

I bow to you ...since you must also work in the same industry and same program I do...and all this time I had no idea.

It's never to late for good products to come to market, they may behind the Prius but it is not the panacea that some make it out to be. Honda had the Insight Hybrid out at the same time and dropped production of it, other manufacturers experimented with a similar concept and went in other directions. Ford and GM do have some Hybrid vehicles and a former co-worker tried to buy an Escape Hybrid a year ago and there was a very long waiting list for them just like there was for the Prius. They just don't generate as much noise in the media as the Pius.


There are Escape Hybrids on the road today with over 250,000 miles on them with the factory original battery pack in them...

There are Escape Hybrids on the road today with over 250,000 miles on them with the factory original battery pack in them...

How much are they to replace when they go bad? I've heard they go bad around 300,000 miles or around 6-10 years and cost around $6-8K to replace. Ouch!

When the GM plant in OKC closed I would have to assume then that nobody cared and nobody felt any hardship...thats good...but when the oil industry goes south...I am also glad that Oklahoma will not feel any negative affects..

I am beginning to think that Oklahoma is like in it's own little fantasy world...kinda like a snowglobe...self sustaining and does not need anyone else...it's either that or your all dumber than a box of rocks...

Curt, you're treating us like we have no experience in this sort of thing, but actually, the oil industry DID go south on us a number of years ago. It was here one day and gone the next. Among other things, it resulted in the first bank failure since the Great Depression. Something that was virtually unthinkable at the time. I refer to that time period as "When the Oil Boom Went Bust". But....we survived. And we diversafied our economy so we're not as vulnerable now.

How much are they to replace when they go bad? I've heard they go bad around 300,000 miles or around 6-10 years and cost around $6-8K to replace. Ouch!

I honestly do not know the replacement cost of a battery pack...I know how much the battery packs I work with cost...but these are prototype units.

Right now I do know the cost is high I just dont know the exact number and dont want to mislead you.

I'm glad the big three are finally getting around to doing some serious research on high-efficiency concepts and may be going production soon. But the problem is, they are only just now getting around to this sort of thing. This is no different than the last time around when the big innovation was robotic automation and lean concepts and the Japanese mopped the floor with us on both. It really isn't just the auto-industry's fault, all of corporate America has become this big, fat, lazy sack of crap. Our corporations have become arrogant, thinking that their large size makes them invincible, thinking only about the short-term price of their stocks and the impact one-time costs would make against them instead of thinking about the long term.

No one person can change that. The fact is I think we are going to have to learn a very hard lesson before a wide-spread mindset change takes place.

Curt,

If you're trying to convince me the Big 3 are sincerely working on alternative fuels, please pardon me while I laugh out loud. They are doing a marvelous job of selling what are being called "hybrid" vehicles which, yes, have a battery component, but in terms of truly serving as "alternative fuels", its laughable.

If you'd spend more time not looking at your industry through the glasses that industry has given you, AND stop your idiotic condescension to us "dumb okies," "southerners," or whatever other regional euphemism you choose, you might find reality a bit easier to accept. Right now, it just seems you want to see other people create arguments you've already dismissed, and rationalize your dismissal around your bigoted notions of "stupid southerners."

The fact of the matter is that the Big 3 operate as though it were still 1960, and are still stunned to believe there are alternatives in the marketplace. They don't want to change their plans, methodologies, or tactics because they just know everyone will, eventually gravitate back home. In a sense, they're like a drug addict in denial.

As far as the "bailout" of other industries goes, I'm no fan of bailouts in general except in extreme and specific circumstances. Stupid management isn't on that list.

Midtowner is spot-on in his belief that Chapter 11 is the way to go. Reorganize, rebuild, restructure, and establish a firm foundation on which a constructive, tangible, profitable future can be built - not this sinking sand on the false faith of economic inevitability and indispensibility.

Just a few of the projects I have worked on and still work on...

Since nobody believes me that Ford is making progress here ya go..all these came out of the shop I work in everyday..

Ford Hydrogen Fusion 999 runs 207.3 MPH at Bonneville - AutoblogGreen (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/08/16/ford-hydrogen-fusion-999-runs-207-3-mph-at-bonneville/)



Ford Edge HySeries - Ford (http://www.ford.com/innovation/environmentally-friendly/hydrogen/ford-edge-hyseries/edge-fuel-cell-hybrid-346p)


Press Release Detail - FORD FUEL CELL FLEET EXCEEDS PERFORMANCE EXPECTATIONS, TEST PROGRAM ... - Ford (http://www.ford.com/about-ford/news-announcements/press-releases/press-releases-detail/pr-ford-fuel-cell-fleet-exceeds-28904)

Ford Escape plug-in prototype shows potential - USATODAY.com (http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2008-01-24-ford-escape-plugin-hybrid_N.htm)

La Coka Nostra-”I’m an American” New Video

La Coka Nostra-”I’m an American” New Video

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